Author Topic: Andres Iniesta  (Read 39609 times)

Offline GG8

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #160 on: February 21, 2014, 03:12:41 pm »
So it wasn't a wind up after all. Interesting.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #161 on: February 21, 2014, 03:14:21 pm »
Right, so here's the thing about Iniesta. When the going is good, he will stand out. When the backs are to the wall, he may as well be sat next to you or I on the couch. There's absolutely no way that either of these two are in the bracket of Ibrahimovic, Gerrard, Suarez, Messi, Ronaldo, Vidal, even Juan Mata. I could go on. All these players are not only excellent within a team, but when their teams backs are to the wall, these guys stand up and change the game and carry their team on their back.

Now, separately, let's take Iniesta's stats. Neither his goals for nor his assists stack up with a world class player. Iniesta has what, a half dozen goals in the last three league seasons, in a team that has routinely bossed Spain, and Europe.

Look at Gerrard, at 33, still contributing goals and assists. *Ibra, goals and assists. Suarez goals and assists. Messi and Ronaldo*, ditto. Juan Mata last season for Chelsea, incredible contribution. Vidal, again, goals and assists.

**I know these are forwards, but assist comparisons are more than fair. Gotze in Germany, contributes more to his team. Francesco Totti, older than the hills, still carries Roma. I've never been Totti's biggest fan, but his contribution cannot be overlooked, been incredible for Roma. Marek Hamsik at Napoli, again, routinely contributes goals and assists, and can also pass a ball five yards.

Iniesta has once reached double figures in goals, in his career. This season, a mammoth 1 goal and 4 assists in La Liga.

Remember, this is a guy that has played with probably the greatest ever club side, over these past few seasons.

And this post sums up exactly why just blanketly using stats without any context or meaning will always be pointless in football.

Iniesta will go down as one of the best of all time easily and i'd put him a class above most of the people you list in that post with only Gerrard, Messi and Ronaldo being his peers.

Saying Iniesta isn't in the same bracket as Mata or Vidal is fucking ridiculous sorry, but it just is.
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Offline Alan B'Stard

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #162 on: February 21, 2014, 03:18:53 pm »
Right, so here's the thing about Iniesta. When the going is good, he will stand out. When the backs are to the wall, he may as well be sat next to you or I on the couch. There's absolutely no way that either of these two are in the bracket of Ibrahimovic, Gerrard, Suarez, Messi, Ronaldo, Vidal, even Juan Mata. I could go on. All these players are not only excellent within a team, but when their teams backs are to the wall, these guys stand up and change the game and carry their team on their back.

Now, separately, let's take Iniesta's stats. Neither his goals for nor his assists stack up with a world class player. Iniesta has what, a half dozen goals in the last three league seasons, in a team that has routinely bossed Spain, and Europe.

Look at Gerrard, at 33, still contributing goals and assists. *Ibra, goals and assists. Suarez goals and assists. Messi and Ronaldo*, ditto. Juan Mata last season for Chelsea, incredible contribution. Vidal, again, goals and assists.

**I know these are forwards, but assist comparisons are more than fair. Gotze in Germany, contributes more to his team. Francesco Totti, older than the hills, still carries Roma. I've never been Totti's biggest fan, but his contribution cannot be overlooked, been incredible for Roma. Marek Hamsik at Napoli, again, routinely contributes goals and assists, and can also pass a ball five yards.

Iniesta has once reached double figures in goals, in his career. This season, a mammoth 1 goal and 4 assists in La Liga.

Remember, this is a guy that has played with probably the greatest ever club side, over these past few seasons.
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« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 05:21:41 pm by FitzLFC80 »
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Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #163 on: February 21, 2014, 03:20:18 pm »
And this post sums up exactly why just blanketly using stats without any context or meaning will always be pointless in football.

Iniesta will go down as one of the best of all time easily and i'd put him a class above most of the people you list in that post with only Gerrard, Messi and Ronaldo being his peers.

Saying Iniesta isn't in the same bracket as Mata or Vidal is fucking ridiculous sorry, but it just is.
Read the start of the second paragraph, it's not just stats.

So it's enough to pass the ball five yards, 50 times a match, and dribble past a few players, to be among the world's elite?

Offline GG8

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #164 on: February 21, 2014, 03:22:35 pm »
Right, so here's the thing about Iniesta. When the going is good, he will stand out. When the backs are to the wall, he may as well be sat next to you or I on the couch.


I would say Iniesta is the exact opposite of this. When the going is good, he makes others stand out. When the chips are down he will stand up and be counted, and drag his team across the finish line.

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #165 on: February 21, 2014, 03:24:15 pm »
I would say Iniesta is the exact opposite of this. When the going is good, he makes others stand out. When the chips are down he will stand up and be counted, and drag his team across the finish line.
Exactly. As I said in the other thread, I thought that was honestly one of the most absurd things I've ever seen on this site. He's the ultimate big game player after Stevie.

Offline GG8

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #166 on: February 21, 2014, 03:30:32 pm »
Exactly. As I said in the other thread, I thought that was honestly one of the most absurd things I've ever seen on this site. He's the ultimate big game player after Stevie.

Indeed. Late winner in a WC final, late winner in a CL semi final, two MOTM performances in WC finals (I think). Definition of a big game player.

Offline Phil M

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #167 on: February 21, 2014, 03:32:30 pm »
All those trophies and awards Iniesta won were just down to luck.

3 x European Cups
6 x La Liga titles
2 x Copa Del Rey
2 x Fifa World Club Cups
2 x UEFA Super Cups
1 x World Cup
2 x European Championships

Ballon D'Or Runner-up, also 3rd & 4th
Uefa Team of the year 2009 to 2012

Plus shit loads of other personal awards such as World Cup all star team, Champions League Best player etc etc.

But don't let all that fool you, he's mediocre really!


 
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #168 on: February 21, 2014, 03:38:12 pm »
But don't let all that fool you, he's mediocre really!

He's no Mata that's for sure.

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #169 on: February 21, 2014, 03:48:08 pm »
All those trophies and awards Iniesta won were just down to luck.

3 x European Cups
6 x La Liga titles
2 x Copa Del Rey
2 x Fifa World Club Cups
2 x UEFA Super Cups
1 x World Cup
2 x European Championships

Ballon D'Or Runner-up, also 3rd & 4th
Uefa Team of the year 2009 to 2012

Plus shit loads of other personal awards such as World Cup all star team, Champions League Best player etc etc.

But don't let all that fool you, he's mediocre really!

At no point have I said it was down to luck. At no point have I said he was a bad player. At no point have I said he was mediocre. My contention is with the perch everyone has him on.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #170 on: February 21, 2014, 03:53:58 pm »
Right, so here's the thing about Iniesta.

Almost 3 years ago, myself and a couple of mates went to Barcelona for the week. As it happened, just before we left, Guardiola announced he was leaving Barcelona at the end of the season. It meant that the game we had picked was to be one of Guardiola's last in charge. It's a real source of pride that I managed to watch that wonderful team live before the great man left his post.

In that match, Messi scored a hattrick, but you know what? He wasn't even close to being the best player on the pitch that night. It was Iniesta. Not even marginally either, because this guy was head and shoulders above everyone else on the pitch. To watch someone like Iniesta on TV is amazing still, but to see him live is something quite breathtaking. To see the sheer genius of the man up close is genuinely something I'll carry to the grave with me. Messi was happy to sit on the shoulder of the last defender for most of the match, knowing his chances would come. Iniesta on the other hand, was at the heart of everything. Working hard, keeping the ball, dribbling with it, moving to the wing, dropping deep - you name it, and Iniesta invariably did it.

Iniesta is a player that stats can't do justice to. To judge a player like Iniesta by stats alone means you fundamentally don't understand the essence of what makes Iniesta, Iniesta. You can't quantify such genius, and such brilliance. He's one of the most selfless players I think I've ever seen. He's the link between Xavi and Messi. His role is absolutely crucial. Take Fabregas for example. When he was signed back from Arsenal, it was taken as read that he would slot right in with relative ease, but it didn't turn out that way. Fabregas has a much better assist and goal record than Iniesta in recent years, but he's not even in the same league as a footballer. Neither is Mata for that matter.

Those who don't appreciate players like Iniesta will never properly understand the game.
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Offline King_doggerel

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #171 on: February 21, 2014, 03:56:27 pm »
In other words AWWYC is comparing Iniesta to the uber hot supermodel lap dancer who will fondle and tease you all night. However, she will not allow you to touch or penetrate her, however much you try.

You go home with your cock hard thinking what could have been.

Right?

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #172 on: February 21, 2014, 03:57:53 pm »


Those who don't appreciate players like Iniesta will never properly understand the game.
Pretentious nonsense.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #173 on: February 21, 2014, 03:59:38 pm »
Josef Bican is the greatest striker of all time.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline TheGOAT

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #174 on: February 21, 2014, 04:02:31 pm »
Iniesta is godly, mega bollocks aswell. I still want to embrace him for that stoppage time belter v Chelsea.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #175 on: February 21, 2014, 04:02:54 pm »
Pretentious nonsense.
Better to be pretentious and right, than idiotic and wrong.

You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.

Offline Phil M

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #176 on: February 21, 2014, 04:05:10 pm »
At no point have I said it was down to luck. At no point have I said he was a bad player. At no point have I said he was mediocre. My contention is with the perch everyone has him on.


Obviously mediocre was being sarcastic but how can you expect to be taken seriously when you're claiming one of the worlds most consistent world class playmakers who has been at the top of his game for the last decade (and has the trophies and awards to prove it) is anything other than exceptional?
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #177 on: February 21, 2014, 04:06:58 pm »
At no point have I said it was down to luck. At no point have I said he was a bad player. At no point have I said he was mediocre. My contention is with the perch everyone has him on.


He deserves to be on that perch. The guy is a joy to watch and him and Xavi are the reasons that Spain and Barcelona are the teams they are.

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #178 on: February 21, 2014, 04:13:44 pm »
In other words AWWYC is comparing Iniesta to the uber hot supermodel lap dancer who will fondle and tease you all night. However, she will not allow you to touch or penetrate her, however much you try.

You go home with your cock hard thinking what could have been.

Right?

Well, at least you've actually read and understood my general point, so I thank you for that. I'm sure you disagree, and think I'm talking bollocks, but at least you see where I'm coming from.


Anyway, it's Friday, I'm not getting bogged down any further into a school yard debate about who could beat the other up. I'm certainly not expecting to convert anyone, just giving my six pence on Iniesta.

Offline Samie

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #179 on: February 21, 2014, 04:15:32 pm »
Since when have  you ever had money in you pockets AWWYC?.

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #180 on: February 21, 2014, 04:16:51 pm »
Since when have  you ever had money in you pockets AWWYC?.
That six pence was a loan. I'll pay it back when Popcorn wins the draft  ;)

Offline BazC

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #181 on: February 21, 2014, 04:36:32 pm »
Right, so here's the thing about Iniesta. When the going is good, he will stand out. When the backs are to the wall, he may as well be sat next to you or I on the couch. There's absolutely no way that either of these two are in the bracket of Ibrahimovic, Gerrard, Suarez, Messi, Ronaldo, Vidal, even Juan Mata. I could go on. All these players are not only excellent within a team, but when their teams backs are to the wall, these guys stand up and change the game and carry their team on their back.

Now, separately, let's take Iniesta's stats. Neither his goals for nor his assists stack up with a world class player. Iniesta has what, a half dozen goals in the last three league seasons, in a team that has routinely bossed Spain, and Europe.

Look at Gerrard, at 33, still contributing goals and assists. *Ibra, goals and assists. Suarez goals and assists. Messi and Ronaldo*, ditto. Juan Mata last season for Chelsea, incredible contribution. Vidal, again, goals and assists.

**I know these are forwards, but assist comparisons are more than fair. Gotze in Germany, contributes more to his team. Francesco Totti, older than the hills, still carries Roma. I've never been Totti's biggest fan, but his contribution cannot be overlooked, been incredible for Roma. Marek Hamsik at Napoli, again, routinely contributes goals and assists, and can also pass a ball five yards.

Iniesta has once reached double figures in goals, in his career. This season, a mammoth 1 goal and 4 assists in La Liga.

Remember, this is a guy that has played with probably the greatest ever club side, over these past few seasons.

I can think of 2 goals he's scored in backs against the wall situations, 1 of those was probably the most important goal ever for his nation, the other was a massively important one for his club in a CL semi against the 10ft thick steel reinforced concrete wall of Chelsea.

I mean fuck. This lad's one of the best players ever. If you can't enjoy the way he plays without having to look at goals and assists, then you're really missing out. Especially if you've ever played the game, sometimes just watching these players do things in match situations is mind blowing. For example that "cushion on the outside of the foot flick turn thingy" Suarez did against Fulham in the last game. It led to no goal or assist. But if you've ever played the game, things like that can blow your mind in the same way as a goal or an assist sometimes. That's why I love watching Suarez and Coutinho, and why Alonso's still my favourite Liverpool player ever. They do/did things which amateur (and even most professionals) couldn't even dream of. And it's not pointless skill I might add - the flick example against Fulham did lead to Suarez getting past his man and progress towards goal. In one little flick of his foot and a turn he was away.

Iniesta does things that seem impossible on the ball all the time. The quick turns, through balls, vision, ingenuity, skill - it's pure and utter class. And won't always show up in direct stats.
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Offline Phil M

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #182 on: February 21, 2014, 04:42:22 pm »
Just a big fishing trip, he's clearly bored. No one else would be arsed going to that much effort.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline King_doggerel

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #183 on: February 21, 2014, 04:51:19 pm »
He did fuck all against Bayern though...

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #184 on: February 21, 2014, 05:12:15 pm »
Has done fuck all to stop United slide out of the CL places, to be fair. Was supposed to Moyes' savior, and look that what that got him!

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #185 on: February 21, 2014, 05:13:48 pm »
He did fuck all against Bayern though...

As did the other 10 Barce players if we're honest!
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Offline koolkamal

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #186 on: February 21, 2014, 05:24:26 pm »
Better to be pretentious and right, than idiotic and wrong.



Hallelujah :)

Iniesta is phenomenal. It's pointless arguing with those who can't see it.
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #187 on: February 21, 2014, 05:27:11 pm »
He's f'kin sh!t that Iniesta!



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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #188 on: February 21, 2014, 05:29:44 pm »
We already have shit in the country, and the game of Liverpool fills life with joy. Thanks

Offline Chakan

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #189 on: February 21, 2014, 05:33:17 pm »
Same argument can be applied to Lahm really, doesn't score enough goals or get enough assists for me. He's shite.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #190 on: February 21, 2014, 05:37:16 pm »
Zidane scored over 10 league goals just once in 18 professional league seasons.

But then, he was no Kevin Nolan.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #191 on: February 21, 2014, 05:38:00 pm »
Right, so here's the thing about Iniesta.

Almost 3 years ago, myself and a couple of mates went to Barcelona for the week. As it happened, just before we left, Guardiola announced he was leaving Barcelona at the end of the season. It meant that the game we had picked was to be one of Guardiola's last in charge. It's a real source of pride that I managed to watch that wonderful team live before the great man left his post.

In that match, Messi scored a hattrick, but you know what? He wasn't even close to being the best player on the pitch that night. It was Iniesta. Not even marginally either, because this guy was head and shoulders above everyone else on the pitch. To watch someone like Iniesta on TV is amazing still, but to see him live is something quite breathtaking. To see the sheer genius of the man up close is genuinely something I'll carry to the grave with me. Messi was happy to sit on the shoulder of the last defender for most of the match, knowing his chances would come. Iniesta on the other hand, was at the heart of everything. Working hard, keeping the ball, dribbling with it, moving to the wing, dropping deep - you name it, and Iniesta invariably did it.

Iniesta is a player that stats can't do justice to. To judge a player like Iniesta by stats alone means you fundamentally don't understand the essence of what makes Iniesta, Iniesta. You can't quantify such genius, and such brilliance. He's one of the most selfless players I think I've ever seen. He's the link between Xavi and Messi. His role is absolutely crucial. Take Fabregas for example. When he was signed back from Arsenal, it was taken as read that he would slot right in with relative ease, but it didn't turn out that way. Fabregas has a much better assist and goal record than Iniesta in recent years, but he's not even in the same league as a footballer. Neither is Mata for that matter.

Those who don't appreciate players like Iniesta will never properly understand the game.


great post
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #192 on: February 21, 2014, 05:38:26 pm »
Zidane scored over 10 league goals just once in 18 professional league seasons.

But then, he was no Kevin Nolan.

Smoked too, just a poor mans Joe Cole really.

Then there's Xabi Alonso, utter turbo gash player that, never even scored close to 10 goals a season.

Offline Mamadou

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #193 on: February 21, 2014, 05:40:16 pm »
Zidane scored over 10 league goals just once in 18 professional league seasons.

But then, he was no Kevin Nolan.

for me Iniesta is better than Zidane
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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #194 on: February 21, 2014, 06:05:01 pm »
What I can guarantee is that put Xavi and Iniesta, even in current form, against these hyped midfielders like Vidal etc., and Xavi-Iniesta will dominate them. Big time. It will be 5 yards sideway passes mostly yes ;D but they will dominate the fuck out of them.

I am thinking that these days box-to-box players are again gaining some popularity. They have good scoring stats, so people think, on paper, that they will continue doing just that vs everybody. But Xavi and Iniesta take the ball away and the other, supposedly better players are reduced to watching the ball move around the pitch. Helplessly.

Iniesta on top form is world's third best player. He is one of the greats in history of football.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #195 on: February 21, 2014, 06:41:03 pm »


:wellin

I really don't get it when people boil down players to simply their stats. They're important in context, in terms of what a player's role is within his team but then comparing various players simply in terms of their stats without anything else is pointless.

Anyway, Iniesta. I don't agree with virtually anything AWWYC's written there (for one, it's heavily reliant on stats without much context (which in itself causes problems) as if watching the player isn't that important) and a lot of the joy for me is, like you say, just watching him. It's the kind of thing you watch football for, the way he uses the ball, his movement, his appreciation of his team mates. That's not to say he's not productive either - he scored the winning goal in the World Cup final for one - and he's playing in a team which has been the best over the past 6 years or so, winning multiple Champions League and league titles, as well as multiple international honours. And he's been a regular throughout that period. For the comment about he's not done enough whilst playing for one of the best club sides in the world, it can easily be replaced by he's one of the reasons why they're one the best club sides in the world.

And football's subjective anyway, that's part of the thrill of it. It does something to you when you watch players like Iniesta, things that can't be replicated by looking at numbers on a page. If someone wants to think that and doesn't see what Iniesta does, let them. For me, if pushed he's probably my favourite (non Liverpool) player playing right now. An absolute joy.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 06:42:54 pm by Hazell »
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #196 on: February 21, 2014, 06:43:14 pm »
He seems and absolute gent as well.

Offline Hoenheim

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #197 on: February 21, 2014, 06:49:20 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TbT3m4w4AL0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/TbT3m4w4AL0</a>

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Offline Alonso

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #198 on: February 21, 2014, 06:51:47 pm »
I'm curious as to whether AWWWYC has ever actually watched a Barca game outside of matches vs English sides in the Champions League?


Offline robgreen91

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #199 on: February 21, 2014, 07:18:18 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TbT3m4w4AL0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/TbT3m4w4AL0</a>

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 :o

he's no Coutinho tho!  8)