Author Topic: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical  (Read 78894 times)

Offline Not that Gareth

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #120 on: March 8, 2018, 05:28:21 pm »
Back to thread topic, one theory floating is that Skripal was not retired and may have been involved in the dossier: https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-poisoned-russian-spy-may-have-worked-on-trump-dossier

It would provide a motive but I still think this is high speculation.  I'll wait on Mueller

Offline SP

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #121 on: March 8, 2018, 05:55:56 pm »
Notwithstanding all that, I don't see why *we* seek to constantly demonise and create an enemy of Russia & Putin. Much of the US's vilification of Russia seems contrived, as if they're trying to create that bogeyman (Trump';s position is baffling, but even as President he cannot stop the machinations of the American 'deep state') the UK, of course, slavishly follow's the US's foreign policy diktats.

Besides the assassinations on British soil, the flagrant disregard for human rights, invading sovereign state, state sponsored doping programmes, the general kleptocracy, the russian interference online in the Brexit vote - including the Frottage / Assange links, the nuclear arsenal currently targeted at us.

It is a corrupt dictatorship run by a ex-KGB agent with a Napoleon complex. What is not to love?

Offline drmick

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #122 on: March 8, 2018, 06:32:37 pm »
This thread has led me to conclude that Russia is an undefeatable force.

Militarily, economically, intelligentally......

Not as good at sports though!

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #123 on: March 8, 2018, 07:03:00 pm »
This thread has led me to conclude that Russia is an undefeatable force.

Militarily, economically, intelligentally......

Not as good at sports though!

And they supply us and the rest of Western Europe with gas.

So not only are we paying to modernise their armed forces if they decide to invade any time between December and March all they need to do is turn off the gas tap and we'd all surrender.

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #124 on: March 8, 2018, 07:25:11 pm »
And they supply us and the rest of Western Europe with gas.

So not only are we paying to modernise their armed forces if they decide to invade any time between December and March all they need to do is turn off the gas tap and we'd all surrender.

We have been prepared for that, bycutting benefits and pensions in real terms to get them used to not having heating. Come the Putin putsch, they won't notice the difference.

Offline drmick

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #125 on: March 8, 2018, 07:45:51 pm »
Can we join Russia when we leave the EU? How much does a litre of petrol cost over there anyway?

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #126 on: March 8, 2018, 08:53:03 pm »
George Galloway suggesting that this is a US false flag...

Idiot
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #127 on: March 8, 2018, 08:59:17 pm »
George Galloway suggesting that this is a US false flag...

Idiot

He's protecting his TV show on Sputnik.
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #128 on: March 8, 2018, 10:30:51 pm »
Back to thread topic, one theory floating is that Skripal was not retired and may have been involved in the dossier: https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-poisoned-russian-spy-may-have-worked-on-trump-dossier

It would provide a motive but I still think this is high speculation.  I'll wait on Mueller

Luke Harding@lukeharding1968
The @Telegraph story claiming a link between Sergei #Skripal and Christopher Steele's company Orbis is wrong, I understand. Skripal had nothing to do with Trump dossier. Nor did unnamed "security consultant" ever work for Orbis

Offline Not that Gareth

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #129 on: March 8, 2018, 11:27:45 pm »
Luke Harding@lukeharding1968
The @Telegraph story claiming a link between Sergei #Skripal and Christopher Steele's company Orbis is wrong, I understand. Skripal had nothing to do with Trump dossier. Nor did unnamed "security consultant" ever work for Orbis
Yeah, the dossier is a far to opaque reason to do it. I'm of the opinion the killer fucked up. This whole idea of send a message is a bit of a misnomer. The people who operate in these channels don't need a headline, they would hear regardless. Sure it was a message but the headlines are an inconvenience.

You know what? There's a whole lot shit I will never understand or perhaps dont want to, I'll add this to the pile!

Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #130 on: March 9, 2018, 06:10:58 am »
I think people tend to "demonise Russia" because their soldiers are propping up a bloody dictator and their planes are dropping bombs on civilians, even during a ceasefire. Then there's the annexation at gun-point of Crimea and the constant destabilisation of sovereign nations like Ukraine by sending in well-equipped regiments of Russian mercenaries and paramilitaries. Then, when they send their agents to commit murder on British soil, that tends to annoy people as well.

I think Pat Buchanan has just provided a response for you

http://buchanan.org/blog/time-get-russophobia-128867

« Last Edit: March 9, 2018, 06:22:27 am by RedBootsTommySmith »
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #131 on: March 9, 2018, 07:42:21 am »
I think Pat Buchanan has just provided a response for you

http://buchanan.org/blog/time-get-russophobia-128867



Pat Buchanan?  Really? That right wing nut?

Of course he’s pro-Putin.
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #132 on: March 9, 2018, 10:33:33 am »
Besides the assassinations on British soil, the flagrant disregard for human rights, invading sovereign state, state sponsored doping programmes, the general kleptocracy, the russian interference online in the Brexit vote - including the Frottage / Assange links, the nuclear arsenal currently targeted at us.

It is a corrupt dictatorship run by a ex-KGB agent with a Napoleon complex. What is not to love?


Yes, and we plebs are right to criticise Putin & Russia. I was referring to the stances taken by the US and UK governments, who seem in a rush to restore the Cold War attitude. When you consider that both governments maintain more than cordial relationships with China & Saudi Arabia (who have comparably awful records on human rights, and play an albeit less blatant role in the subversion of sovereign nations - although to the thousands of Yemenis murdered by Saudi air strikes the action is blatant enough). Our supposed biggest ally, the USA, has as much blood on its hands through its military (both overt & covert) interference in other countries, from Asia to South America to Africa to Europe.

I'd much prefer Putin be out on his arse and Russia a socially-liberal, stable democracy with no ambition to extend foreign policy influence. But that's not going to happen, so I'd rather not have the world's two most powerful military & nuclear powers at each other's throats. I lived through the 80's Cold War and it scared the pants off me (I was a member of CND for a time). I don't want to see a return to that and consider the current approach by the US and UK to be ideology-driven.

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #133 on: March 9, 2018, 02:33:04 pm »

I'd much prefer Putin be out on his arse and Russia a socially-liberal, stable democracy with no ambition to extend foreign policy influence. But that's not going to happen, so I'd rather not have the world's two most powerful military & nuclear powers at each other's throats. I lived through the 80's Cold War and it scared the pants off me (I was a member of CND for a time). I don't want to see a return to that and consider the current approach by the US and UK to be ideology-driven.


What's the current approach by the US? Or are you referring to the 80s and 90s as current?

And what's the ideology, do you think?

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #134 on: March 9, 2018, 04:30:07 pm »
What's the current approach by the US? Or are you referring to the 80s and 90s as current?

I appreciate you're alluding to the complicity between Trump/his 'camp' and Russia, but there have been numerous pronouncements from the US since Trump's election condemning Russian actions on a wide range of issues and hyping the 'Russian threat', whilst ramping a new arms race, coming from senior military commanders and US government/military departments. The sort of bellicose, chest-thumping rhetoric that seeks to whip-up enmity. On this matter, Trump is being sidelined.



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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #135 on: March 9, 2018, 05:58:41 pm »
On a side note, those Hazard suits are funny as fuck!!!

Offline SP

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #136 on: March 9, 2018, 06:28:00 pm »
I appreciate you're alluding to the complicity between Trump/his 'camp' and Russia, but there have been numerous pronouncements from the US since Trump's election condemning Russian actions on a wide range of issues and hyping the 'Russian threat', whilst ramping a new arms race, coming from senior military commanders and US government/military departments. The sort of bellicose, chest-thumping rhetoric that seeks to whip-up enmity. On this matter, Trump is being sidelined.

Those sanctions that Trump signed into law are really starting to bite.

Offline B0151?

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #137 on: March 11, 2018, 01:10:20 pm »
I appreciate you're alluding to the complicity between Trump/his 'camp' and Russia, but there have been numerous pronouncements from the US since Trump's election condemning Russian actions on a wide range of issues and hyping the 'Russian threat', whilst ramping a new arms race, coming from senior military commanders and US government/military departments. The sort of bellicose, chest-thumping rhetoric that seeks to whip-up enmity. On this matter, Trump is being sidelined.

Let's be clear no-one does more to hype the Russia threat than Russia themselves. They are NK like in their desire to thump their chest as hard as possible, distract the plight of their own people and make themselves more important than they are.

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #138 on: March 12, 2018, 05:13:17 pm »
Theresa May addressing parliament about this now.

- more extensive measures are being considered (against Russia )

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #139 on: March 12, 2018, 05:14:49 pm »
Gordon Corera @gordoncorera

Breaking - Prime Minister: Sergei Skripal poisoned by military grade nerve agent known to be developed by Russia - known as Novichok
PM - Foreign Secretary Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has summoned Russian Ambassador to explain the use of “military-grade” chemical weapons on British soil.


I'd say the Ambassador is bricking himself. Johnson will explain the origins of wiff-waff to him for an hour, so he'll probably lose the will to live.
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #140 on: March 12, 2018, 05:19:12 pm »
Gordon Corera @gordoncorera

Breaking - Prime Minister: Sergei Skripal poisoned by military grade nerve agent known to be developed by Russia - known as Novichok
PM - Foreign Secretary Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has summoned Russian Ambassador to explain the use of “military-grade” chemical weapons on British soil.


I'd say the Ambassador is bricking himself. Johnson will explain the origins of wiff-waff to him for an hour, so he'll probably lose the will to live.

Yep. Times like these that choosing an utter imbecile to be foreign secretary doesn't seem like the smartest choice.

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #141 on: March 12, 2018, 05:21:50 pm »
Yep. Times like these that choosing an utter imbecile to be foreign secretary doesn't seem like the smartest choice.

But he speaks Latin in a toff like manner.

That'll show the foreign Johhnies.

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #142 on: March 12, 2018, 05:30:18 pm »
Gordon Corera @gordoncorera

Breaking - Prime Minister: Sergei Skripal poisoned by military grade nerve agent known to be developed by Russia - known as Novichok
PM - Foreign Secretary Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has summoned Russian Ambassador to explain the use of “military-grade” chemical weapons on British soil.


I'd say the Ambassador is bricking himself. Johnson will explain the origins of wiff-waff to him for an hour, so he'll probably lose the will to live.

Irrespective of who is delivering the message that will take some explaining. Not that the Russians will try. They will deny all knowledge and involvement.

It is an outrage that they were prepared to do this on british streets. The number of people who could have been very seriously injured or killed is shocking. I just cannot believe that even the Russians would do this using such a weapon. The problem is that there is very little we can do about it, or at least anything that will particularly bother Putin. Shocking, truly shocking.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #143 on: March 12, 2018, 05:46:25 pm »
Holy fuck, they used Novichok....


Frankly we’re lucky half the town wasn’t killed.  This is even more deadly than the infamous VX nerve agent.

Now, manufacturing such an agent is immensely dangerous. This could only be attempted by a sophisticated lab, if it weren’t, they would all be dead by the time it was made.

It is so ridiculously lethal that there is no way it could just ‘go missing’...  It would be kept under the highest security ..
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #144 on: March 12, 2018, 05:56:17 pm »
Gordon Corera @gordoncorera

Breaking - Prime Minister: Sergei Skripal poisoned by military grade nerve agent known to be developed by Russia - known as Novichok
PM - Foreign Secretary Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has summoned Russian Ambassador to explain the use of “military-grade” chemical weapons on British soil.


I'd say the Ambassador is bricking himself. Johnson will explain the origins of wiff-waff to him for an hour, so he'll probably lose the will to live.

At moments like this we need a Foreign Secretary like Ernest Bevin - hard-talking, principled, gruff, working-class socialist. Instead we have some frivolous upper-class daisy, for whom nothing is serious.
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #145 on: March 12, 2018, 06:05:39 pm »
Holy fuck, they used Novichok....


Frankly we’re lucky half the town wasn’t killed.  This is even more deadly than the infamous VX nerve agent.

Now, manufacturing such an agent is immensely dangerous. This could only be attempted by a sophisticated lab, if it weren’t, they would all be dead by the time it was made.

It is so ridiculously lethal that there is no way it could just ‘go missing’...  It would be kept under the highest security ..

How the hell have they survived that?

Its surely difficult to handle and administer if it is that deadly- again it points to it not only being a state sponsored act but it must have been by a highly trained operative.

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #146 on: March 12, 2018, 06:09:22 pm »
How would this have been used ?

Assume it’s a liquid.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 06:11:32 pm by Nick110581 »
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #147 on: March 12, 2018, 06:31:57 pm »
This is very interesting stuff. Why would the Russians have the motivation to conduct this attack?

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #148 on: March 12, 2018, 06:36:24 pm »
This is very interesting stuff. Why would the Russians have the motivation to conduct this attack?

It's purely for home consumption. To give a psychological boost to a downtrodden, miserable, depressed population mired in poverty. Putin can't give what they really want - ie a nice life - so he gives them this instead.
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #149 on: March 12, 2018, 06:42:52 pm »
Holy fuck, they used Novichok....


Frankly we’re lucky half the town wasn’t killed.  This is even more deadly than the infamous VX nerve agent.

Now, manufacturing such an agent is immensely dangerous. This could only be attempted by a sophisticated lab, if it weren’t, they would all be dead by the time it was made.

It is so ridiculously lethal that there is no way it could just ‘go missing’...  It would be kept under the highest security ..

It is astonishing that more people haven't been affected and that no one has died and hopefully it will remain that way.

A foreign state should not get away with this...but they will.

Agree with other sentiments about our current foreign secretary. A firm and serious individual is what is required at times like this. Countries like Russia understand strength hence them doing it in the first place because this will go down well with many there which is astonishing in itself
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #150 on: March 12, 2018, 06:54:32 pm »
Its surely difficult to handle and administer if it is that deadly- again it points to it not only being a state sponsored act but it must have been by a highly trained operative.

Several of the novichok chemicals are so-called binary weapons - with two non-toxic precursor chemicals that can be mixed prior to use. This makes them safer to transport and handle.

It's an ultra-fine powder.
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #151 on: March 12, 2018, 06:56:16 pm »
This is very interesting stuff. Why would the Russians have the motivation to conduct this attack?
Really??
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #152 on: March 12, 2018, 06:56:45 pm »
It is astonishing that more people haven't been affected and that no one has died and hopefully it will remain that way.

A foreign state should not get away with this...but they will.

Agree with other sentiments about our current foreign secretary. A firm and serious individual is what is required at times like this. Countries like Russia understand strength hence them doing it in the first place because this will go down well with many there which is astonishing in itself

It's at times like this that you realise what a mugwump Johnson is.

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #153 on: March 12, 2018, 08:06:56 pm »
It's purely for home consumption. To give a psychological boost to a downtrodden, miserable, depressed population mired in poverty. Putin can't give what they really want - ie a nice life - so he gives them this instead.

Does that theory still apply if/when Russia denies responsibility?

And why Skripal? Why the UK (which, despite the shambolic government, is still militarily powerful)?
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #154 on: March 12, 2018, 08:14:51 pm »
Does that theory still apply if/when Russia denies responsibility?

And why Skripal? Why the UK (which, despite the shambolic government, is still militarily powerful)?

I think the size of the military is irrelevant. No country on earth would take military action against Russia in retaliation to this, and Russia know that.

Offline CheshireDave

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #155 on: March 12, 2018, 08:17:41 pm »

And why Skripal? Why the UK (which, despite the shambolic government, is still militarily powerful)?

He was a double agent in the 90s wasn't he?
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #156 on: March 12, 2018, 08:21:20 pm »
And why Skripal?

Skripal was a double agent. Read the news! 
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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #157 on: March 12, 2018, 08:23:06 pm »
He was a double agent in the 90s wasn't he?

But there've been a huge number of such double agents over the years, some who've caused much greater damage to Moscow than Skripal, living in many countries easier to get toxins and agents to, with less vigourous security services.

There's the notion that doing it in the UK is a big "if we can hit there, we can hit anywhere" I guess

And why use a toxin that is so easily traceable back to Russia?

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #158 on: March 12, 2018, 08:23:33 pm »
It's purely for home consumption. To give a psychological boost to a downtrodden, miserable, depressed population mired in poverty. Putin can't give what they really want - ie a nice life - so he gives them this instead.

I'd be very surprised if the "downtrodden, miserable, depressed population" of Russia is even aware of this case. Given that they're denying responsibility, I doubt they're bragging about it on their state-run media.

Would you say May's response is purely for home consumption?

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Re: Litvinenko Has Died... Skripal and Daughter Critical
« Reply #159 on: March 12, 2018, 08:25:00 pm »
And why use a toxin that is so easily traceable back to Russia?

They want everyone to know it was them, without admitting it. It's good PR ahead of the elections.