Author Topic: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table  (Read 19933 times)

Offline Hinesy

  • RAWK Editor. Giving it BAFTA’s. 57'sy. Caramel log dealer and comma chameleon. Tory Totty Tonguer
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,311
LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« on: September 21, 2015, 01:44:54 pm »
In the post match interview, Brendan said his job was all about leadership.
I used to have a boss who surrounded himself with inexperienced idiots so that he maintained control and looked better than everyone else. Sadly that way is the sinking ship.
How often have we suggested that a certain Mr G. Mac. get on the pitch and play instead of sitting at the sidelines looking like a Right Said Fred tribute act who've won a day out at Anfield?

This is the frustration and continuing worry for me with our current team. Suarez's season masked the deficiencies of a tiring Gerrard, and weakened defence, but it sort of came true last season. And we blamed it (partly fairly) on Sturridge being injured and Mario being rubbish. But now Gerrard has gone, where's the leadership on the field? Did Gerrard's presence stifle any other wise head from piping up, or even any player needing to take a decision. It was made for you as it were.

Now Henderson is injured, and I doubt his quick reaction decision making skills, but blimey if we're depending on him to lead us, then its leading us nowhere fast. Milner perhaps? Not on yesterdays' form.

Once we'd scored we didn't really know what to do except try and do that again. Not a bad tactic. But depending on Coutinho for inspiration isn't always going to work. Too many independently minded players trying to shoot. Granted Rodgers had said take more risks, but once we went 1-1, it was inevitable in some ways.

The positives again were Ings and the formation with Sturridge and Benteke, admittedly it was Norwich, but we looked dangerous on the attack. However there is really no-one in the middle of the park, watching, playmaking, judging the match, and whilst Lucas played very well but that isn't his game.

This result brought us no nearer solving the problems in any respect. At least we're above Chelsea.
Yep.

Offline Hinesy

  • RAWK Editor. Giving it BAFTA’s. 57'sy. Caramel log dealer and comma chameleon. Tory Totty Tonguer
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,311
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2015, 05:59:31 pm »
Round table up
Yep.

Offline Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,071
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2015, 06:08:31 pm »
I used to have a boss who surrounded himself with inexperienced idiots so that he maintained control and looked better than everyone else. Sadly that way is the sinking ship.

That's the Rodgers regime in a nutshell though. We were never going to get Meulensteen, Pako (CL winning coaches) or anyone who's achieved more than Rodgers to replace Marsh and Pascoe (who Rodgers originally appointed). It sums up the FSG regime as well who are happy to have their own lackies in Ian Ayre and Mike Gordon who in turn are happy to have their own in their dugout while they all try and justify their positions at the football club. Mediocre staff in key positions = mediocre football club. Should we be surprised the club is lacking any direction and leadership the same way the team is out on the pitch? Nope.

Good individual quality yesterday from players like Moreno and Sakho, were were overdue a return to the side in the league, but the team cohesion is non-existent. No guile in midfield (Milner shouldn''t be a CM, Lucas should ave been upgraded in the summer).
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,373
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 06:31:05 pm »
Depressed, frustrated, pissed off with the side and the manager and generally desperate for something to turn it around. Others will analyse the tactics better but thats all i can add to this debate. Feels like there is very little hope to hold onto for this league season.

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,835
  • Pass and move!
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 07:06:09 pm »
Despite the crap result I though there were some good performances;  Lucas,  Sakho,  Ings and Moreno all played very well.  But!  where's the 'team'?  Where is the system,  is there even a system?  After more than 3 years this team has no identity,  it seems like 10 outfield players all doing their best,  with mixed results.  Milner was dreadful and if Rodgers has indeed committed to making him the mianstay of our central midfield things will continue in much the same vein as last season.   Has Rodgers learnt nothing?  We seem to be relying on moments of individual magic with no discernable method of creating anything resembling a situation where the sum of the team is better than its parts.

I keep reading that Norwich are relegation fodder.  they have the same points and better goal difference than we have. 

Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline surfer. Fuck you generator.

  • surgood. As good as Suarez but CBA to play for us. Takes it on the chin and never holds a pointless grudge for several months.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,216
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 07:16:36 pm »
Depressed, frustrated, pissed off with the side and the manager and generally desperate for something to turn it around. Others will analyse the tactics better but thats all i can add to this debate. Feels like there is very little hope to hold onto for this league season.

There is always hope when there is quality to work with. I think the first team has it, you've said as much plenty of times. The issue is timing of course, plenty on here will say sack him now while there's still time to salvage the season, who knows with the owners, maybe their minds aren't quite as made up, for now.

Offline johnsmithlfc

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,399
  • You may say I'm a Dreamer
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 07:25:45 pm »
Much improved performance and fight, tempo was better and there seemed more desire.
But sadly we're just so low and playing so poorly generally that we couldn't get anything from the game.
We had a rusty Sturridge, who on another day would have scored a brace, a less than creative midfield and let's face it... we're in a rut.

Sakho, Moreno and Ings were all very good and need to be playing regularly but we have a lot of players to fit in and sadly Rodgers doesn't seem to know how or who to play.

We don't really have any players now who grab the game or lift the players.... so when things aren't going well and Coutinho isn't scoring a worldie, who else is there?

We have Clyne and Moreno who can whip balls in and Milner would be better out wide too, not good enough to play a creative or holding central midfield role and Benteke who is great in the air, but we don't really make the most of it.

We seem to lack an identity and/or clear way of playing/style.

I think Rodgers will probably get a little more time to be honest but I'm not sure if we'll get anywhere if he doesn't know how he wants to play... or says he wants to play one way and then buys players who don't fit the style.
He says one thing and does the opposite.

Honestly baffling some of this stuff.


Anyway....  Better performance but nothing has really changed.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 07:28:34 pm by johnsmithlfc »
The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively - Bob Marley

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,542
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 07:32:31 pm »
I thought we saw some positives. Generally, I'm not a fan of three at the back, but it looked better than I expected. We created chances and there was promise with Benteke and Sturridge up front. Moreno and Lucas did well and it was nice to see Sakho.

In the end, we only got a draw and it wasn't good enough. The way I see it, this was a must win game. It's a game we need to win, even if they go 1-0 up after 1 minute and our keeper is off with a red card. No excuses, we need to win.

These two things sum it up for me. It may look good, or at least promising, but we're not getting the results. So what do we choose to rely on? What is the true picture? In year one it's one thing, but we should see results now. For the time being, we need to focus more on the positives. I say this because I believe we need to stick with Rodgers for some time still. This also means we need to go with what worked vs Norwich. So let's stick with three at the back. The only real issue with that will be our wing-backs. We've got plenty of options, except for those roles. For them we have Moreno and Clyne and that's about it. But so be it.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Always_A_Red

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,479
  • The reds are coming up the hill boys
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 08:17:32 pm »
I'm really not a fan of playing 3 at the back. I don't think it works & I thought that we found this out last season when teams knew how to beat us playing it simply by playing wide.

For me, we seem to revert back to this 'system' when we start conceding goals in the hope that 3 CB's will keep us solid or when we have too many forwards of the same mould and want to play a system that will 'fit' them all onto the pitch. For me it jus doesn't work and there is plenty of evidence to back this up.

The fact that we chop and change the back 4/5 every game could go a long way in explaining why Brendan cannot build a team that is solid. We have no idea what our best 11 is, what our best formation is, what our best style of play is and more worryingly no one in charge who knows how to solve those key points.

We're lost. Its possibly the worst Liverpool 'team' that we've had since Souness. We're a bunch of individuals who look like a Sunday league team assembled together to 'just have a go'. There's no game plan other than to hope that Coutinho hits a 25 yard screamer and wins us the game. Its simply not good enough for a club like Liverpool FC. This period, for every week, month or year that it continues will set us back double. Now isn't the time for rebuilding and players 'settling in', its the time for results and good performances. If they don't come now, they wont come.

I don't see any way that the current set up can turn this around. Its not just 6 games, like people claim, its been the past 18 PL games with us only winning 4 of them. Its been the past 170 days that hasn't seen us score more than 2 goals in a game. Make all the excuses you want, but eventually you have to accept that maybe its not the world that against us and really the main problems are staring us in the face. Will we do anything about it? I doubt it because we have no ambition. As long as we allow regular results like 1-1, 0-3, 1-3, 1-6 then we will continue to slip into mediocrity.




« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 08:21:51 pm by Always_A_Red »
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,849
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2015, 08:28:34 pm »
As far as the game itself goes it was a decent performance but a poor result. Some of the play going forward between half time and Coutinho's miss was really encouraging. Rodgers made the right calls with his starting line-up bringing back Moreno and Sahko and at half time putting Ings on. The wheels fell off the bus a little after their goal which in isolation highlights one of my worries about Rodgers in terms of his ability to react on his feet to a sudden change in situation. Mignolet's whole time here was summed up in 15 minutes of play - he flapped at yet another corner and gave away a goal but then made a great save to keep us in it - problem is that just leaves his contribution as 'neutral' which isn't good enough for us going forward. Despite a great deal of rustiness Sturridge showed what we, and Rodgers, have been missing for so long.

As far as the season goes we have had a good result vs Bordeaux given the personnel and the loss of our most experienced defender early on, 3 decent results, 2 poor results and a dreadful result vs West Ham. We're 4 points off 4th with 32 games still to play and still in both domestic cups. I think comparisons with the Hodgson period are way off the mark - people bringing that up have got very short memories of quite how bad we were back then.

The owners have given Rodgers another season and will consider his position again in the summer. I imagine that if he doesn't get CL he'll go. I think they will only take action earlier if things really start getting ugly and it becomes clear that he has either lost his own confidence or that of the players. I don't think there is any evidence of that yet and as such I think it is really important that the supporters get behind both team and manager. I don't think endlessly talking about Rodgers' future at the moment achieves anything apart from taking our focus away from that job. My own opinion is that there is very little I've seen over the last 3 years that makes me believe that he will hit his target and keep his job - I think we will improve and qualify for the EL again but that he doesn't have it in him to get us 4th plus or win the big one-off matches that win cups. But I think that he has done enough in his time here to get one more chance to prove me and the other doubters wrong.

If I was involved with moderating this board (which I'm not obviously) I'd set some kind of standard for where we are by Christmas (e.g. being within 10 points of fourth and qualified from our EL group) and keep a lid on all of the discussion of his future until then. If things properly take a nosedive I don't think there will be much to debate - I think the owners will step in and then obviously it would be open season on discussing who should replace him. At the moment though it just seems so premature and unproductive to be discussing his future.

Online Romford_Red

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,667
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2015, 08:31:51 pm »
I think most of us seem to agree that there's plenty of talent around the squad.
For me it really is a problem with the manager. I hate to say that because I want him to do well so very much, but it's becoming difficult to ignore.
Rodgers came here and talked about his philosophy and how he wanted to play and I liked that. People say the start to his first year was bad and I'll agree that results were bad, but I remember performances being good. That was a season that started out much like this, with a daunting early fixture list. Yes we lost to both Utd and City, but I remember that we should have won both those games. I was very encouraged by what I saw. It was exciting.
Then in January we get Coutinho and Sturridge and we fly through the second half of the season.
The next seas we grind a lot of it out until Christmas, still playing the Rodgers way. Then he switches us to the diamond and we experience something I have never witnessed before as an LFC supporter. We didn't just beat teams, we annihilated them.

Then it gets a bit baffling.
Rodgers abandons the formation and tactics that worked,  seemingly because he wants to play HIS way and it doesn't work. Yes we lose a strike force to be feared, but that doesn't hide the fact that we are not even a goal threat for months.
Rodgers then employs the back 3 and things get much better very quickly. We go on a massive unbeaten run and are seriously looking at top 4. Then for no reason I can understand, he goes back to HIS way and we falter and look lost again.

Now again we've started indifferently (the wins were wins, but we lacked that something) and he pulls out the 3 at the back again and forgetting the result, we look much better, if not brilliant.
Great, but how long will he keep it? I completely get someone having a philosophy and wanting to play a certain way, but it keeps being proven that it is by far not the best way. When we find a system that works, Rodgers shows a weirdly stubborn streak and just abandons that and it is just baffling.
Last season teams learn't that we NEVER hoof the ball clear and we became hunted and lost goals because of it. A smart man should decide to keep that style, but incorporate a long game for when teams are trying to do that to us. If the opposition is no longer sure we'll do it, it'll be easier to actually execute. But no, instead of that little adjustment, we've become a direct team. Why the sharp swing? It makes no sense.

A good manager learns as he goes and he adapts. I want in my heart to believe in Brenden can do this, but all I see is a stubborn man who fails to learn from things in the good times.

It's getting ridiculous.

Offline CHOPPER

  • Bad Tranny with a Chopper. Hello John gotta new Mitre? I'm Jim Davidson in disguise. Undercover Cop (Grammar Division). Does Louis Spence. Well. A giga-c*nt worth of nothing in particular. Hodgson apologist. Astronomical cock. Hug Jacket Distributor
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 52,557
  • Super Title: Not Arsed
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2015, 09:22:01 pm »
Not very roundtabley this is it.

Its like just a continuation of the 'sack the manager' thread which manifested itself(like most threads these days) from the post match thread. For the sites sake and what I think you are trying to do with this style of thread, I hope someone sort it out - the lunatics are running the asylum.


Yours

A foot soldier
@ Veinticinco de Mayo The way you talk to other users on this forum is something you should be ashamed of as someone who is suppose to be representing the site.
Martin Kenneth Wild - Part of a family

Offline mattD

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,158
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2015, 09:36:15 pm »
Well I think the formations and team line ups against Bordeaux and Norwich saw us actually controlling games for the first time this season (aside from the first half at Arsenal).

The 4-3-3 let's be honest is a massive failure - we've yet to see an effective implementation of it since Suarez left an d I personally think three at the back look much more solid.

Certainly, we have Sakho who can play the ball forward, and I'd personally like to see Lovren given a chance over Skrtel with Joe Gomez completing that back three. All three of them are potentially effective "liberos" who can take the ball into midfield and form the basis of attacks.

Certainly, we saw a lot of that from Sakho against Norwich as a lot of our attacks emanated from balls played from the back. Interestingly - and I don't know why - but our defenders against Bordeaux and Norwich had more space than the usual back four formation.

Offline stockdam

  • The sheer loftus-cheek of the man.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,502
  • Walk on through the wind, Walk on through the rain
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2015, 09:37:13 pm »
I thought the round table was about in-depth discussion about the game and not about the manager and his position.

I was quite pleased with the starting 11. We had Sturridge back and any game time will improve him and get him back to full match fitness.
I was pleased to see Sakho playing as I think he and Skrtel play well together. I think Moreno on the left is better than Gomez (that is no disrespect to Gomez as he is a great young player).

The first half was a cagey affair and we didn't create a lot.

Once Ings came on we were much more mobile up front and he soon scored a good goal.

We started to play well and were creating chances. However we frequently made poor choices or tried too hard to score.

Just when it looked like we would force a 2nd, a poor punch out and they scored a soft goal. We tend to undo a lot of hard work through simple mistakes or weak play.

Ings, Lallana, Moreno, Coutinho, Skrtel and Shako all played well. We had enough chances to win this game and on another day we would have been mystified as to why we didn't win and would be looking forward to the same again but a different result.

However times have changed and there's a growing air of despondency around Anfield that erupted in a chorus of boos at the end of the game.

We should see the results coming if we play like this and if Sturridge finds a partner to work off.

However the boos could be heard over in Boston.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 09:39:27 pm by stockdam »
#JFT97

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2015, 09:49:35 pm »
To the general point of leadership on the pitch, I'd look to Sakho. He has it, or at least he does in French. But first he has to be on the pitch. And then we can discuss how fluent his Scouse is.

Generally though this is a team whose confidence is shot. Yesterday's performance was better than we have seen. We really should have won that. Rodgers choice to set the team up like that was conservative, but with Can and Sakho both being able to carry the ball into the space in front of them then it wasn't so much a big deal. Not that it particularly worked out like that all the time, first half Benteke was called on to do a lot of link up play. Moreno effectively played as a left winger in any case, and made a decent fist of it too.

Really not sure what the answer is. The team played themselves into a decent spell by the end of the first half - and, yes, for sure Norwich were playing deep and on the counter.  Well done to Ings on a very well taken goal when he came on. Sturridge looked as rusty as we'd expect, but he was getting into the positions where he'll be scoring once he's back to speed again.

A midfield of Milner and Lucas really bothers me for all sorts of reasons. Lucas isn't the player he was before injuries. Not by any stretch. He's still a decent player and does a job. But look at that City game before injury when he monstered them. Not happening now is it? And Milner was awful at times yesterday. Slow and I was left feeling guilty for pining after a prime Steven Gerrard. We were very, very spoiled to watch him. Not jumping on the 'Milner is crap' bandwagon, but he looked off the pace by some margin yesterday. Needs to be better. Coutinho did some good work in patches, but, and I'd need to force myself to watch match again to make sure my impression is correct, he struggled to escape the man marking for large portions of the game. On the plus side, we had a left side going forwards and both Sakho and Moreno did themselves no harm in how they both did. We created chances through pressure on Norwich's back line.

But yet again, any rosetint to the performance is undone by yet another brain fart, and yet again at a set piece. What does the manager do about that? We obviously do prepare for defensive set pieces so, no, it ain't that. Fuck knows now. It's personnel and confidence and we're all over the shop at times. BassTunedtoRed made a good point in the stats thread about how, defensively, we're actually alright because people don't get many efforts from inside the box at us. The bad news is that when teams do get a shot on target we're very likely to concede from it.

There's room there to turn this round. It's going to be very tough though to pull some back even if Rodgers manages it. The frustration is that we all know that this feels like a manager's first season at the club with players nervous and unsure. Rightly or wrongly. But with a horrific track record from the end of last season to throw into the mix too, it's got that juddering feel of the end approaching when parts of the Anfield crowd jeer the team off.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 09:52:54 pm by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,542
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2015, 09:53:20 pm »
I thought the round table was about in-depth discussion about the game and not about the manager and his position.

I was quite pleased with the starting 11. We had Sturridge back and any game time will improve him and get him back to full match fitness.
I was pleased to see Sakho playing as I think he and Skrtel play well together. I think Moreno on the left is better than Gomez (that is no disrespect to Gomez as he is a great young player).

The first half was a cagey affair and we didn't create a lot.

Once Ings came on we were much more mobile up front and he soon scored a good goal.

We started to play well and were creating chances. However we frequently made poor choices or tried too hard to score.

Just when it looked like we would force a 2nd, a poor punch out and they scored a soft goal. We tend to undo a lot of hard work through simple mistakes or weak play.

Ings, Lallana, Moreno, Coutinho, Skrtel and Shako all played well. We had enough chances to win this game and on another day we would have been mystified as to why we didn't win and would be looking forward to the same again but a different result.

However times have changed and there's a growing air of despondency around Anfield that erupted in a chorus of boos at the end of the game.

We should see the results coming if we play like this and if Sturridge finds a partner to work off.

However the boos could be heard over in Boston.

Good point about Moreno. I think this game really highlighted the difference between him and Gomez when they play down the left. No disrespect to Gomez, but it was good to see the energy from Moreno. He's one that benefits, perhaps the one that benefits the most from us playing with three at the back. Moreno is not the best defensively, but in this wing-back role, he's at his best.

I would also like to add Lucas to the players that played well. One of the things I like the most about him is the kind of solutions we find. I reckon he makes it look simple, without playing 'alibi passes'. That's a general statement, for most games that's the case. In this one, he added some attacking play too, where the ball for Sturridge was the main one.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2015, 10:04:06 pm »
I would also like to add Lucas to the players that played well. One of the things I like the most about him is the kind of solutions we find. I reckon he makes it look simple, without playing 'alibi passes'. That's a general statement, for most games that's the case. In this one, he added some attacking play too, where the ball for Sturridge was the main one.

Lucas' best work yesterday were the odd occasions when he was able to get himself into a position to put pressure onto the opposition. But he's not doing that for 90 minutes. And he's certainly not getting beyond the defence any more to create overloads or find himself free for a pass. Against a team sitting as deep as Norwich were, with both Can and Sakho pretty much free to carry the ball into midfield, and with a Milner who looked leaden legged himself, that's a problem.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,542
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2015, 10:05:43 pm »
A midfield of Milner and Lucas really bothers me for all sorts of reasons. Lucas isn't the player he was before injuries. Not by any stretch. He's still a decent player and does a job. But look at that City game before injury when he monstered them. Not happening now is it? And Milner was awful at times yesterday. Slow and I was left feeling guilty for pining after a prime Steven Gerrard. We were very, very spoiled to watch him. Not jumping on the 'Milner is crap' bandwagon, but he looked off the pace by some margin yesterday. Needs to be better. 

When we have Lucas and Milner in CM, I reckon they get a clear role definition. That may not be everyone's idea of how it should be, but I like it. Milner gets a lot of critisism and he wasn't at his best. He should have scored, for example. But when we play Lucas, Milner and Coutinho, then I think Milner is the one that ends up 'in between'. Lucas plays the deepest, Coutinho is the creator. Those two are given. As per usual, we struggled to get the right mix. It's a problem we've had for a while and I can only see one real solution that I believe in. It requires Henderson and it forces us to go for a diamond midfield. Until we do, we'll continue to have one or two players in roles that suit them and the third will have to try his best to fill the role he gets.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline redbyrdz

  • No to sub-optimal passing! Not content with one century, this girl does two together. Oh, and FUCK THE TORIES deh-deh-deh-deh!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,254
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2015, 10:06:44 pm »
However there is really no-one in the middle of the park, watching, playmaking, judging the match, and whilst Lucas played very well but that isn't his game..
Just want to pick up on this - I haven't watched it again, but during the match I thought that Lucas actualy created a good few of our better chances, I think even Sturridge's 1-1 with the keeper?

If so, what does that say about a) him as a player and b) the rest of our midfield?

Milner was shocking. Should have come off for Lallana or Firmino. And why does he have to take the corners?
"I want to build a team that's invincible, so that they have to send a team from bloody Mars to beat us." - Bill Shankly

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2015, 10:14:37 pm »
When we have Lucas and Milner in CM, I reckon they get a clear role definition. That may not be everyone's idea of how it should be, but I like it. Milner gets a lot of critisism and he wasn't at his best. He should have scored, for example. But when we play Lucas, Milner and Coutinho, then I think Milner is the one that ends up 'in between'. Lucas plays the deepest, Coutinho is the creator. Those two are given. As per usual, we struggled to get the right mix. It's a problem we've had for a while and I can only see one real solution that I believe in. It requires Henderson and it forces us to go for a diamond midfield. Until we do, we'll continue to have one or two players in roles that suit them and the third will have to try his best to fill the role he gets.

Sure. But Norwich were defending so deep that Sakho and Can were able at times to wander up midway into their half with the ball. And we still didn't manage to get any midfielders forward with any regularity. In the absence of that, bar a couple of occasions I can think of, we actually had better chances when we gave them room to muck up with some targeted pressing - but we couldn't do that yesterday with any regularity either. It's a comment more on that particular pair in the same midfield as they were yesterday. It's not really a new problem either, but then neither Lucas nor Milner have anything like Gerrard's passing ability to compensate at least in some way, some times.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,542
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2015, 10:16:31 pm »
Lucas' best work yesterday were the odd occasions when he was able to get himself into a position to put pressure onto the opposition. But he's not doing that for 90 minutes. And he's certainly not getting beyond the defence any more to create overloads or find himself free for a pass. Against a team sitting as deep as Norwich were, with both Can and Sakho pretty much free to carry the ball into midfield, and with a Milner who looked leaden legged himself, that's a problem.

No, I don't think it's a problem. When we ask Lucas to play deep, he'll do that and he'll be fine. He'll find good solutions and we move the ball forward. It's when we ask him to become some sort of box-to-box midfielder that he'll have problems. It happened when we played Gerrard deep and Lucas ahead of him. I also believe that when we play him deep, it gives the team a sense of security and at the same time, it frees up more attacking players. And when Can wants to take the ball forward, he can do that.

The way I see Lucas, is similar to how I see Moreno. Lucas needs to play deep and when he gets to do that, he'll do a good job. When Moreno plays as wing-back, he'll do well. Switch Moreno to LB and ask him to defend and he's not as reliable. Same for Lucas. Change his role and he too will be less reliable. Vs Norwich, we got them both in good, suitable roles and it showed.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Alf

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,593
  • Leader of Alf Quaida & the Scaliban
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2015, 10:17:45 pm »
I thought we looked encouraging going forward as I did when went behind at Old Trafford. Moreno & Sakho added value to the lineup while the midfield looked incredibly lightweight. I like Milner but I'm not convinced about him in central midfield or as captain so early in his time with us. Danny Ings looked impressive on the ball & should Benteke not make it back at the weekend, I'd have no hesitation starting him up top with Sturridge. Coutinho should have played in Ings at 1-1 instead of shooting, I also wonder if the manager has reservations about Firmino.

Better than other home displays this season but not good enough.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2015, 10:28:26 pm »
No, I don't think it's a problem. When we ask Lucas to play deep, he'll do that and he'll be fine. He'll find good solutions and we move the ball forward. It's when we ask him to become some sort of box-to-box midfielder that he'll have problems. It happened when we played Gerrard deep and Lucas ahead of him. I also believe that when we play him deep, it gives the team a sense of security and at the same time, it frees up more attacking players. And when Can wants to take the ball forward, he can do that.

The way I see Lucas, is similar to how I see Moreno. Lucas needs to play deep and when he gets to do that, he'll do a good job. When Moreno plays as wing-back, he'll do well. Switch Moreno to LB and ask him to defend and he's not as reliable. Same for Lucas. Change his role and he too will be less reliable. Vs Norwich, we got them both in good, suitable roles and it showed.

We played three at the back yesterday, so if Lucas is providing security for Can to move forward, we gain precisely nothing and should just have started Can in midfield and Lucas in defence. He's not dropping back to fit in between two centre-halves whilst we knock it between the back three on the half-way line. That's really my point - agree with you that Lucas can perform a job. But yesterday, that job wasn't needed and so it was pretty dour in the main. Yes, Coutinho didn't have a great day. Nor did Milner. And sure Henderson, who does provide energy and does a lot of running, is out. But that midfield yesterday wasn't good. We'd surely have expected to have had a little more control in the full first half otherwise? There were bright moments, and they can be used to disallow criticism, or, as I'm doing, one can question why it wasn't happening more regularly. This was Norwich. Lump ball to lone striker, who Skrtel managed very well incidentally, Norwich.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,542
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2015, 10:34:03 pm »
Sure. But Norwich were defending so deep that Sakho and Can were able at times to wander up midway into their half with the ball. And we still didn't manage to get any midfielders forward with any regularity. In the absence of that, bar a couple of occasions I can think of, we actually had better chances when we gave them room to muck up with some targeted pressing - but we couldn't do that yesterday with any regularity either. It's a comment more on that particular pair in the same midfield as they were yesterday. It's not really a new problem either, but then neither Lucas nor Milner have anything like Gerrard's passing ability to compensate at least in some way, some times.

I read an article today, I think it's in the 3-4-3 thread. It mentioned how to play against low block defences. Switching play, changing the tempo, combinations and runs in the channels were some of the things that could be used. Without Gerrard, we miss the ability to switch the ball from one flank to another with a single pass. But we should be able to change the tempo, we should be able to use combinations and I think we should be able to get runs from our strikers (unlike last season). We saw some combinations yesterday with Lallana, Firmino and Coutinho. They'll know what to do.

My concern is with the two CMs. In theory, I reckon it's best if we could have players that can take turns being the more attacking player. In reality, I think it works just as well when we have one more defensive and one more attacking. The most attacking we can get, without risking everything, is to play two CBs and a defensive midfielder. Then we push the fullbacks higher up and we become something like a 2-1-4-3. But here's the thing for me - how does that help? Essentially, what we do is we push even more players in the already crowded area. What we need is the kind of player Gerrard was, and what Rafa identified, the player to break into the box. I'm not convinced we have any CM who is like that. Which makes me think, perhaps we should just accept that. Accept it and pull them deeper, then hand over the work to our attacking midfielders. We have a few of them.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2015, 10:46:31 pm »
Broadly agree with that post Gnurglan. I guess what I'd suggest is that the midfielder running past the defence actually helps open it. Milner had an excellent chance from doing that. But that particular pairing yesterday just wasn't doing anything for me. The odd moment when they showed how effective they could be was outweighed by the fact that they were odd moments. The plus side to it is that chances were being created. The manager should have had three points to talk about post-match. But then this was Norwich and with Henderson out for some months now, I think we're both agreed that unless Milner becomes that sort of player then our midfield is lacking something. We may compensate in other ways depending on the form of the three more obviously attacking players. But they'll be marked just as tightly as Coutinho was in these sort of games, and someone has to make the run from deep to take advantage of the space that frees up.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline mrantarctica

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,951
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2015, 11:08:59 pm »
We don't have a lot of role clarity at all. BR is fond of trying to get all rounders in every role - defenders who attack and attackers who defend. Unfortunately, he doesn't have defenders who defend very well and attackers who attack very well, at his disposal. When he does (Suarez, Lucas at his peak, Sturridge, Sterling, Gerrard) not surprisingly we play quite well and our results are better.

I think the solutions are reasonably clear but not necessarily simple to carry out.

1.  We need to work a lot harder to win the ball back when we don't have it. Too often, teams have an easy time playing the ball around. We need to make it so its an absolute nightmare to pass the ball around us. We need to demand that teams playing us have the utmost first touch and passing accuracy, otherwise we'll nab it. At the moment, teams appear to have an easy time knocking it around without a lot of interference from us.

2. Can is not a central player yet. I think he'd be best suited to this RWB role actually. He is a good dribbler who'd take a bit of risk getting up that sideline and taking on his opposite when he has the ball. We saw what difference it made when we took a bit of risk on the left against Norwich. Yes, Moreno was high up the pitch sometimes but it made a big difference because he got into the final third much more frequently and this is where wide players can actually make a difference. It's a key area of the pitch to control, and while Clyne is an excellent fullback, I don't think he's quite the right player for the wing back role. He needs someone in front of him to link up with but if we don't have any wingers then that's going to be hard for him. Furthermore, Can isn't the best defender and putting him in a central role just keeps landing us in trouble.

3. Play the game at much higher tempo, particularly in the final third. We saw this much more against Norwich, but we're still seeing Coutinho get the ball and try and score goals from 20 yards much too often. It's becoming predictable and teams know that he might score the odd one but most of the time he doesn't get it right and its easy to defend against. Instead, we look far more threatening when we display some pass and move. All our best chances against Norwich (and other teams) have come from quick interchanges, and players making clever runs off the ball.

4. Play a higher defensive line, which compresses the game slightly and gives their AM's less chance to run at us. Part of this means dropping Skrtel. I think Lovren and Sakho should be partnered together. Skrtel is out of form IMHO and continues to play very deep which is a big problem for us because he invites players to run at us, or allows teams to get into advance wide areas where they can swing in crosses or win set pieces which cause us a lot of problems because we aren't good positionally, in terms of marking and because Mignolet can't deal with it.

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,542
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2015, 11:29:45 pm »
Broadly agree with that post Gnurglan. I guess what I'd suggest is that the midfielder running past the defence actually helps open it. Milner had an excellent chance from doing that. But that particular pairing yesterday just wasn't doing anything for me. The odd moment when they showed how effective they could be was outweighed by the fact that they were odd moments. The plus side to it is that chances were being created. The manager should have had three points to talk about post-match. But then this was Norwich and with Henderson out for some months now, I think we're both agreed that unless Milner becomes that sort of player then our midfield is lacking something. We may compensate in other ways depending on the form of the three more obviously attacking players. But they'll be marked just as tightly as Coutinho was in these sort of games, and someone has to make the run from deep to take advantage of the space that frees up.

Yes our midfield is lacking somehing. Absolutely. And to make it simple, what we miss is an outstanding player. We can play Henderson, Can, Allen, Lucas, Milner in any kind of setup. You add a Gerrard, Alonso or Mascherano (from '07 or thereabouts) and immediately that player would become our best CM. We'd shape our CM around him. The unique options would become valuable. Players who have a specific job to do. Because they'd complement that main player in the way we see fit. This is another reason why I appreciate Lucas so much. He's different from the others. You know what he's supposed to do. If we need it, we play him. If not, we don't.

Milner could have become a hero vs Norwich. It wasn't to be since he didn't score. As others have said, I think he is the one who suffers the most when Henderson is out. I didn't expect that to be the case, but now I think it is. In CM, he gets a very big role and I think as captain, many players look to him for leadership. It's quite something for him, considering he's new here, he's in a new role and we're under pressure.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Black Bull Nova

  • emo
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,820
  • The cheesy side of town
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2015, 11:35:14 pm »
That was the closest to our strongest team we've seen, barring Henderson and the fact that one or two players are not fully fit (Sturridge) or fully up to speed (Firmino) but it never felt like they were playing like a team. I know that comes with time but having said that 8 of them were here last year as well. I think some of the problems are mental, some eminate from the unease around the ground but some come from the fact we don't have anyone in midfield who is driving and dictating the game, it should probably be Milner but, having been an extra at City he's not quite ready to take centre stage somewhere else. Defence looks solid enough and there are plenty of teams for whom a goal against is not the end of the world.

Trouble is for us it causes us problems, if it is the first goal of the game we are really not set up to break teams down, Benteke takes us further than we were but we've struggled for a number of years with this one, even Suarez struggled when the bus was parked. Even if it's not first goal, we are struggling so much to score that one goal appears to be enough to get a result out of us at the moment. There's a lack of imagination and yes, Brendan was right, risk taking, Coutinho was trying to take risks but, despite being a top player, he's still got room to develop and learn, to become unpredictable.

I think the thing people are struggling with is that its hard to put a finger on why we look so ordinary, we probably need to look at teams like Leicester to see what we are missing and, to a degree, Moreno is the only one who has played with anything like the energy of Leicester this year. Its all a little safe and its all a little non-committal, have a go, put some heart in it.
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Online wemmick

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,902
  • "Do it half-assed. That's the American Way!"
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2015, 11:38:06 pm »
4. Play a higher defensive line, which compresses the game slightly and gives their AM's less chance to run at us. Part of this means dropping Skrtel. I think Lovren and Sakho should be partnered together. Skrtel is out of form IMHO and continues to play very deep which is a big problem for us because he invites players to run at us, or allows teams to get into advance wide areas where they can swing in crosses or win set pieces which cause us a lot of problems because we aren't good positionally, in terms of marking and because Mignolet can't deal with it.

Nice post. #4 really stood out to me. Looking at these heat maps, we need to play 10-15 yard further up the pitch to make three at the back dominant. This first heat map shows the touches of the whole team.

This second one shows all the touches minus Can and Sakho. We're really heavily dependent on their passing in the 3-4-3/3-5-2, but they were in our own half too much. I don't think it's going too far to say we had little offensive production without them. They made about 24% of all our passes!

If Rodgers wants two "quarter-backs" at the back, he should have the whole team play higher up the pitch for longer periods. I don't know if the players will listen to Rodgers, as they don't seem to sometimes, but it would sure help them.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 11:51:59 pm by wemmick »

Offline BabuYagu

  • It's Portuguese for 'BabyYoghurt'. The John Motson of RAWK. Or Barry Davies. Or Charley Boorman, even. Expertly silent fist-pumper. Needs to pay more attention. Repeatly analing goalkeepers.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,350
  • wakelet.com/@BabuYagu
    • Wakelet of the Articles I have written
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2015, 12:11:51 am »
I put this in the post-match thread but IŽll add it again to avoid repeating myself.

Quote
After the Bordeaux match I gave it another watch and all our best chances came from a moment of individual play rather than us actually creating anything. ItŽs a very worrying trend.

Todays game was better. The biggest difference for me was the pressing high and forcing mistakes and turnovers in the Norwich half. Our goal and several of our best chances came from that. No idea why we only started doing that now though. The difference Moreno made to us with the ball was very clear to see. We offered no threat whatsoever all season from our left. Almost all our attacks came down the right. But today all our best moments were down the left.

IŽll be honest. IŽve lost a lot of faith in Rodgers. I just donŽt see him learning from mistakes and everything is working in cycles at the club. He also only seems to make changes that are forced upon him or our of a sense of desperation. "I have to change something". Last season he stumbled upon 3 at the back when I thought he was on the verge of being sacked when the season ended. He went on a fantastic run that probably saved his job. He then abondoned 3 at the back for no good reason at all. Then built a squad that (bar Clyne) seemed perfectly built to play a back 3. Yet persisted with 4 at the back through 5 games of awful, slow, fragile performances with no creativity, intensity, pace, penetration or imagination. 

Then he gives 3 at the back a go again in Europe and it now appears the chosen formation again. Assumably until Sakho gets injured, we have 2 bad games and he abondons it once more for Skrtel+Lovren and more shit on a stick football.

I havenŽt got over the selection against West Ham. The idea that a team to contain Arsenal for a point would be the same to break down BilicŽs bus which he told us he would park even before the game started. I said before the game we would regret not having a single left footed player on the left flank and it would severely stifle our attacks. I expected we would look crap and pick up a point. I didnŽt think on top of that we would brainfart our way to a 3-0 defeat.

Unfortunately some of the overthetop and harshly worded criticism of Rodgers means expressing your concerns about him makes you a c*nt. I said before, I realised I havenŽt gotten over Rafa. I only realised that with the West Ham selection. It was clear to me and imagine many others too that we should have made changes to take advantage of our opponents weaknesses and counter their strengths that game. I expected it because that is what Rafa would have done.

IŽll support Rodgers until the day he leaves. IŽll be sad as I really believed he could do it here. The belief is gone though. IŽm at my Houllier moment with him. I wonŽt shout for him to be sacked because I think he has always been respectful and done his best for the club. IŽll still will him to succeed. IŽll defend him against unfair criticism. But I will no longer ask for him to be given time or more chances and when the day comes, IŽll feel relieved instead of angry as I was with Rafa & Kenny.

There are a lot of things about Liverpool that concern me at the moment. Hinesy hit the nail on the head about leadership. There is just none in the team whatsoever, bar maybe Lucas & Sakho. I also worry that Rodgers doesnŽt take much consideration of who he is facing. He seems to just keep things as they are game to game until poor performances or injuries/suspensions force a change, as mentioned in my rant above.

IŽm also worried that pretty much every shot from inside our box seems to result in a goal. Or should I say, every shot on target? I donŽt think Mignolet could do much about many of the goals. Then again, we have a supposed top tier goalkeeper so maybe even some of the world class saves we got accustomed to seeing De Gea, Courtois or even Bryan bloody Gunn make would have made a difference to our season so far.

The only players who impressed me yesterday were Sakho (yet had some dodgy moments), Lucas (ran out of steam) and Moreno. Everyone else had a poor-average game.

When your entire squad appears off form, you are badly lacking leadership, almost every shot on target results in a goal conceeded, the oppo goalkeeper pulls out a few worldy saves - where and how do you apportion blame? I could reasonably say we created enough chances to have beaten them by 3 or 4. I can also honestly say that had we done so, I think I would still feel exactly the same way about Rodgers and Liverpool right now too.
My first article on Anfield Index on Shaqiri. Enjoy. bit.ly/2mAq3Qd

Offline 007.lankyguy

  • Subject of a restraining order by a regular member of the HIGNFY crew. Hasn't got a clue when Liverpool play next. Fully stopped.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,655
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2015, 12:31:28 am »
I thought one of the key decisions was Alex Neil not starting Hoolahan. I was a little concerned about Hoolahan beforehand because of all our problems dealing with the counter attack against West Ham and he'd been very good against Bournemouth, running into space and being direct and aggressive off Jerome. I was quite surprised when I saw the team sheet and he wasn't on there.

Yet while Neil removed some of their attacking threat by not starting him, the decision also shut off our midfield very well. By flipping the triangle from a '2-1' to a '1-2', he directly matched us up 3v3 and made it difficult for us to dominate that area of the pitch. Dorrans marked Lucas, Howson went on Milner and Tettey looked after Coutinho. Admittedly it didn't help that Milner and Coutinho had poor games but we really struggled to play through the lines centrally and because of their tight marking we either had to try and attack elsewhere or we had to try and find a free man in the middle.

The most obvious way was for the forwards to find space behind their midfield and try to connect play. Unfortunately this didn't work - Benteke dropped off between the lines more than he usually would but his associative play was pretty poor and it's not his strength to be the player responsible for linking play centrally (and his tight hamstring can't have helped). Sturridge was obviously going to be rusty and he was similarly mediocre at linking play when he dropped off. That then meant that we lost a threat against their CBs.



I thought the three at the back worked well - we consistently halted them on the transition because of the cover and depth provided by the three CBs and I thought we gained something in our build with Sakho and Can being in there. The problem was further ahead. We know that Sakho creates dangerous situations with his incisive passes between the lines. Can's similar and he also has the ability to drive into midfield, collapsing the opposition's marking, or use a long switch of play. Because Milner and Coutinho were so under-par, his aggressive drives into midfield weren't such a big threat but the latter worked really well with Moreno - because we were building play through Can at RCB, Norwich had to shift their block towards that side, meaning Moreno got a lot of space on the left for us to switch play. It was clear early on that Moreno had the beating of their RB and I thought he had a good game, providing a direct threat that Gomez simply can't at LB. It was a bit of a shame we didn't make better use of his cutbacks because we had quite a few opportunities from such situations.

Second half was initially better in some respects; Ings had a good game (excellently taken goal) and his movement behind offered us more dynamism up front and a nice balance when we went ahead, given there was more space behind (and more space between the lines for Sturridge to drop off into as well). My problem was that we started opening up a bit in midfield and I'm not quite sure why. Milner started pushing up more and Coutinho moved a little more into the left channel, which meant we ended up leaving space around Lucas for Norwich to counter attack into. It may not have had any relation to their equaliser but it was frustrating because it was a lack of game intelligence. We didn't need to try and back off necessarily but we should've been keeping the space in midfield tight and we didn't do that.

Their equaliser was obviously very frustrating. Mignolet might be the most obviously responsible for it but we didn't react to the second ball and there was far too much space for Martin to lob Mignolet. Just poor set piece defending.

After that we gradually ended up becoming quite shapeless. We switched to 4-3-3 when Firmino came on for Lucas but in reality it was Can holding and just a lot of movement ahead of him. We still ended up causing Norwich problems and obviously if Coutinho hadn't made such a mess of THAT chance then we'd probably have got the win but again, it felt again like Rodgers was changing something on the spur of the moment and that we didn't quite know what we were doing positionally. I don't want to put too much on it as a criticism - if you're chasing a goal at the end of the game, you sometimes have to take these risks. It was just another example though of us looking a bit lost and confused as to what we were meant to be doing. When it happens once, you don't put a great deal on it; when it's constantly happening, you start getting frustrated.

There was some improvement and I thought a number of our players put in some promising performances. Can looked good on the ball (though was hesitant defensively, in particular losing Jarvis on one of their only real chances). Sakho was very good apart from a couple of minor mistakes. Lucas played well and was probably helped by having the back three behind him, which meant he had to cover less space, and he created a couple of chances from deep midfield as well. Moreno obviously had a good game showing us what we've been lacking on the left. I've mentioned Ings but I also thought Lallana looked alright when he came on as well.

Ultimately though, it's just a shame we couldn't translate that into a cohesive, strong, team performance. The result is very frustrating and when you're on this sort of run it makes it all the more harder to cope with.
"Mind you, I've been here during the bad times too - one year we came second." Sir Bob

Offline irish musicman

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • bettersounds ireland
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2015, 12:58:38 am »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
now thats a round table post

Offline KopThat

  • "See Tom turn red, See Tom run, Oh happy days."
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,524
  • He who laughs last, didn't quite get the joke...
    • GameFaceMe
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2015, 04:53:27 am »
This first heat map shows the touches of the whole team.

This second one shows all the touches minus Can and Sakho. We're really heavily dependent on their passing in the 3-4-3/3-5-2, but they were in our own half too much. I don't think it's going too far to say we had little offensive production without them. They made about 24% of all our passes!


By the looks of those charts, I think it's gonna rain.

It looked like a 3 - 5 - 2 formation, and Rodgers has used this before when he plays 2 strikers up top.

I didn't mind the 3 at the back, and don't see it as too defensive at home. Can, Skrtel and Sakho used it to carry the ball over halfway and penetrate at times, but the movement ahead wasn't the best. The three of them had decent games, and was good to see Sakho back.

It also freed up Moreno and Clyne to bomb forward. Moreno did it better and put in some decent crosses and cut backs.

An understandably rusty Sturridge and hamstrung Benteke didn't help, but I can see that partnership developing nicely.
Ings was a breath of fresh air and showed a bit of passion and he got off the mark in trade mark fashion.

Milner and Lucas weren't the ideal centre midfield pairing, but Lucas broke up their play often enough and  was a  good outlet,
Milner over did it a bit and was far too wasteful and his corners were easily dealt with.

Ruddy won the battle against our attacking threat, and we just needed a bit more composure in front of goal.

1 - 1 at home against a newly promoted side has many sharpening their knives, but if we can keep Sturridge fit I think the team will build in confidence and the goals will come from all areas.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 05:00:23 am by KopThat »

Offline Fiasco

  • Just add water to foam at the mouth. Can't spell San Francisco. Has promised to eat his own cock. Cannibal Self-Harm in that case.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,244
  • JFT96.
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2015, 05:59:18 am »
It has just been summed up perfectly for me: Rogers has now cast the Moyes spell on us. NO ONE has any fear coming to Anfield apart from maybe the boys playing in red. Everyone (rightly) fancies their chances turning up here.

...Amazing some are still calling to give him yet more time. Every waking minute things stay as they are the further we sink.

We are in a massive rut at the moment, of that there can be no doubt. You are right, teams do not fear us and they shouldn't. Norwich are a decent team made up of journeymen and solid players. Their manager sacrificed one of their best players to ensure they had a bit more solidity in the middle and he was vindicated by the result. Neil could have been more aggressive but even with our misfiring team I think a back and forward offensive game would have seen us win by a couple. Still though Norwich didn't seem overly surprised by the draw and could have won it themselves. It wasn't a back to the wall job for them; they rode their luck a little bit and their goalie made some good saves but it wasn't desperate. Simply, an inferior team came to Anfield, put foward a decent game plan and got a point. They might have won on another day, they might have lost, but ultimately nobody was surprised by the result and there was no sense of euphoria from a newly-promoted team getting a result away at Liverpool. That's the worrying part.

Since playing United at home last season we've won 4 league games, those games being Newcastle, QPR, Stoke and Bournemouth. That is seriously depressing. March 22nd the United game was, and we've been victorious 4 times in 14 league games since and the best team we've beaten in that sequence has been Stoke. It's nowhere near good enough.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 06:04:11 am by Fiasco »

Offline the good half

  • these days is hard to find so please be gentle with this half of mine
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,310
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2015, 07:53:25 am »
Anfield/Fortress discussions have been a regularity since the days of Souey.
It's not been a fortress for any sustained time since then.
To 'Make it a fortress again', would mean installing Mr Martin McFly as manager.

There was a great deal of positives to be gleaned for the Norwich result.
And it's that that we should focus on.

Now Brendan must learn form this.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 08:18:18 am by the good half »

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2015, 07:58:43 am »
Not very roundtabley this is it.

Its like just a continuation of the 'sack the manager' thread which manifested itself(like most threads these days) from the post match thread. For the sites sake and what I think you are trying to do with this style of thread, I hope someone sort it out - the lunatics are running the asylum.


Yours

A foot soldier

Posts have been removed and posters muted for their "contributions" to this topic.

Offline RedKenWah

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,587
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2015, 09:04:22 am »
I think the first thing we can say about this was the team selection and it was refreshing to see players that we have been calling for to start, for them to get a start. Sakho & Moreno had very good games, and in the case of Moreno, he's the type of full back you want when you face teams like Norwich. I think the way we played was somewhat better in terms of there being more of an attacking mentality, it was good to see.

If we talk about games in isolation, then we can say yeah it was an improvement, and the positives can be seen. However with the way this season has gone we can't look at this game in isolation, you have to look at it from a collective and only picking up 1 point vs a team who we would normally batter isn't great. Of course a plucky side who have just been promoted are going to make things difficult when they are away from home, but you combat that by being better then them, do things quicker, faster and with so much tempo that no matter how many players they put behind the ball, they should struggle to keep up with the pace and intensity and then you breach them.

I think the team is majorly low on confidence, i think the stat of not scoring more than 1 goal should be of a more pressing concern if it isn't already and is something that needs to be addressed, much like a lot of things that need to be addressed about the squad. Feelings towards the manager are fine, however though the players involved can't hide behind the fact that if a manager is under pressure, then it is acceptable for them to not perform, they need to be bearing a good proportion of the blame for the lack of points of lack of wins.

Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

  • Me, I'm Touchy.....which is why I am so fond of a happy ending ;)
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,337
  • blazed
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2015, 10:12:07 am »
My view:

Overall Performance:

Very good performance from most of the team (barring a couple of notable exceptions), especially with the ball. The result does not negate the quality of the performance. The improvement is there for everyone to see. We passed it well and created multiple chances. On another day we would have hammered them.
When we won against Bournemouth, many on here said it was a terrible performance lifted by a good result.  Here it was the opposite.

Formation and tactics:
The three man defence worked reasonably well, certainly better than what we have seen so far.  The notion that playing 3 at the back is a negative tactic and makes sense only against top opposition is not accurate at all, as anyone with any experience in coaching will tell you.
It worked well in attack as well with Moreno tearing up and down the left side and providing much needed impetus and pace.
I am happy with the formation and dont mind seeing it again in the next one. It seems to be the most balanced formation for the players we have.

Standout performers
Moreno - Best player by a distance. Did some great things on the left side and made very few (if any) mistakes. Looked sharp in that offensive wingback role.

Ings - Great workrate and tenacity combined with pace. With a little fine-tuning he can be a very good PL forward. Hoping to see him more

Sakho and Lucas - Both did fairly well and contributed to our relative solidity.

Prognosis for the future:
I am still not convinced about Rodger's supposed inability to make us better.  I really think we are showing green shoots of recovery in the last two games. 

I would like to see the same formation with the same personnel bar Milner in CM for the next few games and find out if the improvement in performances can be translated into tangible results.


Phuk yoo

Offline Kochevnik

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,980
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2015, 10:40:39 am »
I see two big issues facing us going forward (setting aside the whole question of how long the manager can last at this point).

1)Our work at set pieces is dire, both in defence and attack.
2)Our midfield is so, so static.

Fixing number one I think is doable; after all, we were brilliant at set pieces in 2013-14, and that wasn't all down to Suarez.  Gerrard's delivery, while certainly better than Milner's, wasn't world class, but we were still scoring a goal or two every month from set pieces, and we weren't giving those cheap goals away.  In my opinion the big difference was patterns of movement in the box, coordinated with the set-piece taker knowing which pattern of movement was going to happen, leading to a decent amount of free headers.  Granted, there was a bit of luck involved in how many of them actually went in, but there was a clear plan and one that had been worked out beforehand.  Yesterday, our set pieces looked like Milner was just trying to go near post, while the runners in the box weren't sure what his plan was.  It was completely dysfunctional.  And we were terrible at defending them as well, just all over the map with no coherent plan other than "everyone try to keep the ball out the goal."

Fixing number two is fixable as well, but probably only with another player brought in.  I don't want to beat him any more than I already have, but bringing in Milner was a terrible idea.  Actually, it wouldn't have been that bad an idea if he had come in to do what he did at City, sort of a utility player who is good enough to bring off the bench in any of about 4 positions, but backup in all of them.  The part that makes it a bad idea is that we essentially promised him a starting role in the centre of midfield to get him to come, which is hamstringing Rodgers at the moment.

Put it this way: imagine if we had gotten William Carvalho instead of Milner, and let Lucas leave.  Right now we could play a 4-2-3-1 with Can and Carvalho sitting behind 3 of Ibe, Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino.  Or a 4-4-2 diamond with Carvalho sitting, Can and Coutinho ahead of him, and Firmino behind Sturridge and Benteke.  Either of those two options look very solid, preventing us from being cut apart by a simple pass or two on the counter, but yet setting a firm foundation for us to attack from.  And that's without Henderson, who could come back from his injury and very capably fill a number of roles surrounded by those players.

Instead, we have a midfield that looks exactly like what it is - a bunch of above-average players.  And you can get away with a number of above-average players, as long as you have a Suarez and a Gerrard or two to come up with about 15 goals a season out of nothing.  Getting your first 50 or 55 goals is easy, at the level of spending we're doing.  The hard part is finding those players who can turn 55 goals into 70, who can take us from sixth to fourth by virtue of those 8 extra points they earn us when they have no right to score.  And a big part of that is a dynamic midfield, with a couple of players who you expect to consistently do things like that every third or fourth game.  We simply don't have it right now, and that's why we're nowhere.  We have Coutinho, and we hope that Firmino can develop into that kind of player. 

If Benteke can at least score the ones he should score, and Sturridge can stay fit, then we'll get 60 points at worst.  The question is whether Firmino or Coutinho (or someone else) can somehow change things around enough to get us to 70 or 75 and in with a shot at fourth.  And at this point, you'd have to say the smart money is firmly against that happening.
Managers who have won fewer than three European Cups: Ferguson, Mourinho, Guardiola, Saachi, Hiddink, Hitzfeld, Clough, Happel, Trapattoni, Cruyff, Michels, Lobanovsky, Capello, and many more.
Managers who have won three or more European Cups: Bob Paisley

Offline gandalf50

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
  • Named "Most Naive poster on Rawk" by L666kop
Re: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2015, 11:05:47 am »
Why didn`t Coutinho square to Ings? Their defender hadn`t covered that well and it`s not as if he has a great record in 1v1s. That was the game won or lost in that moment.
Also Sakho was good yesterday. But he got caught badly in midfield leading up to either the corner for their goal or the point blank save by Mignolet.
The next 5 or 6 league games are really tough. What is an acceptable return points / performance wise to say Brendan should get continued support?
Are away draws or one win and a draw away to Everton and Spurs along with heroic failures at Chelsea and City good enough?
I don`t think EL performances should count.
There really isn't.  I think a lot of us, even our own have started doubting it. It's time to rise up. And take what is rightfully ours. It's a big mountain, but what is the point in achieving something, which everyone can?

Fate has given us a mountain too big. We have to rise. We have to believe.

fowler9_god