Topic: 1965 and all

[Byrnee]

Know completely what you're saying John, and to a point I agree - what excites me more - finishing fourth or winning a Cup? Its a no-brainer. I love that feeling, the pride the fucking 'we did it' felling when we lift a Cup.

Its one of the best feeling you can have not just watching football, but in life.

Sadly the game has been devalued to the extent that 4th is more important in so many ways. I wish it weren't like that - fuck I'd be all for a Champions League with Champions only participants, but the big clubs (inlcuding us) have been appeased by the 'Champions League as it stands.

I just worry that if we don't finish fourth, the money we'll miss out on, the players leaving, the players who wouldn't be interested in joining, it all adds up to a bleak future. I know its a poor analogy because there are so many different factors but look at Leeds.

Christ look at us last season after not qualifying. Look at Newcastle and the mess they're in. All can be attributed ot other things (bad choice of manager, etc) but it all boils down to the same thing, its a vicious circle. I want to see us lift the big old silver cup again and the title again. I love the FA Cup, love it to bits but I know that for this season at least, it has to be on the backlburner in terms of priorities.

Hurts like hell, but sometimes the truth does hurt.

For Liverpool FC this season, a hell of a lot rides on us finishing IN the top 4.

Hopefully, we'll do it at a cnater and pick up the League Cup off either the Mancs or Chelsea. I may be an eternal optimist (and after last night's performance, when I say what I'm about to, you could get the padded cell ready for me)  I think we might do very well in the Champions League this year and surprise everyone.

[KennyVialli]

I'm another one who can't make up my mind. My opinion on this changes as each REASONED argument is posted.  I want this club to win trophies, I want us in the champs league, and in an ideal world both things should happen (ala 2001).  Perhaps Rafa is/was guilty of a misjudgement in not according the FA cup enough respect, but hang about, wasn't  everyone  up in arms about how our 1st team could only beat Watford 1-0, and that the kids should've played ? 
I can imagine the uproar if  Stevie or Mori or whoever was ruled out for the most crucial part of the season because they got injured against Burnley or Bournemouth. Lets face it, our kids and fringe players should have beaten Burnley, and if that had happened, how many indignant supporters would there be? No I'm sorry but I think John's argument would only have been valid the very first time we fielded an understrengh team in the FA Cup. Why didn't you feel indignant when we played Tranmere in 2001 with fringe players? Don't get me wrong, I agree with Johns sentiments (in the main) just think the post is 4yrs too late.

[Tarpaulin]

Its sad cos its true.

[trigger]

The Glory of the Cups

These days there appears to be an opinion among many Liverpool fans that failure to qualify for the Champions League will render any season worthless. They feel that the cups pale into insignificance when compared to the race for one of the top four spots and the ultimate aim of the League title. This opinion even kept rearing its ugly head during the headlong adrenalin rush of 2001.

Agree with you totally there mate...i couldn't give a fuck about 4th really as long as we give our all in ALL of the other competitions, unfortunately it's not only the fans who seem to be obsessed with it.....sadly it's the be-all and end-all for some players too, especially it seems our glorious captain.

Heads up boys we want cup runs too!!!!

[the BIG fella]

Don't know if this has been posted and don't get me wrong because I'm fcukin' gutted, But...

DID RAFA HAVE THE CHOISE OF A FULL STRENGTH TEAM?

Riise went off injured against the Mancs
Gerrard has a groin injury
Baros only just come back after a lengthy layoff - are you really going to risk him on a shite pitch with a hamstring injury
Morientes not registered.
Pellegrino not registered.

So he HAD to replace five others for a start. So who was rested properly Carragher, Garcia and Hamman (who looked knackered on Saturday)

I personally think the team should have done better, Warnock and Pongolle aren't really considered reserve teamers, and neither is Biscan and Nunez. I'm really pissed off at the way Sky spin things, Jim White and Gerry Francis have just been on talking about 8 changes from the Mancs, well five where put on the manager - out of his hands.

[Danny Boys Dad]

Can't get excited about finishing 4th because for me the "Champions" League is just UEFA with more money. As a supporter I can't see the difference between us playing in the "Champions" League and playing in the UEFA Cup. There are some great sides left in UEFA this season and some great matches.
The old European Cup was something to get excited about because it was the elite, the champions of each league. Anything else is just UEFA under another name.
I'd rather us be challenging for all the competitions we're in and not sacrificing one or two for the sake of others, especially not sacrificing the chance of a cup for the possibility of finishing 4th.

[Reeves]

I agree with Paul's perspective on this. The gaffa's in an unenviable position. Play the kids and lose and he's castigated, play teh kids and win and oh what a bright future we have, play teh kids and lose and we've been disrespectful, play the kids and win and its great management, protecting the limbs of our first teamers, play the first teamers and suffer injuries and we're out ofthe race for 4th and potentially the carling and CL too.

Hindsight's a wonderful thing. I would have played a similar team to Rafa last night on balance, but that said i'm not privy to inside information such as who was injured etcetera. He's taking a long term view over the season, trying best to achive the glory referred to above over 4 competions. There may be a battle or two lost, but the importnat thing is to optimise the glory at the end of the season.

[blert596]

The Glory of the Cups
And the duty of every club must remain to compete to the best of their ability for every trophy they enter. The dignity of the club and the loyalty of the fans shouldn't be lightly cast-away.

Russian, I think that line above sums up the disillusionment a lot of us feel over this sorry saga.

There are many levels you can look at the match and the result from, wether it be underperformance by kids, underperformance by so called seniors, and yes, even underperformance by Rafa. To treat it in the simplest context, it was a disgrace that this club should be putting out an underqualified team in this competition. And no self respecting fan can be happy with being out of the FA Cup. We pay the sacrifices every week to feel the glory of winning. At grass roots thats what footballs all about.

The FA cup would take a max of another 4/5 matches after Tues to reach the final. We cant afford to give our higly rated/paid players an extra 4 matches.....what the fk is that all about? And if its injuries were worried about then why risk our expensive players for any game except the 8 important ones if we discount both cup comps.

Unfortunately, I understand the need to be in the CL and the money that goes with it. But at what sacrifice? Maybe we should do a United next year and not enter both comps just to save some legs? Have the clubs traditions been devalued that much? Or maybe we're just a bit naive to a bit of respect from the club for the loyalty, love (yes love), time and money that we put into it.

[Pooch]

Whilst I sympathise with the sentiments many are expressing, in particular John, I am not as concerned about what this says about Liverpool FC.

Yes, in 2001, we managed to get 4th and win 3 trophies.
But, we JUST made it to fourth.

Last season, we JUST made it to fourth winning NOTHING losing embarrasingly to the likes of Portsmouth, Bolton, Marseille and this after being denied Champions Legaue football the season earlier.

When I was chatting to my mates last night, they couldn't believe I said I'd rather finish 4th than win the FA Cup. My Evertonian mate said he'd choose the FA Cup every time. I understand that. But... it is not an enjoyable thing to admit, that we'd rather be 4th than win the FA Cup. Its not enjoyable to admit that we are in essence valuing Silver over Silverware.

However, there is a lot more to it than that. We cannot win the league witht the squad we have. Not a chance. We not bloody likely to win the Champios League with the squad we have.

So we need new players. Now, lets say we don't qualify for the Champins League, because Stevie breaks his leg at Turf Moor, and Baros pulls another Hammy against Bournemouth. We start to drop valuable league points, but progress through the competition. At the end of the season we win the FA Cup but finish 5th behind Everton, Boro or Spurs.

We Finish 5th, 40 points behind Chelsea.

Forget the money. Who's going to want to join us? Second-rate players. Young kids with potential. Not Proven Winners, like Morientes.

We need to make a mark in Europe for the best of the best to sit up and say I want to play for Liverpool. Of course some will take issue with that: The 'we're Liverpool for fucks sake, if a player only wnats to come here to paly in europe, they can fuck off.'

Well, Yes and No. I don't want anyone who isn't committed to playing in that Red shirt be it vs Bayern or Burnley.
But we have to be realistic. Campbell, Smith, Rooney... Gerrard? All these players want/ed to be playing for the best clubs in Europe. Not the most successful clubs, not the clubs with a glamorous past but the clubs with a glamorous future. They want to be challenging for the title. They want to face off against the AC's and Real's of the world. They want to be in that exclusive club.

We may not like it, but we have to face it. The likes of Emlyn and the rest the likes of players who would stay with a club through thick and thin are gone.

As are the days when we fans would let a manager go five seasons without winning anything.

We've won the FA Cup recently, it was fucking great. We won the UEFA Cup and League Cup, we've put our name back on the map.

We've got some of Europes best players. One of the Worlds best managers and we are set up to develop a side that could COULD COULD challenge for the title. Only if we get a team capable, and that means getting a SQUAD capable of winning the title. We don't have it at the moment. Risking damaging our good first XI (that's already damaged) would be reckless.

4th or FA Cup? This season 4th, every time.

I hope that changes. In a few seasons, I would hope when we play a 'rotated' side in this competition, it will still include top class Internationals and a couple of the brightest young talents around. Players who are part of a Championship Challenging squad.
Either that or as John says they make winning the Cup have a Champions League place. Or reducing the amount of places each league can have. Reducing the gap between the haves and the have nots. But at the moment, we have to go with the flow, we have to be a part of the financial elite or risk losing any chance to reclaim our glorious heritage - barring a takeover from one of Roman's chums, and money becomming no object.

With Rafa at the helm, seeing who is up to it and who isn't, seeing who can go and where we need strengthening, I believe we have a lot to look forward to.

It may be hard to deal with an embarrassig loss like this now, but we'll reap the rewards later.

By far the best, and most well balanced post on the subject 

I totally agree with you. Thanks for that.

[steve bic]

Im afraid that European Super League they were all voting for a few years back is here but under a different name.As sad as it may be,  if you aint in it your fucked long term.The other night was yet again another match that showed Rafa the quality he aint got,im afraid if we dont get The 4th spot  it will put back winningthe league even longer.
                       Yes its shite,but thats the way it is nowadays...........

[woof]

John Mac's reaction, like most of us here, is quite normal. Sure, I felt sick afterwards and have been so for the last few days. To make John's point valid, let's look at our opponents. Yes, they are minnows. Yes, they are playing in a division lower than what we're playing. But they've been unbeaten at home in the last 5 games, since losing 3-0 to Spurs. Mind you, they beat Villa 3-1 a while back. Rafa made the mistake of not playing someone who could take the game by the scruff of the neck. We needed an on-field leader to steer the team. Most of the senior players were shite that night, playing with no passion, commitment or steel. With Alonso injured, there's no one to pull the strings and without Hamaan, there was no one to add steel in our play. Gerrard should've been used in those situation. He'd be great at barking orders at underperforming senior players.

And what was Traore thinking? Was he trying to be fanciful? Let's hope Rafa learns from this experience and gets rid of more dead wood at the end of this season.

[stewartw]

Going slightly away from the origanal thread we need to look at this in context now tuesday we played at team that barring the odd player knocked out both Middlesburough and spurs, a side made up of some the most promising nippers in the country cast your minds back to when souy had us knocked out on our own patch by Bristol FFS. And yes before anyone starts i did go to burnley........Twice
and yes i do work in an office with a bunch of mancs and yes this week has been the worst of my most recent life. But and its a big unthe future of this club is in good hands, i for 1 am now getting value for money every other saturday.
I will still miss not being there in may and in all honesty dont watch the final unless were involved, but theres always next year and i like most on here firmly beleive he (Rafa ) wont let this bite him on the arse again
Roll on watford and then the mancs in the CC Final
YNWA

[Rushian]

I didn't agree with john mac on this (though as two to three years ago I would have as per the post I did above). However for RAWK I think it's important we reflect the full range of articulate opinions of those respected posters who use the site. John_mac for many reasons remains one of those voices that deserves to be promoted.

[JMarsh]

Great post. The way the FA Cup is treated nowadays is disgraceful. From United being able to skip the competition in 2000, to the reserve teams being put out currently, and the competition benig sacrificed for....well apparently for 4th place but it seems we rested out "stars" so they could play like a shower of shite against lowly Southampton at the weekend.

I'm only 18, but very much a traditionalist when it comes to football, mainly through my Dad's influence. I barely remember the 1992 win, but the 1996 defeat to the Mancs sticks heavily in my mind. 2001 against Arsenal was the best day of my life at that point.

I was disugsted on Tuesday night.

[sirKennyDaggers]

1965,and our first FA cup win.
Half a Million fans welcomed home the reds on the Sunday,I was there on me dads shoulders,it was like we had won the European Cup three times over,never seen emotion like that day.
Me old man ,who had followed the reds home and away through the 30's,40's 50's dreamt of this day.
As had thousands and thousands of Liverpool fans.
Love the FA cup.

[nige]

Well there's no doubt after the passion of that weekend that Rafa realises that it  is very important to aim for both the highest possible league  finish  AND  FA Cup glory, and that given a reasonably fit squad it is entirely possible.

[WOOLTONIAN]

Dont know how the hell I missed this first time around, but my tuppence worth

Anyone old enough to remember the time prior to 1965 will tell you what winning the FA Cup meant to the fans of LFC.
Be all and end all it may not be, but I share the sentiment that treating the best Knockout competition bar none with disrespect is a disgrace.

I've had many a debate over the way people talk about the Uefa Cup and the League Cup with disdain nowadays.

But the FA Cup is special and a damn site harder to win than any other knockout comp.

I'm assuming here people realise this is the only comp we do not hold the English record for winning.

Wembley was always a very special place to be in May, but perhaps some are too young to remember our great days at Wembley.

[XPeriment626]

Well, to all who wanted Benitez to learn from his "mistake" last year and field a team of regulars, hope you're happy now. I certainly am, what with having witnessed one of the best FA cup matches in history, with Xabi's 65-yard cracker as the icing on the cake.

[capt k]

 I may be an eternal optimist (and after last night's performance, when I say what I'm about to, you could get the padded cell ready for me)  I think we might do very well in the Champions League this year and surprise everyone.

Byrnee hope you backed this up with a few quid.....