Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 878569 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5120 on: March 21, 2017, 08:52:52 am »
Two then - point still stands

It really doesn't. I posted earlier an analysis of the last two elections and there were specific factors that impacted on them.

You're absolutely right that Corbyn could have had no influence on those two elections. He was after all a man who had failed to have any influence on anything much in thirty years as an MP.

But thanks to the idiotic rule change in 2014 he is now in a position to influence the fortunes of the Labour Party and the 2010 and 2015 elections are irrelevant. Now that he does have the ability to influence things he has made them worse.

I've no doubt your simplistic sophistry is par for the course in pro-Corbyn Twitter feeds and the Momentum bubble. It's no surprise that people who believe or promote such arguments are incapable of seeing what an utter disaster Corbyn and his merry band are for the Labour Party.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5121 on: March 21, 2017, 09:01:06 am »
Two then - point still stands

Strange choice of profile pic. Why would you have an anarcho-syndicalist as your profile pic and user name? Are those your politics (in which case what are you doing in the Labour Party thread) or are you one of those people who romanticise anarchism as a lifestyle? They do have some great graphics but then so do the stalinlists and the fascists.
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Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5122 on: March 21, 2017, 09:23:45 am »
Strange choice of profile pic. Why would you have an anarcho-syndicalist as your profile pic and user name? Are those your politics (in which case what are you doing in the Labour Party thread) or are you one of those people who romanticise anarchism as a lifestyle? They do have some great graphics but then so do the stalinlists and the fascists.

Mané would have given the game away.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5123 on: March 21, 2017, 09:28:47 am »
Mané would have given the game away.

 ;D ;D ;D

Offline Thush

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5124 on: March 21, 2017, 09:31:43 am »
Why is there so little discussion on Andy's original post about the future of Labour? The endless in-fighting is so tiring and, ultimately, pointless.

I'd love to see what vision people want from the Labour Party, some goals to achieve and some specific objectives or targets. Then we could talk about ideas and solutions to reach those targets. We can identify rules, constraints and values, giving us a framework to define the strategy of the Labour Party.

For example, is one goal to be elected to government? Seems like a fair one. Let's set a specific objective to form the government in the next election (2020, let's say). This is something tangible that we can say we've achieved or not in the time period. You can go further by breaking down these objectives into more detail, say, "Retain the top 10 most marginal Labour seats" and "Gain the top 20 marginal seats where Labour is in 2nd place".

Now, you can come up with some ideas. One might be, "Target all resources into canvassing at marginal constituencies" or "Raise awareness of Labour policies". Once the ideas are agreed, then they can be implemented.

Practical discussion like this would be preferable for me in this thread and its opening post.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5125 on: March 21, 2017, 09:36:51 am »
Why is there so little discussion on Andy's original post about the future of Labour? The endless in-fighting is so tiring and, ultimately, pointless.

I'd love to see what vision people want from the Labour Party, some goals to achieve and some specific objectives or targets. Then we could talk about ideas and solutions to reach those targets. We can identify rules, constraints and values, giving us a framework to define the strategy of the Labour Party.

For example, is one goal to be elected to government? Seems like a fair one. Let's set a specific objective to form the government in the next election (2020, let's say). This is something tangible that we can say we've achieved or not in the time period. You can go further by breaking down these objectives into more detail, say, "Retain the top 10 most marginal Labour seats" and "Gain the top 20 marginal seats where Labour is in 2nd place".

Now, you can come up with some ideas. One might be, "Target all resources into canvassing at marginal constituencies" or "Raise awareness of Labour policies". Once the ideas are agreed, then they can be implemented.

Practical discussion like this would be preferable for me in this thread and its opening post.

Because people like Cohen have been backpatting eachother and calling people who disagreed fucking idiots and morons, sadly it's became impossible to talk or discuss over the labour party now. It's like supporting a football team, your side are right, the other side is totally wrong, and never the twain shall meet as the party is ripped apart.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5126 on: March 21, 2017, 09:40:08 am »
Galloway is running in Manchester Gorton.

With an excellent Lib Dem candidate already in place, and Labour riven with divisions (the local party has been in "special measures" for some time now), it will certainly be an interesting battle.

62% remain and big student population....

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5127 on: March 21, 2017, 09:41:47 am »
I can't speak for others Thush, but to be frank that sounds terribly boring. I come in this thread to discuss the Labour Party, not for a mid-year performance review with my manager where we set s.m.a.r.t objectives and review minutes.

Offline Thush

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5128 on: March 21, 2017, 09:42:41 am »
Because people like Cohen have been backpatting eachother and calling people who disagreed fucking idiots and morons, sadly it's became impossible to talk or discuss over the labour party now. It's like supporting a football team, your side are right, the other side is totally wrong, and never the twain shall meet as the party is ripped apart.
In this thread though.


I assume most posters want the Labour Party to succeed. They might agree or disagree with how it is operating right now. But without clearly defining what Labour wants to achieve and how to do it, all the arguments are just hot air.

Offline Thush

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5129 on: March 21, 2017, 09:44:52 am »
I can't speak for others Thush, but to be frank that sounds terribly boring. I come in this thread to discuss the Labour Party, not for a mid-year performance review with my manager where we set s.m.a.r.t objectives and review minutes.
This thread isn't a discussion at all though. It's basically one side saying they hate Corbyn and his associates and another side saying they love him. For 129 pages!

Defining what the Labour Party should be is what Andy was looking for in his original post. If that's not what this thread is about, then that's fine.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5130 on: March 21, 2017, 09:53:50 am »
In this thread though.


I assume most posters want the Labour Party to succeed. They might agree or disagree with how it is operating right now. But without clearly defining what Labour wants to achieve and how to do it, all the arguments are just hot air.

I agree that would be a great idea and suggested the same a few pages back. I just can't see how it happens. I posted about Thornberry's performance on Newsnight and she said that there's general agreement about a lot of policy and that Labour policies are generally approved of by voters.

That begs the question - why are Labour so toxic electorally?

 
   And that will bring it back to the pro-Corbyn view that he is the great hope who is feared by the Tories and who would romp an election if he wasn't undermined by the PLP, MSM, red Tories, BBC (especially the arch-witch Kuennsberg) or the anti-Corbyn view that he is an electoral nightmare.

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Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5131 on: March 21, 2017, 09:55:45 am »
This thread isn't a discussion at all though. It's basically one side saying they hate Corbyn and his associates and another side saying they love him. For 129 pages!

Defining what the Labour Party should be is what Andy was looking for in his original post. If that's not what this thread is about, then that's fine.

Are you not comfortable with the current definition of the Labour Party? I am, personally. I don't think it needs changing. The only people who seem to have an issue with it, or want it to change dramatically, are supporters of the leader.

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5132 on: March 21, 2017, 10:01:25 am »
I agree that would be a great idea and suggested the same a few pages back. I just can't see how it happens. I posted about Thornberry's performance on Newsnight and she said that there's general agreement about a lot of policy and that Labour policies are generally approved of by voters.

That begs the question - why are Labour so toxic electorally?

 
   And that will bring it back to the pro-Corbyn view that he is the great hope who is feared by the Tories and who would romp an election if he wasn't undermined by the PLP, MSM, red Tories, BBC (especially the arch-witch Kuennsberg) or the anti-Corbyn view that he is an electoral nightmare.
Don't have a message. People supporting Corbyn must only do so because they agree with certain things he believes in, not because they think he can lead Labour to victory. Or at least I hope that is the case, that would be delusion.

Offline whiteboots

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5133 on: March 21, 2017, 10:09:52 am »
Any political party is conceived by principle and rhetoric, but delivered by practicality and events.

I like many of Corbyn’s policies, but he has neither the experience nor influence to deliver them. Centralist New Labour have the experience and influence, but not the policies.

Labour as a party has not come to terms with Brexit Britain. Corbyn ideologically, along with Milne and McDonnell still see the EU in Bennite terms. Centralist New Labour has yet to understand working class dissatisfaction with immigration and Europe.

Brexit will not play out well. Living standards will fall, prices will rise, uncertainty will prevail. Theresa May will pay for that internally within the Tory party, and outside electorally. Labour needs to be harrying the government at every turn.

The new politics will be about those wishing to cling on to as much that is good about Europe as possible, and those wishing to stick two fingers up. The present Labour and Tory parties do not offer that.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5134 on: March 21, 2017, 10:11:13 am »
Don't have a message. People supporting Corbyn must only do so because they agree with certain things he believes in, not because they think he can lead Labour to victory. Or at least I hope that is the case, that would be delusion.

See the numerous polls showing Corbyn's current popularity within the Labour party to be at historic levels. Corbyn isn't an anomaly in the party. He is the party. This is what the Labour party is.
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Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5135 on: March 21, 2017, 10:11:50 am »
I see Len Mcluskeys challenger, "Moderate" Gerard Coyne has turned to The Scum to help him in his quest to rid Unite of "Red Len". Fucking scumbag! (Mind you, Tony Blair happily climbed  into bed with The Scum to get New Labour elected, the c*nt. And "Saving Labour" also used or maybe were used by The Scum in the last Labour leadership challenge, the shitbags.)

But thanks to the idiotic rule change in 2014 he is now in a position to influence the fortunes of the Labour Party and the 2010 and 2015 elections are irrelevant. Now that he does have the ability to influence things he has made them worse.
The 'idiotic rule change'  was originally instigated by the Blairite 'Progress' group based on the French Socialist Party model and intended to forever marginalise the left in the Labour Party.  That it backfired so magnificently is delicious, in my opinion! Seems 'Democracy' is only acceptable to 'moderates' when it works in their favour.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5136 on: March 21, 2017, 10:13:45 am »
The 'idiotic rule change'  was originally instigated by the Blairite 'Progress' group based on the French Socialist Party model and intended to forever marginalise the left in the Labour Party. That it backfired so magnificently is delicious, in my opinion! Seems 'Democracy' is only acceptable to 'moderates' when it works in their favour.

So you're content/amused with a Tory government for the next generation?

Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5137 on: March 21, 2017, 10:18:32 am »
So you're content/amused with a Tory government for the next generation?
We were stuck with Thatcher because the 'moderates' in the Labour Party got a titty lip on and fucked off and formed the SDP. We had to wait while Kinnock and his ilk 'reformed' the party. Well now, the left are reforming the party. It might take a while but that's what's happening in my opinion.

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5138 on: March 21, 2017, 10:21:06 am »
We were stuck with Thatcher because the 'moderates' in the Labour Party got a titty lip on and fucked off and formed the SDP. We had to wait while Kinnock and his ilk 'reformed' the party. Well now, the left are reforming the party. It might take a while but that's what's happening in my opinion.
As you bring up putting up with Thatcher, that gives a decent reference point - would you be content with 11 more years of Theresa May and 18 years of Tory Government while the left reform the Labour Party?

Offline whiteboots

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5139 on: March 21, 2017, 10:23:41 am »
Well now, the left are reforming the party. It might take a while but that's what's happening in my opinion.

Or is it just the membership which are reforming?

The PLP is rudderless, the electorate have been deserting us in droves.

Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5140 on: March 21, 2017, 10:26:17 am »
As you bring up putting up with Thatcher, that gives a decent reference point - would you be content with 11 more years of Theresa May and 18 years of Tory Government while the left reform the Labour Party?
It wont take that long. If the 'moderates' had shut the fuck up and got on with attacking the Tories instead of throwing their dummies out of the pram and attacking their own leadership, we would be a lot closer to power.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5141 on: March 21, 2017, 10:30:51 am »
Or is it just the membership which are reforming?

The PLP is rudderless, the electorate have been deserting us in droves.
The electorate deserted us after the SDP formed and Thatchers Falklands killed us off.  Was it worth reforming the party then in the 'moderates' image?

Offline classycarra

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5142 on: March 21, 2017, 10:32:46 am »
It wont take that long. If the 'moderates' had shut the fuck up and got on with attacking the Tories instead of throwing their dummies out of the pram and attacking their own leadership, we would be a lot closer to power.

Well, that is a daft suggestion that doesn't offer any supporting argument.

Even before the (well earned) vote of no confidence, Corbyn was well down on all previous Labour leader's polls during a Tory government. Including being significantly lower even than they were under Ed Milliband's lead, and even that wasn't even enough to win.

I see no reason why it wouldn't take that long. You didn't say whether you would be content, or still considering the infighting delicious, in those time frames

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5143 on: March 21, 2017, 10:38:25 am »
See the numerous polls showing Corbyn's current popularity within the Labour party to be at historic levels. Corbyn isn't an anomaly in the party. He is the party. This is what the Labour party is.
Why? Then the Labour Party is dead.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5144 on: March 21, 2017, 10:40:35 am »
It wont take that long. If the 'moderates' had shut the fuck up and got on with attacking the Tories instead of throwing their dummies out of the pram and attacking their own leadership, we would be a lot closer to power.

Really?  After all the information in the public domain about shadow secretaries agreeing policy with their leader, only for him to unilaterally change position in some random interview without telling anybody - completely undermining his shadow ministers' positions - and you think they are the ones who should stfu and get on with attacking the Tories?

Just what the hell has JC done to hold the Tories to account?  The man has effectively rubber stamped every major fucking decision this Tory government has proposed so far.

As Alan_X has said: the man has had about as much influence and effect as party leader as he has in his entire career as a backbencher
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5145 on: March 21, 2017, 10:41:48 am »
It wont take that long. If the 'moderates' had shut the fuck up and got on with attacking the Tories instead of throwing their dummies out of the pram and attacking their own leadership, we would be a lot closer to power.

When you look back you wonder how drunk you were when you felt that Corbyn should be the leader. I felt that and I feel a shudder everytime I remember backing him. When he first lined up then you should have been able to see the signs.

He has been massively incompetent and there is no other way to sugar coat it. He has made mistake after mistake and illustrated no communication skills, persuasion or political nous. If I were in my mid 70's and I was as bad at a job as him considering how long he has done it I would consider my life to have been a failure.

Since he has become leader my respect for him has gone to the point now that I absolutely hate his voice, his face, his clothes, his name and now even the party he represents. He is as deluded as Donald trump and his fans are like Trump's fans.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5146 on: March 21, 2017, 10:43:47 am »
It wont take that long. If the 'moderates' had shut the fuck up and got on with attacking the Tories instead of throwing their dummies out of the pram and attacking their own leadership, we would be a lot closer to power.

actually think labour is decades from power under the present leadership,
Britain is a conservative nation  with a small c.
whilst corbyn and his acolytes might enthuse students etc the vast majority of voters don`t rate him .
 

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5147 on: March 21, 2017, 10:48:30 am »
Well, that is a daft suggestion that doesn't offer any supporting argument.

Even before the (well earned) vote of no confidence, Corbyn was well down on all previous Labour leader's polls during a Tory government. Including being significantly lower even than they were under Ed Milliband's lead, and even that wasn't even enough to win.

I see no reason why it wouldn't take that long. You didn't say whether you would be content, or still considering the infighting delicious, in those time frames
Labour was never going to regain power at the next election. Not after the wipeout in Scotland. Definitely not after the Brexit vote that divided the Labour electorate. No matter who was Leader of the party. If there was a time for any section of the party  to reform it in its own likeness , its now.  It just so happens that its the lefts chance, due to the delicious irony of the 'moderates' trying to marginalise forever the left.           

Offline Joe Public

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5148 on: March 21, 2017, 10:51:25 am »
actually think labour is decades from power under the present leadership,
Britain is a conservative nation  with a small c.
whilst corbyn and his acolytes might enthuse students etc the vast majority of voters don`t rate him .
 
Corbyn wont be leader for decades. The electorate couldnt stand Kinnock either but the fucker led us to 2 election defeats. Apparently though, he was great and saved the party!

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5149 on: March 21, 2017, 10:54:13 am »
Why? Then the Labour Party is dead.

It probably is, its well on the way to irrelevance now.

Theresa May appears far more concerned about the Daily Mail and her own lunatics on the backbenches than she does with anything Labour have to say these days.

Its not exactly surprising, I don't think anyone outside of Labour's core support really cares what the leadership of the party has to say, unless its something the right wing press take the piss out of.

So much for moving the debate to the left.

We're going to end up with the Tories in power for a generation and when an opposition against them does eventually get into power, I wouldn't have money on it being the Labour party.

Good to see Corbyn's supporters calling for the PLP to be more active in attacking the Tories though, maybe that's some subconscious recognition that the glorious leader is completely fucking incapable of it.

Offline Mag Hull

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5150 on: March 21, 2017, 10:56:33 am »

Quote from: Buenaventura on Today at 08:26:31 AM

It's almost as if Labour didn't lose the last 3 elections, isn't it? It was all going so well until Corbyn came along.

My neighbours goldfish died yesterday. It was happy and alive until Corbyn killed it. The bastard.



Quote from: Joe Public on Today at 10:26:17 AM

It wont take that long. If the 'moderates' had shut the fuck up and got on with attacking the Tories instead of throwing their dummies out of the pram and attacking their own leadership, we would be a lot closer to power.


Is it just me or does Alec Guinness in "Kind Hearts & Coronets" spring to mind?
Get your fucking hedge cut!!!!

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5151 on: March 21, 2017, 10:56:42 am »
It probably is, its well on the way to irrelevance now.

Theresa May appears far more concerned about the Daily Mail and her own lunatics on the backbenches than she does with anything Labour have to say these days.

Its not exactly surprising, I don't think anyone outside of Labour's core support really cares what the leadership of the party has to say, unless its something the right wing press take the piss out of.

So much for moving the debate to the left.

We're going to end up with the Tories in power for a generation and when an opposition against them does eventually get into power, I wouldn't have money on it being the Labour party.

Good to see Corbyn's supporters calling for the PLP to be more active in attacking the Tories though, maybe that's some subconscious recognition that the glorious leader is completely fucking incapable of it.

That's their fucking job!  ::)

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5152 on: March 21, 2017, 11:00:13 am »
Quote from: Buenaventura on Today at 08:26:31 AM

It's almost as if Labour didn't lose the last 3 elections, isn't it? It was all going so well until Corbyn came along.

My neighbours goldfish died yesterday. It was happy and alive until Corbyn killed it. The bastard.



Quote from: Joe Public on Today at 10:26:17 AM

It wont take that long. If the 'moderates' had shut the fuck up and got on with attacking the Tories instead of throwing their dummies out of the pram and attacking their own leadership, we would be a lot closer to power.


Is it just me or does Alec Guinness in "Kind Hearts & Coronets" spring to mind?
Is that your contribution to the discussion?  :boring

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5153 on: March 21, 2017, 11:01:18 am »
That's their fucking job!  ::)

What's Corbyn's job out of interest?

Because I'm struggling to see whatever he's meant to be doing beyond pushing us towards a Hard Brexit.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5154 on: March 21, 2017, 11:04:59 am »
What's Corbyn's job out of interest?

Because I'm struggling to see whatever he's meant to be doing beyond pushing us towards a Hard Brexit.
What's that got to do with the PLP getting asked to do their fucking job and attack the Tories? Seriously mate, if they aren't doing that  basic, what the fuck are they there for?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5155 on: March 21, 2017, 11:05:15 am »
Labour was never going to regain power at the next election. Not after the wipeout in Scotland. Definitely not after the Brexit vote that divided the Labour electorate. No matter who was Leader of the party. If there was a time for any section of the party  to reform it in its own likeness , its now.  It just so happens that its the lefts chance, due to the delicious irony of the 'moderates' trying to marginalise forever the left.           
Ok, so say they can't win in 2020, get a new leader in now who has balanced policies and can make a competent argument for the economy. Give him/her time to set out a strategy to win after 2020 and even narrow the gap in 2020 and possibly stop the Tories winning a majority.

With Corbyn supporters they are just handing the Tories getting a huge mandate. 2020 could look absolutely terrible and on here on election night no doubt people will be absolutely disgusted with Corbyn and the beating they will have taken. The fact is Corbyn can not win a majority to put Labour back into power.

I'd like to see a competent opposition right now to make the Tories have to think more about what they do.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5156 on: March 21, 2017, 11:06:39 am »
Is that your contribution to the discussion?  :boring

As far as Trolls are concerned - Yup
Get your fucking hedge cut!!!!

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5157 on: March 21, 2017, 11:08:25 am »
What's that got to do with the PLP getting asked to do their fucking job and attack the Tories? Seriously mate, if they aren't doing that  basic, what the fuck are they there for?

The PLP have been attacking the Tories, its just nobody's listening anymore because the party is a bit of a joke in case you haven't noticed

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5158 on: March 21, 2017, 11:08:30 am »
As far as Trolls are concerned - Yup
Different opinion, Troll?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5159 on: March 21, 2017, 11:16:10 am »
Ok, so say they can't win in 2020, get a new leader in now who has balanced policies and can make a competent argument for the economy. Give him/her time to set out a strategy to win after 2020 and even narrow the gap in 2020 and possibly stop the Tories winning a majority.

With Corbyn supporters they are just handing the Tories getting a huge mandate. 2020 could look absolutely terrible and on here on election night no doubt people will be absolutely disgusted with Corbyn and the beating they will have taken. The fact is Corbyn can not win a majority to put Labour back into power.

I'd like to see a competent opposition right now to make the Tories have to think more about what they do.
The Left can't get a leader in now. That's why McDonnell is trying to get the rule changed to 5% of the PLP nominating someone.  Get a Left leader in, left policies, game on, in my opinion. (No Labour leader can get a majority at the next election, mate. In my opinion anyway. It was hard enough at the last election. And that is before you factor in the wipeout in Scotland and the divide in Labour support over Brexit.)