Topic: Champions League Quarter Finals 2nd Leg - Tuesday & Wednesday

[Hannibal]

So are Arteta, Pacheco, Reina and Fabregas immigrants in Spain?

He's talking about youth players, it's very hard for English clubs to get young non EU players in.  Players like Eto'o joining Madrid when he was 17, Alves showing up at Sevilla at 18, Kaka at Milan at 18 etc.  There's no doubt Barca have done extremely well with what they've been given but the rules are tilted against English clubs most of the time especially in terms of competition for young players and catchment area. 

Someone on here made a great post a while back about how players like Iniesta who's from Albacete (400+ kilometers from Barca), Puyol 200+ km, Pedro 2k+ Tenerife would be out of the catchment area for clubs like us.  Then throw in the only serious competition for players to Barcelona is Espanyol where as the area around Liverpool are just filled with Premier League clubs, Everton right next door and the 2 Mancs down the road not to mention around 40% of our catchment area is water.

[hesbighesred]

We have as many South Americans (Insua, Fabio, Mascherano) as they do (Messi, Maxwell and Alves) who play any sort of regular role in their first team squad.

Note that Insua, Fabio and Lucas all have 2nd nationalities - we wouldn't have been able to sign them otherwise.

EDIT:

I should add also that I do have plenty of time for Barca, don't get me wrong, but to try and paint them as anything other than an obsenely rich uber-club who use that massive wealth to obtain a huge competitive advantage is ludicrous. Credit to them for not going down the Real road, and credit that they do have significant numbers of Catalans playing for them, but lets not make them out to be something they emphatically are not.

[hesbighesred]

He's talking about youth players, it's very hard for English clubs to get young non EU players in.  Players like Eto'o joining Madrid when he was 17, Alves showing up at Sevilla at 18, Kaka at Milan at 18 etc.  There's no doubt Barca have done extremely well with what they've been given but the rules are tilted against English clubs most of the time especially in terms of competition for young players and catchment area. 

Someone on here made a great post a while back about how players like Iniesta who's from Albacete (400+ kilometers from Barca), Puyol 200+ km, Pedro 2k+ Tenerife would be out of the catchment area for clubs like us.  Then throw in the only serious competition for players to Barcelona is Espanyol where as the area around Liverpool are just filled with Premier League clubs, Everton right next door and the 2 Mancs down the road not to mention around 40% of our catchment area is water.

Bang on.

[AnotherSpanishfan]

Barca pay the third highest wages in the world sport after the New York Yankees and Real Madrid. 

Is this restricted to the football team? or as a Club? You have to remember FC Barcelona also have basketball, handball, hockey and futsal teams.

[hesbighesred]

Is this restricted to the football team? or as a Club? You have to remember FC Barcelona also have basketball, handball, hockey and futsal teams.

It's just the football club, those figures are done as an average of '1st team' wage:

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ARGSS12.jpg

[Livid]

Is this restricted to the football team? or as a Club? You have to remember FC Barcelona also have basketball, handball, hockey and futsal teams.

It was average wage, so your argument is even more damning if true.

EDIT: Fucking quick fingers strikes again.

[redy]

It was average wage, so your argument is even more damning if true.

EDIT: Fucking quick fingers strikes again.

[AnotherSpanishfan]

It's just the football club, those figures are done as an average of '1st team' wage:

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ARGSS12.jpg

Fair enough.  If those figures are accurate at least it's nice to know that us the Yankees and the Lakers are getting our moneys worth

[killer-heels]

Lists like that make me hate Baseball and Basketball even more.

[Xxavi]

Someone posted earlier that Barca have the 3d heighest wage bill of any sporting team in the world, behind the NY Yankees and Real Madrid: http://major-league-baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/richest-sport-stars

It's a lot easier to keep academy stars on whatever wages they may be on if they know that if they progress they will be awesomely well rewarded. West Ham have historically had a very good youth system - if they had the capacity to pay the wages you do they could well be the best team in England right now.

The academy stuff - I know your academy isn't stuffed full of 12 year old Africans - though that doesn't change the fact that it could be, and that an English club would struggle hugely to produce a Messi thanks to our work permit laws - that's why I also pointed out that, also unlike English clubs, you get to pick freely from the whole of Spain, which is a big reason why so many La Liga players are produced by Real or Barca. In England (though the rules are bent quite often) players must be selected from a cathment area within a '90 minute drive' of the city.

In Liverpool's case, this radius includes Everton, and overlaps with some of Man Utds, covering a metropolitan area with a population of maybe a couple of million - still, on the flip side us and Everton have first choice on any mermaid Wayne Rooney's that might be uncovered under the Irish sea.

Tell me, how many of your youth academy kids and graduates are actually Catalan?

Of course, there is a flip side in that English clubs can offer pro contracts sooner, but this only gives us an advantage when players hit 16, and even then it only applies to EU players. Compared to any given English club Barca and Real enjoy staggering advantages - advantages which Platini and Co seem oddly quiet about when talking about issues like financial doping, considering that Spanish clubs enjoy (by English standards) extremely dubious relationships with Goverment (with goverment effectively subsidising wage bills http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8W4H85AFqXwC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=Barcelona+wage+bill&source=bl&ots=iznLceh2s5&sig=odxQkvGk2hKXcx7mBvziQvMBI2M&hl=en&ei=ca60S7SJI5H20gSayu0r&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Barcelona%20wage%20bill&f=false) and of course the aforementioned and staggeringly unfair TV deal, without which your top academy products would very likely be tempted away by the far greater earning capacity of English clubs.

So not really 'only half true', is it? The advantages are exactly as I've described. The fact that Barca don't happen to be stuffing their academy full of foreigners at the moment doesn't change the fact that they could do if they wanted to, an option we don't have, just as we don't have the option to cherry pick from the whole of England like you and Real can and do, while negotiating your own TV rights thus making it impossible for the rest of your league to even remotely compete with you.

I love Messi, for me he is the best player I have watched. But let's not overestimate him. This team can be and is good with or without Messi or Ronaldinho etc. Praising Messi too much always goes together, or so it seems, with diminishing role of others. Messi is the only regular foreign Barca youth product in a decade. In a freaking 10 year period, and yet everybody would mention this.

I can't argue that English clubs wouldn't be able to get "a Messi" as easily as Barca could, but Barca has up to 8 first team youth products right now, and many others in other clubs or played before, and among them, it is only him who is outside of Spain.

Anyway, its all comes down to arguments, but Liverpool has tons of foreign kids in their Academy/Reserve team, so does Arsenal, ManU etc. Its not only about finding the right kids, which is important no doubt. You found him, say Pacheco, or Arsenal got their young players, sometimes they pay for them a lot, and so what? It doesn't guarantee you absolutely nothing. They might lose their spark if they are not trained right or brought into first team with care at a right moment.

PS As for Barca paying wages, we do pay a lot. But this statistics doesn't tell the whole story. In recent years, all our leaders, Iniesta, Pique, Xavi, Messi and Valdes signed contracts far exceeding their previous ones, due to them being really world class and deserving it and Barca winning everything (I would imagine the statistics includes bonuses, too). Go back 2 years ago, I am confident we wouldn't be in top 5 in the world in terms of wages, with Madrid, Chelsea, Arsenal, ManU and Milan being ahead of us. Milan greatly reduced their wages in past 2 years, we greatly increased. These things go in hand with the performances and achievements.

[Xxavi]

Tell me, how many of your youth academy kids and graduates are actually Catalan?

Current Catalan first team players are Valdes, Pique, Puyol, Xavi, Busquets and Bojan Krkic.
5 of them are definite first team players this season, with Krkic being a substitute. Now, tell me another club with 5 local kids playing for them?

I am not even counting other Catalan players we produced before or the ones playing for other teams.

PS Its funny though that you claim Barca's advantage in youth Academy is that we can sign foreign kids, and when you are confronted with the fact that in past decade, only one foreigner academy product was a starter for Barca, you change it to "It doesn't change the fact that they can sign them if they want to". What are you on about? Yes, we can, but your statements were regarding present time. I.e. currently Barca are reaping the advantages of being able to sign foreign kids.

So why do you cherry pick Messi among all the products of Barca that are playing around the world?

[rafathegaffa83]

I would have been interested to see what the possession statistics were for the opening twenty minutes of that Arsenal-Barcelona match. Barcelona may have been the away team, but they absolutely dominated possession and shots. You can only think that will improve at the Camp Nou, as Arsenal are not a team built to play a defensive, counter-attacking game.

[UntouchableLuis]

I doubt some of those Arsenal players are fit enough to be honest. Wouldn't surprise me to see Fabregas hobble off at some point during the game.

Well does 90 minutes count?   

[hesbighesred]

Xavi - Barca's youth system is awesome, I'm delighted, for example, that we've hired Borrell and are clearly going to implement some aspects of it. The number of genuine Catalans in the side, and the commitment to local youth, not just talented youth, is again fantastic, and something to be admired and applauded.

Fair enough if you feel I ducked the 'foreign' issue, I don't think I did - I never suggested your academy was stuffed full of foreigners, merely that you have a massive advantage when it comes to bringing through players from outside the EU. It may only be Messi at the moment, but that's still a pretty spectacular exception, and one that would have been nigh on impossible for an English club to attract - not because we aren't attractive to kids of his ilk, but because of work permit laws.

On the other hand, you seem to have completely ignored my comments about being able to pick from the whole of Spain for your academy, and the fact that the best won't leave because you can afford to pay them absolutely collossal fortunes. I totally forgot about the fact that you have a B and C team in professional leagues - another spectacular advantage you have over English clubs, and indeed something that totally skews academy development in Spain in favour of yourselves and Real Madrid.

What you do is hugely impressive, but it wouldn't be possible here, and as I say, while it deserves praise, it should be put in the context of a massively rich club that gains an enourmous amount from being able to negotiate it's own TV rights. The Catalans that do come through also benefit hugely from having to compete against the cream of Spain to get there, and unlike English clubs kids can join you knowing that they will get a chance in a professional league appropriate to their level - something which the top clubs in England can only offer via loan deals, and the top Italian clubs also have to do via loan deals and dual ownership deals.

As for your wages being much smaller five years ago - are you sure about that? Unfortunately I can't find the figures but I know you had players like Deco and Ronaldinho, and it's absolutely certain that they didn't join Barca JUST for the climate and nightlife

[hesbighesred]

Just to note, Liverpool currently have two locals as first team regulars, which given the population of Liverpool is less than 1/3rd of Barcelona's actually makes for a superior ratio than your 5 first team regulars! (note, my tongue is slightly in my cheek here). There is a serious point though - Catalonia has a population of 7million plus, and you compete for that group with Espanyol, plus you are free to pick from the rest of Spain. Liverpool are free to pick from within a 90 minute drive of Liverpool, which given that the whole North West of England region has a population of just under 7million plus about 937,456 professional football clubs (slight exaggeration ) and given that our youth system hasn't been that well run seems pretty impressive, to be fair.

[Xxavi]

Xavi - Barca's youth system is awesome, I'm delighted, for example, that we've hired Borrell and are clearly going to implement some aspects of it. The number of genuine Catalans in the side, and the commitment to local youth, not just talented youth, is again fantastic, and something to be admired and applauded.

Fair enough if you feel I ducked the 'foreign' issue, I don't think I did - I never suggested your academy was stuffed full of foreigners, merely that you have a massive advantage when it comes to bringing through players from outside the EU. It may only be Messi at the moment, but that's still a pretty spectacular exception, and one that would have been nigh on impossible for an English club to attract - not because we aren't attractive to kids of his ilk, but because of work permit laws.

On the other hand, you seem to have completely ignored my comments about being able to pick from the whole of Spain for your academy, and the fact that the best won't leave because you can afford to pay them absolutely collossal fortunes. I totally forgot about the fact that you have a B and C team in professional leagues - another spectacular advantage you have over English clubs, and indeed something that totally skews academy development in Spain in favour of yourselves and Real Madrid.

What you do is hugely impressive, but it wouldn't be possible here, and as I say, while it deserves praise, it should be put in the context of a massively rich club that gains an enourmous amount from being able to negotiate it's own TV rights. The Catalans that do come through also benefit hugely from having to compete against the cream of Spain to get there, and unlike English clubs kids can join you knowing that they will get a chance in a professional league appropriate to their level - something which the top clubs in England can only offer via loan deals, and the top Italian clubs also have to do via loan deals and dual ownership deals.

As for your wages being much smaller five years ago - are you sure about that? Unfortunately I can't find the figures but I know you had players like Deco and Ronaldinho, and it's absolutely certain that they didn't join Barca JUST for the climate and nightlife

Barca indeed can choose from all of Spain. And the world as a matter of fact, which we started doing more often recently.

As for wages, something tells me that bonuses are included in that link you provided. Barca paid a lot of bonuses because of 6 trophies we won last season. The base salary of our players are surely less than, in fact far less than, Chelsea's. And yes, I am sure that 2-3 years ago, our wage bill was nothing like current one. Xavi, Valdes, Iniesta etc. were earning laughable wages for their quality not long ago, multiple times than what Chelsea stars earned. I am certain of this, though I will have to dig online to back up my arguments. Only recently they were awarded high wages.

Right now, out of the first team, Busquets and Pedro are still on low wages.

Again, don't confuse the base salary with the bonuses. Any team that wins everything there is to win, will have to pay shitloads of bonuses. No way we are the second behind Madrid on base salary. Chelsea has entire squad of 20+ people made of 20 million+ transfer, no way they are sitting on low wages.

[Xxavi]

Just to note, Liverpool currently have two locals as first team regulars, which given the population of Liverpool is less than 1/3rd of Barcelona's actually makes for a superior ratio than your 5 first team regulars! (note, my tongue is slightly in my cheek here). There is a serious point though - Catalonia has a population of 7million plus, and you compete for that group with Espanyol, plus you are free to pick from the rest of Spain. Liverpool are free to pick from within a 90 minute drive of Liverpool, which given that the whole North West of England region has a population of just under 7million plus about 937,456 professional football clubs (slight exaggeration ) and given that our youth system hasn't been that well run seems pretty impressive, to be fair.

OK, Liverpool is very good at developing youth players. Looking at population ratio, it seems that Liverpool are the best in the world.

Not trying to belittle, but I hope you believe in this. Its only the fact that Liverpool has small population and no money that there are no youngsters (no money is not an argument, academy doesn't require you to pay kids millions). All the Hungarians, Spanish etc. kids in Liverpool reserves are obviously no mark players and they can't be considered in this argument, because by this time, the best ones are picked by other teams.

I am having a hard time to believe in this story. Anyway, long debate, let's see how it will work in future.

[ceros]

Current Catalan first team players are Valdes, Pique, Puyol, Xavi, Busquets and Bojan Krkic.
5 of them are definite first team players this season, with Krkic being a substitute. Now, tell me another club with 5 local kids playing for them?

Athletic Club de Bilbao. All season, every season.

[muyuu]

I take it i'm in the minority with regard to Alves. One of the most over rated footballers on the planet imo. He put in a good performance last night but most of the time i've seen him play for Barca he's been very hot and cold. Shots and free kicks into row z, dreadful deliveries and sheer laziness to track back at times, this clearly isn't always the case but most of the time i watch him, he rarely impresses me as a world class right back that many make him out to be. I'd take a fully fit Johnson or Maicon over him any day of the week.

He had absolute shockers against Chelsea last year. I think he was too exposed and nervous these matches. He's usually more like yesterday, to be honest. Totally world class, but he has bad games every now and then, which is why Maicon is ahead of him for Brazil.

[hesbighesred]

Xxavi - I said clearly I was joking (well, there was a point in there but I was trying to be humerous) - I'm just saying that population and the area you pick from gives you, and Real, a big advantage compared to English clubs. I said that Liverpool's lack of youths coming through has something to do with poor management for a good long while - though the serious point in what I said before is that considering our limitations and failings the two class players we do have is not a terrible return by any means.

As for wages, yes maybe your young players were paid peanuts - and what about the likes of Ronalidinho? Well done for paying bonuses, but why are you comparing to Chelsea as if they're typical? You pay big wages and pretty much always have done.

Anyway, for the last time, I'm not trying to attack Barcelona or slate you or anything - I'm just pointing out that you are a very, very rich club with huge advantages - especially the TV rights gives you a massive advantage over the rest of Spain (bar Real) that again English clubs don't enjoy.

I do have plenty of respect for Barca and the way you play, but you are a big and rich club. Good luck for the rest of the CL!

[KUNGFUDANCER]

arsenal will be without their three best players van persie, fabregas and arshavin for the return leg. imagine barca without messi, xavi and iniesta?

[AnotherSpanishfan]

Athletic Club de Bilbao. All season, every season.

He meant top clubs.

[ceros]

He meant top clubs.

Ouch!

... but I knew that was coming. Still, we must be - of course we are - the only club (top or otherwise) in la liga, premier and seria A which only has local players and we've always been in the top division. That's big in itself 

[steveeastend]

Here´s a question i am really interested what other posters think on?

Does anybody think that the performance of Manchester United at Bayern was due to the fact that

 
Ferguson played three holding midfielders (wrong tactic),

players just having an off day

or Munich just too strong (first eleven not strong enough)?

[Xxavi]

Athletic Club de Bilbao. All season, every season.

Hands up, that's a good answer.

But not sure how many players of theirs are Real Sociedad or other Basque team products. What do you say?

[Xxavi]

Xxavi - I said clearly I was joking (well, there was a point in there but I was trying to be humerous) - I'm just saying that population and the area you pick from gives you, and Real, a big advantage compared to English clubs. I said that Liverpool's lack of youths coming through has something to do with poor management for a good long while - though the serious point in what I said before is that considering our limitations and failings the two class players we do have is not a terrible return by any means.

As for wages, yes maybe your young players were paid peanuts - and what about the likes of Ronalidinho? Well done for paying bonuses, but why are you comparing to Chelsea as if they're typical? You pay big wages and pretty much always have done.

Anyway, for the last time, I'm not trying to attack Barcelona or slate you or anything - I'm just pointing out that you are a very, very rich club with huge advantages - especially the TV rights gives you a massive advantage over the rest of Spain (bar Real) that again English clubs don't enjoy.

I do have plenty of respect for Barca and the way you play, but you are a big and rich club. Good luck for the rest of the CL!

Thanks for your wishes.

I just cannot believe that we are the second highest paying club. Yes, there was a time when we had Figo, Rivaldo and Kluivert etc. all on high wages. But since direction of the team turned towards academy players, we didn't have to bring them for a lot of money and keep them happy by giving them $$$. It's just fact.

Xavi for a long period was getting something like 2 million a year. Iniesta had a contract extension only a year ago or so, before that he was on a relatively small wages. Ronaldinho's, Deco's, EtoO's, Rivaldo's, Overmars' and Henry's of the world were brought for a lot of money as accomplished stars and we had to pay them more than what they were earning before. So yes, it made our wage bill high.

But things changed when we started putting emphasis on youth products, that is what I am debating. Because they became stars, and they had a long way until they were considered stars and they were given money they deserve. Xavi got a good contract at the age of 28 (still not in top 10 or 20 in the world I believe), Valdes got at the age of 27 etc.

PS I gave Chelsea as an example but same can be said about Inter, Milan of 2-3 years ago, Real Madrid and others.

[Xxavi]

Here´s a question i am really interested what other posters think on?

Does anybody think that the performance of Manchester United at Bayern was due to the fact that

 
Ferguson played three holding midfielders (wrong tactic),

players just having an off day

or Munich just too strong (first eleven not strong enough)?

I thought they scored too soon. It happens, and then you take your foot off the pedal. Same thing happened to Barca. Once you lose tight control of game, it is difficult to get it back.

Don't know about the tactics part.

[KUNGFUDANCER]

Thanks for your wishes.

I just cannot believe that we are the second highest paying club.

well u have to believe it. messi and ibra are like in top 3 of highest paid wages. henry is up there too. dani alves was boguht for like 30 mil, dont know his wage. chriginski for some 30 mil. barca are very much spending and paying club.

[Slave]

Still sticking up for the little guys eh Xxavi? It's admirable.

[ceros]

Hands up, that's a good answer.

But not sure how many players of theirs are Real Sociedad or other Basque team products. What do you say?

Still Basque though but sure, we probably have 50-50% in terms of Athletic through and through kids and kids developed by other clubs in the region. Lezama (our La Masia) isn't what it used to be, we simply don't have the money. Llorente is a product of our youth system though. So is Muniain and, according to Caparros, there are another 3 players his age ready to come through so things might be looking up.

[medley]

Tuesday, 6 April 2010
Barcelona v Arsenal, (agg 2-2), QF, L2, 19:45
CSKA Moscow v Inter Milan, (agg 0-1), QF, L2, 17:30

Wednesday, 7 April 2010
Bordeaux v Lyon, (agg 1-3), QF, L2, 19:45
Man Utd v Bayern Munich, (agg 1-2), QF, L2, 19:45

Sky Sports for the 2 games tonight -- ITV for Manc game tomorrow

[RossoBianchi]

Barcelona 3-1 Arsenal
CSKA Moscow 1-1 Inter

Bordeaux 2-1 Lyon
Man Utd 2-0 Bayern

[lionel_messias]

Barcelona 6-1 Arsenal
CSKA Moscow 1-1 Inter

Bordeaux 2-2 Lyon
Man Utd 0-1 Bayern

[CHOPPER]

Borrusia Dortmund pulled it off in 97'( I think it was) so why can't Bayern.

[BazC]

Busquets is a superb midfielder. He can shield the defence but he's also excellent on the ball.
I remember him going past two Arsenal players last night with a lovely piece of skill you don't normally see from ball-winners.
He's only 21 too, so they've got that position covered for years if he carries on improving.

He's a class player; another one of their new youth break throughs I've loved watching. I think he made his full debut weeks before the CL final last season, and I think he played in it? I dunno, but he's definitely been very good.

In fact, I think he's the player I want Lucas to be at this stage; looks like he can run a game, is intelligent in possession (albeit with some lapses at times), shields the defence (but not as well as a player like Toure or Mascherano), has the ability to run with the ball...

[Phil M]

Barca 2 Arsenal 1 Messi' Bojan - Bendtner
CSKA 0 Inter 1  Eto'o

Bordeaux 1 Lyon 1
Mancs 2 Bayern 1

[Something Else]

This will be the biggest game of many of the arsenal players lives and should they fail, their title challenge will go with it, should they win, they may well win both competitions

Personally i think Barca will stuff them

[CHOPPER]

Barca 2 Arsenal 1 Messi' Bojan - Bendtner
CSKA 0 Inter 1  Eto'o

Bordeaux 1 Lyon 1
Mancs 2 Bayern 1

Care to predict the outcome of Extra Time?

[Simon C]

Can't see Arsenal winning tonight with all the injuries that have, granted Barca have Puyol and Pique missing but going forward Barca will simply have to much, I reckon 3-0.
As for the Mancs difficlut one to predict, they looked toothless for much of the game against Chelsea. If Bayern don't conceed early I can see the Mancs going out (deep sorrow)

[Dubit10]

Barcelona 5-1 Arsenal
CSKA Moscow 0-1 Inter

Bordeaux 2-2 Lyon
Man Utd 3-3 Bayern