Author Topic: Doping In Sport.. (Read 130005 times)

Kashinoda · « **Reply #120 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:29:23 pm »

Quote from: Dread Breath on July 31, 2012, 06:24:27 pm

So did a lot of other athletes while doping.

She's guilty then.

hoyden · « **Reply #121 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:30:34 pm »

Quote from: Zeb on July 31, 2012, 06:00:46 pm

It's pretty bollocks to be honest; I have a blog, I have a blog, controversial title, I have a blog.

It confuses medley with freestyle which is apples to oranges (he even seems to have thought Addlington swam in the same event). It confuses two things not being treated equally with there being no questions about either. And it seems to miss the simple recognition that the curve for most athletes is a sudden progression into the world class elite rather than an already world class athlete making a sudden further spurt beyond that. It even seems to confuse the issue that Leonard was clearly talking about superwoman in terms of performance rather than physical appearance. So, yeah, bollocks. Not saying there isn't some casual generalisations going on, but then when a nation has had three or four times the number of swimmers found doping in international tournaments than any other nation in the past generation, then it's hard to say that there isn't some grounds for suspicion when clearly extraordinary things are happening. And it is extraordinary.

It may not be nice, it may not be fair to focus on her alone given other performances, but there is some odd stuff around the young Chinese lady's performance to win the gold medal in that manner.

I've no doubt she'll be found clean this Olympics. Will be interesting to see whether that remains the case over the next 8 years.

Where did you get that from?

dave 5516 · « **Reply #122 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:31:37 pm »

Quote from: Dread Breath on July 31, 2012, 06:24:27 pm

So did a lot of other athletes while doping.

How many test's did Marion Jones pass?

Dread's right,at the top of the chain the doper's are always ahead of the tester's.I'm not saying she doped,but passing test's is not a sign of being clean.

Anywhichwayicant · « **Reply #123 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:34:25 pm »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 31, 2012, 06:31:37 pm

but passing test's is not a sign of being clean.

If it's not a sign of being clean, what is it?

hoyden · « **Reply #124 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:35:37 pm »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 31, 2012, 06:31:37 pm

How many test's did Marion Jones pass?

Dread's right,at the top of the chain the doper's are always ahead of the tester's.I'm not saying she doped,but passing test's is not a sign of being clean.

But it's the only thing an athlete can do in terms of trying to prove his/her innocence. If someone accuses you with "I know you cheated, I don't know how, but you cheated." How are you supposed to respond to that?

Dread Breath · « **Reply #125 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:37:17 pm »

Quote from: eirwen on July 31, 2012, 06:27:49 pm

If one of them is doing it, so is everyone. This talk about this country has a bad rep or whatever is just BS. Every single country has its history. Doping definitely exists but I don't believe for one second it only happens in some countries rather than others. Sports is competitive, if athletes can find a way to get around the rules, they will.

I'm not accusing the girl of doping - just pointing out that passing tests is basically meaningless at a lot of levels. I'm not sure what they do in swimming in terms of testing but the measures they have brought in there seem to be having quite an effect, with the times now back to pre-EPO levels. What is it called - biological thumbprint or something? They don't necessarily look for drugs more for what the results are in the body of taking peformance enhancers. Before they brought that in there were a lot of "insane" performances by various cyclists. I hope the performances of this Chinese woman are just signs of a freakish talent, as do most people who are fans of sport.

Kashinoda · « **Reply #126 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:38:36 pm »

The whole thing is ridiculous, nothing will prove her innocence to some. Damage well and truly done by US coaches and British press. Clare Balding can do one as well.

Anywhichwayicant · « **Reply #127 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:39:27 pm »

Quote from: Kashinoda on July 31, 2012, 06:38:36 pm

The whole thing is ridiculous, nothing will prove her innocence to some.

Yup.

It's a good thing Messi isn't a sprinter/swimmer.

Kashinoda · « **Reply #128 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:41:09 pm »

What I don't get is why didn't Phelps get this sort of scrutiny? He dominated like I've never seen in Beijing, and Americans have a massive history of doping as well.

blurred · « **Reply #129 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:41:45 pm »

Quote from: Anywhichwayucan on July 31, 2012, 06:39:27 pm

Yup.

It's a good thing Messi isn't a sprinter/swimmer.

Ah, but then we know he's been on the growth hormones...

Zeb · « **Reply #130 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:42:52 pm »

Quote from: Kashinoda on July 31, 2012, 06:19:54 pm

I know it's only Wikipedia but why do China only appear 8 times on this list, but America appear there 119 times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

Generally interested as to why there aren't more Chinese athletes aren't on there if they have such a bad reputation?

Try 1994 Asian Games and 1998 World Championships for Chinese swimmers getting caught en masse and how it followed major gold medal hauls and led to little success without the cheats. Follow that with open admissions of a major state sponsored drug system, and, well.. A girl who won a gold medal aged 13 at a world championship was found to be on EPO at 16 a month ago from out of competition testing.

As for why wiki is what it is, it's a useful tool but not a comprehensive one.

kates bush · « **Reply #131 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:43:19 pm »

If you are saying that the performance of this girl was unlike anything anyone has ever seen so she must have been on something, but that something never showed up in the doping test, then that stuff must be some outstanding shit.

Cochise · « **Reply #132 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:43:24 pm »

Ian Thorpe said when he was 15 he won at the world championships with a time of 3m 46s and the next year when he was 16 he broke the world record with a time of 3m 41s knocking 5 seconds of the previous year.

It is possible to knock off such huge times when they're young.

eirwen · « **Reply #133 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:43:45 pm »

Quote from: Dread Breath on July 31, 2012, 06:37:17 pm

I'm not accusing the girl of doping - just pointing out that passing tests is basically meaningless at a lot of levels. I'm not sure what they do in swimming in terms of testing but the measures they have brought in there seem to be having quite an effect, with the times now back to pre-EPO levels. What is it called - biological thumbprint or something? They don't necessarily look for drugs more for what the results are in the body of taking peformance enhancers. Before they brought that in there were a lot of "insane" performances by various cyclists. I hope the performances of this Chinese woman are just signs of a freakish talent, as do most people who are fans of sport.

I know what you are saying. Drug testing often falls behind. Like I said, if you believe someone is getting away with it now, you have to assume everyone is doing it. It's quite tedious really. There is no way of knowing now except to wait for future methods of testing. In that aspect nobody can be proven innocent.

But this particular athlete should not be targeted because of her nationality. Some people seem to think she is more likely to be guilty just because she's Chinese. I find that wrong.

Dread Breath · « **Reply #134 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:45:16 pm »

Quote from: Kashinoda on July 31, 2012, 06:38:36 pm

The whole thing is ridiculous, nothing will prove her innocence to some. Damage well and truly done by US coaches and British press. Clare Balding can do one as well.

I was a huge Lance Armstrong fan during his (drug-fuelled) pomp - I truly believed he was clean and just a freakish talent, aided by weight loss from cancer. I was wrong on all counts, and made to look foolish actually on these threads. Now when I see a freakish performance that seemingly dropped out of the sky I tend to shrug and hold judgement, hoping that this isn't yet another one.

I was told about a study when I did a sports science subject at university way back - the lecturer told us about a study where top-line athletes were asked whether they could take a magic pill that would guarantee an Olympic gold medal, but the side effect was they'd be dead in 10 years time. About 60% of them said they'd take the pill.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #135 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:45:29 pm »

Quote from: Anywhichwayucan on July 31, 2012, 06:34:25 pm

If it's not a sign of being clean, what is it?

Like I said,Marion Jones passed test's,160 I think,yet she now admit's she doped during her career.

Just because an athlete pass's a test isn't an indication that they're clean.

Kashinoda · « **Reply #136 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:47:20 pm »

Quote from: Pelts on July 31, 2012, 06:43:24 pm

Ian Thorpe said when he was 15 he won at the world championships with a time of 3m 46s and the next year when he was 16 he broke the world record with a time of 3m 41s knocking 5 seconds of the previous year.

It is possible to knock off such huge times when they're young.

Australia's Rice done something similar as well, totalled around 9 seconds in a year.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #137 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:47:21 pm »

Quote from: hoyden on July 31, 2012, 06:35:37 pm

But it's the only thing an athlete can do in terms of trying to prove his/her innocence. If someone accuses you with "I know you cheated, I don't know how, but you cheated." How are you supposed to respond to that?

The only answer a clean or doped athlete will give,I'm clean.

eirwen · « **Reply #138 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:48:10 pm »

Quote from: Dread Breath on July 31, 2012, 06:45:16 pm

I was told about a study when I did a sports science subject at university way back - the lecturer told us about a study where top-line athletes were asked whether they could take a magic pill that would guarantee an Olympic gold medal, but the side effect was they'd be dead in 10 years time. About 60% of them said they'd take the pill.

Exactly if a new drug exists now that can beat the test, most athletes would be on it. Sometimes you may find out later, sometimes you never find out.

Anywhichwayicant · « **Reply #139 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:50:15 pm »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 31, 2012, 06:45:29 pm

Just because an athlete pass's a test isn't an indication that they're clean.

Again, this is making no sense.

An athlete passing a test is an indication that they're clean.

Ziltoid · « **Reply #140 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:51:41 pm »

Quote from: Kashinoda on July 31, 2012, 06:41:09 pm

What I don't get is why didn't Phelps get this sort of scrutiny? He dominated like I've never seen in Beijing, and Americans have a massive history of doping as well.

Completely agree, why aren't we looking back to 2004/2008 and looking at Phelps in the pool. So what if he got through the drugs test, maybe he was top of the "pyramid"?

Until she's tested positive don't post shite, and if she does then you can come back with your big smiley face.

As Pelts (and Thorpe) said above you can destroy your best in this sport at an early age.

Kashinoda · « **Reply #141 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:52:59 pm »

Quote from: Dread Breath on July 31, 2012, 06:45:16 pm

I was a huge Lance Armstrong fan during his (drug-fuelled) pomp - I truly believed he was clean and just a freakish talent, aided by weight loss from cancer. I was wrong on all counts, and made to look foolish actually on these threads. Now when I see a freakish performance that seemingly dropped out of the sky I tend to shrug and hold judgement, hoping that this isn't yet another one.

I was told about a study when I did a sports science subject at university way back - the lecturer told us about a study where top-line athletes were asked whether they could take a magic pill that would guarantee an Olympic gold medal, but the side effect was they'd be dead in 10 years time. About 60% of them said they'd take the pill.

People saying and people doing are two very different things, so I'd take that study with a pinch of salt.

As for Lance Armstrong, it's very disappointing but I wouldn't say you were made to look foolish... everyone's innocent until proven guilty why should anyone expect otherwise. But I completely understand your stance in this regard, id lose a bit of faith if I'd been supporting, essentially, a lie.

Dread Breath · « **Reply #142 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:55:19 pm »

Quote from: eirwen on July 31, 2012, 06:43:45 pm

I know what you are saying. Drug testing often falls behind. Like I said, if you believe someone is getting away with it now, you have to assume everyone is doing it. It's quite tedious really. There is no way of knowing now except to wait for future methods of testing. In that aspect nobody can be proven innocent.

But this particular athlete should not be targeted because of her nationality. Some people seem to think she is more likely to be guilty just because she's Chinese. I find that wrong.

Yeah, there might be a racial element to it - but I think its actually more because its a communist country. There are records in women's track and field that still stand today and are held by East Germany - of course nothing was proved at the time - we are now well aware that there was systematic doping approved by the government, often without athletes consent or knowledge. Of course there are also records held by American females from the 1980's in track and field that still stand today. I think the difference is is that the US government did not approve or sanction systematic doping of its athletes, while communist governments did. The amount of public knowledge and probity into communist governments and capitalist ones is totally different - and I'm not saying that everything is sweet as pie in countries like the USA, but rather that a one-party country tends to have a bureaucracy and ruling elite that tend to be a little, ahem, opaque. In that sense it isn't a racial issue at all, more the fact who governs the Chinese and how they do it. And you can bet your bottom dollar there is a heavy push internally for China to be the "greatest nation" (more so than in occidental countries) in terms of medals won, if for nothing else than propaganda purposes.

BIGdavalad · « **Reply #143 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:56:16 pm »

Quote from: Anywhichwayucan on July 31, 2012, 06:50:15 pm

Again, this is making no sense.

An athlete passing a test is an indication that they're clean.

It's not, it's an indication that they're not on anything that can currently be picked up on tests. As said above, plenty of athletes have passed plenty of tests and later been caught or admitted to drug use.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #144 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:58:07 pm »

Quote from: Anywhichwayucan on July 31, 2012, 06:50:15 pm

Again, this is making no sense.

An athlete passing a test is an indication that they're clean.

No it's not.If a doped athlete pass's a test all's they have done is beat the test,it doesn't mean they competed clean.

Richard Virenque never tested positive,won jersey's and stage's in the TDF.He was part of a team wide doping programme he admitted this.

Does the fact he never tested positive make him clean.?

What I'm saying sound's cynical it come's from year's of watching cycling,but just because they say they are clean doesn't mean they are.

eirwen · « **Reply #145 on:** July 31, 2012, 06:59:27 pm »

Quote from: Anywhichwayucan on July 31, 2012, 06:50:15 pm

Again, this is making no sense.

An athlete passing a test is an indication that they're clean.

Drug testing can fall behind and there are always new drugs that cannot be tested at present. But this argument is also pointless because every single athlete in history could have been on drugs and just never found out.
The speculation is endless. If people want to enjoy sports, they shouldn't dwell on it too much imo.

Bob Loblaw · « **Reply #146 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:01:29 pm »

She probably is clean right now. But what about during all those months of preparation where the random drug testers can't get near her?

eirwen · « **Reply #147 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:03:59 pm »

Quote from: Dread Breath on July 31, 2012, 06:55:19 pm

Yeah, there might be a racial element to it - but I think its actually more because its a communist country. There are records in women's track and field that still stand today and are held by East Germany - of course nothing was proved at the time - we are now well aware that there was systematic doping approved by the government, often without athletes consent or knowledge. Of course there are also records held by American females from the 1980's in track and field that still stand today. I think the difference is is that the US government did not approve or sanction systematic doping of its athletes, while communist governments did. The amount of public knowledge and probity into communist governments and capitalist ones is totally different - and I'm not saying that everything is sweet as pie in countries like the USA, but rather that a one-party country tends to have a bureaucracy and ruling elite that tend to be a little, ahem, opaque. In that sense it isn't a racial issue at all, more the fact who governs the Chinese and how they do it. And you can bet your bottom dollar there is a heavy push internally for China to be the "greatest nation" (more so than in occidental countries) in terms of medals won, if for nothing else than propaganda purposes.

Racism, xenophobia, doesn't matter. The point is one should not be judged guilty by association.
China had a history of government sanctioned doping, many US athletes were doping individually. Doesn't make one more innocent.

Kashinoda · « **Reply #148 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:04:36 pm »

Poor English day here I think.

Anywhichwayucan said "An athlete passing a test is an indication that they're clean."

It is an indication, of course it is. It's not absolute proof, he wasn't saying it was.

eirwen · « **Reply #149 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:05:04 pm »

Quote from: Bob Loblaw on July 31, 2012, 07:01:29 pm

She probably is clean right now. But what about during all those months of preparation where the random drug testers can't get near her?

Athletes are almost constantly tested. She won a world championship last year so probably more tested over the past year.

Anywhichwayicant · « **Reply #150 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:05:43 pm »

Quote from: Kashinoda on July 31, 2012, 07:04:36 pm

Poor English day here I think.

Anywhichwayucan said "An athlete passing a test is an indication that they're clean."

It is an indication, of course it is. It's not absolute proof, he wasn't saying it was.

Correct.

Dread Breath · « **Reply #151 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:06:34 pm »

Quote from: Bob Loblaw on July 31, 2012, 07:01:29 pm

She probably is clean right now. But what about during all those months of preparation where the random drug testers can't get near her?

That's what's really good about what's happened in cycling - they test the athlete to find out what a "normal" state is for them then test them continually to find out if they are deviating from that state to such an extent that drug use is likely - and the athletes have to be available for testing throughout the year. Basically now, given the times they are riding, the recent winners of the Tour are clean - its put to rest a lot of speculation that cropped up with each winner of the tour de France. While a testing regime like that is lacking in swimming, questions will continue.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #152 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:08:56 pm »

Quote from: Anywhichwayucan on July 31, 2012, 07:05:43 pm

Correct.

My bad.I'm cooking and posting,not too clever.

Dread Breath · « **Reply #153 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:12:06 pm »

Quote from: eirwen on July 31, 2012, 07:03:59 pm

Racism, xenophobia, doesn't matter. The point is one should not be judged guilty by association.
China had a history of government sanctioned doping, many US athletes were doping individually. Doesn't make one more innocent.

As I said, there maybe a racist element to the accusations, but I think its more the fact its a communist country. Personally myself I couldn't give a rats arse if she was black white or brindle, when I see a performance like that I'll reserve my judgement, as will most of sports fans turned into sports cycnics by years of proven doping by a whole host of athletes. 15 year old female swimming faster than perhaps the best all round male swimmer in the world? Mmmmm.

Number23 · « **Reply #154 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:16:01 pm »

Even the lauded Carl Lewis was proved to have doped before the 88 Olympics, although the panel accepted his explanation that he "didn't know" what he was being injected with.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

Usain Bolt's 100m world record was as big a leap as Ye Shiwen's. Why no uproar over him?

snoop123 · « **Reply #155 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:16:21 pm »

Quote from: Anywhichwayucan on July 31, 2012, 06:50:15 pm

Again, this is making no sense.

An athlete passing a test is an indication that they're clean.

Yes an athlete passing a test in an indicator that they are clean, but its not 100% beyond all doubt proof.
I'll give an example, the Bahrainian athlete Rashid Ramzi, was a long suspected doper. He won the 800m/1500 double at the world champs in 2005, then had a couple of off years relatively and didnt win another major champs. He turned up to the Beijing Olympics and wasnt considered to be among the favs, as his form was unknown. But he won the 1500m final. Most observers thought it was a bit fishy. He then passed his drugs test as he had done all the others. The testing at Beijing was the best available at the time.

Come 2009, and testing again had improved. His sample from Beijing was retested and he was found to have been using CERA, an advanced type of EPO. Testing for CERA wasnt available in 2008, but was in 2009. He was stripped of his Olympic title and received a ban.

Basically what I'm saying is, only the stupid and careless get caught. The athletes tend to move onto the latest drugs for which there is no test yet. IMHO the biggest deterrent is the retesting of samples years later when the testers have caught up with the latest drugs. As it stands the testers are always playing catch up, as they cant test for substances they don't know athletes are using yet.

She has passed the test now. But only time will tell

Kashinoda · « **Reply #156 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:17:18 pm »

Quote from: Dread Breath on July 31, 2012, 07:12:06 pm

As I said, there maybe a racist element to the accusations, but I think its more the fact its a communist country. Personally myself I couldn't give a rats arse if she was black white or brindle, when I see a performance like that I'll reserve my judgement, as will most of sports fans turned into sports cycnics by years of proven doping by a whole host of athletes. 15 year old female swimming faster than perhaps the best all round male swimmer in the world? Mmmmm.

Over 50 meters though, a slow 50 meters by his standards as well. It's bits like that which get twisted to make a point, Rebecca Adlington also did a quicker 50 (might have been 25) meter stint than him as well.

The world has changed a lot, China hasn't been a communist country for a long time. Take a snap shot at China 20 years ago and compare it to the Chinese Socialism you have today, it's a different country now by some distance.

Kashinoda · « **Reply #157 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:19:05 pm »

Quote from: Number23 on July 31, 2012, 07:16:01 pm

Even the lauded Carl Lewis was proved to have doped before the 88 Olympics, although the panel accepted his explanation that he "didn't know" what he was being injected with.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

Usain Bolt's 100m world record was as big a leap as Ye Shiwen's. Why no uproar over him?

"Carl Lewis has broken his silence on allegations that he was the beneficiary of a drugs cover-up, admitting he had tested positive for banned substances but claiming he was just one of "hundreds" of American athletes who were allowed to escape bans.

"There were hundreds of people getting off," he said. "Everyone was treated the same.""

Pretty telling quote that, I think every country must have been at it.

BIGdavalad · « **Reply #158 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:21:29 pm »

Quote from: Number23 on July 31, 2012, 07:16:01 pm

Usain Bolt's 100m world record was as big a leap as Ye Shiwen's. Why no uproar over him?

I don't think Jamaica have any major record of doping do they?

They don't have the money or resources to throw at developing new doping techniques like the Chinese do (or like the Yanks do, the Soviets had etc).

Dread Breath · « **Reply #159 on:** July 31, 2012, 07:29:57 pm »

Quote from: Kashinoda on July 31, 2012, 07:17:18 pm

Over 50 meters though, a slow 50 meters by his standards as well. It's bits like that which get twisted to make a point, Rebecca Adlington also did a quicker 50 (might have been 25) meter stint than him as well.

The world has changed a lot, China hasn't been a communist country for a long time. Take a snap shot at China 20 years ago and compare it to the Chinese Socialism you have today, it's a different country now by some distance.

It is a more open country that before - and hey, I'm not knocking them for being communist - all power to them. I make no moral judgement on that at all - but it is so far from being "open" in the western sense its not funny. You can take something as mundane as the reporting of economic statistics and see the difference between China and the west in terms of openness, and again I'm not saying that makes western countries any better - but the results of "what China is" have proven in the past to have had a drastic effect on athletes that perform for communist countries. That's just a stone-cold fact - the communist commissars are quite prepared to dope their athletes to have more medal winners, while if a government in the West was caught doing that it would be out of power pretty damn quickly. In communist countries in the past you either have had the choice to represent your country, and being forced to dope as a result, or to not represent your country at all. That's the difference and the reason a lot of these rumours about Ye Shiwen are not tied to her race at all, but rather the country she comes from and what it is.