Author Topic: How many?  (Read 6612 times)

Offline davenorthwales

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Re: How many?
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2011, 02:14:52 pm »
chuckles@ some othe posts
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Offline iiFLAMBOYANTii

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Re: How many?
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2011, 02:15:23 pm »
Paul "The Konch" Konchesky
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Offline TopKopster

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Re: How many?
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2011, 02:16:09 pm »
Players like Ronaldo and Messi would get kicked to pieces, but they'd soon adapt and then start to dominate.  Defenders from back in the day just wouldn't be able to cope with the speed and skills of today's top players.

The same thing on a bit of a lesser scale looked to be happening to Moderic at Spurs, first season they got him he took a kick or two and just shyed away now he just keeps on going.

Offline ThisIsMickey

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Re: How many?
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2011, 02:17:12 pm »
Konchesky.

So, pretty much everyone then :p
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Offline SuperSub77

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Re: How many?
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2011, 02:24:03 pm »
Mascherano would have been awesome in the old days, there's no fear in him.
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Offline SuperSub77

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Re: How many?
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2011, 02:28:16 pm »
Paul "The Konch" Konchesky

Yeah, probably in the 4th division where a fullbacks instructions were "stay there, if the winger tries to run past you, kick him, if you get the ball, hoof it."

What was it that Tommy Smith said (I'm sure it was Tommy Smit, correct me if I'm wrong)?

"The ball may pass, the man may pass, but not at the same time."
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: How many?
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2011, 04:37:50 pm »
True mate, especially the skill factor when you consider the cow fields that they used to play on. Modern pitches are like carpets in comparison.

What does annoy me is how modern footballers complain about fatigue so much and managers resting players. Granted, I know that it's a much quicker game nowadays and players need to run further and faster, but consider that we used to play 42 league games a season without the cup competitions. I think we had a season where we used only 15 players. Aston Villa only used 14 players when they won the league in 1981 IIRC.
For a good insight into why modern players complain about fatigue go and check out the famous 1970 Brazil world cup final. Look how little actual running the teams do. There's no pressing, and for long periods players are literally moving up the pitch at walking pace, standing still for ages, passing back and forth. It's like a completely different sport. Pressing was only really invented in the 70s, and didn't become commonplace until well into the 80s.

Even then there's just no comparison between now and even 20 years ago in terms of the amount of running players do. To put it another way, ask yourself how it is that so many top players back in the day smoked shitloads AND had serious alcohol problems, or at least drunk shitloads? A player simply can't afford to do that now. Look at someone like Johnson of City - a couple of years 'easy living' and he's almost dropped out of the game completely. 20 years ago he'd have been a star for them, fatty with alcohol issues or no, a la Paul Merson or Paul McCrath or even Neil Ruddock. Those kinds of players have disappeared from the game completely.

It's worth listening to top physios about this as well - it's physically impossible to stay at peak fitness when you play 3 games in a week, and every time you play at less than peak fitness you significantly increase your risk of injury, lengthen your recover time and then there's more chance of you getting injured next week etc etc. This can be managed to an extent - for example in 08/09 Torres and Gerrard didn't tend to press as much as some of our other players, and Torres in particular was often taken off in the last 10-20 minutes of games where the risk of injury is biggest.

Back in the day, you didn't need to rotate and you could play more games in a season because during those games you were, on average, running 2/3 or even 1/2 the distance. Tactically the game hasn't changed masses in the last 20 years but fitness-wise it's a different world.

Just for the record, check out the England cricket team at the moment as well. The sport on the whole still hasn't learned like football is, but look how fit, how seriously they take fitness, compared to even the Flintoff years, then compare that to some of the Aussie players. They aren't the most amazing talents, but their fielding, their consistency, their lack of injuries are obvious, and that's because they're taking fitness much more seriously. It's also an approach where I honestly think they are becoming the most fitness focussed team in cricket, and in a few years that will make them the best team in world cricket. Another great example would be Tiger Woods in Golf, or even Lee Westwood who's rocketing up the rankings has gone hand in hand with him swapping burgers for the gym.

EDIT:

A last couple of points:

You see it really clearly around christmas, teams looking like they're running through treacle - that's fitness.

Last of all, is it really the players who complain about fitness? I haven't found that at all. Players tend to be desperate to play and say they want to and can play every match. Players actually tend to be stupid about their own fitness - they shouldn't be trusted, for the most part. It's coaches and physios, who in that respect know the players much better (ususally) than they do themselves, who moan about it, and rightly. There's a reason why most coaches back a winter break while players don't talk about it anywhere near as much.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 04:40:09 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: How many?
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2011, 04:39:43 pm »
Old footy id great and modern footy is rubbish. Or wubbish as Roy would say.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: How many?
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2011, 04:58:58 pm »
Old footy id great and modern footy is rubbish. Or wubbish as Roy would say.
I think the complete opposite. Behaviour aside, old football I've seen is utter shite in comparison - tactics are very weak, brutality and pitches mean that while certain great individuals shine there are very few proper team moves in the way we take for granted today...a side like Stoke if they played back in the day would probably have been considered really skilful and great to watch. One of the biggest shocks I've ever had was watching the famous 70 world cup final - the supposed best, most attacking game/team in history. It was dogshit, seriously. To someone brought up on pressing, on teams attacking and defending as units it was total guff to watch, teams retreating back to their own areas, attacking team able to literally stroll up the pitch with the ball and no-one trying to take it off them.

Then there's stuff like a clip I saw recently - a 17 year old comes on for his debut, is clean through, one on one with the keeper and is brutally scythed down from behind. No hint of an attempt to get the ball, and a very deliberately dangerous challenge. It might even have ended the kid's career. The ref doesn't book him - might not have even called a foul. Fuck that. That's not something to get misty eyed about 'ooh, they could dish it out AND take it back in the day'...yeah, and that's a lot of the reason why there were so few skilful players about, and why so many brilliant kids had their careers and whole futures destroyed by, basically, talentless thugs. Thugs who make the likes of Vinny Jones look like Guardiola in comparison.

Just purely to watch the sport itself, even in my lifetime (just about to turn 30), there's no comparison for me, even in the 90's football was, to me, pretty dogshit compared to the general standard now. Plus part of what makes it so quality is that the interesting aspects of that brutal side are still here - you can't get away with just attacking opposition players any more, but there's still room for a team like Stoke, that kind of play can still be successful, and that variety and contrast is something I really love about modern football.

The players may be prima-donna, spoiled, clueless cheating morons for the most part (though not as much as people make out, there are still a LOT of Hyppias and Lucasses and even Carra's and Gerrard's about how are not like that at all) but the actual football itself is miles better. Personally I thought the last world cup was just about the best I've ever seen - so many people moaning about how 'negative' it was and blah blah blah, I loved it because teams were on it with their tactics and, compared to others I've seen, the overall standard was miles higher, with just about every match being genuinely unpredictable - even whipping boys North Korea were a hell of a lot better than plenty I've seen in past world cups.

So yeah, when it comes to the football itself, I love modern football, it's great.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: How many?
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2011, 05:10:15 pm »
Started watching Lpool late sixties and the thing that strikes me is how fast the modern game is, it's not a cliche to say that even a journeyman has to be an athlete. It's impossible to compare like for like because you can only be the best in your time with the training methods and game you face. Even though he played well for us Steve Heighway was unbelievable in his first season but suffered because it became known he didn't like a hard challenge and defenders deliberatly targetted this weakness limiting his effectiveness. He'd have flowered with the protection he'd be given today. Counter that with the likes of heighway or Best would be up against uncomparably better organised teams today and would be denied space for them long mazy runs. 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 05:13:00 pm by The 92A »
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Re: How many?
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2011, 05:17:37 pm »
All of them.
Yup, can't see a modern day player not adapting easily to the game of yesteryear.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: How many?
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2011, 05:18:10 pm »
One of the biggest shocks I've ever had was watching the famous 70 world cup final - the supposed best, most attacking game/team in history. It was dogshit, seriously. To someone brought up on pressing, on teams attacking and defending as units it was total guff to watch, teams retreating back to their own areas, attacking team able to literally stroll up the pitch with the ball and no-one trying to take it off them.

You have to understand the environment in which the game was played. Height of summer near the equator , high altitude. Even today strong teams are regularly thrashed by Ecuador in Ecuador unless they specifically prepare with appropriate acclimatisation and tactics. Go back a few years to the World Cup in Germany, and you don't even have the high altitude to take into account, yet games were usually at walking pace for the last 30 minutes or more, with players regularly dropping from cramp.


Quote
Then there's stuff like a clip I saw recently - a 17 year old comes on for his debut, is clean through, one on one with the keeper and is brutally scythed down from behind.

Paul Allen?
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: How many?
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2011, 05:19:53 pm »
Counter that with the likes of heighway or Best would be up uncomparably better organised teams today and would be denied space for them long mazy runs. 
Yes, it's a bit of an irony that the sheer brutality gave a massive advantage to the very most skilled. Look at someone like Maradona for example - people come sliding in looking to break him, one feint, one shoulder drop and that defender is on his arse nowhere near him. Compare that to someone like Mascherano, who chases and harries and waits for his chance to slide in - usually emerging with the ball - also knowing he CAN wait to slide in because there's players holding their positions or pressing in packs, rather than charging in one by one almost like in a cheesy Kung-Fu-Movie (Maradona's famous goal against England has shades of that).
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: How many?
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2011, 05:23:43 pm »
You have to understand the environment in which the game was played. Height of summer near the equator , high altitude. Even today strong teams are regularly thrashed by Ecuador in Ecuador unless they specifically prepare with appropriate acclimatisation and tactics. Go back a few years to the World Cup in Germany, and you don't even have the high altitude to take into account, yet games were usually at walking pace for the last 30 minutes or more, with players regularly dropping from cramp.


Paul Allen?
Understood, and I also understood that said game was also a kind of transition point from 'old' football into 'new' football (indeed, Italy in that game look a much more modern team, and could have won easily had they been a bit more positive early on - all the famous samba shite happens in the last few minutes where the conditions you mention are clearly taking a huge toll, that and Italy's more modern approach), but it's still a real eye-opener in terms of the differences. I mean, you look even at AC Milan in the late 80's and while they are clearly a 'modern' team, it's also striking that many of the opposition aren't - they almost have a monopoly on the team pressing at times. It's similar with Liverpool too - like that famous Forest 5-0 beating. I've never watched it in full, but every time I've seen the highlights it's striking how much time and space we have on the ball - how they play kind of like a more extreme version of a Hodgson team, standing off, retreating, pressing, if at all, as individuals rather than in packs.
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Offline scatman

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Re: How many?
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2011, 05:26:48 pm »
Some of you lot dont half talk shit. Carraghers one of the best defenders weve ever had.

best ever defenders? Nah that's a slight on some of the great defenders we've had in Liverpool sides over the years.
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Offline Redeo

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Re: How many?
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2011, 05:30:26 pm »
For me, the key difference between today and the past is that today the game is much more scientific.  Everything is analyzed and re-analyzed according to a scientific method so that best practices can be adopted.  This spills into every aspect of the game: from how to train, to fitness (what to eat, when and how to rest, when/how long to sleep, when to ice bath), to sport psychology (what thoughts to think and when), to Moneyball. 

Football used to be a much more relaxed endeavour in times past when the stuff of heart, passion and grit had a greater sway over the game.  This difference between scientific (modern) and non-scientific (traditional) ways of the game is key in understanding the fortunes of the LiverpoolFC.  As the club that excelled the most in the past we were also among the ones that struggled the most to adopt the new ways.  Hopefully, with NESV and KK we marry the best of both worlds...
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Offline farawayred

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Re: How many?
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2011, 05:31:47 pm »
I don't want to steer the discussion away, but before Total Football there wasn't that much difference in style. I've seen highlights of games from the 30s and 40s, and football was so simple then. It was a matter of who had the skills to dribble, it was a matter of individual creativity, but not much team creativity. After Total Football many different styles evolved and each one tried to perfect it's elements to outdo the other. This process is past its prime now and we are reaping the rewards. It wasn't long ago (90s) when African teams developed their own flare, and the process will be complete with Asia (though I fear that Australia moving there will spoil that.) There is a lot of mixed influence from Brazilian elements imported into Japan, the Arab peninsula, the former Soviet republics in Asia, but their style is by no means Brazilian. So I agree with HBHR, modern football is nicer to watch.

Total Football was one of the game changers for me. Others are the introduction of the yellow and red cards, which cleaned up some of the brutality, and three points for a win, which made teams go for it. If we can clean up the cheating from the game, it would be a fantastic achievement!
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Offline SuperSub77

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Re: How many?
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2011, 06:36:27 pm »
For a good insight into why modern players complain about fatigue go and check out the famous 1970 Brazil world cup final. Look how little actual running the teams do. There's no pressing, and for long periods players are literally moving up the pitch at walking pace, standing still for ages, passing back and forth. It's like a completely different sport. Pressing was only really invented in the 70s, and didn't become commonplace until well into the 80s.

Even then there's just no comparison between now and even 20 years ago in terms of the amount of running players do........


That's a good reflection HBHR. Like I mentioned, you cannot compare in any way fitness levels between the 2 eras, they are galaxies apart.

I don't think the 1970 WCF is a good comparison like but I agree with what you're saying. Most games at the 1970 World Cup were played at almost walking pace due to the conditions, heat and altitude in Mexico, so differed even to the 'frantic' pace of the English first division.

There's a really good documentary that I've got actually, made in the early 90's (presented by John Fashanu funnily enough, mentioned above) called "Brazil 70". I tells the story of how the Brazilians were more adept at playing at altitude and adopted their training throughout the tournament so that they could last. The style that you mention was used to wear down the chasing opposition.

True about the smoking, drinking and other habits adopted by footballers in the past that should never be associated with a professional athlete. It was the good old British way back then I suppose. It's been good for the game that it has changed now (though not totally in some cases!) I think it's mainly down to the money available at the top and the large influx of foreign players and coaches, it put the 'good old British' attitude to shame, we had to adapt and change our culture.
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