Author Topic: The PL run-in  (Read 983562 times)

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1960 on: January 18, 2021, 10:38:25 am »
If we can't get a few quid together for a central defender then we ain't getting the what probably 300 million required to sign two of those three. Either way we will need a central defender in the summer also why not just do it now.

Maybe the CB we want now isn’t available ?
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Offline Naby Lad

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1961 on: January 18, 2021, 10:38:28 am »
The poster just thinks we should be getting rid of all these players and it’s complete fantasy.

We improved the squad in the summer. Maybe it was a risk having Fab as your fourth choice but did anyone expect that all 3 other CBs would be unfit?

Yes. I fully expected Joel Matip to be constantly injured. And Joe Gomez has a history of big injuries as well.

Van Dijk is the only surprise. It literally took until the second game of the season for us to have to move the worlds best DM to CB.

We watched the exact same thing happen to Man City. Literally the same thing. Risking 3 CBs. Get an injury to your best one, and then fall off because CB and midfield both become compromised.

We took a gamble. And the nature of gambles is they don’t all pay off. And this didn’t.

To suggest ‘oh who could have predicted that it was a risk to go in to a season with 3 CBs when two of them have a consistent history of injury’ is kind of taking the piss. Everyone could have predicted Matip and Gomez getting injured.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1962 on: January 18, 2021, 10:39:03 am »
The poster just thinks we should be getting rid of all these players and it’s complete fantasy.

We improved the squad in the summer. Maybe it was a risk having Fab as your fourth choice but did anyone expect that all 3 other CBs would be unfit?

It was a risk if we knew Matip would be this injury prone but overall I agreed with signing Thiago.

The thing is we have been massively unlucky. We lost one of the most robust players and the best defender in the world to a preventable, freak injury, lost Thiago for months due to a horror tackle, lost our attacker that was quite hot with his finishing and then at the same time lost other defenders and form in players like Mane.

Its just a perfect storm which will most likely cost us the league. But it is what it is and what the fans should be excited about is that the club has the best set up to make the right decisions and ruthless ones.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1963 on: January 18, 2021, 10:51:50 am »
Yes. I fully expected Joel Matip to be constantly injured. And Joe Gomez has a history of big injuries as well.

Van Dijk is the only surprise. It literally took until the second game of the season for us to have to move the worlds best DM to CB.

We watched the exact same thing happen to Man City. Literally the same thing. Risking 3 CBs. Get an injury to your best one, and then fall off because CB and midfield both become compromised.

We took a gamble. And the nature of gambles is they don’t all pay off. And this didn’t.

To suggest ‘oh who could have predicted that it was a risk to go in to a season with 3 CBs when two of them have a consistent history of injury’ is kind of taking the piss. Everyone could have predicted Matip and Gomez getting injured.

Yet the Manager was happy with it.
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Offline Naby Lad

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1964 on: January 18, 2021, 10:53:18 am »
Yet the Manager was happy with it.

Cool. How's it worked out?
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Offline Wengerpresser101

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1965 on: January 18, 2021, 11:00:13 am »
Quote
And we've spent what we've brought in. We've just finished a major capital project at Kirkby, and are planning to start another at the Anfield Road End. We bought Thiago and Kostas and Jota. We've probably improved a few contracts (I don't keep up with the wage porn so don't really know). And covid has dramatically reduced our income.
Yeh I think our reinvestment has been decent.
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Well firstly what you class as ineffective and what the manager does will probably not be the same thing; the same applies to the timescales. Half this forum wanted Hendo and Gini gone several seasons ago. Now they are feted beyond measure and people are losing their minds at the thought of Gini leaving. Guaranteed there was an equivalent of you saying the same kind of thing about them back in the day ("Our problem is we stick too long with ineffective sideways passers")
True, however some players just aren't performing, and is easily viewable whether it's from the coach or the fans.
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In this regard profit is pointless unless it allows you to buy a replacement, and the replacements are there to buy. You could make a 100% profit on Gomez and Matip and it wouldn't pay for a 3rd choice squad player, let alone two first team replacements.
Yeh that's why I think profit should be substantial enough to bring in replacements. 
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Were you saying that then? And did Haaland want to come here in Jan 2020? Or his agent who is well known for deliberately moving his clients up the footballing tree in short, judicious steps that net him bazillions each time). This isn't a game of Football Manager.
Well I wasn't on this forum then, so I couldn't say it. But yes I did think Firmino time was up, as he was approaching 30, and out of form for a year by then. Concept is still the same, buy low sell high, and repeat for sustained success. Also even if Haaland didn't want to come here, there are other finishers out there, like Patson Daka etc. Players who would improve us.
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Firstly you'd need to actually evidence that rather than implying causation from a correlation, and secondly you don't know whether it has stopped working or we've just hit a sticky patch. Because teams who bring in lots of new players at a time and turnover their first teams regularly always do well?
No they don't always do well, like Chelsea with Havertz and Werner etc. However players that we have brought in have improved us, i.e. Jota, Thiago etc.  Personally I think based on evidence, it is a mixture of things stopped working and sticky patch with some. Sticky patch being Mane, Salah and Trent. I think they'll get better. Stop working being Firmino, and our general attacking play, which has become too easy to defend against, especially against parked bus.

So we need to change that to start scoring goals. Like maybe dropping Firmino, overloading the attack, putting more strikers on top, having a creative number 10, that might fix the stop working part.
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You don't seem to be applying that understanding to your grand vision of what we should be doing. In the current climate who is going to pay enough for the injury prone players you want to move out such that it will allow us to buy the players you want to bring in?
Well that's the recruitment department job isn't it. To raise as much funds as possible for unwanted players. Personally, hmm, I think German, Spanish, and English clubs should be able to afford them. However I think we will get lesser then usual for them. On the flip side, clubs are poorer now due to Covid, so we should be able to use that to our advantage to pay a lower fee when buying replacements. So it evens out. 

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1966 on: January 18, 2021, 11:00:56 am »
Cool. How's it worked out?

You could have predicted Gomez and Matip would be out injured at various times but over the last couple of years we almost always had one of them available.

I’d say in the summer we probably would have signed a CB until it became clear we could get Thiago. Klopp probably thought that was too good an opportunity to fill in at CB occasionally. For all Matip and Gomez’s injury history you’d have to be pretty pessimistic to have planned for what’s unfolded back in the summer.

Offline jepovic

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1967 on: January 18, 2021, 11:07:44 am »
Jota is the injury that has hurt us the most,and that wasn't predictable

Offline Brain Potter

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1968 on: January 18, 2021, 11:11:17 am »
We’ve been through these spells before.... it’s just that we’ve had practically 2 full seasons of winning week after week and it doesn’t feel too good to have a dry spell (I’m fed up anyway).
I know that form is temporary but class is permanent. Competing with Man City for a title it may well be that this bad run fucks our league season up completely. So be it.
Things can change quickly though, need to get back to winning ways on Thursday.
Still loads to be optimistic about.

Offline Naby Lad

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1969 on: January 18, 2021, 11:18:19 am »
You could have predicted Gomez and Matip would be out injured at various times but over the last couple of years we almost always had one of them available.

I’d say in the summer we probably would have signed a CB until it became clear we could get Thiago. Klopp probably thought that was too good an opportunity to fill in at CB occasionally. For all Matip and Gomez’s injury history you’d have to be pretty pessimistic to have planned for what’s unfolded back in the summer.

I don't think you have to be pessimistic to know that three CBs is a risk when one of them is constantly injured and another has a history of major injuries.

Just keep Lovren and sell Harry Wilson if you really needed that £10m.
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Offline ScouserAtHeart

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1970 on: January 18, 2021, 11:23:33 am »
I don't think you have to be pessimistic to know that three CBs is a risk when one of them is constantly injured and another has a history of major injuries.

Just keep Lovren and sell Harry Wilson if you really needed that £10m.

Maybe we thought Williams and Phillips would be better than they turned out to be? Could be one reason why Klopp was fine with going in with 3 CBs and Fabinho
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Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1971 on: January 18, 2021, 11:31:12 am »
Not sure I agree with your points to be fair.

1. Injury prone players -

What is wrong with this point is that you have the implicit premises that injury prone players can easily be sold, ready replacements are easy to find, and one can be confident the new players won't be injury prone themselves. I don't think any of them are sound.

2. Players who don't perform -

This point is patently stupid. Firmino isn't our main goalscoring threat. He's a link player who gets through an awful lot of work and his work rate and combination play is a significant factor in the potency of our front 3 as well as how we link our midfield and attack. In terms of scoring, he's generally third of the front 3. Buying a different type of player (i.e. a 'finisher' as you suggest) would have knock on effects on the way we play and I doubt we would be as successful as we have been in the last 2 seasons. As it turned out, we did buy a player to compete with Firmino but he got injured, unfortunately. You've mentioned that we've got quite a few players who don't perform. Can you name who are all these players that aren't performing. Can you explain why, with so many of them not performing, how we've won so much?

3. Fringe players -

Fringe players are only a good source of income if you sell them for what they are worth. If you sell them for less than they are worth, then you don't make much income from them. With regard to the CB issue, we could have either bought a Lovren replacement (which I'm not sure we would have got much for 20m) or stuck with our 3 CB's + Fabinho as cover. Whilst Matip has had injury issues, I don't think anyone could have predicted that the other 2 CBs would get as bad injuries as they have had. So again, your point seems all very sensible in hindsight, but doesn't really sound like a good idea when you put it with information they had at the time they made a decision about it. The alternative is that we could have sold a few players, brought in a 20m pound CB who could have easily just sat on the bench behind Gomez, VVD and Matip for much of the season, would by definition be a fringe player themselves (being a third or 4th choice CB). That's not good business at all. The injuries were just bad luck.

4. Players approaching end of contract -

I'm pretty sure the club wants to keep hold of Gini and have made a very good offer commensurate with his abilities, and his age. You can't just force players to sign the contract. Maybe the player has his head turned, maybe he wants a new challenge, maybe something different. I think trying to cash in on him would be pretty hard because the other clubs after him would recognise that he's near the end of his contract and perhaps persuade him to sign a deal without trying to transfer him early. Gini's not such an outstanding player that other clubs are going to break the bank to bring him in. They'd rather wait to get him on a free in my opinion.

5. Central defence -

You're living in Football Manager World. It's not just a case of have a blank cheque and go out and sign whoever you want. The players that we are likely to be interested in are likely to be top class players who will stick around at the top even after VVD and Gomez come back. Such players aren't cheap, and exactly which club is going to sell such high quality players half way through a season? It's not that other clubs in the world just exist to service our transfer needs. The owners are wealthy but all of their wealth and interest is not in LFC. The club itself has to be very careful financially given what a pasting a lot of clubs are taking with the odd season. I think their tightening of the pursestrings is absolutely appropriate. That being said, you can't excuse them of being scrooges either. The spent a heck of a lot of money to get VVD and Alisson in. What history has shown is that if there is a sensible signing to be had ie a top player, decent price and ticks all the Klopp boxes, then we will get them in even if it costs a pretty penny.

6. General succession planning -

You are right about one thing, we do have a core group of players who have been largely responsible for our success. But I'm willing to bet that what you think is the core group is much smaller than what a lot of others (probably JK included) think is the core group.

The reason our success has been less evident this season is because we haven't had our core group together. There are the obvious injuries - Ali, VVD, Gomez, Matip, Trent, Jota, Thiago, Hendo, Ox, Naby have all spent significant time on the treatment/injury table this season; some more than others and I'm probably forgetting a few. Pretty much the majority of those players are core players. We haven't consistently had our 'core group' which is probably why we've struggled in comparison to how we finished last season.

I think another major reason is because of how condensed the season is. This doesn't give our players ample time to recover and prepare for the next game. Instead, they just spend their time on recovery and go straight into the next game. I doubt that we've had many opportunities to actually remedy some of the tactical issues we are facing because we're constantly just recovering from the previous game due to the congested schedule.


Offline Naby Lad

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1972 on: January 18, 2021, 11:40:52 am »
Maybe we thought Williams and Phillips would be better than they turned out to be? Could be one reason why Klopp was fine with going in with 3 CBs and Fabinho

 I think he gambled that Virgil wouldn't get injured. That's fair enough. Virgil usually doesn't. Unfortunately he did this season though.
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Offline Jm55

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1973 on: January 18, 2021, 12:02:11 pm »
I think we have to be realistic in that there’s a fairly reasonable chance we don’t win the league this season, I’d go one step further snd say there’s an outside chance we don’t make the top 4 but I think that’s thankfully unlikely.

I’m not going to go into the reasons why we are where we are as everybody knows them but what I will say on an optimistic note is that I’m not worried long term. It’s fairly obvious that a big part of the reason our form has dipped is due to the centre half situation and that’s thankfully going to be resolved when Van Dijk and Gomez return, I also expect the club to sign a centre half (for me we should be doing this now but if not in the summer.)

This isn’t a situation where good players have fallen off a cliffs it’s a group of very good players doing extrodnairly well to be anywhere near a title challenge considering the season we’ve had but who, for my money, might not have quite enough to get it over the line, and that’s fine. We also have the European cup to look forward to abs maybe we can really excel in that this season.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1974 on: January 18, 2021, 01:05:13 pm »
snip

You're looking at things like you're playing a video game.  It's not quite as simple as you are trying to portray it is. 

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1975 on: January 18, 2021, 01:07:45 pm »
They seem mentally burned out. It’s known that it’s very difficult to sustain title winning form 3 years in a row. People had similar complaints about City last season. To perform the way we have for two years, playing the style of football we play, and given everything that’s going on, I imagine it’s hard to keep the fire burning.

This could be more the case than we think.  Not only has it been a really intense 2+ years maintaining a ridiculous level but with the schedule this year where we're playing every 3-4 days, that doesn't let the players get that much needed mental break.

Offline kb2x

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1976 on: January 18, 2021, 01:15:58 pm »
We've pretty much has continual football (Minus the break for the pandemic) since the start of last season. If the Euro's go ahead this summer, there's a fairly good chance this lack of a break extends further.

Its not all about missing that CBs, Its the fact our dominant midfield from last season has been changed to fill in at CB.

We need to fix it, and fix it quick. A few more bad results and its an uphill struggle.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1977 on: January 18, 2021, 02:02:06 pm »
I think he gambled that Virgil wouldn't get injured. That's fair enough. Virgil usually doesn't. Unfortunately he did this season though.

So we were unlucky with that (and also Gomez).

No one could have predicted that all three would be out at same time as it’s almost unheard of.
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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1978 on: January 18, 2021, 02:08:21 pm »
We've pretty much has continual football (Minus the break for the pandemic) since the start of last season. If the Euro's go ahead this summer, there's a fairly good chance this lack of a break extends further.

Its not all about missing that CBs, Its the fact our dominant midfield from last season has been changed to fill in at CB.

We need to fix it, and fix it quick. A few more bad results and its an uphill struggle.
Yes, having Fabinho and now Hendo at centre half is having a massive impact on our attacking game. In midfield, they gave the additional defensive protection which allowed the full backs to play very high up the pitch, often as wingers.

If you look at many goals from the last few seasons, the have started with a long diagonal ball from a centre half to a full back, who then crossed it to one of the front 3. We have hardly seen that this season.

This has also affected Mane and Salah because the full backs playing further forward led to overloads, which gave them more space.

If Matip is back, that would allow Hendo or Fab to play as the 6, which would also mean Thiago could play a bit further forward. That's a big if though.






Offline HeartAndSoul

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1979 on: January 18, 2021, 02:12:28 pm »
We've won 6 in the last 15 games in all competitions (one of those against villa u18s). In the other 9 games we have only scored 5 goals.

We need to do something to fix that. Change of formation or whatever but something just isn't quite right and seems like too many players are out of form at the same time

Offline Naby Lad

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1980 on: January 18, 2021, 02:19:18 pm »
So we were unlucky with that (and also Gomez).

No one could have predicted that all three would be out at same time as it’s almost unheard of.

It's not unheard of for Gomez to pick up a massive injury and for Matip to constantly be struggling though. It happens near enough every single season. The gamble wasn't on those two because it was clear they would both be injured at some point. They gambled on that Van Dijk literally never would be.

Even if Van Dijk didn't get injured, we'd still be a CB short.

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Offline Jookie

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1981 on: January 18, 2021, 02:22:15 pm »
2 CL finals in 3 seasons, 198 points over 2 seasons including that elusive 19th PL title, unbeaten at home for approaching 4 years, almost faultless recruitment over numerous windows and all it took was a poor run of 4 games under mitigating circumstances for some to start wanting big changes as the club.

It isn't that much fun recently and there are certain things I think we need to sort. Issues that may have not seemed critical last summer but have been highlighted hugely this season. I think people will focus on centre back as the obvious issue but that issue is only really brought about by a very poor tackle and a long term injury caused by an innocuous incident. For me, the centre back issue has bitten us this season but I still don't think the risk was huge to go with 3 centre backs plus Fabinho. Given that plan included getting left back cover and adding Thiago. I don't think you can pull apart those pieces of business and the decision to not buy a 4th centre back to replace Lovren.

The loss of the centre backs was always a possibility but the far from the probable outcome some have suggested. Matip being injury prone was the only real risk. I think the centre back issue has been exaggerated by some things that could have been predicted but didn't seem critical in the summer. AOC and Keita being injury prone has really stretched the midfield resources at times. Again the Thiago injury is a mitigating circumstance. I have mentioned the AOC and Keita fitness issues previously and I think a decision about both will be accelerated this summer. We haven't been able to rotate anywhere near enough in midfield due to injuries and the redeployment of Fabinho and Henderson. The knock on effect is that we look to be lacking a bit physically.

I've said it on here before but I think the other elephant in the room is Firmino. I've said everything I wanted to in the Firmino thread but I'll add that this isn't a quick judgement on Bobby. He's been inconsistent and generally in decline since the end of 2018/19. I started having doubts about him physically last season and I think that slight downward trajectory has continued.

I don't view our current issues as something that was obvious to happen. Though I do think it's highlighted some issues that were more nagging doubts coming into the season. Things that haven't been the single cause for our current struggles but smaller factors that have played a role in a wider problem. A problem that would probably be significantly smaller if we didn't suffer 2 major injures in 1 game through what some would say were highly reckless challenges
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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1982 on: January 18, 2021, 02:23:14 pm »
It's not unheard of for Gomez to pick up a massive injury and for Matip to constantly be struggling though. It happens near enough every single season. The gamble wasn't on those two because it was clear they would both be injured at some point. They gambled on that Van Dijk literally never would be.

Even if Van Dijk didn't get injured, we'd still be a CB short.



Fab is fourth choice.
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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1983 on: January 18, 2021, 02:26:21 pm »
2 CL finals in 3 seasons, 198 points over 2 seasons including that elusive 19th PL title, unbeaten at home for approaching 4 years, almost faultless recruitment over numerous windows and all it took was a poor run of 4 games under mitigating circumstances for some to start wanting big changes as the club.

It isn't that much fun recently and there are certain things I think we need to sort. Issues that may have not seemed critical last summer but have been highlighted hugely this season. I think people will focus on centre back as the obvious issue but that issue is only really brought about by a very poor tackle and a long term injury caused by an innocuous incident. For me, the centre back issue has bitten us this season but I still don't think the risk was huge to go with 3 centre backs plus Fabinho. Given that plan included getting left back cover and adding Thiago. I don't think you can pull apart those pieces of business and the decision to not buy a 4th centre back to replace Lovren.

The loss of the centre backs was always a possibility but the far from the probable outcome some have suggested. Matip being injury prone was the only real risk. I think the centre back issue has been exaggerated by some things that could have been predicted but didn't seem critical in the summer. AOC and Keita being injury prone has really stretched the midfield resources at times. Again the Thiago injury is a mitigating circumstance. I have mentioned the AOC and Keita fitness issues previously and I think a decision about both will be accelerated this summer. We haven't been able to rotate anywhere near enough in midfield due to injuries and the redeployment of Fabinho and Henderson. The knock on effect is that we look to be lacking a bit physically.

I've said it on here before but I think the other elephant in the room is Firmino. I've said everything I wanted to in the Firmino thread but I'll add that this isn't a quick judgement on Bobby. He's been inconsistent and generally in decline since the end of 2018/19. I started having doubts about him physically last season and I think that slight downward trajectory has continued.

I don't view our current issues as something that was obvious to happen. Though I do think it's highlighted some issues that were more nagging doubts coming into the season. Things that haven't been the single cause for our current struggles but smaller factors that have played a role in a wider problem. A problem that would probably be significantly smaller if we didn't suffer 2 major injures in 1 game through what some would say were highly reckless challenges

Well said, but it has to be said that Mane's lack of consistent form this season is another major issue.

Offline Naby Lad

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1984 on: January 18, 2021, 02:32:19 pm »
Fab is fourth choice.

So a midfielder. Not an actual CB. Great, moving the best DM out of DM won't have any knock on impact.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1985 on: January 18, 2021, 02:33:38 pm »
So a midfielder. Not an actual CB. Great, moving the best DM out of DM won't have any knock on impact.

It wouldn't if at least one of the other centrebacks were fit. We have lost three though.

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1986 on: January 18, 2021, 02:34:45 pm »
Lovren started 9 matcher in PL last season, so I think not replacing him was a bit of a gamble. Even without the VVD injury, Gomez and Matip being injured at the same time would be expected.

That said, it's not easy to find a quality CB who is willing to be 4th option and in all likelihood play a dozen matches. It would have been someone similar to Klavan, and then Klopp probably would have used Fabinho anyway despite the gap it creates in midfield. 10M CBs are not nearly as good as Fabinho.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1987 on: January 18, 2021, 02:34:53 pm »
It wouldn't if at least one of the other centrebacks were fit. We have lost three though.

But he could see all three would be injured at the same time.
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Offline Naby Lad

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1988 on: January 18, 2021, 02:35:05 pm »
It wouldn't if at least one of the other centrebacks were fit. We have lost three though.

Right and two of them are injured every single season. So we'd have been moving Fabinho a load anyway. Lovren played 25 league games across his last 2 seasons with us. So essentially 1 in 3.

But he could see all three would be injured at the same time.
Two of them are injured every single season. Doesn't take a fucking Nostradamus to have forseen Joe Gomez and Joel Matip being injured.
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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1989 on: January 18, 2021, 02:35:47 pm »
Sadly big Sam is taken.

He's good in a crisis.

Offline aw1991

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1990 on: January 18, 2021, 02:37:15 pm »

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1991 on: January 18, 2021, 02:38:59 pm »
Right and two of them are injured every single season. So we'd have been moving Fabinho a load anyway. Lovren played 25 league games across his last 2 seasons with us. So essentially 1 in 3.
Two of them are injured every single season. Doesn't take a fucking Nostradamus to have forseen Joe Gomez and Joel Matip being injured.

But we lost Gomez for the whole season, not just a few months. Van Dijk being out for the season was also significant. Even if Fabinho would have had to cover the load that Lovren had, 12-15 games in all competitions isn't that much.

You add into that Thiago in midfield and then there was plenty of evidence to say this was the right decision. But we lost Thiago as well so that put more pressure on the midfield.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1992 on: January 18, 2021, 02:40:36 pm »
But we lost Gomez for the whole season, not just a few months. Van Dijk being out for the season was also significant. Even if Fabinho would have had to cover the load that Lovren had, 12-15 games in all competitions isn't that much.

You add into that Thiago in midfield and then there was plenty of evidence to say this was the right decision. But we lost Thiago as well so that put more pressure on the midfield.


Plus Keita and Jota too.

It’s been one thing after the other this season.
No, jazz. You fear jazz. You fear the lack of rules, the lack of boundaries. Oh look, it's a fence. But, no, it's soft.

Offline Naby Lad

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1993 on: January 18, 2021, 02:45:49 pm »
But we lost Gomez for the whole season, not just a few months. Van Dijk being out for the season was also significant. Even if Fabinho would have had to cover the load that Lovren had, 12-15 games in all competitions isn't that much.

You add into that Thiago in midfield and then there was plenty of evidence to say this was the right decision. But we lost Thiago as well so that put more pressure on the midfield.

15 Games is about a third of the season so it is a lot. And again it's not a surprise Joe Gomez picked up a long term injury. It's the 5th of his career now.

There is no evidence to suggest we made the right decision. Literally every piece of evidence says otherwise actually. Two of our CBs who regularly get injuries, both got injured. We've went from running away with a league title last season to being in a scrap for top 4 averaging less than 2 points a game and can barely buy a win away from Anfield. How does the evidence point to us being correct in heading in to THE MOST CONGESTED SEASON IN HISTORY with 3 CBs, two of whom have terrible injuries records?

I'm actually stunned that you actually want to make the argument that going in to a season with 3 CBs when two of them have horrific injuries records was the correct decision.

It was a gamble. It backfired. Shit happens.

Plus Keita and Jota too.

It’s been one thing after the other this season.
And who could have saw Naby Keita struggling with fitness. He's usually so reliable.
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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1994 on: January 18, 2021, 02:49:25 pm »
Plus Keita and Jota too.

It’s been one thing after the other this season.

I think we also have to be humble enough and realise that, at some point, things were going to regress a bit and we have ended up in a perfect storm of injuries, form and also players' level dropping almost permanently. Firmino's ability to perform consistently above what his stats say have reduced for a while and concerningly so has Mane. We also have some key players like the front three, Wijnaldum, Henderson all around the age of 30.

There will be big decisions in the summer, there are a number of players not really contributing and spending more time in the treatment room. But that's just natural evolution of sides and we still have some amazing players and the best coaching and recruitment set up around.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1995 on: January 18, 2021, 02:49:59 pm »
15 Games is about a third of the season so it is a lot. And again it's not a surprise Joe Gomez picked up a long term injury. It's the 5th of his career now.

There is no evidence to suggest we made the right decision. Literally every piece of evidence says otherwise actually. Two of our CBs who regularly get injuries, both got injured. We've went from running away with a league title last season to being in a scrap for top 4 averaging less than 2 points a game and can barely buy a win away from Anfield. How does the evidence point to us being correct in heading in to THE MOST CONGESTED SEASON IN HISTORY with 3 CBs, two of whom have terrible injuries records?

I'm actually stunned that you actually want to make the argument that going in to a season with 3 CBs when two of them have horrific injuries records was the correct decision.

It was a gamble. It backfired. Shit happens.
And who could have saw Naby Keita struggling with fitness. He's usually so reliable.


We had four CBs as already mentioned.

It’s highly unlikely / very unlucky that 3 of your 4 CBs are injured at the same time.

And two season ending injuries in one squad is unlucky and it’s the same position.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 02:52:34 pm by Nick110581 »
No, jazz. You fear jazz. You fear the lack of rules, the lack of boundaries. Oh look, it's a fence. But, no, it's soft.

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1996 on: January 18, 2021, 02:51:57 pm »
15 Games is about a third of the season so it is a lot. And again it's not a surprise Joe Gomez picked up a long term injury. It's the 5th of his career now.

There is no evidence to suggest we made the right decision. Literally every piece of evidence says otherwise actually. Two of our CBs who regularly get injuries, both got injured. We've went from running away with a league title last season to being in a scrap for top 4 averaging less than 2 points a game and can barely buy a win away from Anfield. How does the evidence point to us being correct in heading in to THE MOST CONGESTED SEASON IN HISTORY with 3 CBs, two of whom have terrible injuries records?

I'm actually stunned that you actually want to make the argument that going in to a season with 3 CBs when two of them have horrific injuries records was the correct decision.

It was a gamble. It backfired. Shit happens.
And who could have saw Naby Keita struggling with fitness. He's usually so reliable.


If Thiago and Van Dijk make it out of the Everton game ok then we wouldn't have a problem at the back or midfield, even if Matip and Gomez had been injured for the whole season. Losing Van Dijk and Thiago meant it was a double whammy.

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1997 on: January 18, 2021, 02:58:59 pm »
Yes, we took a gamble on not getting a CB after losing Lovren, but I like how we're all experts during difficult times. The harder the things get, the more we know and the more we have to say.

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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1998 on: January 18, 2021, 03:01:45 pm »
2 CL finals in 3 seasons, 198 points over 2 seasons including that elusive 19th PL title, unbeaten at home for approaching 4 years, almost faultless recruitment over numerous windows and all it took was a poor run of 4 games under mitigating circumstances for some to start wanting big changes as the club.

It isn't that much fun recently and there are certain things I think we need to sort. Issues that may have not seemed critical last summer but have been highlighted hugely this season. I think people will focus on centre back as the obvious issue but that issue is only really brought about by a very poor tackle and a long term injury caused by an innocuous incident. For me, the centre back issue has bitten us this season but I still don't think the risk was huge to go with 3 centre backs plus Fabinho. Given that plan included getting left back cover and adding Thiago. I don't think you can pull apart those pieces of business and the decision to not buy a 4th centre back to replace Lovren.

The loss of the centre backs was always a possibility but the far from the probable outcome some have suggested. Matip being injury prone was the only real risk. I think the centre back issue has been exaggerated by some things that could have been predicted but didn't seem critical in the summer. AOC and Keita being injury prone has really stretched the midfield resources at times. Again the Thiago injury is a mitigating circumstance. I have mentioned the AOC and Keita fitness issues previously and I think a decision about both will be accelerated this summer. We haven't been able to rotate anywhere near enough in midfield due to injuries and the redeployment of Fabinho and Henderson. The knock on effect is that we look to be lacking a bit physically.

I've said it on here before but I think the other elephant in the room is Firmino. I've said everything I wanted to in the Firmino thread but I'll add that this isn't a quick judgement on Bobby. He's been inconsistent and generally in decline since the end of 2018/19. I started having doubts about him physically last season and I think that slight downward trajectory has continued.

I don't view our current issues as something that was obvious to happen. Though I do think it's highlighted some issues that were more nagging doubts coming into the season. Things that haven't been the single cause for our current struggles but smaller factors that have played a role in a wider problem. A problem that would probably be significantly smaller if we didn't suffer 2 major injures in 1 game through what some would say were highly reckless challenges

Good post.
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Re: Attacking #20
« Reply #1999 on: January 18, 2021, 03:01:47 pm »
As most have said on here, if we do not get some sort of CB this window (which won't happen), I find it hard to believe we will be in contention for much of anything. The balance of the team is just completely off and without that center back I do not see a way to reclaim it.

I'd take top 4 now if you offered frankly.