Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[SMD]

[RBrittain]

His situation resembles greatly to Kuyt. Both are decent in all areas rather than brilliant in some areas. Both are efficient and committed players. Kuyt is a world cup runner up and so is rated by many managers. So I wonder would Kuyt have the same passionate defense as in the case of Lucas? As to why is Kuyt rated so negative at the moment?

An interesting point. From what I've seen on RAWK, it is trendy to dislike Kuyt and trendy to like Lucas. For me, Kuyt is the better player. It's true that he doesn't excel in any one particular area, but he is "Good" in most areas, for me anyway, while Lucas is, for me, "Average to Good" in most areas. Certainly, Lucas can still improve, but at this moment in time, I feel Kuyt is the better player (though it's a bit daft to compare a DM with an Attacker, really).

I'm not quite sure why it is the norm here to dislike Kuyt but like Lucas, when they are indeed fairly similar in the sense you gave, but that's definitely the vibe I've gotten. Perhaps it has changed slightly since the Everton game, as Dirk put in a sterling performance. People on here tend to have short memories.

I think one possible reason is that people here have an obsession with youth. I've noticed a lot of people here say, "Let's ship Gerrard, Carra, Kuyt right now, as they're all 30" and then they propose the line-up they would like to see: It usually consists of Wilson and Kelly as a CB pairing, Pacheco up front...

Such notions are baffling naive to me, as it makes no sense at all to disregard any player who is 30, in an era when players regularly remain at the top of their game until 35. But I have an inkling that the reason Lucas is trendy here while Dirk isn't, is in part down to that age difference: "Kuyt is old, past it. Lucas is the future."

[GrkStav]

We should keep Lucas because he is better than Alonso

Please upgrade the quality of your bait.

Thanks.

[SMD]

An interesting point. From what I've seen on RAWK, it is trendy to dislike Kuyt and trendy to like Lucas. For me, Kuyt is the better player. It's true that he doesn't excel in any one particular area, but he is "Good" in most areas, for me anyway, while Lucas is, for me, "Average to Good" in most areas. Certainly, Lucas can still improve, but at this moment in time, I feel Kuyt is the better player (though it's a bit daft to compare a DM with an Attacker, really).

I'm not quite sure why it is the norm here to dislike Kuyt but like Lucas, when they are indeed fairly similar in the sense you gave, but that's definitely the vibe I've gotten. Perhaps it has changed slightly since the Everton game, as Dirk put in a sterling performance. People on here tend to have short memories.

I think one possible reason is that people here have an obsession with youth. I've noticed a lot of people here say, "Let's ship Gerrard, Carra, Kuyt right now, as they're all 30" and then they propose the line-up they would like to see: It usually consists of Wilson and Kelly as a CB pairing, Pacheco up front...

Such notions are baffling naive to me, as it makes no sense at all to disregard any player who is 30, in an era when players regularly remain at the top of their game until 35. But I have an inkling that the reason Lucas is trendy here while Dirk isn't, is in part down to that age difference: "Kuyt is old, past it. Lucas is the future."

You're new here, aren't you?

[redmark]

Let's be honest here... He is a bit overrated on RAWK, ain't he?

I mean you get the odd moron that thinks he's a shite footballer, but then too many go the total opposite and make him out to be a world beater already. I actually think the point someone made on here the other day was a decent one. What is this stand out attribute he has that makes him potentially amongst the best in the world?

I'll defend his ability all day long, but who has actually given a convincing answer to that?

Interesting and fair comment. But what single stand-out attribute did Ronnie Whelan have in the mid/late 80s side?

I think your point about RAWK illustrates that there are a handful of posters who like to think of themselves as deep tactical thinkers, who dismiss anyone who disagrees with their analysis as 'typical Sky-washed English fans', or similar. Which is unfair and cliched, repetitive bollocks. "If you don't get Lucas, you don't understand football". Even when written in Yorky's excellent prose, it's still shite debating technique.

It took me a while to appreciate Lucas. Not because I don't "get" that role, or that sort of player; but because I do think there were genuine doubts about whether he was (consistently) good enough. But I think he's addressed those doubts, emphatically, over the last 18 months+. I remember posting something about whether he might be a better 'instinctive' player, as his errors seemed to come when he had to think, and had time to do so. He's still weaker when having to 'force' things, or finds himself in a creative position or near the opposition box. But, overall, that's not the end of the world. I disagree with those saying "I wish he'd shoot more". I'd be quite happy if he did what he does, keep play ticking over, use the ball intelligently, break up opposition attacks, put in the odd thunderous tackle when needed (and he can), stand up for his teammates when needed (and he does).

Lucas will (probably) never be a "world class" player (or at least, perceived as such). That's ok. Ronnie Whelan was never world class. He was voted 30th in the list of top 100 Liverpool players though, and something similar is a realistic aim for Lucas. He could be doing a very effective, important job for Liverpool for another 10 years. The urge to claim his as world class is ridiculous and unnecessary (as is the urge to sell him).

[Lofty Ambitions]

That's a great summary mate. Got me thinking...

I was reading an interview of Sami Hyypia just the other day. The article was about the ridiculuous wages the modern players are making, and how Sami still stands out above all the mercenaries and journeymen of the modern football. While Sami himself admits the pay does reflect how good you are, he goes on to say the money has never been the objective for him. He mentions leaving Liverpool was one the biggest decisions he had ever made, and how he thought long and hard before selecting the Leverkusen who he felt offered a package where he still gets to play a lot of first team football and where he can make a difference.

Rudi Voller goes on to make a statement Hyypia has been the recruit of the decade for them, how he is just the ultimate professional as far as he is concerned, and how he, although he played until 36 (iirc), could not have maintained the level Sami does.

The reporter goes on to add his own comments, like how "Sami's face lights up with a huge smile when he talks about playing the game".

Then, the question is: was Sami a "world class player" for us? Was he average? Better than average?

It does not really matter does it?

Sami was a top bloke, his attitude was absolutely second to none and I mean that literally. The guy just oozes class, very few players can match that. On the pitch, off the pitch.

While Lucas will never be a new Alonso or a new Mascher, he has all the changes to be the new Lucas. There is a lot of similarity in his attitude with Sami the Rock, and if he continues to carry on with that, I have no doubt that he could reach a similar status to Sami over the coming years. A calm presence on the field, someone you can always rely to be there to do his job.

Whether he will remain to be judged as an average player, better than average player, or even world class player, interests me not.

I just pray Fowler he remains our player.

PS A top thread, this. A lot of calm and patience shown here. Let us keep it so. Lucas will prove us lucaslovers to be right.     

[MassDriver]

Tired of defending Lucas against each new knobhead that comes waltzing into this thread , demanding to have a debate which has already been had like a thousand times. Read the fucking thread.

Its time we had a poll on Lucas to put it to bed. I will change my user name to dumb fuck if he gets less than 80 % of votes in his favour.

[Lofty Ambitions]

Tired of defending Lucas against each new knobhead that comes waltzing into this thread , demanding to have a debate which has already been had like a thousand times. Read the fucking thread.

Its time we had a poll on Lucas to put it to bed. I will change my user name to dumb fuck if he gets less than 80 % of votes in his favour.

He might only get 78%, oh mighty D.F. 

[MassDriver]

He might only get 78%, oh mighty D.F. 

He got around 88 % in the 'best player of the season so far' thread. I'll take my chances. 

[Roger Federer]

As usual, a very good post. I don't agree with everything you write on here (I do this time though), but always enjoy reading your posts.

[LiamG]

That's a great summary mate. Got me thinking...

I was reading an interview of Sami Hyypia just the other day. The article was about the ridiculuous wages the modern players are making, and how Sami still stands out above all the mercenaries and journeymen of the modern football. While Sami himself admits the pay does reflect how good you are, he goes on to say the money has never been the objective for him. He mentions leaving Liverpool was one the biggest decisions he had ever made, and how he thought long and hard before selecting the Leverkusen who he felt offered a package where he still gets to play a lot of first team football and where he can make a difference.

Rudi Voller goes on to make a statement Hyypia has been the recruit of the decade for them, how he is just the ultimate professional as far as he is concerned, and how he, although he played until 36 (iirc), could not have maintained the level Sami does.

The reporter goes on to add his own comments, like how "Sami's face lights up with a huge smile when he talks about playing the game".

Then, the question is: was Sami a "world class player" for us? Was he average? Better than average?

It does not really matter does it?

Sami was a top bloke, his attitude was absolutely second to none and I mean that literally. The guy just oozes class, very few players can match that. On the pitch, off the pitch.

While Lucas will never be a new Alonso or a new Mascher, he has all the changes to be the new Lucas. There is a lot of similarity in his attitude with Sami the Rock, and if he continues to carry on with that, I have no doubt that he could reach a similar status to Sami over the coming years. A calm presence on the field, someone you can always rely to be there to do his job.

Whether he will remain to be judged as an average player, better than average player, or even world class player, interests me not.

I just pray Fowler he remains our player.

PS A top thread, this. A lot of calm and patience shown here. Let us keep it so. Lucas will prove us lucaslovers to be right.     

Sami was world class

[Lofty Ambitions]

Sami was world class

 

[Sangria]

Interesting and fair comment. But what single stand-out attribute did Ronnie Whelan have in the mid/late 80s side?

I think your point about RAWK illustrates that there are a handful of posters who like to think of themselves as deep tactical thinkers, who dismiss anyone who disagrees with their analysis as 'typical Sky-washed English fans', or similar. Which is unfair and cliched, repetitive bollocks. "If you don't get Lucas, you don't understand football". Even when written in Yorky's excellent prose, it's still shite debating technique.

But surely it's not much to ask for, that the first thing you need to understand to assess any player fairly is there's a team out there, and not just an individual player. If people can't understand this first principle, but insist on seeing players as individuals, isolated from the team concept, how can you properly discuss?

[Discipline]

Sami was world class

He still is. He's raping all in Bundesliga. 

[BIGdavalad]

my reasons are not rocket science... Kenny wants to make pass and move system of playing... Lucas doesnt fit to that style imo.

Of all of our first team midfielders Lucas is arguably the most able to play true pass and move.

[Hank Scorpio]

Fuck me, who is claiming that he is world class?  That's almost as bad as those who claimed he was shit 2 years ago.

I think Vulmea said it a couple of days ago; why do we need to go to extremes?  He is a good player who is progressing all the time. 

I do think there is more to come from him.  The positions he takes up and the off the ball running he does should result in a lot more goals.  He is tireless but as yet he seems to get stage fright in front of goal.  I believe he scored a fair few while in Brazil.

And Juan, that's probably the answer to your question.  If he starts to score a few goals on top of the other little bits and pieces he does there is potentially a world class player there.

[Sangria]

Of all of our first team midfielders Lucas is arguably the most able to play true pass and move.

I'd say that Gerrard can do everything but better, but it requires a conscious reining in of his instincts, and limits his game. More often than not, he doesn't bother to rein it in, but goes for it, leaving the midfield (meaning Lucas) undermanned and on the back foot. That's why he can play there occasionally and play well, but the team would be better off with Gerrard as one of the front 4, and design the team accordingly.

[SMD]

Gerrard can't see beyond his own feet tactically.

[The 5th Benitle]

my reasons are not rocket science... Kenny wants to make pass and move system of playing... Lucas doesnt fit to that style imo.

You couldn't be wider of the mark. That is EXACTLY the style of play Lucas suits best.

Where does this shit come from?

[The 5th Benitle]

I think the problem with Lucas is that when people start overrating by comparing him with the likes of Xavi,Busquets,Gerrard. That is what makes some Liverpool fans angry.

But they don't, so save the outrage. Comparing a player's style with another does not mean they are saying he is as good as them. If the detractors bore that in mind rather than skim reading posts, seeing a class players name and ranting, these threads would be a lot more sensible.

[The 5th Benitle]

Let's be honest here... He is a bit overrated on RAWK, ain't he?

I mean you get the odd moron that thinks he's a shite footballer, but then too many go the total opposite and make him out to be a world beater already.

But they don't mate. I haven't seen anyone say he is world class, only that he has the potential still to become so.

[The 5th Benitle]

Ronnie Whelan? He thinks Lucas isn't good enough for LFC. Wouldn't he appreciate Lucas if he was "very similar" to him?

How exactly are they similar, other than that they played in a similar position? I'd say their styles of play are pretty dissimilar.

Ronnie Whelan was a great player for us. But he does not understand modern football in the slightest. Very sad.

[leivapool]

Please please please mods, could we have a poll?  get the results and close this merry go round of a thread?!

Thanks

[leivapool]

Oh and just for the record I think Lucas will be world class in a couple of years, not now, but soon.

My opinion?  Lucas is  one of the best pass and move players we have.  If Kenny brings back pass and move, and it already looks like he is, then Lucas will be integral to the team.

[Sangria]

Oh and just for the record I think Lucas will be world class in a couple of years, not now, but soon.

My opinion?  Lucas is  one of the best pass and move players we have.  If Kenny brings back pass and move, and it already looks like he is, then Lucas will be integral to the team.

I don't know if he's the best pass and move player or not. But I do know he's a player who does fit that pattern, and Liverpool should be looking for as many players of his type as possible, before even starting to pick out the best and dropping the rest. Agger, Kelly, Lucas, Aurelio, Maxi, Johnson, Meireles. Accepting Reina, Gerrard and Torres as the outliers, that's 7 of the other 8 outfield positions filled if Kelly plays at CB. Add a left winger and we're sorted for the strongest XI, and can start looking to strengthen the squad. It's a pity Aquilani and Insua were shipped out, as two others who fit that mould.

Fill the squad with such players, and get as many of them on the pitch as possible, and the manager will have the tools with which to do good things.

[Yorkykopite]

The fact is, that although Lucas may no be the calibre of your elite CMs, if you plugged him into almost any XI that plays good football, Lucas would not look out of place.

I think this is a very shrewd comment. If Liverpool get better players than they've curently got then Lucas will more than hold his own. He'll continue to mystify the ignorant, but he'll be the lubricating oil that keeps the machine performing fluently. I don't think he'll ever be in the class of Alonso as a deep-lying playmaker (but then again who, apart from Pirlo, has belonged to that class in the last 10 years?). His mere presence in a poorish team does not improve the play of every other single member like Xabi's did. His loss to Liverpool would not result in every other player's performance deteriorating. Nonetheless he is consistently among our better players and his short, quick, stabbing passing style would hurt, and even destroy, more opponents if there was the equivalent of Barnes and Beardsley being found in space by Lucas, not Kuyt and Ngog.

You go on to mention Busquets. It's a good comparison. Busquets, at the moment is a superior player to Lucas. He takes more risks, he has more tricks, he seems to have quicker feet. But playing for a team like Barcelona undoubtedly helps to bring these qualities out - especially risk-taking. And I could still see Lucas slotting into that Barca team and maintaining their high tempo. In a side that dominates possession and moves the ball quickly he'd never let you down - unlike say Mascherano whose move to Barca is bewildering given his tendency to require two or three touches before he has the ball where he really wants it.

Juan Loco asks whether Lucas has any real stand-out qualities? I'd say his reading of the game is amazing. His movement in relationship to the ball is better than any other Liverpool player (including even Torres). It's no wonder that Rafa liked him. Time and again when we're in trouble the player to snuff out the fire before it's really roaring is Lucas. You look up, as a spectator, see a single fireman and know that it's almost bound to be Lucas - even when seconds before he seemed to be in another area of the pitch entirely. He has similarly good judgement about when to get beyond the ball and join an attack too. But many of his runs forward are wasted at the momemnt because we have too many players incapable of spotting them or delivering a quick, accurate pass to make them count.   

[Sangria]

He has similarly good judgement about when to get beyond the ball and join an attack too. But many of his runs forward are wasted at the momemnt because we have too many players incapable of spotting them or delivering a quick, accurate pass to make them count.   

The Everton game, Liverpool break. Torres has the ball, with Kuyt peeling off to his right. Torres occupies 2-3 defenders, while 1 remaining defender covers Kuyt. Sprinting 40 odd yards to join the attack, Lucas overloads this single defender, forcing him to cover either Kuyt or Lucas, but not both. Torres doesn't play the simple pass, but continues to run, eventually being dispossessed by the multiple defenders surrounding him. You can see Lucas making up the ground with a decent turn of pace, untracked by anyone, then you can see him looking at the sky with disappointment, as yet another lungs-breaking run is ignored.

[Hank Scorpio]

I'd say his off the ball running and breaks into the box are reminiscent of Ljungberg's for Arsenal a few seasons ago.  Very difficult to track.

I think we don't have the team to exploit this asset at the moment.  As Yorky says most of his runs are fruitless because the ball doesn't end up where it should.  Glenn Johnson is another one who would benefit from better ball retention so that he could make late runs into the final third.

[redmark]

Sangria: re Lucas and debating points - sure, Lucas should be considered in the context of the team (as should any player). Reasoned debate to illuminate that point is to be welcomed. Put downs like 'sky washed' and the tactical naivety of the English are counter productive, provocative and about as good for a decent thread as a 'Lucas is shit' post.

On Gerrard and a front four - why not a front five? The 4231 back 6/front 4 isn't an immutable law and, I think, not dalglish's preference (which may also be entirely more fluid and not think in such terms at all).

[leivapool]

The Everton game, Liverpool break. Torres has the ball, with Kuyt peeling off to his right. Torres occupies 2-3 defenders, while 1 remaining defender covers Kuyt. Sprinting 40 odd yards to join the attack, Lucas overloads this single defender, forcing him to cover either Kuyt or Lucas, but not both. Torres doesn't play the simple pass, but continues to run, eventually being dispossessed by the multiple defenders surrounding him. You can see Lucas making up the ground with a decent turn of pace, untracked by anyone, then you can see him looking at the sky with disappointment, as yet another lungs-breaking run is ignored.

At what point whill Lucas stop trying these runs?  and do you think others have been told to look for them yet?  Do we think he is getting ignored because the team is still at 6's and 7's over formation/tactics this season.  Or because they are unused to looking for Lucas in these positions?

[Sangria]

At what point whill Lucas stop trying these runs?  and do you think others have been told to look for them yet?  Do we think he is getting ignored because the team is still at 6's and 7's over formation/tactics this season.  Or because they are unused to looking for Lucas in these positions?

As someone who used to play in midfield, I blame the tendency of forwards to have no awareness of anything but the patch of grass directly ahead of them. Shirkers with their heads up their own arse, the whole lot of them.

[Vidocq]

You couldn't be wider of the mark. That is EXACTLY the style of play Lucas suits best.

Where does this shit come from?

to be honest Aquilani suits to pass and move style...sad thing we cant get him back

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

At what point whill Lucas stop trying these runs?  and do you think others have been told to look for them yet?  Do we think he is getting ignored because the team is still at 6's and 7's over formation/tactics this season.  Or because they are unused to looking for Lucas in these positions?

If my estimation of him is right - never. If for a certain football situation, it dictates that Lucas should make the support run, then Lucas will make that run.Once there, he's done his bit. After that, the baton passes to the teammate. Do anything less, then whatever happens to the team, you're letting yourself down. Any one who's played football knows the situation - you make the cross, your teammates are not good enough to anticipate it, you make the dummy run, dragging one of their markers, creating a two / three second gap for a teammate, he's not reading it etc. Your coach, even you yourself can have a word after the game and iron it out, but if you stop doing the things that make you the player you are, you start declining. 

It's the top level of decision-making, and I think Arsene Wenger touched on this as well some months back. When it comes to these things, I firmly believe Lucas is among the best at the club.

If some of his attackers keep making the wrong decisions, it's them that Kenny needs to have a word with. Look at the way Barcelona play, and very rarely is an ideal pass wasted, or a good run not spotted. It's the type of anticipation and understanding Kenny and Clarke need to implement in our attack.

If the switch to a 3 in midfield (with two offensive minded cm's) is going to be permanent, then it's essential we make the best of the increased attacking thrust. If we're not going to do that, might as well stick to a mainly four man attack.

[redmark]

I want an 11 man defence and a 9 or 10 man attack.

[Juan Loco]

And Juan, that's probably the answer to your question.  If he starts to score a few goals on top of the other little bits and pieces he does there is potentially a world class player there.

Well yeah, but you can say that about a few players can't you? If Meireles scored more goals then he would potentially be a world class player. Much as I agree with your points on his movement and occasional ghosting runs (which did remind me of Scholes initially), I find it hard to argue with anyone who suggests he falls to pieces in front of goal at present. That's something of a vicious circle. I know his composure in front of goal would improve with more goals, but he has to have composure to score them. Over the last 4 seasons or so he's missed enough chances that should've been buried that I think it's fair comment if someone wants to say he's pretty terrible at finishing. So yeah, if he scored more goals I would agree with you. He doesn't though. And his finishing doesn't lead you to believe he's likely to, although I live in hope.

Juan Loco asks whether Lucas has any real stand-out qualities? I'd say his reading of the game is amazing. His movement in relationship to the ball is better than any other Liverpool player (including even Torres). It's no wonder that Rafa liked him. Time and again when we're in trouble the player to snuff out the fire before it's really roaring is Lucas. You look up, as a spectator, see a single fireman and know that it's almost bound to be Lucas - even when seconds before he seemed to be in another area of the pitch entirely. He has similarly good judgement about when to get beyond the ball and join an attack too. But many of his runs forward are wasted at the momemnt because we have too many players incapable of spotting them or delivering a quick, accurate pass to make them count.   

How long did it take to get an answer on this? It wasn't my question initially mate, I just thought it was one that was worth asking.

For what it's worth I enjoyed your assessment on him and agreed with plenty of it, but I think it falls in to the bigger problem of the shape of the team. I compare Lucas to Coady in the youth teams at present. I think there's a lot of their game which is very similar. Coady plays in a team with a fantastic shape however. And comparitively speaking, with higher quality compared to their respective opponents than the first team. So I'd go along totally with your point about Lucas at Barcelona because they have a great team shape and far better individuals. I think this borne out to an extent with how he plays for Brazil (although he has a shocker or two for them which never gets mentioned on here).

What I would say though is that I think Lucas really lacks if a midfielder gets goal side of him. Masch had the recovery pace and the perfectly timed slide tackle. Lucas can't win the ball when someone gets back the wrong side of him. Not uncommon, no. Again though, it's that 'stand out' ability that it brings up. Especially if he's going to play that position in this league, where midfielders have a hard-on for getting in the box and shooting from 20 yards.

It's nice to see there's actually a reasonably civil debate about it this morning at least. Better than what it has been liked when I've popped in Lucas threads, where it either seems to be a certainty that he'll make it and that you "don't understand the game" if you feel otherwise. Or, it's a certainty that he's shit and would struggle to get into Wycombe reserves.


Redmark - Whelan was a little before my time. Seen the odd game on the tele thanks to the club channel but the first thought I have of him is the curler against the Mancs in the league cup final, which is probably unaccurate. And I'd find it difficult to compare Lucas to that.

... Havant and Waterlooville wasn't a bad effort though.

[Hazell]

What I would say though is that I think Lucas really lacks if a midfielder gets goal side of him. Masch had the recovery pace and the perfectly timed slide tackle. Lucas can't win the ball when someone gets back the wrong side of him. Not uncommon, no. Again though, it's that 'stand out' ability that it brings up. Especially if he's going to play that position in this league, where midfielders have a hard-on for getting in the box and shooting from 20 yards.

I think you're right about the first part, his actual tackling is fine but recovery wise when he's behind someone not as good. I don't necessarily think he needs a 'stand out ability' (though I think he reading of game and his intelligence is probably it, much like Alonso's was) - like others have said, he's good at a lot of things which makes him a useful member of the team. What I think that all allies to is him giving a platform for others going forward. For numerous reasons, we've struggled over the last 18 months but Lucas has been our most consistent player. In fact, he's been pretty consistent in his time here, gradually improving season upon season. Unfortunately, his escaltion into being a regular has coincided with poor recent form and as a result, some of the blame is either apportioned to him or his improvement has been neglected (although that is improving).

It's nice to see there's actually a reasonably civil debate about it this morning at least. Better than what it has been liked when I've popped in Lucas threads, where it either seems to be a certainty that he'll make it and that you "don't understand the game" if you feel otherwise. Or, it's a certainty that he's shit and would struggle to get into Wycombe reserves.

To be fair, hardly anyone praising him in an over the top way and most are just reactions to to the latter.

[leivapool]

I'm still wondering why Lucas triggers SO much debate, yet players like Maxi float almost invisibly under the radar.

 Maxi's not been here long, but already has a cool song and the fans seem to like him.  Why so much hate/dislike/doubt (delete as applicable) towards Lucas?  My opinion is that Maxi is a nice little player, but he has just as many flaws as Lucas, yet people aren't constantly debating his strengths/weaknesses?
 

[Yorkykopite]

What I would say though is that I think Lucas really lacks if a midfielder gets goal side of him. Masch had the recovery pace and the perfectly timed slide tackle. Lucas can't win the ball when someone gets back the wrong side of him. Not uncommon, no. Again though, it's that 'stand out' ability that it brings up. Especially if he's going to play that position in this league, where midfielders have a hard-on for getting in the box and shooting from 20 yards.

That's a fair point - although I think perhaps you meant to say it was 'not common'? Let's face it most of the goals we concede have nothing to do with opposing midfielders breaking through the centre and getting beyond Lucas. But, certainly he doesn't have the recovery pace of Mascherano (or Gerrard, or Momo). Neither had Alonso of course. But I believe Lucas - like Alonso - reads the game better than the other three and often nips problems in the bud, undemonstrably (and therefore beyond the ken of fans who only see a tackle when it's preceded by a 20-yard chase).

I'll give you another problem Lucas has though. For free. He's poor at running with the ball if he's being chased from behind. This bewilders me because he's not actually that slow (unlike say Didi, who also preferred to fall on the ball than try and escape a pursuer). It's partly in the mind with Lucas. It must be. I know, for instance, that Rafa used to warn Alonso not to run with the ball if he got beyond his man. He told him that in the Premier League he would always be caught by a slide tackle, unlike in La Liga where pursuers often give up the ghost). No doubt the same message was drummed into young Lucas. And, indeed, the lad often went to ground even before the slide tackle came in. There have encouraging signs recently, however, that Lucas has conquered this phobia. He's started to alter the direction of his run once he's got beyond his man. He seems less inclined to settle for the foul.

[Juan Loco]

That's a fair point - although I think perhaps you meant to say it was 'not common'? Let's face it most of the goals we concede have nothing to do with opposing midfielders breaking through the centre and getting beyond Lucas. But, certainly he doesn't have the recovery pace of Mascherano (or Gerrard, or Momo). Neither had Alonso of course. But I believe Lucas - like Alonso - reads the game better than the other three and often nips problems in the bud, undemonstrably (and therefore beyond the ken of fans who only see a tackle when it's preceded by a 20-yard chase).

Sorry mate. It was a poorly constructed sentence. I meant it wasn't an uncommon trait for a Premiership midfielder. Not that it was something that happened to Lucas in particular on a regular basis.

[liverpooll]

I'm still wondering why Lucas triggers SO much debate, yet players like Maxi float almost invisibly under the radar.

 Maxi's not been here long, but already has a cool song and the fans seem to like him.  Why so much hate/dislike/doubt (delete as applicable) towards Lucas?  My opinion is that Maxi is a nice little player, but he has just as many flaws as Lucas, yet people aren't constantly debating his strengths/weaknesses?
 

Talk about missing the point.

No one is saying that Lucas is a crap player. We all know he is a good player just like Kuyt, Merillies. But again, it is this kind of post which makes this discussion more heated. There are tons of supporters like you who start questioning the rights to criticize or basically saying something which is not positive in the case Lucas.

You can clearly see the tread of this thread when people start comparing him with the likes of better players like Gerrard, Xavi, Busquests and saying he is on par and will be better.

Imo, we have waited for 2 years and nothing "new" has come out from Lucas. If it is consistency which people love about Lucas, then it is consistency decent at most which he has shown much like Kuyt.