Topic: Why the hell not?

[Gee, Stevie]

I'll try not to go over ground that was covered with mind-numbing repitition during the last month of th transfer window, particularly the last two or so weeks....

But when I see people write something like: 'We (LFC) won't pay that much for one player'; one one hand I understamd where they're coming from, and on the other I find myself saying 'why the hell not'?. 

If we're the European champions, have some money, any money to spend, why not spend it, all of it on fixing the problems with our squad, as identified by the manager?  We could very well be tabling bids for Joaquin (although Rafa's recent comments might be evidence to the contrary) or Simao in January.  Circumstances - such as Betis & Benfica' s exit from the ECC - might make those two a tad cheaper.  But why would we go for them in January, plus a CB, when we needed them in July?

I know we can't be held to ransom.  But we're LFC, and we can't afford to settle.  Why some could say buying Jermain Pennant (to use a random example) for the right, with no one else available, would be considered 'settling'.  But would having Pennan in our sqaud, right now, make us a better team?  Hell yes it would.  Pennant doesn't have to become the best winger int he world, but if he helps make our team better, blimey, I reckon we shoulda bought him, rather than... no one!

If we're Liverpool Football Club, and our brilliant manager has identified potential signings that could solve our problems, make our team resemble something that Rafa would want it to, why the hell hasn't he got his men? 

I seriously hope that Rafa has not been told, 'sorry, we can't afford to buy him'.

[SMD]

No but saying we should break the bank for a player that would adversely affect spending on the rest of our squad does.

Would you prefer Simao and a centre back or just Joaquin?

[mig]

we don't have a good enought squad to start spending big on single players. we're still short a centre-back and a right winger. once we've got decent quality on all the positions in the squad, then we can start spending big on single players as not many positions/players need sorting out/replacing.

and i wouldn't exactly say we haven't spent big. 10.5mil for xabi is a big amount, even though we pretty much robbed socieded for the quality we got. 14mil for cisse is even bigger. the thing is, our big money spending isn't really noticed compared to chelsea's 21mil buy for a bench warmer.

rafa and the board haven't exactly said they won't spend big either. they just said they won't overpay for a player like chelsea do, which is smart.

[Ole Gunnar]

Why the hell not?? Because when we make a bid for a player, thats it, we can negotiate, nut not be held ransom.
And in long term, that can only bee good, other clubs will know that when LFC makes a bid, thats it, no point in trying to make an extra million or two.
£1-£2m is actually quite a lot, pay the extra mill or two from time to time, and all of a sudden it's a lot of money!
With Chelsea everybody knows they can raise the asking price to insane levels, but for them it doesn't matter, they have a bottomless transfer kitty.
I bet you a lot of clubs raised their asking price when the european champions came asking, and I think it was the right decision to not pay up. Maybe we can get our targets in january a lot cheaper??
I know they should have arrived in the summer, but hopefully Rafa will be around for a long time, and it will pay of on the long term. 

[Walter Sobchak]

im delighted we're not paying over the odds for players anymore..if the club give in and pay out for one over priced player then its a licence for any club whose players we enquire about to raise their price even higher.
This has been the case in the past, especially under houllier when we wer forced to pay out ridiculous sums for players no one had heard of and all because it was clear we wer willing to pay over the odds...now its clear we wont be held to ransom im confident we'll find it easier to get the players we want.

[BarneyAKRubble3]

If we table a £15 million or so bid for Joaquin then Chelsea or Real Madrid are just going to offer a higher offer. We can't compete with those sides financially, and there's no need to. We won the CL with our most expensive player being a £10 million Alonso. If the £10 million player is as good as Alonso what's the need to spend more than that? Especially when we have £6 million player who gets as many goals and assists as some players more than double his price.

I'm proud that we're not one of the clubs spending £15 million plus on one player, £10 million maximum is fine.

[Gnurglan]

The problem is we ended up with nothing. That will cost too.

We could easily have kept Nunez and spent all the cash on a CB. Or we could have let go of Nunez and found a cheap replacement for RM (and a CB). There were other things we could have done. We did the worst of all alternatives. We sold Nunez and ended up not one, but two players short (CB and RM) of where we wanted to be.

We know what we want. Let's find it and let's be prepared to pay the price too. Had we spent 10M on Sami all those years ago, no-one would have questioned that sum now.

[Rushian]

It's not we won't pay, it's often we can't pay. We haven't got an Abrahmovic backing us, dubious land deals like Real Madrid or prepared to go very deep into debt like some other clubs.

[Gnurglan]

If we table a £15 million or so bid for Joaquin then Chelsea or Real Madrid are just going to offer a higher offer. We can't compete with those sides financially, and there's no need to. We won the CL with our most expensive player being a £10 million Alonso. If the £10 million player is as good as Alonso what's the need to spend more than that? Especially when we have £6 million player who gets as many goals and assists as some players more than double his price.

We don't know if Chelsea & Co would bid. Likely, yes, but we don't know. We should do what we think is right anyway. If we want Joaquin and if we think we can afford him, let's bid and see what happens.

Money won't solve all our problems, but we also need to accept that quality players cost money.

[Mighty_Red]

It's not we won't pay, it's often we can't pay. We haven't got an Abrahmovic backing us, dubious land deals like Real Madrid or prepared to go very deep into debt like some other clubs.

Thats absolutely fair enough, but I think the main problem with most ppl is that, once we knew Gonzelaz wasnt coming, we didnt look to bring in a cheap replacement and the Simao move was done too late to be able to rescue when there was a hitch.

We now find our options severely limited, and we have to pray to a higher being that Hyypia regains form & fitness, (not to mention the sacrafice we need to perform to ensure Carra stays fit & healthy)

I really dont care about being linked with the biggest & baddest names in the world, I dont mind if Rafa looks outside the norm to secure cheap unknowns for the short term, in fact I trust him to do so, which is why Im so disappointed that we ended up with no1, apart from kids that are for our future.

[StormyDog]

I am happier to end up wth no-one than being asked to put faith into the wrong one (Nunez) only to have the player let the fans and the team down.

We know that RW isn't Cisse's position but if RAFA had bought him to fill in on the RW till next year I would be v. disapointed.

[Ian-G]

once we knew Gonzelaz wasnt coming, we didnt look to bring in a cheap replacement

I thought we went in for Stelios and Solano?

I can't believe the pair of them turned us down to stay at their respective clubs.

And Figo, he obviously didn't feel Liverpool was the place to spend a year of his football life, where he would have played every week, and been adored by the crowd.

Nothing we could have done about that. And I would have been disapointed If Rafa had payed over the odds for any of them, just for the sake of getting someone in.

I get the feeling Rafa is saving a huge chunk of the money for one top class player - either a centre back or winger, depending on who is available.

[mig]

Thats absolutely fair enough, but I think the main problem with most ppl is that, once we knew Gonzelaz wasnt coming, we didnt look to bring in a cheap replacement and the Simao move was done too late to be able to rescue when there was a hitch.

We now find our options severely limited, and we have to pray to a higher being that Hyypia regains form & fitness, (not to mention the sacrafice we need to perform to ensure Carra stays fit & healthy)

I really dont care about being linked with the biggest & baddest names in the world, I dont mind if Rafa looks outside the norm to secure cheap unknowns for the short term, in fact I trust him to do so, which is why Im so disappointed that we ended up with no1, apart from kids that are for our future.

i don't get it. isn't gonzales a left-sided player? how come his name always pops up in RW topics?

[Robinred]

I can only assume that Nunez was allowed to leave because the club were 'sure' of his replacement. Given his start at Celta Vigo - where he's starred and the team lies second in La Liga, I can only assume Rafa, privately, now regrets this bit of business.

As for the rest of it, I can't believe that Ged's appalling record in the market hasn't got something to do with our current paranoia about being ripped off...

[Rafa's Red's]

I can only assume that Nunez was allowed to leave because the club were 'sure' of his replacement. Given his start at Celta Vigo - where he's starred and the team lies second in La Liga, I can only assume Rafa, privately, now regrets this bit of business.

Nunez was'nt a Benitez signing so i doubt he'll be beating himself up about it. If Rafa started spending the money weve obviously got on players to buff up the squad just to give him a few alternative's then we would question, are these good enough. Rafa needs players that have everthing and not just flashes of brilliance. That's how we'll move forward.

[blert596]

Like someone said earlier...I'm not bothered about the biggest or best names. But I am concerned that we cant afford/attract the best quality.

Rafa has bought wisely with Xabi, Luis and Momo. All for relatively small fees. But for quality you have to pay. Settling for less should not be an option. I would rather pay decent money for Joaquin than middle money for Pennant.

Joaquin in our squad this season would make a huge difference to our performances (IMO). And if that means we have to wait till the end of the season for another TOP QUALITY centreback then I'm prepared to take that risk. Adding a high cost defender in January and not buying a quality RW/RM is certainly not going to help out our front line which is where we're struggling at the mo.

Defensively, we can patch up with Djimi or Zak if push comes to shove. As we've seen so far this season, we have absolutely no one to patch up the RW position adequately.

Oh yeah, and I was as baffled as much as anyone when Rafa let Nunez go without having the deal done and dusted.

[ratcatcher]

I think there's a mild case of paranoia when people start claiming we're being held to ransom on deals. Far from it and not because we're European Champsions. Clubs, no matter where they are from ie England or Europe, know we ply our trade in probably the richest (major) league in the world. In turn, they want a slice of that.

For anyone to suggest clubs want more from us than they do the mancs, arsenal or even spurs (discount Chelsea cos they'll just pay up in the end) is a defo case of myopia.

But the bottom line is, real 'quality' players or rather world class players don't grow on trees and, naturally, this pushes their price up. We have to decide whether we should pay the fee or look elsewhere and I get the feeling because money at LFC is tighter than some here want to admit, we have to look elsewhere. Sadly though all to often that means a lesser class of player unless we strike lucky.

So really its pay up or miss out.

[ratcatcher]

Nunez was'nt a Benitez signing so i doubt he'll be beating himself up about it.

Don't know where you get that bit of info from. Benitez signed Nunez as part of the Owen deal to Real. OK he didnt have much option but from the 'pool' of players Madrid were prepared to let go, Benitez chose Nunez.

[4pool]

Arsenal have done fairly well finding lesser names for reasonable fee's.

Why can't Rafa be afforded the same the process? He's done well enough with who he's bought.

Or is it all about why don't we spend 15-20 mil on someone before pundits think their club has money?

[Paul Tomkins]

I know we can't be held to ransom.  But we're LFC, and we can't afford to settle.  Why some could say buying Jermain Pennant (to use a random example) for the right, with no one else available, would be considered 'settling'.  But would having Pennan in our sqaud, right now, make us a better team?  Hell yes it would.  Pennant doesn't have to become the best winger int he world, but if he helps make our team better, blimey, I reckon we shoulda bought him, rather than... no one!

Not sure why you're talking about Pennant, and if you mean him specifically (confused about your random example bit), but the guy is a dick. I talk a bit about him in my book, using him as an example of the stupidity of some young English footballers.

There are some characters you just don't want around the place.

But dedicated, professional players of comparable talent - all well and good if it balances the team out.

But the price has to be right. Liverpool cannot spend money it doesn't have - and I'm sure we wouldn't like the club putting the ticket prices up to pay for a few players. If the club is going to pay a lot of money on a player, it has to be sure as, unlike Chelsea, we cannot afford to blow £20m on a player who might end up flopping.

[Garstonite]

I quite like Pennant in all honesty. Bit of an arsehole off the pitch but he's tricky and would be useful.

Very random that was though!

[Jon G]

Very random that was though!

Bit like his driving

[ratcatcher]

........................ we cannot afford to blow £20m on a player who might end up flopping.

There's no escaping the fact a player may flop no matter how much or little you may spend. It is a fact of life and one that cannot be dismissed. If that is the criteria (the £20m player may flop), we may as well keep our money in the bank and depend solely on the youth set up.

The days of finding a Keegan, Lloyd et al in the lower leagues have gone for good thanks in part to the excellent scouting systems employed by all top clubs nowadays.

If the player is proven quality, as in Owen's case, then we should be in there because as we have seen, some other 'big' club will step in. If we don't, our fourtune lies in permenantly buying the second teir rated players.

And that simply isnt good enough for LFC.

[Mighty_Red]

i don't get it. isn't gonzales a left-sided player? how come his name always pops up in RW topics?

He can play on both sides, but I think he is left footed, but then so is Garcia

I can only assume that Nunez was allowed to leave because the club were 'sure' of his replacement. Given his start at Celta Vigo - where he's starred and the team lies second in La Liga, I can only assume Rafa, privately, now regrets this bit of business.

As for the rest of it, I can't believe that Ged's appalling record in the market hasn't got something to do with our current paranoia about being ripped off...

I would have to agree with this. we all know that Nunez struggled at times, but he was a viable option that, in a more settled second season, may have done a job for us.
Im pretty sure that it was a case of Rafa letting him go (and Nunez wanting to go) because he wasnt in his plans, and he genuinely didnt want to keep a player for the sake of it. I guess Rafa thought that Nunez couldnt survive in the Prem (probably true).

We're not getting ripped off, its the same for every big club, big clubs tend to buy players doing well at lesser clubs and they are always going to be more expensive then the off-form player who has been a flop at a big club

[Gnurglan]

Arsenal have done fairly well finding lesser names for reasonable fee's.

Why can't Rafa be afforded the same the process? He's done well enough with who he's bought.

Or is it all about why don't we spend 15-20 mil on someone before pundits think their club has money?

It's also a question of time. I believe we could have taken a big step forward had we spent some heavy cash on 1-3 more players. As CL winners, we had the chance to attract almost any player on Earth. Now that we didn't spend, it will take longer for us to get where we want. And the next time we want to buy, we may not be able to attract all those players we could have signed this summer.

[Gee, Stevie]

Free signings (Zenden) can flop, 6 million pound signings can flop (Garcia), 10 million signings can flop (Xabi), and so can 15-20 million signings (Joaquin).  Not saying any of these are or will be flops, but there's a risk with any player, any investment.  Like any other type of investment, the higher the potential return, there's usually a higher risk associated with it.

If Zenden has a shocker year, then another, and we see the back of him - it's a case of ah well, we got him for nothing, no real harm done.  Spend 15-20M on Joaquin, and he doesn't live up to theexpectation & hype, and that's a real loss on a huge investment. 

No doubt making so-called 'squad' signings, like Zenden, are critical to success.  But Zenden won't take us from where we are to league champions.  Jaoquin 'might' be able to. 

Yes, we should always look to make additions to the sqaud, whether they be back up RMs or CBs, or 18 year olds that could be first teamers in 4 years time.  But to say we should wait to sign a 'Joaquin' type player when, sh1t, that's exactly what we need, stupid. 

We won't win the league being careful in the transfer market.  Weobviously have to be smart about what we spend money on... we'r not Chelsea.  But I don't want to say, hey, we bought the best we could being careful.  We're 10 points behind Chelsea, that's the best we could hope for.  Crap, go for it.  If Joaquin, at his best, all going to plan, could win us the league in a year or two... bloody well buy him.  Don't wait, pounce.

[SMD]

That doesn't make sense. If you want to buy something expensive for your house, you don't just go buy the most expensive one assuming it's the best. You shop around, look and think hard, check to see if it's compatible with what you've already got and if it'll actually fit in your room.
If you want to buy someone expensive for your team, you don't just go buy Joaquin assuming he'll fit in seamlessly and that he's the best.
That's the Alex Ferguson syndrome of buying big - he buys a player and then realises he hasn't a clue where to put him. Ranieri was similar and so was Houllier. The only reason Mourinho managed to get his balance so quickly was because of the fact he can afford mistakes. Tiago was sold at a loss of around £4m in just one season. That's a Finnan, a Sinama-Pongolle, a Gonzalez or a Riise to us. It's clear we need more depth in the squad, particularly at centre back. That £4m could make a difference.

It's too simplistic to just say "we need him, we have the money, let's go buy him".

[ours for keeps]

Joaquin is fookin quality though is he not??
If it is at ALL possible that he can come to this wonderful club of ours at a price the boss thinks is accepectable i for one will cycle over to Betis and give him a crossbar ride all the way to L4 (that should sway it !!)

[Sorted!!]

Leeds United anyone? Need l say more. We are Liverpool Football Club and we don't stand for any rubbish.

[Gee, Stevie]

That doesn't make sense. If you want to buy something expensive for your house, you don't just go buy the most expensive one assuming it's the best. You shop around, look and think hard, check to see if it's compatible with what you've already got and if it'll actually fit in your room.
If you want to buy someone expensive for your team, you don't just go buy Joaquin assuming he'll fit in seamlessly and that he's the best.
That's the Alex Ferguson syndrome of buying big - he buys a player and then realises he hasn't a clue where to put him. Ranieri was similar and so was Houllier. The only reason Mourinho managed to get his balance so quickly was because of the fact he can afford mistakes. Tiago was sold at a loss of around £4m in just one season. That's a Finnan, a Sinama-Pongolle, a Gonzalez or a Riise to us. It's clear we need more depth in the squad, particularly at centre back. That £4m could make a difference.

It's too simplistic to just say "we need him, we have the money, let's go buy him".

Maybe we stop with the analogies and get back to talking footy, which is what I think we're talking about.  Most houses aren't in a competition with the best houses in the country, haven't won the countries top prize (for houses) 18 times, Europe's top house 5 times, and don't have (house) fans salivating at the rpospect of getting back to where we once were....

We can be careful, but careful won't get us anywhere, when as everyone keeps saying, Chelsea make a 20 million pound cock-up and it gets a shrug of the shoulders from Roman. 

Whatever Rafa says our team is missing, go and get the best of that available.  If Rafa says all we need now is another CB and the best RM we can find, guess what we should do.  If that costs a total of 5M pounds and Rafa is happy... you beauty.  If that costs a total of 30M pounds and Rafa is happy (which would probably mean we're happy), then its money well spent.

Fair enough if those signings that will 'make Rafa happy' arent' actually out there, or weren't in the transfer window.  But the second they are available, its a flat out disgrace if we dont throw the kitchen sink to get our hands on them.  Sitting around and buying a few back up midfielders & 18 year olds won't take us to where we want to be.  I don't care if we'll be where we want to be in 5 years.  I can wait.  But I won't be happy about waiting, sitting, conceeding defeat to Chelsea (as half the bloody world seem content to do).  If we're behind the eight ball & need to take a few risks to have any chance of being the best, am I the only one who thinks taking a chance is the only option?

[Gee, Stevie]

I'll qualify that... I don't mean take chances that if they go wrong, we end up like a Leeds, I mean take a chance that if we sign a 20M pound RM, it comes off, we actually have a chance of winning the league, it doesn't, well shit, would we have had a chance if we didn't buy him?  Who that RM, for example, is, is up to Rafa.

[Gee, Stevie]

It's too simplistic to just say "we need him, we have the money, let's go buy him".

Why's that?  Sounds like it makes perfect sense to me

[SMD]

I understand what you're saying but what I'm disagreeing with is this assertion that Joaquin is the best or Rafa believes he is the best.

Benitez wanted Gonzalez and Figo above Joaquin. Money factored in or not, he clearly felt that those two players were enough to help us challenge. He wanted Milito, not Nesta or Lucio or whoever.

Therefore, if Joaquin is Rafa's third choice, he shouldn't shell out £20m or so for what is his perceived third choice.

[jfpower]

We are not Chelsea with an apparantly bottomless pit of money. They can afford to be screwed in every transfer.

We could afford to be screwed once or twice - but then selling clubs will try and screw us every time. Thsi is clearly happening to Chelsea - are Wright Phillips, essien, Drogba et al worth anything like Chelsea paid. Would any sensible team accept a 10 million offer from Chelsea knowing that they can and will pay 20 million.

We simply cannot afford to be screwed every time we buy a player or we will be bankrupt. Rafa made it clear that we will only pay what he reckons a player is worth so after initial negotions, selling clubs have a choice sell or get nothing. This is as it should be!

[KENTY]

We cant afford to break the bank on a twenty million plus player. I would rather have for example Simao and a centre half because it would be better for the squad than Jaoquin alone.

We need to be careful in the market because we cant splash the cash like Chelsea can. They can afford to lose money on players that dont work out, we simply cannot, this is why Rafa has to be very careful in the market because if he gets it wrong it is highly debatable whether or not we could then afford to replace that player.