Topic: Supporter Representation & 50+1 Voting Rights

[CornerTakenQuickly]

Think we need to use the opportunity this situation has given us and push for real change that protects fans, as otherwise there's nothing to safeguard from this happening again. Not to mention how the majority of us are fed up of how we are treated as fans by various organisations. Anyone know how fan ownership would actually work- how many fans would need to buy stakes? Would it require legislation? How could we push for this and is it feasible?

Not sure if this should go in the general football and sport thread, as I'm not sure if fans of other clubs have the same desire for this as Liverpool fans do, so it may end up being specific to Liverpool.

[Dull Tools]

For all the people saying this can't happen - even if we can't force through 51% ownership, the clubs can sell 1% of their shares but have the 1% share carry 51% voting rights.

[kavah]

Legislation - something to ask every politician about.

[Dim Glas]

I think it’s important to point out that German clubs aren’t fan owned.

You see the letters e.V. after most German football clubs if you look up their full and often very long names. e.V standing for eingetragener Verein. Which basically means a registered organisation - and all these registered organisations have members. So pretty much all these German clubs have members, and anyone can be one, and you don’t hve to commit long term, it’s a year on year thing. It’s not like you own a bit of the club, you are a member - with voting rights. It isn’t ownership.

Edited to add:
The 50+1 thing refers to shares - which the club retains, they have to retain 50% plus at least 1 share in the club. 

[CraigDS]

For all the people saying this can't happen - even if we can't force through 51% ownership, the clubs can sell 1% of their shares but have the 1% share carry 51% voting rights.

Yes but I’m fairly certain the Govt forcing owners who have paid hundreds of millions, if not billions, to give up controlling interest in their business would not get through the courts.

Unless I’m missing something here?

[The Lord Admiral]

Parliament makes the laws. The courts are there to enforce them.

If fans do manage to get legislation through, there'll be no point going to court.

It's getting this government to back the legislation that is the hard part.

[Dull Tools]

Yes but I’m fairly certain the Govt forcing owners who have paid hundreds of millions, if not billions, to give up controlling interest in their business would not get through the courts.

Unless I’m missing something here?

The labour government was pushing to renationalise the railways. That is much more difficult than this.

[CraigDS]

The labour government was pushing to renationalise the railways. That is much more difficult than this.

Not really.

A lot of those are Govt subsidised as it is, and they are awarded on relatively short contracts anyway aren’t they?

[Dull Tools]

Not really.

A lot of those are Govt subsidised as it is, and they are awarded on relatively short contracts anyway aren’t they?

They were discussing doing it with utility companies and broadband too.

[CraigDS]

They were discussing doing it with utility companies and broadband too.

Didn’t that involve the Govt buying these at a fair market rate though?

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

The labour government was pushing to renationalise the railways. That is much more difficult than this.

You really have to think about what nationalizing means for football. It's not going to be the utopia that you are thinking of.

Kneejerk reactions at times like this is very dangerous.

[diggerling!]

Yes but I’m fairly certain the Govt forcing owners who have paid hundreds of millions, if not billions, to give up controlling interest in their business would not get through the courts.

Unless I’m missing something here?

There needn't be any financial input from the fans to get the 51%. It's not a 51% financial share, it's a voting share that ensures fan control of all the big decisions affecting the club. By having each club under the same structure, it is expected that each 51% bloc will operate on similar lines and share the same interests, thereby ensuring the health of the football pyramid.

[CraigDS]

The German example with it changing is not really applicable either, as they were owned under a membership (non-profit) prior to 98 and the 50+1 rule was actually a weakening of this ownership rather than a change from private to fan.

I do think more fan representation is needed, and would like to see the 50+1 work somehow - but genuinely not sure how it could legally brought in over here.

[diggerling!]

You really have to think about what nationalizing means for football. It's not going to be the utopia that you are thinking of.

Kneejerk reactions at times like this is very dangerous.

It's not nationalisation. That would be 100% state ownership of each club. This is nothing close to that.

[CraigDS]

There needn't be any financial input from the fans to get the 51%. It's not a 51% financial share, it's a voting share that ensures fan control of all the big decisions affecting the club. By having each club under the same structure, it is expected that each 51% bloc will operate on similar lines and share the same interests, thereby ensuring the health of the football pyramid.

It’s the same problem though. Whether it’s 51% ownership or 51% voting rights - I doubt there is a legal grounding for forcing hundreds of private businesses to hand that over.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

It's not nationalisation. That would be 100% state ownership of each club. This is nothing close to that.

Sorry, if 100% of state ownership is not nationalization, I don't know what is. And why would anyone want that in the first place?

[★deb★, please ?]

It’s the same problem though. Whether it’s 51% ownership or 51% voting rights - I doubt there is a legal grounding for forcing hundreds of private businesses to hand that over.

Law is very subjective. In the name of national interest, the UK govt can do a lot. What the 6 have done is not only fuck over football, but rob the people of the UK of one of their biggest assets.
I see no moral problem in enforcing 50+1. Legal objections can be worked around.

[★deb★, please ?]

Sorry, if 100% of state ownership is not nationalization, I don't know what is. And why would anyone want that in the first place?

nobody is talking about 100% state ownership. Why are you trying to disrupt honest talks of a way forward?
Getting paid by FSG?

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

nobody is talking about 100% state ownership. Why are you trying to disrupt honest talks of a way forward?
Getting paid by FSG?

Someone just did say that. Or is 100% state ownership not mean 100% state ownership? What are we talking about here, an equal distribution of wealth?

Are you a Burnley fan?

[diggerling!]

Sorry, if 100% of state ownership is not nationalization, I don't know what is. And why would anyone want that in the first place?

Have another read of the post you quoted.

[Dull Tools]

You really have to think about what nationalizing means for football. It's not going to be the utopia that you are thinking of.

Kneejerk reactions at times like this is very dangerous.

I don't want to nationalise football. I was just saying that if the government can natioanlise industries then it has the power to enforce something like the 50+1 rule.

[★deb★, please ?]

Someone just did say that. Or is 100% state ownership not mean 100% state ownership? What are we talking about here, an equal distribution of wealth?

Are you a Burnley fan?

you are the only one who said that

[diggerling!]

I doubt there is a legal grounding for forcing hundreds of private businesses to hand that over.

Perhaps not, but there could be with a change in legislation.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

The German example with it changing is not really applicable either, as they were owned under a membership (non-profit) prior to 98 and the 50+1 rule was actually a weakening of this ownership rather than a change from private to fan.

I do think more fan representation is needed, and would like to see the 50+1 work somehow - but genuinely not sure how it could legally brought in over here.

I don't think in it's current guise 50+1 will work. But if we work on a supporters charter of some sort and get all the clubs to sign onto it with pressure, it's possible.

It's just not going to be happening overnight, but the pressure has to be kept on. Can't let this opportunity go to waste.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

Perhaps not, but there could be with a change in legislation.

As I said, don't bring government into this. Once you make this a political issue, one that can be used by the government of the day to score points, it will be all over.

[diggerling!]

As I said, don't bring government into this. Once you make this a political issue, one that can be used by the government of the day to score points, it will be all over.

Your suggestion then is that we leave the market to sort it out?

[Dull Tools]

As I said, don't bring government into this. Once you make this a political issue, one that can be used by the government of the day to score points, it will be all over.

There is no way to do this without the government really.

The only way is the Premier League having a rule that to enter the competition you need to have x% of fan votes on the board.

One other way to go is to make clubs listed entities. I saw a few people on twitter mentioning that it is mad that you have to get approval to change windows in a house but a billionaire can own a football club and do whatever he wants with it.

There could be a list of items that need fan approval before they happen. Such as selling the ground, moving to a ESL etc.

[Medellin]

Very much doubt this is gonna happen even with a national fans protest to do so.

We dont just need a Tony Barrett to feed news/feedback to whoever owns Lfc, we need a committee or something alike at Lfc whose voice will be heard.
The owners are a problem..they are a problem because there is zero dialogue with the fans and the club itself.
Making massive decisions without having a fucking clue of the ramifications of those decisions is where the problem lies.
We have to be heard..that quite simply has to the first objective here, then move on to whatever else we need to do.

[diggerling!]

Very much doubt this is gonna happen even with a national fans protest to do so.

We dont just need a Tony Barrett to feed news/feedback to whoever owns Lfc, we need a committee or something alike at Lfc whose voice will be heard.
The owners are a problem..they are a problem because there is zero dialogue with the fans and the club itself.
Making massive decisions without having a fucking clue of the ramifications of those decisions is where the problem lies.
We have to be heard..that quite simply has to the first objective here, then move on to whatever else we need to do.

We have a supporters trust called Spirit of Shankly. Join up, let them know your thoughts, help them get some proper representation.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

There is no way to do this without the government really.

The only way is the Premier League having a rule that to enter the competition you need to have x% of fan votes on the board.

One other way to go is to make clubs listed entities. I saw a few people on twitter mentioning that it is mad that you have to get approval to change windows in a house but a billionaire can own a football club and do whatever he wants with it.

There could be a list of items that need fan approval before they happen. Such as selling the ground, moving to a ESL etc.

I would not underestimate the power of the public discourse in this day and age. While not all of it is good, but there is something to be said about the power of the internet to bring about movements for social change and justice. This is one of them.

And to have fans across the board supporting this, it's a no brainer to pursue this on a broad spectrum. I think the different supporters groups need to meet and decide on a course of action, and have initiatives that are transparent that can be presented to the powers that be.

To rely on government legislation is, frankly, just another red herring. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson did not come out in support of the fans because he believed billionaire owners shouldn't be in power. Think about that for a second, and what sort of people you want to get in bed with to achieve your aims.

[kavah]

Law is very subjective. In the name of national interest, the UK govt can do a lot. What the 6 have done is not only fuck over football, but rob the people of the UK of one of their biggest assets.
I see no moral problem in enforcing 50+1. Legal objections can be worked around.

Yes, when needs must the governments can do a lot. They bought the Royal Bank of Scotland in 2009. Ronald Regan nationalized air traffic control and Obama made the U.S government the biggest car company in the world in 2008. It would be hugely popular if we got a 50 +1 bill or version of that in England. FSG can fuck right off with their 2 billion pre-Covid valuation of the club. They paid £300Mill and would be welcome to have that same amount refunded. Henry et al are pariah's, I can't see them being welcomed into our city ever again - the fucking blerts.

[CornerTakenQuickly]

https://reclaimourgame.com/

Steve Rotheram and Andy Burnham have launched this website with proposals for reform in football.

[diggerling!]

https://reclaimourgame.com/

Steve Rotheram and Andy Burnham have launched this website with proposals for reform in football.

Well in.

[Dull Tools]

https://reclaimourgame.com/

Steve Rotheram and Andy Burnham have launched this website with proposals for reform in football.

Signed up. Get sharing it everyone.

[kavah]

https://reclaimourgame.com/

Steve Rotheram and Andy Burnham have launched this website with proposals for reform in football.

Brilliant

[RainbowFlick]

At a bare minimum, I don't see how they can't essentially 'strip out' some key voting rights into a separate share class for fans. They can keep their dividends and commercial benefits if that's what they want.

This will need government intervention and I think this is probably a step too far for them and their mates.

We also need to not lose sight over Sky/BT's monopolies too.

[A-Bomb]

Signed and shared.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Lads, this is a brilliant thread.  Do not let the obstacles and objectionists deter you from exploring this idea.

There are several ways to think about this:

1. Implementing a German Model from scratch

2. Buying the club in the market place and instituting a form of the German Model (Scouser Model)

3. Find other options to impose supporter decision-making (Feasibility Analysis)


*** If people want to own their own club, there is always a way.   If even people get organized, focused upon the central issues and are ready to implement a plan when FSG decide to sell - it could work.     Let me say that again.  It can work.   But we need leaders who have LFC's best interest in mind along with the community who embodies the Shankly's message.

The fear of the unknown, or not getting preferred transfers or a large effort like this crumbling should not stop us from the dream to align the history of Liverpool FC with supporter-led decision making rights (whether than be voting, financial rights or preventing the corporate cannibalizaton of the sport we love).


Trend

[Trendisnotdestiny]

I would not underestimate the power of the public discourse in this day and age. While not all of it is good, but there is something to be said about the power of the internet to bring about movements for social change and justice. This is one of them.

And to have fans across the board supporting this, it's a no brainer to pursue this on a broad spectrum. I think the different supporters groups need to meet and decide on a course of action, and have initiatives that are transparent that can be presented to the powers that be.

To rely on government legislation is, frankly, just another red herring. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson did not come out in support of the fans because he believed billionaire owners shouldn't be in power. Think about that for a second, and what sort of people you want to get in bed with to achieve your aims.

We are just in the information gathering stage mate.   

When a club and its supporters decide they want a change --- a transition into something more representative that does not exist much in the British game, it will take some time.

But like so many have said here ---- it is a worthwhile idea, in need of some leadership to explore.

[Richie69]

Yes but I’m fairly certain the Govt forcing owners who have paid hundreds of millions, if not billions, to give up controlling interest in their business would not get through the courts.

Unless I’m missing something here?

In the UK Parliament is sovereign and can, theoretically, pass whatever rule it wants.   More so now there's no recourse to EU courts.

Its not like the US where the Supreme Court can strike down legislation.