Topic: The 90's - peak footy?

[butchersdog]

Firstly, hear me out folks!

I've been watching a few Euro 96 games on ITV4 during the lockdown. It's really made me notice that the style of play is quite 'different' to what we're used to seeing in the top flight/on the International stage now, and how the game has changed, even within my own living memory (mid 30's).

As we all know, the old games are less technical - if you compare the game between us and spurs this season to England v Holland last night, it's a lot less tiki taka, and fitness levels aren't the same. That said, I don't personally think it's much less entertaining for it. The games have been more physical, without being over the top, and there's seemingly less simulation and time wasting. It's been good watching people put a foot in without the game stopping. Something I used to enjoy at the start of Gerrard's career in derbies etc for example. The crowd were also loud as fuck (an old stereotype, I know this wasn't always the case).

It got me watching some other matches from the time, which then, long story short, got me wondering whether the 90's might have been 'peak footy' for match going fans - again, hear me out, I'm talking about the whole thing, not just on the pitch, and definitely not related to LFC's performances at the time.

So, in terms of the 90's being a step towards the high levels of skill and fitness we have in the game now, but with some of the more robust elements of the game from the past, combined with improvement in pitch standards and grounds, but before the arrival of the out of town/bowl style stadiums, and still having relative accessibility and affordability in top level football at the time. The idea of going to the match because you wanted to watch the match, rather than being 'seen' at it, no smart phones. Football as a sport, not a product, etc.

I imagine some might shoot me down here, which is fine. It might just be corona nostalgia on my part. I thought it might be interesting to get peoples thoughts who are old enough to remember going to the match at the time?

[Kopstar]

I do agree with a lot of what you say, but I guess it comes down to your personal preference. Being born in the late 70's, my main consumption of football growing up, was from the 90's. I do hark back to it sometimes but I certainly do not miss the appalling diving and cheating which was especially bad in European competition and World Cups. There wasn't a lot of TV coverage either until Sky came along. Saying that, for me the pinnacle was late 80's to early 90's.

[The North Bank]

Late 90s and early 2000s for me. Football was crossing over from a physical individual game played on bad pitches, to a more tactical fitness based team work approach. For a few years there was a perfect mix, world class players not being lost in team tactics, great pitches to play football, marketing hadn't gotten over the top yet, there weren't games every day, you could still have pitch battles if the teams were up for it, and in general you still had street footballers who had an edge in ability and character than the academy manufactured soft lads of today, and buying ever lasting success wasn't as common. No twitter and social media, just the perfect exposure, ticket prices hadn't gone mad yet, now its just exploitation on so many levels.

[SP]

Like music, football was always better when you were a kid. I suspect there will be a strong correlation between the age of the poster and their opinion.

[J_Kopite]

Late 90s and early 2000s for me. Football was crossing over from a physical individual game played on bad pitches, to a more tactical fitness based team work approach. For a few years there was a perfect mix, world class players not being lost in team tactics, great pitches to play football, marketing hadn't gotten over the top yet, there weren't games every day, you could still have pitch battles if the teams were up for it, and in general you still had street footballers who had an edge in ability and character than the academy manufactured soft lads of today, and buying ever lasting success wasn't as common. No twitter and social media, just the perfect exposure, ticket prices hadn't gone mad yet, now its just exploitation on so many levels.

Spot on, this.

[Sheer Magnetism]

90's was peak everything. A film industry where blockbusters were coming of age alongside an indie film space at its biggest ever, with actors and directors pursuing interesting new material; a music industry where hip hop was peaking, guitar bands were still interesting and dance music was moving ever outwards; video games that were made to be fun and that didn't take 20 minutes to turn on or require an hour of gathering items to enjoy; British sitcoms that were funny, and drama shows that were well written and not simply camp; internet that was straightforward and non-intrusive; fashion and make up that was flattering; long summers under a sun that felt warm and welcoming without being harsh.

In my late 30's you ask? How did you know?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

90's was peak everything. A film industry where blockbusters were coming of age alongside an indie film space at its biggest ever, with actors and directors pursuing interesting new material; a music industry where hip hop was peaking, guitar bands were still interesting and dance music was moving ever outwards; video games that were made to be fun and that didn't take 20 minutes to turn on or require an hour of gathering items to enjoy; British sitcoms that were funny, and drama shows that were well written and not simply camp; internet that was straightforward and non-intrusive; fashion and make up that was flattering; long summers under a sun that felt warm and welcoming without being harsh.

In my late 30's you ask? How did you know?

im in my mid 30s and I totally agree with this, culturally the 90s was great although it did benefit from us not having t(e attention span of an amoeba and for things like tv and film it helps when you don’t have an iPad distracting you and they don’t have a Netflix to compete with which has made it harder for things like tv series to compete with when Netflix gives chance to watch it all in one day

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Late 90s and early 2000s for me. Football was crossing over from a physical individual game played on bad pitches, to a more tactical fitness based team work approach. For a few years there was a perfect mix, world class players not being lost in team tactics, great pitches to play football, marketing hadn't gotten over the top yet, there weren't games every day, you could still have pitch battles if the teams were up for it, and in general you still had street footballers who had an edge in ability and character than the academy manufactured soft lads of today, and buying ever lasting success wasn't as common. No twitter and social media, just the perfect exposure, ticket prices hadn't gone mad yet, now its just exploitation on so many levels.

Anything to do with Arsenal being a very good side during this time period?!

I get the argument and agree on a lot of points. But for me, the much improved tactical element of the game nowadays outweighs a lot of it, as opposed to 95% of teams playing 4-4-2 back in the 90s. And we have the likes of Wenger to thank for that.

[rob1966]

Late 90s and early 2000s for me. Football was crossing over from a physical individual game played on bad pitches, to a more tactical fitness based team work approach. For a few years there was a perfect mix, world class players not being lost in team tactics, great pitches to play football, marketing hadn't gotten over the top yet, there weren't games every day, you could still have pitch battles if the teams were up for it, and in general you still had street footballers who had an edge in ability and character than the academy manufactured soft lads of today, and buying ever lasting success wasn't as common. No twitter and social media, just the perfect exposure, ticket prices hadn't gone mad yet, now its just exploitation on so many levels.

Seen a few of your games v the mancs recently, like fucking pitched battles

[The North Bank]

Seen a few of your games v the mancs recently, like fucking pitched battles

If it was played now wed win a lot more as United simply turned into hatchet men to bridge the gulf in class, but I wouldn't have it any other way, incredible years.

[Andar]

Late 90s and early 2000s for me. Football was crossing over from a physical individual game played on bad pitches, to a more tactical fitness based team work approach. For a few years there was a perfect mix, world class players not being lost in team tactics, great pitches to play football, marketing hadn't gotten over the top yet, there weren't games every day, you could still have pitch battles if the teams were up for it, and in general you still had street footballers who had an edge in ability and character than the academy manufactured soft lads of today, and buying ever lasting success wasn't as common. No twitter and social media, just the perfect exposure, ticket prices hadn't gone mad yet, now its just exploitation on so many levels.

Wonder why this is

Peak footy for me is between 2018-20. Great matches, great drama and all round great fun.

[Andar]

Like music, football was always better when you were a kid. I suspect there will be a strong correlation between the age of the poster and their opinion.

Think that's very true.

[AndyMuller]

Not just footy but life itself gets worse as you get older.

[The North Bank]

Anything to do with Arsenal being a very good side during this time period?!

I get the argument and agree on a lot of points. But for me, the much improved tactical element of the game nowadays outweighs a lot of it, as opposed to 95% of teams playing 4-4-2 back in the 90s. And we have the likes of Wenger to thank for that.

Im sure Arsenal had something to do with it. Wenger was better when he told players to go out and express themselves than when he tried to replicate barca in the premier league, that was partly the end of him.
So many managers either went the Guardiola way or the Mourinho /Benitez way and it was like watching worse copy cats everywhere.
More admiration for Klopp going his own way and not copying anyone, hes a throwback to top level football 20 years ago, freedom of play and no need to shut games down or just keep possession for 90 mins, and because its so rare now no one can deal with it.

[Kopstar]

I wish that medicine was more advanced than it was back then as too many great players suffered injuries that greatly affected them, whereas today they may have suffered far less. I'm thinking Ronaldo, Futre, Fowler, Owen, Redknapp, Barnes, Gascoigne, Shearer, etc.
It's good that we see far less of the deliberate career ending tackles that the likes of Lucas Neill and John Fashanu used to put in.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Not just footy but life itself gets worse as you get older.

That's the spirit!

[Macphisto80]

I agree. Has fuck all to do with age as some are alluding to. The game has changed, and the corporative side of it has turned into a capitalist juggernaut to the point where it's making aspects of the sport unbearable and almost disgusting. Yes, it's true money always had a say in the game, but not how it is now. Not even anywhere near close. Posers like Pogba in the 90's? He'd have been found out in his first few games and fucked right off, especially when you consider the caliber and types of players there were around, and in almost every team, not just the big clubs. True there were less foreign or "exotic" types of flare players in the league at the time, but the ones that were there were absolute stand out players, and how much would a Bergkamp, Viera, Kanchelskis or a Ginola cost in today's market be? I'm not sure if it's just me, but I think the game was more 'pure' or distilled to particular positions too. Midfielders were midfielders (Gerrard, Keane, Viera, Zidane, Seedorf etc etc) with clear and defined pure out and out strikers. I think the only positions in the game that's remained and survived various transitions are the center and full back positions.

[AndyMuller]

I agree. Has fuck all to do with age as some are alluding to. The game has changed, and the corporative side of it has turned into a capitalist juggernaut to the point where it's making aspects of the sport unbearable and almost disgusting. Yes, it's true money always had a say in the game, but not how it is now. Not even anywhere near close. Posers like Pogba in the 90's? He'd have been found out in his first few games and fucked right off, especially when you consider the caliber and types of players there were around, and in almost every team, not just the big clubs. True there were less foreign or "exotic" types of flare players in the league at the time, but the ones that were there were absolute stand out players, and how much would a Bergkamp, Viera, Kanchelskis or a Ginola cost in today's market be? I'm not sure if it's just me, but I think the game was more 'pure' or distilled to particular positions too. Midfielders were midfielders (Gerrard, Keane, Viera, Zidane, Seedorf etc etc) with clear and defined pure out and out strikers. I think the only positions in the game that's remained and survived various transitions are the center and full back positions.

I agree with this and I also think the special players had a certain 'magic' about them when you watched them. The game is too stat based these days with people judging players because their Xg is 100 times better than another players or whatever.

[Horizon]

Agree with everything said but UTD won everything and we just competed for tin pot cups so I really hate that era! 

[Jookie]

II grew up in the 90's  and was a match going regular throughout. Loved going the game then and there was definitely less of a corporate element to the game. Tactically the football was also less stringent than what we now. I also think the 90's was when English football changed dramatically. The early to mid 90's is very different to the late 90's. In terms of the influx of genuine high quality foreign players across the league the 90's was that transition period. It meant style of play, professionalism and the overall quality differed quite considerably between the early 90's and late 90's in English football.

Despite loving 90's football I would probably say the period between 1990 and about 1997 is probably the weakest I can remember in terms of the quality of the league. It didn't feel like it at the time but looking back it probably was. I think the European ban had affected clubs significantly as we came into the 90's era and that is reflected in the European performance of clubs upon their return (the foreigner rule was also a factor).. Beyond United winning the Cup Winners Cup, English clubs performed really poorly in European competition for most of the 90's. I can't remember the stat exactly but I think it was only a single English club (Forest) who made the UEFA Cup QFs or beyond between 1991 and 1997.

The English top division was really strong in the late 70's and 80's. English football dominated European club football competition. It coincided with England having a very good core of players in the 1980's plus Scotland having a great team and Wales having World stars like Southall, Rush and Hughes. In the main that core of players played mainly in the English top division. In the early 90's I think those national sides were all weaker. Also Rangers were stronger and able to retain better Scottish players and attract some of the top English players. You probably see a revitalisation of the English national side in the mid 90's with the emergence of the likes of Shearer, Campbell, McManaman, Fowler, Southage, Neville. This was followed a year or 2 later by Ferdinand, Owen, Scholes, Beckham.

Between 1996 and 2000 I think we saw the league get stronger. Better domestic players plus the influx of high quality foreign players who hadn't got past their peak yet (Vieira, Petit, Anelka, Bergkamp, Ravanelli, Juninho, LeBouf, Zola, Overmars, Hasselbaink, Petrescu, Hadji, Billic) really strengthened the league. The influence of Wenger can't be underestimated here either. He raised the bar in terms of tactics and professionalism. His success also paved the way for other foreign managers in early 2000's and what amounted to a significant tactical revolution driven by the likes of Houllier, Ranieri, Mourinho and Benitez.

Like I said I loved 90's football but personally I think it's the decade (i can remember) where the quality differed significantly throughout. That period between 92 and96 the league was crap. That's not because just Liverpool were poor. I think the league was generally quite poor. Look at the quality of Blackburn's title winning squad and you'd be hard pushed to find more than a handful of players who had the quality to play regularly in a Top 6 side now.

[The North Bank]

I agree with this and I also think the special players had a certain 'magic' about them when you watched them. The game is too stat based these days with people judging players because their Xg is 100 times better than another players or whatever.

Definitely this, stats have stopped players expressing themselves and developing their skills. 100 % sideways pass completion is a better sale when their agent is touting them around.

[jacobs chains]

Like music, football was always better when you were a kid. I suspect there will be a strong correlation between the age of the poster and their opinion.

This in absolute spades.

Football peaked in the 90s. You didn't see how we and others played the game in the 70s or 80s. Not to mention international sides like Brazil and Holland.
Cinema peaked in the 90s. You must be unaware of the 70s or 30s. Christ even the 40s, 50s, and 80s would slap the 90s around.
Music peaked in the 90s. Yeah you missed the 80s and the rise of black street music, indie bands and the explosion of white boy dance music. 70s punk, electro and new wave. 60s Brit pop, alternative/counter culture and proper soul. 50s rock and roll.

It comes down to what you knew in your formative years or what you became interested in and studied as you grew older.

[Iska]

I think it was only a single English club (Forest) who made the UEFA Cup QFs or beyond between 1991 and 1997

How’d they manage that? They were dreadful in the 90s bar one banner year under Frank Clark.

PS I hadn’t known that their European Cup run was finally ended by CSKA Sofia in 1980-81, who were also the only non-English team to beat us during our peak. They must have been decent.

[J_Kopite]

Tactics and stats getting more advanced and becoming more of a part of football culture since the mid 2000's has made the game much less enjoyable.

[J_Kopite]

It comes down to what you knew in your formative years or what you became interested in and studied as you grew older.

This argument keeps coming up in here but its really nothing to do with this, we didn't have petro clubs in our game run by foreign nation states looking for a bit of PR for a start.

[Macphisto80]

This in absolute spades.

Football peaked in the 90s. You didn't see how we and others played the game in the 70s or 80s. Not to mention international sides like Brazil and Holland.
Cinema peaked in the 90s. You must be unaware of the 70s or 30s. Christ even the 40s, 50s, and 80s would slap the 90s around.
Music peaked in the 90s. Yeah you missed the 80s and the rise of black street music, indie bands and the explosion of white boy dance music. 70s punk, electro and new wave. 60s Brit pop, alternative/counter culture and proper soul. 50s rock and roll.

It comes down to what you knew in your formative years or what you became interested in and studied as you grew older.

Peaked. As in took a steady decline since. He wasn't saying that everything was at the pinnacle or the best ever. Music, films, football. All fantastic up until a point where it really all just stopped being about the artistry and more to do with the corporate.

[jacobs chains]

This argument keeps coming up in here but its really nothing to do with this, we didn't have petro clubs in our game run by foreign nation states looking for a bit of PR for a start.

No, we had clubs bankrolled by their owners to an extent where other teams had to be better and smarter. There has always been clubs with an unfair financial advantage such as the Merseyside Millionaires just in the past we knew less of it and the people involved were less odious (except for in Franco's Spain or most of the state sponsored cubs behind the iron curtain).

Anyway the original point was that football peaked in the 90s not that it's got worse in the 2000s.

[Fromola]

90s was a crap time to be a Liverpool fan but was a great era for football.

Serie A was magic and on channel 4 every week at a time when live football was still a novelty (and not that many had Sky and if they did there wasn't that many live games). The European Cup was exciting as it was wide open (Red Star Belgrade, Marseille, Dortmund and Ajax won it in the 90s and even Barca as a novelty for the first time).

The quality of the UEFA Cup was so much higher than now with really strong teams (as was still the case with us in 2001 and the teams we beat) and no crappy group stage. The best players were more spread out over a lot more clubs.

No social media.

[whiteboots]

70’s for me. The Redmen were in full cry at home and abroad. You could get a ticket for any game – by turning up, and Holland laid the foundations of the modern game with Total Football.

[Reeves]

Like music, football was always better when you were a kid. I suspect there will be a strong correlation between the age of the poster and their opinion.

The circle of life. You're absolutely correct. Rock n Roll was always best when you were 18

[Ziltoid]

That's the spirit!

He's fucking spot on though 👍

[CHOPPER]

He's fucking spot on though 👍

They're on about the 1990's, not the 1890's, you pissy old bomby mattress.

[Elzar]

The one thing I can comment on about 90s football is that is must have been bliss without social media. My adult life has basically been from the start if social media and the build up to what ever the fuck it is now.

Lots of "FabulousFirmino" and "MajesticMartial" faceless weirdos commenting on everything just pulls the joy from reading peoples opinions and pieces. Every reply is a gif, no actual discussion takes place, just "wrong, take an L" and all that shite.

 I would love to have been in my early 20s when none of that was around. I can't say I have watched much 90s football, but early 00's clips I do enjoy. I feel like he 90s was just before the internet ran away with everyone's lives and caused aoutbreak of brainless opinion and less people taking things in with their own eyes and enjoying football, and just life in general.

[rob1966]

The one thing I can comment on about 90s football is that is must have been bliss without social media. My adult life has basically been from the start if social media and the build up to what ever the fuck it is now.

Lots of "FabulousFirmino" and "MajesticMartial" faceless weirdos commenting on everything just pulls the joy from reading peoples opinions and pieces. Every reply is a gif, no actual discussion takes place, just "wrong, take an L" and all that shite.

 I would love to have been in my early 20s when none of that was around. I can't say I have watched much 90s football, but early 00's clips I do enjoy. I feel like he 90s was just before the internet ran away with everyone's lives and caused aoutbreak of brainless opinion and less people taking things in with their own eyes and enjoying football, and just life in general.

Arsenal players loved it, all out getting pissed in peace. Lee Hendrie was saying something the other day on that Harrys Heroes programme about being in a restaurant and getting stitched up by a Scum journo. Oh and look at the state of those players these days, out of shape, fat as fuck and knackered before their time.

I'm not sure the 90's was the peak, but it was deffo the death of the old ways and while a lot of what has come since I hate, I also look back on the 90's, especially our club, with utter distaste. Seeing the likes of that fat fuck Ruddock taking the piss out of the club and the fans, the absolute lack of professionalism that was rampant across the board, the no fucks given attitudes. Everything revolved around getting fucking leathered and while it might have been a blast for the English lads, while they won the square root of fuck all, its wasn't fun when you were suddenly paying a lot of money to watch the c*nts. Wenger dragged footy kicking and screaming into the 20th Century and while I hate the whole playacting, media driven side of it, the more professional approach makes me happy.

[Risto]

As good as it may have been, I would like to think the best is yet to come. 2025 should be better and the peak should be roughly around 2055-85 if my calculations are to be correct.

However it is all subjective and many people who have already passed on thought the 1905-06 season was the best season ever in football.

[fowlermagic]

The 90s in terms of footie for a Liverpool fan surely was one of the worse times as Utd took our mantle, became the darlings of Sky and football records only started once the Sky cameras turned on. We slowly became a shell of ourselves, far removed from the great sides of the 70s and 80s so while there was some great teams around to enjoy, to see Utd having their best years in that decade surely pains us a little. The best domestic team of the decade, the best manager, the best player? If Utd, Fergie & Co come forefront in that discussion then why have any great feelings about the 90s?

For me its the 80s as we were tops, later that decade the best international club side Milan was probably one of the best ever. Brazil in 82 was magical and Maradona won a world cup by himself. There was a place for hardmen, there was still magicians around, Kenny started the decade as a King, Rush was banging them in and we saw the finest footballing side ever this club had with Barnes, Beardsley & Co, a side that would have matched the Milan side. We won the only Double this club has ever won and while it also broke our hearts the tragedy made this club & city one as we supported everyone in red and blue even when we took over Wembley in 89.

[SP]

The one thing I can comment on about 90s football is that is must have been bliss without social media. My adult life has basically been from the start if social media and the build up to what ever the fuck it is now.

There were Manc trolls on Usenet in the 90s.

[Red-Soldier]

There were Manc trolls on Usenet in the 90s.

The heady days of Usenet newsgroups and endless free dial-up.

[SP]

The heady days of Usenet newsgroups and endless free dial-up.

JANET was lovely. We got 1Mb/s connections when that was impressive.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I've watched a few of the Euro 96 re-runs, and the football was dreadful by and large. This is definitely nostalgia talking!