Author Topic: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)  (Read 305071 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4640 on: August 25, 2016, 11:09:01 am »
Is that your considered opinion pal? Then you jog on with your vision of a future for our party and our people that will not change the political landscape one iota and I'll pursue mine. 

Corbyn, Milne, McDonnell, Abbott and Momentum are changing the political landscape. They're ensuring we have a Tory hegemony for the foreseeable future.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4641 on: August 25, 2016, 11:15:50 am »
To be fair its easy for anyone to get enthused by Corbyn's policy platform, given that so far we've heard all about the nice general stuff about hat we would like to spend lots of money on without hearing on the rather less pleasant stuff about how we would raise that money.

A lot of us like the idea of free money, but in reality you usually end up paying on one way or another.

Until we hear how the additional spending will be funded its all basically meaningless (and no things like increasing the 45% tax rate won't raise significant money).

Equally there's not much point in talking about some sort of class driven approach when voters don't think like that themselves anymore, yes Labour does better with poorer voters, but still gets less than 50% of D's and E's, in fact it gets slightly less of those voters than the Tories + UKIP together (plus they turnout to vote a lot less). A lot of Labour's support these days also comes from the socially liberal part of the traditional middle classes.

Anyone who thinks that there is a Labour path to victory that simply consists of targetting the working class vote and nothing else should head out to places like Essex and see how receptive the working classes there are to Corbyn.

I don't doubt that some people genuinely think this approach can work, but it didn't in 1983 and the environment is a lot less favourable for it now than it was then.

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4642 on: August 25, 2016, 11:21:52 am »
Corbyn, Milne, McDonnell, Abbott and Momentum are changing the political landscape. They're ensuring we have a Tory hegemony for the foreseeable future.
Do you ever wonder why Corbyn etc have gained traction since Miliband stood down?

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4643 on: August 25, 2016, 11:28:01 am »
Corbyn, Milne, McDonnell, Abbott and Momentum are changing the political landscape. They're ensuring we have a Tory hegemony for the foreseeable future.

Alan while the people are unable - or choose not - to listen and organise to effect the political and economic change we so desperately need as a class and as a nation, you could be proven right. I said "could" not would.

To each their own way.  For me I've had a belly-full of a procession of pseudo Labour "leaders" throughout my lifetime that have not enthused our people nor inspired them nor delivered a fundamental socio-economic sea-change to anything in this land - Clement Atlee and Nye Bevan aside.

If the British people continue to be inspired by or enthused by what the Tories have to deliver come 2020 then we will indeed succeed in demonstrating to the world what very stupid and blindly gullible gluttons-for-punishment we are.

There's a rare quote by Nye Bevan that goes something like "Either the people will use democracy to destroy their punitive rulers or their rulers in fear of the will of the people will destroy democracy." Food for thought.

In the absence of any other credible redemptive "face at the top" I'll go with my gut instinct here. After all at 70 what have I really got to lose?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 11:45:15 am by JohnnoWhite »
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4644 on: August 25, 2016, 11:34:19 am »
To be fair its easy for anyone to get enthused by Corbyn's policy platform, given that so far we've heard all about the nice general stuff about hat we would like to spend lots of money on without hearing on the rather less pleasant stuff about how we would raise that money.

A lot of us like the idea of free money, but in reality you usually end up paying on one way or another.

Until we hear how the additional spending will be funded its all basically meaningless (and no things like increasing the 45% tax rate won't raise significant money).

Equally there's not much point in talking about some sort of class driven approach when voters don't think like that themselves anymore, yes Labour does better with poorer voters, but still gets less than 50% of D's and E's, in fact it gets slightly less of those voters than the Tories + UKIP together (plus they turnout to vote a lot less). A lot of Labour's support these days also comes from the socially liberal part of the traditional middle classes.

Anyone who thinks that there is a Labour path to victory that simply consists of targetting the working class vote and nothing else should head out to places like Essex and see how receptive the working classes there are to Corbyn.

I don't doubt that some people genuinely think this approach can work, but it didn't in 1983 and the environment is a lot less favourable for it now than it was then.
This is typical of Corbyn, he can spend all day saying what he want's or what should happen but no time on the realty of implementing those policys.
He is obviously ignoring the downside of Triggering article 50, something he has no problem in doing even if the evidence shows it will be a disaster for the economy.
That will make all his policys impossible to implement overnight.
It's all about what he wants to happen and nothing about solving a problem which stands in the way of it happening.
He was a last resort candidate to be leader and it's easy to see why.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4645 on: August 25, 2016, 11:35:48 am »
Do you ever wonder why Corbyn etc have gained traction since Miliband stood down?

For me a combination of things.

I think many felt a lack of clarity as to what Labour stood for anymore after the Global Financial Crash and the response to it.

I don't think the other candidates did a good job of setting out a vision in that campaign, although I voted Cooper as I thought she was clearly the most competent by a considerable margin.

I also think there have been changes to the makeup of the membership and supporters over time, I don't just mean the likes of the SWP supporters joining, but also former Greens and LibDems, who are generally happier going for the approach of being idealistic protesters as opposed to the hard grid of compromising in an effort to win meaningful power.

I think some existing Labour supporters just gave up as well, they thought we couldn't ever win an election anyway so we may as well just get someone in who says the things we want to hear, and sod worrying about being electable, that was certainly a common theme on here during the leadership campaign.

We'd possibly have seen some sign of the start of these moves in 2010, if the Left had been able to put up a better candidate than the widely loathed Diane Abbott.

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4646 on: August 25, 2016, 11:37:18 am »
Nigel Farrage was on the telly just now. He said,

"Anything is possible if enough decent people are prepared to stand up against the establishment."

I agree with him. There had to be a first time!

I've been away from this thread for 24 hours and come back to find 5 pages filled mostly with anti-Corbyn rant. I find this very sad, given that Jeremy is a decent person and he clearly is not only prepared to stand up against the establishment but is willing to lead the charge. Owen Smith has barely had a look-in. Does anyone think that Mr Smith has as much clarity of vision? Or is his ambition limited to getting into power?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4647 on: August 25, 2016, 11:42:07 am »
Do you ever wonder why Corbyn etc have gained traction since Miliband stood down?

I understand why Corbyn's gained traction. It's a symptom of many changes in society, here and around the world. It's also reflected in the Brexit vote and the rise of Trump in America. Aaron Banks understands it as well and in way so did Gove and Johnson. It's about the dismissal of facts and evidence and voting on emotion.

A lot of people feel disenfranchised and left out, and a lot of politically active people have used Corbyn as a focus for their own concerns, despite the fact that he evidently is far more concerned with his foreign policy bugbears than the British people.

Do you also wonder why there are now a lot of people in this thread and elsewhere who supported Corbyn at the start but now feel betrayed and angry?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4648 on: August 25, 2016, 11:42:51 am »
I've been away from this thread for 24 hours and come back to find 5 pages filled mostly with anti-Corbyn rant...

I think you'll find Johno is pro-Corbyn...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 11:44:24 am by Alan_X »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4649 on: August 25, 2016, 11:44:16 am »

Nigel Farrage was on the telly just now. He said,

"Anything is possible if enough decent people are prepared to stand up against the establishment."

I agree with him. There had to be a first time!

I've been away from this thread for 24 hours and come back to find 5 pages filled mostly with anti-Corbyn rant. I find this very sad, given that Jeremy is a decent person and he clearly is not only prepared to stand up against the establishment but is willing to lead the charge. Owen Smith has barely had a look-in. Does anyone think that Mr Smith has as much clarity of vision? Or is his ambition limited to getting into power?

Are we really reduced now to falling back on the anti-establishment line so beloved of Brexiteers, Trump and Frottage, is that where we are as a party now?

Don't have any facts or experts to back up your case? Don't worry that's a good thing they're all part of some establishment conspiracy.

It was fucking dangerous nonsense during Brexit, so don't expect me to rally behind that particular line of attack.

Of course to be fair Corbyn did bring some well respected Economists on board to look at policy, but they all pissed off when they saw how utterly disinterested/incompetent he was.

Offline Dowling10

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4650 on: August 25, 2016, 11:51:40 am »
Nigel Farrage was on the telly just now. He said,

"Anything is possible if enough decent people are prepared to stand up against the establishment."

I agree with him. There had to be a first time!

I've been away from this thread for 24 hours and come back to find 5 pages filled mostly with anti-Corbyn rant. I find this very sad, given that Jeremy is a decent person and he clearly is not only prepared to stand up against the establishment but is willing to lead the charge. Owen Smith has barely had a look-in. Does anyone think that Mr Smith has as much clarity of vision? Or is his ambition limited to getting into power?

The thing is, many people in here don't think he's a decent man. I'm unsure how I stand with regards to him being decent. He comes across a decent fella, usually polite in the way he speaks to people and I admire that about him, plus I admire he isn't a 'fake' socialist, he actually wanted to send his sons to comprehensive school, doesn't abuse the expenses. But his past history of supporting dangerous organisations and some of the things he's said in the past - it is a reasonable debate to discuss how 'decent' he is.

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4651 on: August 25, 2016, 12:16:24 pm »
The thing is, many people in here don't think he's a decent man. I'm unsure how I stand with regards to him being decent. He comes across a decent fella, usually polite in the way he speaks to people and I admire that about him, plus I admire he isn't a 'fake' socialist, he actually wanted to send his sons to comprehensive school, doesn't abuse the expenses. But his past history of supporting dangerous organisations and some of the things he's said in the past - it is a reasonable debate to discuss how 'decent' he is.

This is a very good point.  I don't think he's very decent judging by this.

If / when he wins the leadership contest, this debate will be had very much in the public eye, things like'Terrorist sympathiser' will be banded about freely I'm sure.

Not only is he incompetent, his morals/values are extremely questionable too.

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4652 on: August 25, 2016, 12:21:10 pm »
Not only is he incompetent, [bhis morals/values are extremely questionable too.[/b]
and the Tories etc will find it so so easy to rip the man for his IRA/Hamas/hezbollah connections, and him taking money from the Iranian state tv, sure there are many more they're holding back on as well

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4653 on: August 25, 2016, 12:28:32 pm »
and the Tories etc will find it so so easy to rip the man for his IRA/Hamas/hezbollah connections, and him taking money from the Iranian state tv, sure there are many more they're holding back on as well

He's a had totally free ride where the media has been concerned so far, simply because he's so imcompetent. They are just letting him get on with destroying the party on his own.

If he's leader going into the next GE, they'll make mincemeat out of him!

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4654 on: August 25, 2016, 12:30:19 pm »
Do you also wonder why there are now a lot of people in this thread and elsewhere who supported Corbyn at the start but now feel betrayed and angry?

There's two in our house for starters.

The EU Ref killed the spell for me. It proved to me he couldn't put his personal beliefs aside for the good of the country and you can't lead a large party with that mindset.

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4655 on: August 25, 2016, 12:31:37 pm »
If he's leader going into the next GE, they'll make mincemeat out of him!
yup, won't need a bacon sandwich to make him look like a tit, him and his clan of dickheads are doing that job for him

Offline Dowling10

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4656 on: August 25, 2016, 12:32:14 pm »
would argue that people who drop out of uni and don't have a legit reason to should have to pay a much higher cost than people who graduate, also the type of degree (media studies should cost significantly more than say medicine)

Seriously? I take it you mean that someone who has studied medicine is more likely to contribute more in tax than someone who studied media studies? Or the industry is essential to the country?

It's too difficult to charge certain amounts for one course and not the other. Lots of variables involved including equipment etc.

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4657 on: August 25, 2016, 12:43:11 pm »
Interesting take on the 'lunatic' comments by Smith:

The “lunatic” incident showed us the real Owen Smith: and it ain't pretty
Forget the slur - what really matters is what it says about his empty promises, says David Wearing.
BY
DAVID WEARING

Owen Smith has embarrassed himself again. Having previously called for Labour to “smash” Theresa May “back on her heels”, advocated negotiations with ISIS, and described himself as “normal” with “a wife and three children” while competing with a gay woman to stand for the Labour leadership, you might expect him to have learnt the value of expressing himself more carefully. But no. Not a bit of it.

At a rally on Tuesday evening, Smith described Jeremy Corbyn as a “lunatic” with no “coherent narrative about what’s wrong with Britain”. It’s an interesting choice of words from someone who needs to win over tens of thousands of Corbyn’s supporters if he is to avoid a crushing defeat in this summer’s Labour leadership election. Indeed, we may look back on this as the final nail in the coffin of Smith’s campaign.

Let’s be honest. Most of us at some stage have used casual language like this (“lunatic”, “insane”), to describe those whose rationality we don’t share or understand. I’ll admit to having done so myself. But it is wrong. It perpetuates a stigma around mental illness and damages peoples’ chances of getting the care and support they need from society. We should all cut it out, especially those of us who aspire to high public office.

Beyond this, however, Smith has driven a coach and horses through the central premise of his own campaign. Throughout the summer he has presented himself as substantively agreeing with Corbyn on almost all domestic and economic issues, and only seeking to pursue that agenda more effectively and professionally. He has set out a range of policies - including a £200bn “British New Deal”, workplace rights and more redistributive taxation - that constitute an overt appeal to the social democratic, progressive values of the hundreds of thousands who joined the party to support Corbyn and secure a clean break with the neoliberalism of New Labour.

But it is simply not credible to simultaneously say “I agree with Jeremy” and that Jeremy is a “lunatic”. No one uses the word "lunatic" to describe someone whose politics they basically share. No one says “your diagnosis of the country’s ills is incoherent, and that’s the substantive agenda I want to take forward”.
Smith’s remarks indicate that, deep down, he shares the incredulity expressed by so many of his colleagues that anyone would want to abandon the Thatcher-Blair-Cameron “centre ground” of deregulation, privatisation, corporate-empowerment and widening inequality. After all, Corbyn’s narrative only appears incoherent to those who regard the post-1979 status quo as self-evidently the best of all possible worlds - give or take a few policy tweaks - rather than the very essence of “what’s wrong with Britain”.

This incident will confirm the suspicion of many Labour members that, if he did win the leadership, Smith would dilute or ditch most of the policies he has used to try and win their votes. Those fears are well founded. Take as one illustrative example the issue of immigration, where Smith has shown one face to the party while suggesting that he would show quite another to the country, as party leader.

At leadership hustings, Smith presents an enlightened, pro-immigration, anti-xenophobic stance, but in a Newsnight interview last month we saw something rather different.  When asked if there were “too many immigrants” in the UK, he replied that “it depends where you are”, giving official comfort to the post-Brexit “pack your bags” brigade. He asserted that EU migration “definitely caused downward pressure on wages” despite academic studies having repeatedly shown that this is false, and that EU migration is of clear overall benefit to the economy.

Then, calling for an “honest” discussion on immigration, Smith noted that his wife is a school teacher and that schools in their local area are under pressure from “significant numbers into South Wales of people fleeing the Middle East”. In fact, a grand total of 78 people have been resettled in the whole of Wales under the Syrian Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme. In the local authority encompassing Smith’s constituency of Pontypridd, the total number is zero.

This suggests, not someone who shares members’ values, but one who probably regards the leader’s pro-immigration stance as “lunatic”, and would prefer a return to the days when Labour erected the notorious Yarl’s Wood detention camp, rejected the vast majority of asylum applications from Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, and when Tom Watson put out an election leaflet reading “Labour is on your side, the Lib Dems are on the side of failed asylum seekers”.

Smith’s problem is that his mask keeps slipping. And every time it does, the choice before Labour members comes into sharper focus. On the one hand, they have a man who lacks many of the managerial and communication skills for party leadership, but who shares their values and who they can trust to fight for their agenda until a credible successor can be found. Against him stands a man they may not be able to trust, who may not share their values, and whose claims of professional competence grow more threadbare by the day. It’s a poor choice to be faced with, but Smith is at least making it easier for them.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/08/yesterday-showed-us-real-owen-smith-and-it-aint-pretty

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4658 on: August 25, 2016, 12:44:56 pm »
Seriously? I take it you mean that someone who has studied medicine is more likely to contribute more in tax than someone who studied media studies? Or the industry is essential to the country?

It's too difficult to charge certain amounts for one course and not the other. Lots of variables involved including equipment etc.
deadly serious - medicine is far far more important to society than the likes of media studies/film studies etc

Offline MichaelA

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4659 on: August 25, 2016, 12:45:22 pm »
Thought that Scousers traditionally knew the score between "us and them " as the working class in Manchester knew the score but evidently I was mistaken.

Drop this line of argument please, it's totally irrelevant, as is any comparison with Hillsborough.

Most of the issue with Corbyn in this thread do not relate to his policies, they relate to his character. You claim he's "steadfast and consistent and truthful" when there is plenty of evidence - if you care to look - that contradicts that view. Too many Labour members/activists/ex-members are too easily prepared to give up the wider electability of the party in favour of sticking to principles that are quite evidently not shared by the majority of the voting public.

Principles don't set minimum wages or invest in public services, or improve opportunities for working people, but pragmatic politics does, and that's what the pragmatism of New Labour delivered for working people after 22 years of Tory government. Maybe it will take the left of the party another twenty fucking years to realise that the British electorate isn't stupid, they're not spoon fed by the so called 'main stream media'. The vast bulk of the electorate is largely centrist, with some leanings to the left and some to the right. They will vote Labour if Labour look like they will deliver a better quality of life - and more money in their pay packet - than the Tories. It's a really fucking difficult stunt to pull. Maybe JC should try it...

...Except he can't. So his socialist principles can go fuck themselves - because they're meaningless until you have an opportunity in politics to use them. He will never use them, he'll never have the opportunity. Politics is the art of debate, negotiation and compromise, and above all it is the art of pragmatism. The country is crying out for a left of centre Labour Party with the right leader and the right manifesto to appeal to them. Corbyn has demonstrably failed to appeal to them, and the cause of that is not the media, not the PLP, not the Tories and not the people attacking him on this thread.

The cause of Jeremy Corbyn's failure is Jeremy Fucking Corbyn, who is absolutely not able or willing to be a politician. He can't negotiate, he wont' debate, he's congenitally incapable of compromise, he can't do pragmatic, and he doesn't appeal to a wider audience because he has had no interest or ability in engaging with that wider audience. He doesn't understand or represent that audience, he has no connection with them and they have no connection with him.

He's not a leader, he's a failure, and the greatest tragedy of his leadership is that he's given some people in and around the Labour Party a false hope that he's incapable of delivering.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 01:06:29 pm by MichaelA »

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4660 on: August 25, 2016, 01:08:06 pm »
Reading the last few pages of this thread reminds me just how deeply the far left despises the electorate. So much bitterness aimed at them for daring to think differently from the Pure, for considering voting Tory or even worse, electing the running dogs of Fifth Columnist Blair that betrayed that purity for the wickedness of winning power in a parliamentary democracy. Oh I'm sorry, it should be 'democracy' to highlight how the Establishment actually controls these idiot, gullible, unthinking and manipulated masses.

I suppose the only way these foolish people can be properly helped to understand where their true interest lies is by eschewing parliamentary 'democracy' and instigating armed revolution? If constitutional pursuit of legal, elective power cannot deliver a socialist agenda without compromise to the Establishment and its current capitalist hegemony due to the people being in thrall to newspapers etc, what exactly is being advocated here?
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4661 on: August 25, 2016, 01:17:00 pm »
Drop this line of argument please, it's totally irrelevant, as is any comparison with Hillsborough.

Most of the issue with Corbyn in this thread do not relate to his policies, they relate to his character. You claim he's "steadfast and consistent and truthful" when there is plenty of evidence - if you care to look - that contradicts that view. Too many Labour members/activists/ex-members are too easily prepared to give up the wider electability of the party in favour of sticking to principles that are quite evidently not shared by the majority of the voting public.

Principles don't set minimum wages or invest in public services, or improve opportunities for working people, but pragmatic politics does, and that's what the pragmatism of New Labour delivered for working people after 22 years of Tory government. Maybe it will take the left of the party another twenty fucking years to realise that the British electorate isn't stupid, they're not spoon fed by the so called 'main stream media'. The vast bulk of the electorate is largely centrist, with some leanings to the left and some to the right. They will vote Labour if Labour look like they will deliver a better quality of life - and more money in their pay packet - than the Tories. It's a really fucking difficult stunt to pull. Maybe JC should try it...

...Except he can't. So his socialist principles can go fuck themselves - because they're meaningless until you have an opportunity in politics to use them. He will never use them, he'll never have the opportunity. Politics is the art of debate, negotiation and compromise, and above all it is the art of pragmatism. The country is crying out for a left of centre Labour Party with the right leader and the right manifesto to appeal to them. Corbyn has demonstrably failed to appeal to them, and the cause of that is not the media, not the PLP, not the Tories and not the people attacking him on this thread.

The cause of Jeremy Corbyn's failure is Jeremy Fucking Corbyn, who is absolutely not able or willing to be a politician. He can't negotiate, he wont' debate, he's congenitally incapable of compromise, he can't do pragmatic, and he doesn't appeal to a wider audience because he has had no interest or ability in engaging with that wider audience. He doesn't understand or represent that audience, he has no connection with them and they have no connection with him.

He's not a leader, he's a failure, and the greatest tragedy of his leadership is that he's given some people in and around the Labour Party a false hope that he's incapable of delivering.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4662 on: August 25, 2016, 01:33:51 pm »
Amen! What a post!

And what is worse, we are identifying the way forward as being what ever is the opposite of Blair.
Good at PR?
Statesmanlike?
Smartly turned out?

None of these make you a good politician by themselves, but I can't help but think that Momentum etc are looking for someone who is the very antithesis of Blair.

I totally understand why they may have felt let down by him (even if I would agree on all points), but to work on the premis that if its not like him it's good is (in my view anyway), simply foolhardy.


Anyway.  I think all the left are barking up the wrong tree.

If we want to close the gap in equality in this country, we are looking in the wrong place.  Tuition fees, health, are all important, but the difference in life chances comes too late for all of that.

By the age of seven (on average) bright poor kids are being massively out performed at school by less bright middle class kids. And (on average), that's it, they never catch up...

This is what we need to address, people's life chance determined by the age of 7?  It's disgraceful.  No one is talk about how we address this, and eve fewer people seem to care.

For me, it's the golden 7 years where we can change people's lives, their aspirations and ideals (culturally, morally and financially).

If only someone had the guts to address it.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4663 on: August 25, 2016, 01:38:25 pm »
DAVID WEARING
At a rally on Tuesday evening, Smith described Jeremy Corbyn as a “lunatic” with no “coherent narrative about what’s wrong with Britain”.

Beware the quote that clearly starts or ends mid-sentence.

"What you won't get from me is some lunatic at the top of the Labour Party. You will have someone who is trying to forge a coherent narrative about what is wrong with Britain, why we are so unproductive as an economy, why we are not creating more decent jobs."

Quoted from the Morning Star.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4664 on: August 25, 2016, 01:40:35 pm »
If we want to close the gap in equality in this country, we are looking in the wrong place.  Tuition fees, health, are all important, but the difference in life chances comes too late for all of that.

By the age of seven (on average) bright poor kids are being massively out performed at school by less bright middle class kids. And (on average), that's it, they never catch up...

This is what we need to address, people's life chance determined by the age of 7?  It's disgraceful.  No one is talk about how we address this, and eve fewer people seem to care.

For me, it's the golden 7 years where we can change people's lives, their aspirations and ideals (culturally, morally and financially).

If only someone had the guts to address it.

Something like, say, "Sure Start".
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4665 on: August 25, 2016, 01:41:39 pm »
What left-leaning publications would those be? If you'd said those used-to-be-left-leaning Guardian and Mirror that would have been more accurate. They are all at it! They are closing ranks under the threat posed by a resurgent socialist Labour party and they put out there to a captive and generally gullible readership a pathetic semblance of a balanced and "informing" media. They are scared make no mistake. The Guardian moving ever closer to the mainstream line has become a purply pinko parody of its heritage. It's yet another media rag

 Honestly, mate. These arguments have all been made a million times before, mainly last summer. To be fair, it's different to the main Corbynite argument which can be summarised as "he should be leader because he's the leader" but it's still tosh.

 The evil establishment are not scared of Corbyn. Honestly, they're not. The Tories aren't scared of him, either. The right wing press, exploitative businesses and the Tories are all laughing their bollocks off at us right now, believe me.

 When you surround yourself with people who believe this shite, I guess it's easy to convince yourself it's true. But believe me, nobody is scared of Jeremy Corbyn coming into office and shaking the great British establishment up. They want him to stay forever because they know that the Tories are guaranteed to stay in power as long as he's leader.

 I love how often I was accused of being a Tory last summer when I said that Corbyn was an incompetent fraud, when all the while the *actual* Tories were supporting Corbyn as well. Maybe Corbynites and Tories have more in common than we thought?
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4666 on: August 25, 2016, 01:51:39 pm »
Drop this line of argument please, it's totally irrelevant, as is any comparison with Hillsborough.

Most of the issue with Corbyn in this thread do not relate to his policies, they relate to his character. You claim he's "steadfast and consistent and truthful" when there is plenty of evidence - if you care to look - that contradicts that view. Too many Labour members/activists/ex-members are too easily prepared to give up the wider electability of the party in favour of sticking to principles that are quite evidently not shared by the majority of the voting public.

Principles don't set minimum wages or invest in public services, or improve opportunities for working people, but pragmatic politics does, and that's what the pragmatism of New Labour delivered for working people after 22 years of Tory government. Maybe it will take the left of the party another twenty fucking years to realise that the British electorate isn't stupid, they're not spoon fed by the so called 'main stream media'. The vast bulk of the electorate is largely centrist, with some leanings to the left and some to the right. They will vote Labour if Labour look like they will deliver a better quality of life - and more money in their pay packet - than the Tories. It's a really fucking difficult stunt to pull. Maybe JC should try it...

...Except he can't. So his socialist principles can go fuck themselves - because they're meaningless until you have an opportunity in politics to use them. He will never use them, he'll never have the opportunity. Politics is the art of debate, negotiation and compromise, and above all it is the art of pragmatism. The country is crying out for a left of centre Labour Party with the right leader and the right manifesto to appeal to them. Corbyn has demonstrably failed to appeal to them, and the cause of that is not the media, not the PLP, not the Tories and not the people attacking him on this thread.

The cause of Jeremy Corbyn's failure is Jeremy Fucking Corbyn, who is absolutely not able or willing to be a politician. He can't negotiate, he wont' debate, he's congenitally incapable of compromise, he can't do pragmatic, and he doesn't appeal to a wider audience because he has had no interest or ability in engaging with that wider audience. He doesn't understand or represent that audience, he has no connection with them and they have no connection with him.

He's not a leader, he's a failure, and the greatest tragedy of his leadership is that he's given some people in and around the Labour Party a false hope that he's incapable of delivering.

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4667 on: August 25, 2016, 01:51:41 pm »
Reading the last few pages of this thread reminds me just how deeply the far left despises the electorate. So much bitterness aimed at them for daring to think differently from the Pure, for considering voting Tory or even worse, electing the running dogs of Fifth Columnist Blair that betrayed that purity for the wickedness of winning power in a parliamentary democracy. Oh I'm sorry, it should be 'democracy' to highlight how the Establishment actually controls these idiot, gullible, unthinking and manipulated masses.

I suppose the only way these foolish people can be properly helped to understand where their true interest lies is by eschewing parliamentary 'democracy' and instigating armed revolution? If constitutional pursuit of legal, elective power cannot deliver a socialist agenda without compromise to the Establishment and its current capitalist hegemony due to the people being in thrall to newspapers etc, what exactly is being advocated here?

The last few pages of this thread? What exactly is being advocated here? I can't believe someone's finally been instigating armed revolution on RAWK and I managed to miss it! ;D

On the last few pages of this thread, there has been virtually no pro-Corbyn posts (apart from a few from Johnno), let alone anything from the electorate-hating far left. Are you sure you haven't been browsing two forums at the same time and posted this reply on the wrong one?

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4668 on: August 25, 2016, 01:53:48 pm »
Labour was trying to address the issue of the under "7s" with Sure Start.  The Tories scrapped it.  Mind you, as it was a so called "new Labour" policy no doubt all the Corbyn followers will dismiss it out of hand as well.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4669 on: August 25, 2016, 01:54:49 pm »
Something like, say, "Sure Start".

Do you think Sure Start was successful and if so, to what degree?

My reading gives a mixed bag (methodological difficulties aside), emphasising a greater benefit if anything to the parents whilst not making as much headway as hoped, on preparing kids for school.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4670 on: August 25, 2016, 01:55:28 pm »
Something like, say, "Sure Start".

Far far far more than sure start...

Kids below five need a much better start in life. They deserve the same chances.

So, when I taught a kid who had parents who were heroin addicts it was deplorable.

They didn't interact with him.  He got no cultural stimulation and very little signs of love and affection.

He wasn't washed much, and no one took interest in what he ate or drank.

Now this is a very extreme example.  But this lack of stimulation and cultural awareness is something that stunts kids for the rest of their lives.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4671 on: August 25, 2016, 01:58:39 pm »
Do you think Sure Start was successful and if so, to what degree?

My reading gives a mixed bag (methodological difficulties aside), emphasising a greater benefit if anything to the parents whilst not making as much headway as hoped, on preparing kids for school.

I agree.  I'm not sure we should be quite so obsessed with results at school, but it didnt have a massively measurable impact.

But hell, it was a start.  Surely it was a huge step in the right direction?  We should be chucking resources at these kids like there's no tomorrow (not literally obviously!) as there is such an impact we could make.

Yet society, and the Labour Party, seems blind to it.
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W

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4672 on: August 25, 2016, 02:13:23 pm »
I agree.  I'm not sure we should be quite so obsessed with results at school, but it didnt have a massively measurable impact.

But hell, it was a start.  Surely it was a huge step in the right direction?  We should be chucking resources at these kids like there's no tomorrow (not literally obviously!) as there is such an impact we could make.

Yet society, and the Labour Party, seems blind to it.

If nothing else, it was at least a recognition that this was the demographic to aim funding at. Even if immediate results weren't as desired, the direction should be to continue in that mould, but refine the method as investigations and results come in as to how it was succeeding and not succeeding at the stated aims. Not to reject the idea altogether.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4673 on: August 25, 2016, 02:15:29 pm »
Do you think Sure Start was successful and if so, to what degree?

My reading gives a mixed bag (methodological difficulties aside), emphasising a greater benefit if anything to the parents whilst not making as much headway as hoped, on preparing kids for school.


I have no direct experience of it, not having any kids. But people I know from education and particularly child protection/social services, were very supportive of it and said it did a great deal of good - though of course could have had more resources, could have been better, and could have been more consistent (from area to area, or from one family's experience to another).
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4674 on: August 25, 2016, 02:17:14 pm »
I agree.  I'm not sure we should be quite so obsessed with results at school, but it didnt have a massively measurable impact.

But hell, it was a start.  Surely it was a huge step in the right direction?  We should be chucking resources at these kids like there's no tomorrow (not literally obviously!) as there is such an impact we could make.

Yet society, and the Labour Party, seems blind to it.

I don't think the Labour Party is blind to it. Yvette Cooper was very passionate about it (and about improving and extending it) during her leadership campaign last year. A Labour leadership bringing together the full talents of the party would surely resurrect it, or improve upon it as an idea.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4675 on: August 25, 2016, 02:48:52 pm »
Labour was trying to address the issue of the under "7s" with Sure Start.  The Tories scrapped it.  Mind you, as it was a so called "new Labour" policy no doubt all the Corbyn followers will dismiss it out of hand as well.

Now you're totally out of order with that generalist snipe mate.

An unequivocal commitment to a restoration of the provision of free places at every school for nippers is core to  current Labour policies for the earliest education and socialisation skills necessary for them to become the citizens of our future.
It's something that Jeremy Corbyn constantly speaks about. Perhaps if you listened sometime you won't labour under any more misapprehensions.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4676 on: August 25, 2016, 03:01:20 pm »
Now you're totally out of order with that generalist snipe mate.

An unequivocal commitment to a restoration of the provision of free places at every school for nippers is core to  current Labour policies for the earliest education and socialisation skills necessary for them to become the citizens of our future.
It's something that Jeremy Corbyn constantly speaks about. Perhaps if you listened sometime you won't labour under any more misapprehensions.

First of all I am not your "mate".

My comment is nowhere near out of order compared to you trying to use "Hillsborough" to get me and others on side.  I have already told you why Hillsborough is a sensitive issue to me personally.

I have listened to Corbyn.  The man is totally incompetent and surrounds himself with some truly undesirable people.  He is destroying the Labour party and if he stays as leader he is allowing the Tories to be in Government for the foreseeable future. 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 03:08:44 pm by In Fowler We Trust »
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4677 on: August 25, 2016, 03:13:05 pm »
First of all I am not your "mate".

My comment is nowhere near out of order compared to you trying to use "Hillsborough" to get me and others on side.  I have already told you why Hillsborough is a sensitive issue to me personally.

You have never to my recollection told me any such thing. Get shlrty as you choose but when you have addressed the inaccurate political remark you were responsible for posting, we can all get to the truth.

This is the thread where we debate only the Labour election leadership / policy issues I am informed and so I will not respond to any other part of your comment.
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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4678 on: August 25, 2016, 03:15:15 pm »
You have never to my recollection told me any such thing. Get shlrty as you choose but when you have addressed the inaccurate political remark you were responsible for posting, we can all get to the truth.

This is the thread where we debate only the Labour election leadership / policy issues I am informed and so I will not respond to any other part of your comment.

As indicated, I've removed all of the posts relating to Hillsborough that have been posted over the past couple of days so it's possible that some comments made have been missed.

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Re: The Labour Leadership Contest (*)
« Reply #4679 on: August 25, 2016, 03:17:20 pm »
Labour was trying to address the issue of the under "7s" with Sure Start.  The Tories scrapped it.  Mind you, as it was a so called "new Labour" policy no doubt all the Corbyn followers will dismiss it out of hand as well.
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