Author Topic: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism  (Read 37717 times)

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #200 on: November 15, 2015, 09:16:18 am »
It'll slow to a trickle when every man and woman in the affected regions can wake up and look forward to a day of peaceful, useful in improving their circumstances, work. Fundamentally, the why can be understood. How you go about it though, seeing the myriad factors striving for dominance - individual dictators, political, religious, economic, foreign powers - to reach a situation where those areas can have peace and then build....I don't see it. Not within my life time, not within the next generation, or even the one after that. As such, the terrorists will remain, unabated imo.

What is clear, is that this incident will look like a mere appetizer if Hollande tries to play the big I am card. Isis as a empire builder can be sorted out by the military of a minor nation, that isn't the issue, their ability to subvert culture and work from the shadows is. Real change will come if France stops treating her Tunisian / Moroccan / African immigrants and their sons / daughters like shit, as 2nd class citizens. That's where the fight is. I've seen a bit of the world and that one theme keeps repeating itself, it's amazing how thick countries can be, when through their legislation and their processes they treat a section of their people like utter donkeys, and then become surprised when dissatisfaction and rage rears its head, it's not just France or the more prominent examples, the Muslim majority countries are famous for that too.

Offline thisyearisouryear

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #201 on: November 15, 2015, 09:18:15 am »
They need religion, it's their recruitment vehicle, how else will they convince people to blow themselves up. The people at the top just want power, the people executing the terrorist acts truely believe this is what God wants them to do. Otherwise they would not carry out suicide missions. I have heard second hand accounts from people asked by Isis leadership to become suicide bombers.
A good mate of mine here in London was telling me how someone he knows went to Syria to join Isis. Within 4 days of being there, his handler, an Imam, came to congratulate him. What for he asked, "I had a dream" he was told , "you have been chosen" , chosen for what he asked , "chosen for the greatest path" , and so it went on, "I've only been here 4 days, why is it my turn, how come you haven't been chosen?". "We wait for this honour to be bestowed upon us, sadly we have not been lucky yet".... The lad ended up escaping over the border back to Turkey, then coming home. On Another occasion,  an Isis bomber handed himself to Lebanese authorities, suicide belt and all, he had a similar conversation with his handler , when he asked why me not you he was told "God only chooses those with the will power to succeed, I do not have your willpower". Then it was made clear to him that if he refuses to become a suicide bomber he ll be executed, so had to go through with it until he was sent out on the mission.
The whole thing is a farce, they brain wash those who lack any awareness to know better, and also rule them by fear.
The whole idea of them hating how the west lives and wanting to change their lives is rubbish too, they have scores of jihadi brides who they pass on from one dead soldier to the next, they have feasts and parties and all sorts. Their leaders are  ex republican guards in the Iraqi army. No interest in religion or spreading Islam , just want their own state to rule and get rich and powerful doing so. Being called Islamists and Islamic and Muslim terrorists is the best thing to happen to them, does their recruitment drive a power of good with stupid Western European Muslim youths who are looking for someone to blame for not advancing in their lives and Isis gives them a greater cause.

I haven't read any religious texts as such, not even my own religion (The one I was born; otherwise consider myself agnostic). So can you help me understand why would youth of one particular religion be so much more susceptible to such teachings and exhorting?

The way I see it - it is either that the religion inherently is a bit more radical and supports fundamentalism more than other religions or that on an average, globally the youth of that particular religion is in such a state as to make their mental state more susceptible to such diatribe. Which one is it ? Or is it something else I am missing?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:21:37 am by thisyearisouryear »

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #202 on: November 15, 2015, 09:43:43 am »
They need religion, it's their recruitment vehicle, how else will they convince people to blow themselves up. The people at the top just want power, the people executing the terrorist acts truely believe this is what God wants them to do. Otherwise they would not carry out suicide missions. I have heard second hand accounts from people asked by Isis leadership to become suicide bombers.
A good mate of mine here in London was telling me how someone he knows went to Syria to join Isis. Within 4 days of being there, his handler, an Imam, came to congratulate him. What for he asked, "I had a dream" he was told , "you have been chosen" , chosen for what he asked , "chosen for the greatest path" , and so it went on, "I've only been here 4 days, why is it my turn, how come you haven't been chosen?". "We wait for this honour to be bestowed upon us, sadly we have not been lucky yet".... The lad ended up escaping over the border back to Turkey, then coming home. On Another occasion,  an Isis bomber handed himself to Lebanese authorities, suicide belt and all, he had a similar conversation with his handler , when he asked why me not you he was told "God only chooses those with the will power to succeed, I do not have your willpower". Then it was made clear to him that if he refuses to become a suicide bomber he ll be executed, so had to go through with it until he was sent out on the mission.
The whole thing is a farce, they brain wash those who lack any awareness to know better, and also rule them by fear.
The whole idea of them hating how the west lives and wanting to change their lives is rubbish too, they have scores of jihadi brides who they pass on from one dead soldier to the next, they have feasts and parties and all sorts. Their leaders are  ex republican guards in the Iraqi army. No interest in religion or spreading Islam , just want their own state to rule and get rich and powerful doing so. Being called Islamists and Islamic and Muslim terrorists is the best thing to happen to them, does their recruitment drive a power of good with stupid Western European Muslim youths who are looking for someone to blame for not advancing in their lives and Isis gives them a greater cause.


There was a profile on Al-Baghdadi that I posted here a few weeks ago that details how the organisation came together and how he came to become its leader. In it, it is only briefly talked about, but it talks about a prison that housed many of the generals from Saddam's guard along with these Sunni extremists. To cut a really long story short, in the aftermath of Saddam's removal, sectarian affiliation came to define one's identities and Sunnis were often butchered on the streets by Shia killing squads. This created a hugely violent form of religious identity politics that is being used by ISIS. In a part of the world where one's religious beliefs also in many cases determine their very identity, that's a rather handy tool to have. The mullahs and the imams are all frauds that are looking for a way to further their missions while sacrificing their sacrificial lambs i.e. the idiots from Europe, but rest assured many of them deeply hold the views that they do. If everyone ran back home on meeting their Imam that tells them that they were selected by Allah himself for this glorious mission, ISIS would have imploded by now. They haven't done so for a reason. 
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #203 on: November 15, 2015, 09:49:18 am »
I haven't read any religious texts as such, not even my own religion (The one I was born; otherwise consider myself agnostic). So can you help me understand why would youth of one particular religion be so much more susceptible to such teachings and exhorting?

The way I see it - it is either that the religion inherently is a bit more radical and supports fundamentalism more than other religions or that on an average, globally the youth of that particular religion is in such a state as to make their mental state more susceptible to such diatribe. Which one is it ? Or is it something else I am missing?

I think it's both, religion in the wrong hands is a bomb. If you read any holy book to the letter of the world. You are duty bound to at least reject a certain section of society, if not condemn them to  an afterlife of damnation . By design, Islam is the most agressive religion, as far as the Koran is concerned, it is the third holy book that God gave the world, because the previous 2 did not cure the ills of the world because humans lack discipline. So this way of life is the way to go and it adds the necessary discipline to previous holy books. It also has not been changed or applied to modern times so if the reader lacks common sense, it could be interpreted very dangerously.
 Throw into the mix people who feel , unwanted, underappreciated, discriminated against, labelled terrorists, growing up outside the society they are born into. That paranoia only needs to get through to a very small minority of people and with some guidance you can convince certain people of anything.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #204 on: November 15, 2015, 10:01:10 am »
There was a profile on Al-Baghdadi that I posted here a few weeks ago that details how the organisation came together and how he came to become its leader. In it, it is only briefly talked about, but it talks about a prison that housed many of the generals from Saddam's guard along with these Sunni extremists. To cut a really long story short, in the aftermath of Saddam's removal, sectarian affiliation came to define one's identities and Sunnis were often butchered on the streets by Shia killing squads. This created a hugely violent form of religious identity politics that is being used by ISIS. In a part of the world where one's religious beliefs also in many cases determine their very identity, that's a rather handy tool to have. The mullahs and the imams are all frauds that are looking for a way to further their missions while sacrificing their sacrificial lambs i.e. the idiots from Europe, but rest assured many of them deeply hold the views that they do. If everyone ran back home on meeting their Imam that tells them that they were selected by Allah himself for this glorious mission, ISIS would have imploded by now. They haven't done so for a reason.

I don't disagree, just pointing out that the fact that the leaders are never the ones blowing themselves up but always sending in their minions to do so, means they don't believe the crap they paddle in their statements about martyrdom and all that rubbish. The statement they released yesterday "May God accept our 8 martyrs and allow us to follow them". Pure bull, they have a very rich land to rule.
The minions themselves, completely buy into what they're being told. But I believe you need to be a certain type of person to allow yourself to end up in this situation.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #205 on: November 15, 2015, 10:12:10 am »
I don't disagree, just pointing out that the fact that the leaders are never the ones blowing themselves up but always sending in their minions to do so, means they don't believe the crap they paddle in their statements about martyrdom and all that rubbish. The statement they released yesterday "May God accept our 8 martyrs and allow us to follow them". Pure bull, they have a very rich land to rule.
The minions themselves, completely buy into what they're being told. But I believe you need to be a certain type of person to allow yourself to end up in this situation.

I don't disagree at all that the higher ups are taking advantage of the piety of the fools that they send to blow themselves up. What we should not forget though is that the ones at the top including the likes of Baghdadi are utterly convinced that they're carrying out God's work and that these guys by blowing themselves up are doing God's work. There's a certain strategy to it all, which is human common sense kicking in, but there's also a huge amount of religious conviction right from the top to the bottom. That profile of Baghdadi says how he was always extremely pious, right from a very young age and went ahead and received his PhD in Islamic studies from Baghdad university. Throughout this time, he was becoming increasingly violent although he did show signs of being like that when he was younger also by ratting on some neighbours about alcohol or something like that at a wedding (can't remember clearly). I guess the point is that, he's a staunch Islamist in the sense that his belief that a caliphate should be instated is absolute, but equally he's strategic enough to know that blowing himself up when there are dozens of other idiots happy to do it would be a waste of his talents. That's a dangerous combination.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #206 on: November 15, 2015, 10:27:13 am »
I don't disagree at all that the higher ups are taking advantage of the piety of the fools that they send to blow themselves up. What we should not forget though is that the ones at the top including the likes of Baghdadi are utterly convinced that they're carrying out God's work and that these guys by blowing themselves up are doing God's work. There's a certain strategy to it all, which is human common sense kicking in, but there's also a huge amount of religious conviction right from the top to the bottom. That profile of Baghdadi says how he was always extremely pious, right from a very young age and went ahead and received his PhD in Islamic studies from Baghdad university. Throughout this time, he was becoming increasingly violent although he did show signs of being like that when he was younger also by ratting on some neighbours about alcohol or something like that at a wedding (can't remember clearly). I guess the point is that, he's a staunch Islamist in the sense that his belief that a caliphate should be instated is absolute, but equally he's strategic enough to know that blowing himself up when there are dozens of other idiots happy to do it would be a waste of his talents. That's a dangerous combination.

In the end It doesn't matter what their end game is, they have done more than enough to need to be wiped out. not sure how that can be done though. It will need boots on the ground and I'm not very comfortable with that , it'll be a bloodbath for our troops. Unfortunately lighting up candles, walking hand in hand and singing imagine won't do a thing to them, they actually need to be wiped out. Otherwise they'll get through again at some stage, somewhere.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 10:29:37 am by The North Bank »

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #207 on: November 15, 2015, 11:04:58 am »
A long and very eye-opening article about the huge role Saddam Hussein's Baathists play in ISIS:

"When Abu Hamza, a former Syrian rebel, agreed to join the Islamic State, he did so assuming he would become a part of the group’s promised Islamist utopia, which has lured foreign jihadists from around the globe.

Instead, he found himself being supervised by an Iraqi emir and receiving orders from shadowy Iraqis who moved in and out of the battlefield in Syria. When Abu Hamza disagreed with fellow commanders at an Islamic State meeting last year, he said, he was placed under arrest on the orders of a masked Iraqi man who had sat silently through the proceedings, listening and taking notes.

Abu Hamza, who became the group’s ruler in a small community in Syria, never discovered the Iraqis’ real identities, which were cloaked by code names or simply not revealed. All of the men, however, were former Iraqi officers who had served under Saddam Hussein, including the masked man, who had once worked for an Iraqi intelligence agency and now belonged to the Islamic State’s own shadowy security service, he said.

His account, and those of others who have lived with or fought against the Islamic State over the past two years, underscore the pervasive role played by members of Iraq’s former Baathist army in an organization more typically associated with flamboyant foreign jihadists and the gruesome videos in which they star.

Even with the influx of thousands of foreign fighters, almost all of the leaders of the Islamic State are former Iraqi officers, including the members of its shadowy military and security committees, and the majority of its emirs and princes, according to Iraqis, Syrians and analysts who study the group.

They have brought to the organization the military expertise and some of the agendas of the former Baathists, as well as the smuggling networks developed to avoid sanctions in the 1990s and which now facilitate the Islamic State’s illicit oil trading."

Lots more in the full article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-hidden-hand-behind-the-islamic-state-militants-saddam-husseins/2015/04/04/aa97676c-cc32-11e4-8730-4f473416e759_story.html?tid=pm_world_pop_b
It is eye-opening. The NYRB carried a brilliant piece earlier this year showing the intimate connections between Saddam's high command and ISIS. The overlap at the apex of both organisations was astonishing.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #208 on: November 15, 2015, 11:41:52 am »
It is eye-opening. The NYRB carried a brilliant piece earlier this year showing the intimate connections between Saddam's high command and ISIS. The overlap at the apex of both organisations was astonishing.
Don't suppose you have a link for that story? would love to read it.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #211 on: November 15, 2015, 12:08:21 pm »
The worst bit about all this is that somewhere in the west people are making a disgusting amount of money from these wars. And it wouldn't surprise me if AIPAC are the beneficiaries. If you don't know who they are look them up. Corrupt fuckers.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #212 on: November 15, 2015, 12:12:35 pm »
The worst bit about all this is that somewhere in the west people are making a disgusting amount of money from these wars. And it wouldn't surprise me if AIPAC are the beneficiaries. If you don't know who they are look them up. Corrupt fuckers.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/israel-grants-golan-heights-oil-license-2013-2

Israel has granted a U.S. company the first licence to explore for oil and gas in the occupied Golan Heights, John Reed of the Financial Times reports.
A local subsidiary of the New York-listed company Genie Energy — which is advised by former vice president Dick Cheney and whose shareholders include Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch — will now have exclusive rights to a 153-square mile radius in the southern part of the Golan Heights.

That geographic location will likely prove controversial. Israel seized the Golan Heights in the Six-Day War in 1967 and annexed the territory in 1981. Its administration of the area — which is not recognised by international law — has been mostly peaceful until the Syrian civil war broke out 23 months ago.

“This action is mostly political – it’s an attempt to deepen Israeli commitment to the occupied Golan Heights,” Israeli political analyst Yaron Ezrahi told FT. “The timing is directly related to the fact that the Syrian government is dealing with violence and chaos and is not free to deal with this problem.”
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #214 on: November 15, 2015, 12:14:03 pm »
Anyone see Donald Trump talking about how the events in Paris wouldn't have been as severe if the people of Paris had guns?

Does that fuckwit have any idea of the magnitude of the precedent that hes advocating setting?

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #215 on: November 15, 2015, 12:16:48 pm »
Does that fuckwit have any idea of the magnitude of the precedent that hes advocating setting?

He doesn't have any precedent of anything. He's a moron who happens to be incredibly rich.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #216 on: November 15, 2015, 12:17:34 pm »
Relevance to topic?

Yes, quite. The only reason drilling on that pipeline is going ahead is the instability in Syria which we all know or at least should know was planned by the U.S. government and exposed by WikiLeaks.

Fact is there are some very powerful people gaining from the Syrian crisis, as "Clinical" mentioned and I replied to.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #217 on: November 15, 2015, 12:18:44 pm »
You would think that the Westernisation (being exposed to Western, TV, films, music, literature, culture etc) of Muslims that live in Europe (or America for that matter) would make particularly the younger people less focused on Religion. We've seen over the past fifty years a downturn in Christianity in the West and an upturn in Secular humanism - (or agnosticism/atheism). This is particularly true in the UK, but I'd guess that people have become more secular in all countries where people have become exposed to higher levels of education.

I'd have expected the same to have happened within Islamic nations to younger people, but it seems the opposite has happened and the young have become more and more politicised and anti-west. Which makes it a lot harder to tackle Muslim extremism.

I think it's up to us to put pressure on the clerics and leaders in Islam, to preach a more peaceful version of their religion and stress that the more extreme versions of their religion are invalid. We need to get more Muslims to condemn this sort of behaviour. A lot of Muslims I know (who I have worked with) go very quiet when attacks of this nature happen, but very rarely condemn "their brothers". There needs to be a cultural change within Islam.

I live in a Muslim country and completely agree with you.  There is a definite Ostrich approach from Muslims when these things happen.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 10:10:55 pm by Kenny's Jacket »
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #218 on: November 15, 2015, 12:20:00 pm »
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/israel-grants-golan-heights-oil-license-2013-2

Israel has granted a U.S. company the first licence to explore for oil and gas in the occupied Golan Heights, John Reed of the Financial Times reports.
A local subsidiary of the New York-listed company Genie Energy — which is advised by former vice president Dick Cheney and whose shareholders include Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch — will now have exclusive rights to a 153-square mile radius in the southern part of the Golan Heights.

That geographic location will likely prove controversial. Israel seized the Golan Heights in the Six-Day War in 1967 and annexed the territory in 1981. Its administration of the area — which is not recognised by international law — has been mostly peaceful until the Syrian civil war broke out 23 months ago.

“This action is mostly political – it’s an attempt to deepen Israeli commitment to the occupied Golan Heights,” Israeli political analyst Yaron Ezrahi told FT. “The timing is directly related to the fact that the Syrian government is dealing with violence and chaos and is not free to deal with this problem.”

Exactly. The World is evil. We need to beat the corruption within as well as these nutters.

These extremists are ignorant. They are ignorant through belief. They are brainwashed by the extreme preaching nutters who use Allah as a reason. They require proper education and not to believe everything they hear. There was a video of a teenager who blew himself up in a car, he didn't want to do it. But the guys round him said for Allah, for your brothers. It's their culture. It's almost an impossible task to stop it. You have to target the preachers. Of which there are many in this country!

Don't forget these guys are very far behind in terms of development and education.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #219 on: November 15, 2015, 12:24:14 pm »
I also agree with that fact peaceful Muslims aren't doing enough. Is it because they are scared to question their religion. Shame from family members? I don't know. But like the guys have said above the Muslims I know go very quiet and simply say not all Muslims are like that. Which is 100% correct. But that's an easy thing to say. More efforts are needed within the Muslim community to educate others
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #220 on: November 15, 2015, 12:29:40 pm »
I also agree with that fact peaceful Muslims aren't doing enough. Is it because they are scared to question their religion. Shame from family members? I don't know. But like the guys have said above the Muslims I know go very quiet and simply say not all Muslims are like that. Which is 100% correct. But that's an easy thing to say. More efforts are needed within the Muslim community to educate others
From what I see, the average Muslim man/woman is doing as much as anyone else.

Those self elected 'community leaders/spokesmen' seem to be less audible.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #221 on: November 15, 2015, 12:38:44 pm »
I haven't read any religious texts as such, not even my own religion (The one I was born; otherwise consider myself agnostic). So can you help me understand why would youth of one particular religion be so much more susceptible to such teachings and exhorting?

The way I see it - it is either that the religion inherently is a bit more radical and supports fundamentalism more than other religions or that on an average, globally the youth of that particular religion is in such a state as to make their mental state more susceptible to such diatribe. Which one is it ? Or is it something else I am missing?

Im heading out in a minute so Ill have to be brief.  Im Athiest, but Btitish so had to say Lords prayer at school when i was a kid at school etc.  So my Bible knowledge is prolly the same as yours. I have however studied the Qu'ran (long story) 

The Bible is not claiming to be the direct word of God, but people interpretation of it. Therefore it is easy for Christianity to reform itself. The bits that are outdated are either forgotten or given another meaning to fit in to today's world. Most Christians now say that its symbolic and not literal when confronted with things they find uncomfortable.

The Qu'ran is a message passed to the prophet from God.  So they need to believe that its all true and literal. Otherwise its easier to pick holes in the entire concept of their religion.  However the entire thing does contradict itself, but the Imam usually some excuse for that. Its also the newest mainstream religion.  Things will get better regarding the literal interpretation, but it needs time and a lot of help from Muslim scholars.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #222 on: November 15, 2015, 12:40:43 pm »
I know that the dust hasn't settled yet in Paris and emotions are running high but, at some time soon, a response to this situation needs to be considered. I suspect that most of us have children, grandchildren, cousins and friends that could be affected by this in the future, so it's directly relevant to us all.  Yes, we're simple football fans but we are from a cross section of the community, so our opinions will be representative.   

First of all, I'm probably the most pacifying pacifist you'll find anywhere and, having studied the impact of war since the Georgian period, I know full well the devastation it causes for generations. However, although I've dealt with sudden and tragic deaths professionally on many occasions over the years, I have no armed forces experience.

We're sitting ducks, aren't we so who's next? 

Let's be honest, everyone knew that a Mumbai style attack was going to happen, we just didn't know when and where.   The security services have been training for this exact sort of thing for years but it happen so fast that, by the time they're in a position to respond, the attack is over, with dozens left dead. Frankly, i don't blame the security services in France at all and, to a degree, I absolve their politicians as well.

So, what should the Western World do about this?  Just sit and wait whilst ISIL plan their next attack?  They have the resources to keep this going for years and it's not a short term gripe they have, with a solution that's within our gift. Simply, their stated aim is that they want rid of all non-Muslims.   News that all the radio-active material from hospital in ISIL held parts of Iraq have gone missing gives us a clue what they might be planning for us sometime in the future.

My Muslim friends are scared. They want ISIL taken out for they fear the alternative - living in a country where they're constantly being monitored by the Authorities and under suspicion by the neighbours, A nightmare and, frankly, we all know idiots who'd take it even further.

Unlike AQ, we know where ISIL are.

So what do we do?

Carry on as were are but with heightened security?

Or form an alliance with France, USA and, yes, even Russia to put soldiers on the ground to take ISIL out once and for all?

What legacy could we be left with, if either approach was adopted? 

A radio-active London or New York?  Or,

Parts of the Middle East very bitter at the 'Crusaders' who invaded their country, hating the West to a point of wanting to commit murder...?

I'd be interested in your views, as everyone's opinion is valid but, particularly RAWKites with armed forces experience, who can provide an insight into the difficulties of a land war with the ISIL army currently fighting the Kurds in Iraq. 


Sadly, as you can see from the answers in here, there is no answer. And I certainly don't have one. But what I do know is, you can't wipe out a belief. Look what happened to the Romans when they tried. And Theresa May spying in here, and taking away our human rights, no matter what our opinion, is no answer to anything.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #223 on: November 15, 2015, 12:42:15 pm »
I also agree with that fact peaceful Muslims aren't doing enough. Is it because they are scared to question their religion. Shame from family members? I don't know. But like the guys have said above the Muslims I know go very quiet and simply say not all Muslims are like that. Which is 100% correct. But that's an easy thing to say. More efforts are needed within the Muslim community to educate others

There is no such thing as the Muslim community. Or any other community, or community leaders.Is there anyone in your community that you identify as your leader. If super powers can't stop these people, what are you expecting from normal civilians. We live in a world where people don't really pry into others business, being of the same religion as someone else does not give you more rights to question them, or more access to what they do. 

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #225 on: November 15, 2015, 01:11:35 pm »
With regards tackling terrorism it's very hard for us to give a sensible plan of action as we are only told what we are drip fed by our media, does anyone honestly think they know exactly what Russia, the U.S and the rest of the West want from the Syrian/Middle East crisis? Do we know how many powerful people are profiting from this destabilisation and if these people actually want a peaceful solution?

I think theses attacks in France are a wake up call to the civilians of the western world. The U.S. planned to destabilise Syria as stated in a WikiLeak from the U.S. embassy in Damascus. The UK and the U.S. illegally entered Iraq for reasons which still haven't been disclosed but I think we can all guess. The governments of the west aren't acting on behalf of the people, they are working behind the scenes drip feeding us the information they want us to know and the knock on effect has lead to yet another terrorist attack on European soil.

Now that's not to say the west and the west alone is to blame, that's far from the truth but I do think there should be serious discussions about Americas foreign policy in particular. Maybe we can in another thread.

First off in Syria/Iraq is ISIS needs to go. Funding has to be stopped, their oil fields need to be hit. The official line from the west seems to be that civilians will be injured and infrastructure destroyed by bombing these oil fields but is there any other alternative? It would seem it's the Kurds, FSA and other "terrorist" groups buying the oil the sanctions proposed by the US there for are pointless, much like a lot of their action in the Middle East.

Then you have the civil war in Syria which has become a side show to the rise of ISIS but unless settled helps to further destabilise the country and there for support for ISIS and other terrorist groups within the region. I think Assad has to agree to step down, Syria does not have a future with Assad in power. The UN will have to step in and in time bring Syria to the ballot box, this will only be possible after ISIS and Assad are long gone though.

For all this to happen Putin and Obama have to sit at a table and make a decision for the good of Syria, not the good of Russia or the U.S. which lets face it, isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 01:13:39 pm by ShayGuevara »
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #226 on: November 15, 2015, 01:15:55 pm »
There is no such thing as the Muslim community. Or any other community, or community leaders.Is there anyone in your community that you identify as your leader. If super powers can't stop these people, what are you expecting from normal civilians. We live in a world where people don't really pry into others business, being of the same religion as someone else does not give you more rights to question them, or more access to what they do.
Ive no idea how you can argue theres no such thing as a community. a community is a social group who live in a particular area and share the same lifestyle and beliefs. you don't join a club to belong to a community, you are a part of that community by mixing within that community.that is community spirit.  there are others who actively help to make that community a better place to live. they have no authority to lead but they are respected.
I would say anyone with influence is a leader. some are positive and some are negative. we are stopping the negative leaders like Abu Hamza.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #227 on: November 15, 2015, 01:17:18 pm »
I live in a Muslim and completely agree with you.  There is a definite Ostrich approach from Muslims when these things happen.

Why the fuck should people apologize for ignorant actions of people they don't even know. When the civil right movement was in full swing MLK noted something similar : the greatest challenge is not the White right but the White moderate with their apathy.

This is not something unique to Muslims.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #228 on: November 15, 2015, 01:25:21 pm »
I posted an extract from a speech Nasrallah gave shortly after the Charlie Hebdo attacks, saying these attacks were far more damaging to Islam than the cartoons would ever be, pretty sure there were some Sunni clerics who condemned their actions at the time as well.

The problem is though these words mean little to murderers who label anyone but them as heretics. Fatwahs etc mean little because to these terrorists they are coming from non believers anyway.

The ostrich analogy to Muslims is rather wayward as well. While the pain of Paris is going to be felt for some time,  to the various countries I visit it is a horrible every day reality; the long hugs and kisses they give each other everytime someone pops out to the grocer are more akin to an airport farewell, because the reality is they just don't know what will happen the moment they step out the door.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #229 on: November 15, 2015, 01:30:57 pm »
I know that the dust hasn't settled yet in Paris and emotions are running high but, at some time soon, a response to this situation needs to be considered. I suspect that most of us have children, grandchildren, cousins and friends that could be affected by this in the future, so it's directly relevant to us all.  Yes, we're simple football fans but we are from a cross section of the community, so our opinions will be representative.   

First of all, I'm probably the most pacifying pacifist you'll find anywhere and, having studied the impact of war since the Georgian period, I know full well the devastation it causes for generations. However, although I've dealt with sudden and tragic deaths professionally on many occasions over the years, I have no armed forces experience.

We're sitting ducks, aren't we so who's next? 

Let's be honest, everyone knew that a Mumbai style attack was going to happen, we just didn't know when and where.   The security services have been training for this exact sort of thing for years but it happen so fast that, by the time they're in a position to respond, the attack is over, with dozens left dead. Frankly, i don't blame the security services in France at all and, to a degree, I absolve their politicians as well.

So, what should the Western World do about this?  Just sit and wait whilst ISIL plan their next attack?  They have the resources to keep this going for years and it's not a short term gripe they have, with a solution that's within our gift. Simply, their stated aim is that they want rid of all non-Muslims.   News that all the radio-active material from hospital in ISIL held parts of Iraq have gone missing gives us a clue what they might be planning for us sometime in the future.

My Muslim friends are scared. They want ISIL taken out for they fear the alternative - living in a country where they're constantly being monitored by the Authorities and under suspicion by the neighbours, A nightmare and, frankly, we all know idiots who'd take it even further.

Unlike AQ, we know where ISIL are.

So what do we do?

Carry on as were are but with heightened security?

Or form an alliance with France, USA and, yes, even Russia to put soldiers on the ground to take ISIL out once and for all?

What legacy could we be left with, if either approach was adopted? 

A radio-active London or New York?  Or,

Parts of the Middle East very bitter at the 'Crusaders' who invaded their country, hating the West to a point of wanting to commit murder...?

I'd be interested in your views, as everyone's opinion is valid but, particularly RAWKites with armed forces experience, who can provide an insight into the difficulties of a land war with the ISIL army currently fighting the Kurds in Iraq. 



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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #230 on: November 15, 2015, 01:31:36 pm »
Ive no idea how you can argue theres no such thing as a community. a community is a social group who live in a particular area and share the same lifestyle and beliefs. you don't join a club to belong to a community, you are a part of that community by mixing within that community.that is community spirit.  there are others who actively help to make that community a better place to live. they have no authority to lead but they are respected.
I would say anyone with influence is a leader. some are positive and some are negative. we are stopping the negative leaders like Abu Hamza.

This community you describe has no relevance to the "muslim" community, Muslims don't live in a particular area, they don't share the same language, culture, tradition, history.  You  don't ask someone in the usa to do more about Russian atrocities because they both happen to be Christian.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #231 on: November 15, 2015, 01:37:03 pm »
A great article from last year


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html


An Open Letter to Moderate Muslims


Let's start with what I'm not going to do.

I'm not going to accuse you of staying silent in the face of the horrific atrocities being committed around the world by your co-religionists. Most of you have loudly and unequivocally condemned groups like the Islamic State (ISIS), and gone out of your way to dissociate yourselves from them. You have helped successfully isolate ISIS and significantly damage its credibility.

I'm also not going to accuse you of being sympathetic to fundamentalists' causes like violent jihad or conversion by force. I know you condemn their primitive tactics like the rest of us, maybe even more so, considering the majority of victims of Islamic terrorists are moderate Muslims like yourselves. On this, I am with you.

But I do want to talk to you about your increasingly waning credibility -- a concern many of you have articulated as well.

You're feeling more misunderstood than ever, as Islamic fundamentalists hijack the image of Muslims, ostentatiously presenting themselves as the "voice of Islam." And worse, everyone seems to be buying it.

The frustration is evident. In response to comedian Bill Maher's recent segment ripping liberals for their silence on criticizing Islam, religious scholar Reza Aslan slammed him in a CNN interview. Visibly exasperated, he ultimately resorted to using words like "stupid" and "bigot" to make his points. (He apologized for this later.)

We'll get to Aslan's other arguments in a bit. But first, let's talk about something he said to his hosts that I know many of you relate to: that moderate Muslims are too often painted with the same brush as their fundamentalist counterparts. This is often true, and is largely unfair to moderates like yourselves.

But you can't simply blame this on the "ignorance" or "bigotry" of non-Muslims, or on media bias. Non-Muslims and the media are no more monolithic than the Muslim world you and I come from.

The problem is this: moderate Muslims like you also play a significant role in perpetuating this narrative -- even if you don't intend to.

To understand how, it's important to see how it looks from the other side.

***

Tell me if this sounds familiar:

(1) A moderate Muslim states that ISIS is wrong, they aren't "true" Muslims, and Islam is a religion of peace.
(2) A questioner asks: what about verses in the Quran like 4:89, saying to "seize and kill" disbelievers? Or 8:12-13, saying God sent angels to "smite the necks and fingertips" of disbelievers, foreboding a "grievous penalty" for whoever opposes Allah and his Messenger? Or 5:33, which says those who "spread corruption" (a vague phrase widely believed to include blasphemy and apostasy) should be "killed or crucified"? Or 47:4, which also prescribes beheading for disbelievers encountered in jihad?
(3) The Muslim responds by defending these verses as Allah's word -- he insists that they have been quoted "out of context," have been misinterpreted, are meant as metaphor, or that they may even have been mistranslated.
(4) Despite being shown multiple translations, or told that some of these passages (like similar passages in other holy books) are questionable in any context, the Muslim insists on his/her defense of the Scripture.
Sometimes, this kind of exchange will lead to the questioner being labeled an "Islamophobe," or being accused of bigotry, as Aslan did with Maher and his CNN hosts. This is a very serious charge that is very effective at ending the conversation. No one wants to be called a bigot.

But put yourself in the shoes of your non-Muslim audience. Is it really them linking Islam to terrorism? We're surrounded with images and videos of jihadists yelling "Allahu Akbar" and quoting passages from the Quran before beheading someone (usually a non-Muslim), setting off an explosion, or rallying others to battle. Who is really making this connection?

What would you do if this situation was reversed? What are non-Muslims supposed to think when even moderate Muslims like yourselves defend the very same words and book that these fundamentalists effortlessly quote as justification for killing them -- as perfect and infallible?

Like other moderates, Reza Aslan frequently bemoans those who read the Quran "literally." Interestingly enough, we sort of agree on this: the thought of the Quran being read "literally" -- or exactly as Allah wrote it -- unsettles me as much as it unsettles Reza.

This is telling, and Reza isn't alone. Many of you insist on alternative interpretations, some kind of metaphorical reading -- anything to avoid reading the holy book the way it's actually written. What message do you think this sends? To those on the outside, it implies there is something lacking in what you claim is God's perfect word. In a way, you're telling the listener to value your explanations of these words over the sacred words themselves. Obviously, this doesn't make a great case for divine authorship. Combined with the claims that the book is widely misunderstood, it makes the writer appear either inarticulate or incompetent. I know that's not the message you mean to send -- I've been where you are. But it is important to understand why it comes across that way to many non-Muslims.

If any kind of literature is to be interpreted "metaphorically," it has to at least represent the original idea. Metaphors are meant to illustrate and clarify ideas, not twist and obscure them. When the literal words speak of blatant violence but are claimed to really mean peace and unity, we're not in interpretation/metaphor zone anymore; we're heading into distortion/misrepresentation territory. If this disconnect was limited to one or two verses, I would consider your argument. If your interpretation were accepted by all of the world's Muslims, I would consider your argument. Unfortunately, neither of these is the case.

You may be shaking your head at this point. I know your explanations are very convincing to fellow believers. That's expected. When people don't want to abandon their faith or their conscience, they'll jump on anything they can find to reconcile the two.

But believe me, outside the echo chamber, all of this is very confusing. I've argued with Western liberals who admit they don't find these arguments convincing, but hold back their opinions for fear of being seen as Islamophobic, or in the interest of supporting moderates within the Muslim community who share their goals of fighting jihad and fundamentalism. Many of your liberal allies are sincere, but you'd be surprised how many won't tell you what they really think because of fear or political correctness. The only difference between them and Bill Maher is that Maher actually says it.

Unfortunately, this is what's eating away at your credibility. This is what makes otherwise rational moderate Muslims look remarkably inconsistent. Despite your best intentions, you also embolden anti-Muslim bigots -- albeit unknowingly -- by effectively narrowing the differences between yourselves and the fundamentalists. You condemn all kinds of terrible things being done in the name of your religion, but when the same things appear as verses in your book, you use all your faculties to defend them. This comes across as either denial or disingenuousness, both of which make an honest conversation impossible.

This presents an obvious dilemma. The belief that the Quran is the unquestionable word of God is fundamental to the Islamic faith, and held by the vast majority of Muslims worldwide, fundamentalist or progressive. Many of you believe that letting it go is as good as calling yourself non-Muslim. I get that. But does it have to be that way?

Having grown up as part of a Muslim family in several Muslim-majority countries, I've been hearing discussions about an Islamic reformation for as long as I can remember. Ultimately, I came to believe that the first step to any kind of substantive reformation is to seriously reconsider the concept of scriptural inerrancy.

And I'm not the only one. Maajid Nawaz, a committed Muslim, speaks openly about acknowledging problems in the Quran. Recently, in a brave article here right here on The Huffington Post, Imra Nazeer also asked Muslims to reconsider treating the Quran as infallible.

Is she right? At first glance, this may be a shocking thought. But it's possible, and it actually has precedent.

***

I grew up in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, before the Internet. We had an after-school tutor who taught us to read and recite the Quran in classical Arabic, the language in which it's written.

My family is among the majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims -- concentrated in countries like Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Turkey and Iran -- that doesn't speak Arabic. Millions of us, however, can read the Quran in Arabic, even if we don't understand it.

In most Muslim households, the Quran is physically placed at the highest place possible. In our house, it was at the top of a tall bookshelf. It cannot be physically touched unless an act of ablution/purification (wudhu) is first performed. It cannot be recited or touched by menstruating women. It is read in its entirety during the Sunni taraweeh prayers in the holy month of Ramadan. In many Muslim communities, it is held over the heads of grooms and brides as a blessing when they get married. A child completing her first reading of the Quran is a momentous occasion -- parties are thrown, gifts are given.

But before the Internet, I rarely met anyone -- including the devoutly religious -- who had really read the Quran in their own language. We just went by what we heard from our elders. We couldn't Google or verify things instantaneously like we do now.

There were many things in the Quran we didn't know were in there. Like Aslan, we also mistakenly thought that harsh punishments in Saudi Arabia like decapitation and hand amputation were cultural and not religious. Later, we learned that the Quran does indeed prescribe beheadings, and says clearly in verse 5:38 that thieves, male or female, should have their hands cut off.

Now, there are also other things widely thought to be in the Quran that aren't actually in there. A prominent example is the hijab or burka -- neither is mentioned in the Quran. Also absent is stoning to death as a punishment -- it's mentioned in the hadith (the Sunnah, or traditions of the Prophet), and even in the Old Testament -- but not in the Quran.

Neither male nor female circumcision (M/FGM) are found in the Quran. Again, however, both are mentioned in the hadith. When Aslan discussed FGM, he neglected to mention that of the four Sunni schools of jurisprudence, the Shafi'i school makes FGM mandatory based on these hadith, and the other three schools recommend it. This is why Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, mostly Shafi'i, where Aslan said women were "absolutely 100% equal" to men, has an FGM prevalence of at least 86%, with over 90% of families supporting the practice. And the world's largest Arab Muslim country, Egypt, has an FGM prevalence of over 90%. So yes, both male and female genital cutting pre-date Islam. But it is inaccurate to say that they have no connection whatever to the religion.

***

That is the kind of information I could never reliably access growing up. But with the Internet came exposure.

Suddenly, every 12-year-old kid could search multiple translations of the Quran by topic, in dozens of languages. Nothing was hidden. It was all right there to see. When Lee Rigby's murderer cited Surah At-Tawbah to justify his actions, we could go online and see exactly what he was talking about. When ISIS claims divine sanction for its actions by citing verse 33 from Surah Al-Maaidah or verse 4 from Surah Muhammad, we can look it up for ourselves and connect the dots.

Needless to say, this is a pretty serious problem, one that you must address. When people see moderates insisting that Islam is peaceful while also defending these verses and claiming they're misunderstood, it appears inconsistent. When they read these passages and see fundamentalists carrying out exactly what they say, it appears consistent. That's scary. You should try to understand it. Loudly shouting "Racist!" over the voices of critics, as Ben Affleck did over Maher and Sam Harris last week, isn't going to make it go away.

(Also, if you think criticizing Islam is racist, you're saying that all of Islam is one particular race. There's a word for that.)

Yes, it's wrong and unfair for anyone to judge a religion by the actions of its followers, be they progressive Muslims or al Qaeda. But it is appropriate and intellectually honest to judge it by the contents of its canonical texts -- texts that are now accessible online to anyone and everyone at the tap of a finger.

Today, you need to do better when you address the legitimate questions people have about your beliefs and your holy book. Brushing off everything that is false or disturbing as "metaphor" or "misinterpretation" just isn't going to cut it. Neither is dismissing the questioner as a bigot.

How, then, to respond?

***

For starters, it might help to read not only the Quran, but the other Abrahamic texts. When you do, you'll see that the Old Testament has just as much violence, if not more, than the Quran. Stoning blasphemers, stoning fornicators, killing homosexuals -- it's all in there. When you get about ten verses deep into Deuteronomy 20, you may even swear you're reading a rulebook for ISIS.

You may find yourself asking, how is this possible? The book of the Jews is not much different from my book. How, then, are the majority of them secular? How is it that most don't take too seriously the words of the Torah/Old Testament -- originally believed to be the actual word of God revealed to Moses much like the Quran to Muhammad -- yet still retain strong Jewish identities? Can this happen with Islam and Muslims?

Clearly from the above, the answer is a tried-and-tested yes. And it must start by dissociating Islamic identity from Muslim identity -- by coming together on a sense of community, not ideology.

Finding consensus on ideology is impossible. The sectarian violence that continues to plague the Muslim world, and has killed more Muslims than any foreign army, is blatant evidence for this. But coming together on a sense of community is what moves any society forward. Look at other Abrahamic religions that underwent reformations. You know well that Judaism and Christianity had their own violence-ridden dark ages; you mention it every chance you get nowadays, and you're right. But how did they get past that?

Well, as much as the Pope opposes birth control, abortion and premarital sex, most Catholics today are openly pro-choice, practice birth control, and fornicate to their hearts' content. Most Jews are secular, and many even identify as atheists or agnostics while retaining the Jewish label. The dissidents and the heretics in these communities may get some flak here and there, but they aren't getting killed for dissenting.

This is in stark contrast to the Muslim world where, according to a worldwide 2013 Pew Research Study, a majority of people in large Muslim-majority countries like Egypt and Pakistan believe that those who leave the faith must die. They constantly obsess over who is a "real" Muslim and who is not. They are quicker to defend their faith from cartoonists and filmmakers than they are to condemn those committing atrocities in its name. (Note: To their credit, the almost universal, unapologetic opposition against ISIS from Muslims is a welcome development.)

***

The word "moderate" has lost its credibility. Fareed Zakaria has referred to Middle Eastern moderates as a "fantasy." Even apologists like Nathan Lean are pointing out that the use of this word isn't helping anyone.

Islam needs reformers, not moderates. And words like "reform" just don't go very well with words like "infallibility."

The purpose of reform is to change things, fix the system, and move it in a new direction. And to fix something, you have to acknowledge that it's broken -- not that it looks broken, or is being falsely portrayed as broken by the wrong people -- but that it's broken. That is your first step to reformation.

If this sounds too radical, think back to the Prophet Muhammad himself, who was chased out of Mecca for being a radical dissident fighting the Quraysh. Think of why Jesus Christ was crucified. These men didn't capitulate or shy away from challenging even the most sacred foundations of the status quo.

These men certainly weren't "moderates." They were radicals. Rebels. Reformers. That's how change happens. All revolutions start out as rebellions. Islam itself started this way. Openly challenging problematic ideas isn't bigotry, and it isn't blasphemy. If anything, it's Sunnah.

Get out there, and take it back.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

Offline Magix

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #232 on: November 15, 2015, 01:38:04 pm »
I think we need to target the radical imams and clerics who basically act as the recruitment arm of the terror groups, the ones who make Islam out to be this glorious death cult. Undermine their shitty ideology.

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #233 on: November 15, 2015, 01:47:49 pm »
This community you describe has no relevance to the "muslim" community, Muslims don't live in a particular area, they don't share the same language, culture, tradition, history.  You  don't ask someone in the usa to do more about Russian atrocities because they both happen to be Christian.
Well, that wasn't your argument, you said theres no such a thing as any community to back up your argument that there wasn't a Muslim community.
We are arguing semantics here. a community, a social gathering. call it what you want. people with the same beliefs and pastimes will have reason to mix more.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #234 on: November 15, 2015, 02:05:41 pm »
Well, that wasn't your argument, you said theres no such a thing as any community to back up your argument that there wasn't a Muslim community.
We are arguing semantics here. a community, a social gathering. call it what you want. people with the same beliefs and pastimes will have reason to mix more.

I only meant it in the context where I keep hearing that the Muslim community should do more, when there is no specific entity as the Muslim community.

Offline Packalacky

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #235 on: November 15, 2015, 02:29:46 pm »
To add some context to this discussion, the French guy who blew himself up was known to the security services. He was categorized as an individual that's been "Radicalized", which falls into the group "fiche S".

The numbers of individuals who have the fiche S category in France is: 11,000

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2015/11/14/01016-20151114ARTFIG00226-plus-de-11000-individus-fiches-pour-radicalisation.php

I'll repeat, 11,000 individuals who are registered by the security services as having the same profile as the guy that blew himself up. How do you protect society against that without some form of tracking and imprisonment, which will probably break their human rights?

 

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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #236 on: November 15, 2015, 03:24:04 pm »
This could give us clues on where to start:

Fact Check: How does IS fund its reign of terror?

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fact-check-fund-reign-terror/21908

Follow the fucking money. Then stop the fucking money. 
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #237 on: November 15, 2015, 04:08:19 pm »
As a more light-hearted take on this (Delete if no appropritate please, Mods)

http://newsthump.com/2015/11/15/absolutely-everyone-suddenly-an-expert-on-how-to-defeat-isis/

Absolutely everyone suddenly an expert on how to defeat ISIS


Everyone an expert on how to beat ISIS
Absolutely everyone is suddenly an expert on how to defeat ISIS, according to reports today.

The Islamic State – who really hate being called the Da’esh so you should probably start doing that – have proven an intractable foe for several years, but all of a sudden everyone on the Internet has a solution which has eluded the world’s finest minds to date.

Popular suggestions include bombing the organisation back to the Stone Age, which unfortunately skips the fact much of the Da’esh is already there and actually quite like it.

Similarly popular is to reject unilateral action and insist on a coordinated international response through the UN, which has the advantage of ensuring the moral high ground, tempered only by the disadvantage of there being no chance whatsoever of it actually happening.

ADVERTISING
 

Meanwhile many American commenters insist the only way to avoid terrorist atrocities and mass shootings is to ensure everyone is armed, a strategy that has been working out tremendously well for them at home lately.

“I reject the idea of a complex, messy solution which risks me getting it wrong,” Internet general Simon Williams told us.

“I’d like to see members of the Da’esh arrested and tried but obviously I don’t want to see British troops deployed.”

“The fact that the government has failed to accommodate my contradictory wishes means I win the Internet and they don’t deserve to be in power.”

“So there,” he added, smugly.

One common suggestion is that the world could prevent the deaths of innocents by closing their borders to refugees, a great idea which is only slightly undermined by the fact it would condemn untold numbers of innocents to death.

Any suggestion that defeating the Da’esh will be time-consuming, very expensive, involve grubby compromises and certainly feature people we like dying has been rejected as completely unacceptable.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #238 on: November 15, 2015, 05:57:28 pm »
It'll slow to a trickle when every man and woman in the affected regions can wake up and look forward to a day of peaceful, useful in improving their circumstances, work. Fundamentally, the why can be understood. How you go about it though, seeing the myriad factors striving for dominance - individual dictators, political, religious, economic, foreign powers - to reach a situation where those areas can have peace and then build....I don't see it. Not within my life time, not within the next generation, or even the one after that. As such, the terrorists will remain, unabated imo.

What is clear, is that this incident will look like a mere appetizer if Hollande tries to play the big I am card. Isis as a empire builder can be sorted out by the military of a minor nation, that isn't the issue, their ability to subvert culture and work from the shadows is. Real change will come if France stops treating her Tunisian / Moroccan / African immigrants and their sons / daughters like shit, as 2nd class citizens. That's where the fight is. I've seen a bit of the world and that one theme keeps repeating itself, it's amazing how thick countries can be, when through their legislation and their processes they treat a section of their people like utter donkeys, and then become surprised when dissatisfaction and rage rears its head, it's not just France or the more prominent examples, the Muslim majority countries are famous for that too.

Great post . Best posted on here by a long way today.
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Re: A sensible debate about tackling terrorism
« Reply #239 on: November 15, 2015, 07:15:13 pm »
This could give us clues on where to start:

Fact Check: How does IS fund its reign of terror?

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fact-check-fund-reign-terror/21908

Follow the fucking money. Then stop the fucking money. 
Exactly. Stop the money and they cant operate.

Also if you want to stop refugees coming in, simple way you do it is make where they live safer. You make it safer by taking control of it. It will take an invasion, it needs someone to go in there and occupy and police the area. Problem being any such force will attacked, lives will be lost. It will be expensive, it will cost lives, time and money. No one wants to spend it though.

Since no one is prepared to go and do that, you have to put up with masses of people fleeing to the safety of the west.
Its all very well to point the finger and say the local nations aren't doing more for refugees, aren't taking more in. Thing is though the refugees aren't fleeing there, because its not much better than ISIS. Its the same c*nts under a different flag really.

I'd actually favour a more direct message of if you fuckers don't sort it out we are going to bomb you. Saudi backed militants attack and bomb us, well we are going to fucking bomb Saudi Arabia. But that's overly simplistic emotional and unrealistic reaction.

The western powers need to put pressure on the middle east nations to sort it out, its their neighbourhood, but they are happy to let the west deal with it. They need to invade, occupy and police the area. Need to put financial pressure on them, along with the threat of trade sanctions and ceasing of military aid if they don't start dealing with it.

The western nations don't go expecting middle east countries to deal with their problems, but they expect it from the west, bollocks they need to do it themselves.
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