Topic: Liverpool 0 - Real Madrid 3 FT

[Monsieur]

Oh...owned by a quality team?
We've been owned by some 'lowly' premier league sides these past few weeks too

[rickardinho1]

I think not. If anything it should be the other way round, a free is a free, a corner is a corner...that is not a new aspect of the game in a competitive match. That is drilled into every young player as soon as they lace up their size 5 boots. We cannot take corners, we cannot make free kicks an advantage because they are always the same kick in towards our centre backs despite their inability to head on goal. If a corner beats the first defender the goalie catches it, if it beats the goalie it goes out for a goal kick...it's been that way for years, with or without more games a week.

Notable for this and to a certain extent last season the dreaded topic of rotation has not been such an issue, injuries and all accepted but we practically bought a new team last Summer.

We bought talented footballers with all having pretty decent previous, an extra few days less of training should not be the the reason they cannot perform or at least try to show what they can do.

Inadvertibely that leaves us with another problem, if it's not the talented players we all know and sometimes love, where are the constant mistakes coming from?

Personally, this is just me, tonight was a tactical disaster. Balotelli was more on the wings trying to cross to Sterling, every Madrid defender had Sterling sussed. Coutinho had our best attempt running from deep through the middle, Gerrards' shot pretty much the same....can anyone tell me why Sterling was in the middle for most of the game?

Is there anyone on Earth that can explain our inability to take corners?

Rant over, at least as in Basel and soon Madrid I will have the possibilty to scream and shout at the team personally.

On the subject of set-pieces, I do think that there was a direct correlation last season between the amount of set-pieces goals we scored and time on the training pitch. I say this for two reasons:

1.
Many of the goals we scored from corners were a result of meticulously planned and timed runs in the box. Off the top of my head there are these examples:
- Skrtel's 2nd against Arsenal, where two players run from the penalty spot to the front post, and 2 block the defenders on the edge of the 6yard box, creating the space for Skrtel to head from
- Allen's goal at Palace, and Coutinho's goal at Goodison, both of which resulted from timed runs to the front-post, and looping runs from the front-post around everyone to the open area at the back-post. Note that they were the shortest players on the pitch attacking the corners, yet still scored against teams with excellent defensive records on set-pieces. That they scored wasn't by accident, but pre-planned since BR knew they would be the ones left unmarked and in space if we could engineer the space.
- Skrtel's goal against City, where everyone pinned their men, including Skrtel pinning Kompany, to allow Skrtel to dart infront of Kompany for a near post header.
- Suarez's goal against Norwich, where I think there was a flick on (or duck) at the front post by Gerrard iirc, while the space was vacated for Suarez behind that

The more you analyze our corner goals from last season the more they look like planned events rather than sporadic percentage goals from just "throwing it in the mixer".

2. I haven't seen as many clear routines so far this season (at least those that i remember), except perhaps one against QPR where Gerrard and Lallana worked it short and ended with Lallana getting a shot off from the left side of the box that was blocked. For the most part our corners have seemed like the standard "lump it at the front-post and see what happens", without any of the more complex patterns of movement we saw last year.

[Red Genius]

I don't think Agger would've made the slightest bit of difference. In fact I don't think it would've mattered if we'd had Bentia and Hummels as our CB pairing last night. We still would've of been a shambles. For me it's the defensive coaching or lack of that's the problem now.

Totally agree, Rodgers confirmed as much in the pre game presso.... spoke about giving them problems,Rafa stuck Arbs at left back and Masch on a mission to nullify Messi's threat when we played Barca all them years back, we're naive.... there are times when we need to be tactically more astute than just 'going for it' 

And defensively we need a right kick up the arse in that respect.

[rickardinho1]

we were schooled pure and simple, the bigger more worrying question for me is after the all millions over the summer. why is it we've still only got 2 players (the cout and raheem) that would even get in their squad let alone 1st team?

Our team is only in its infancy in terms of being built to be a top European team. In contrast the Madrid team has been built over a 5+ year period, and has been fine-tuned year-on-year after 3 Semi's and then CL win in 4 years with in-their-prime world class players to produce the finished article.

Give it another couple of years for our players to get to mature and I'm sure we'll be a proper force to be reckoned with. Its easy to forget the age difference between Moreno, Markovic, Can, Sterling, Coutinho, etc, compared to some of their players... With exception to Isco(22), Varane(21) and Kroos(24) the rest of their squad have been around the block a few times and are all extremely experienced in the CL - not least the manager!

[nijartovino]

I am not blaming anyone or any team. However, it is just a fact. The fact is Real Madrid is much more wealthier than Liverpool.

It is not only about transfer fee spent in the transfer market. It is the wages that matter here.

Although we sometimes paying premium in buying players, we target to buy some promising/rising star who has a lower wage demand. We sell some of our squad rotation players in a low price to save our wages. We do this as we need to maintain a healthy wages system as no one will come and buy our training ground to save us if we are our financial crisis.

About the wages, yes, you are probably right. I think that maybe sometimes is better to risk in 3 or 4 top players instead 5 average players+ 5 promising. About supporting the players/manager doesnīt matter what...I canīt agree, probably is just a question of football culture in spain/italy and england/germany, I guess that is a good part in british football that we admire but we are not able to copy, fans are very noble, with class,faithful...but football has changed a lot and I see many old fashion fans here. Now players donīt stay in the club all the career, they want to be sold to get a better contract, Adidas/Nike decide many transfers, even here the games start sometimes 4pm, after lunch to sell to China...all this provokes more urgency in all the decision.

[Solomon Grundy]

Totally agree, Rodgers confirmed as much in the pre game presso.... spoke about giving them problems,Rafa stuck Arbs at left back and Masch on a mission to nullify Messi's threat when we played Barca all them years back, we're naive.... there are times when we need to be tactically more astute than just 'going for it' 

And defensively we need a right kick up the arse in that respect.

I love Brendan Rodgers as our manager, but the defensive side of his coaching needs to improve big time, because it could cost him his job in the long run. And the last thing I want is for us to start chopping and changing managers again. I'm desperate for him to sort it out.

[chrishughes]

A couple of points.

1) I'm not sure if we need a defensive coach or a new philosophy to defending. IMO we defend far too deep and invite teams onto us. Its also dragging our midfield back and slowing our attacks. We simply have no speed in our attack.

2) I'm not blaming Mario but his contribution and committment can be summed up in two separate incidents. The first one was at 1:30 where instead of playing Raheem in, he opted to dribble and was dispossed. The second one was where he had the right flank completely open but didn't want to put the effort to dribble with the ball. Eventually he did after the crowd urged him to.

3) if we can't beat Basel at home and Ludogorets away we don't deserve to be in this competition. End of.

[Red Genius]

I love Brendan Rodgers as our manager, but the defensive side of his coaching needs to improve big time, because it could cost him his job in the long run. And the last thing I want is for us to start chopping and changing managers again. I'm desperate for him to sort it out.

Reminds me so much of the Yernited team of the 90's, able to trounce domestically, but fail miserably in the European ties... he's a bloke who's still learning his trade, what's this, his third game in the European Cup? it's to be expected... but it's an obvious issue both home and abroad.. we need to understand where he is in his own learning curve and not not expect too much, however for a sharp fella, he really needs to pick up on the fact that area (defence) needs some tactical attention, it's not like its an anomaly, it's a situation we've been aware of for over 12 months.

[Armless Joe Gambino]

On the subject of set-pieces, I do think that there was a direct correlation last season between the amount of set-pieces goals we scored and time on the training pitch. I say this for two reasons:

1.
Many of the goals we scored from corners were a result of meticulously planned and timed runs in the box. Off the top of my head there are these examples:
- Skrtel's 2nd against Arsenal, where two players run from the penalty spot to the front post, and 2 block the defenders on the edge of the 6yard box, creating the space for Skrtel to head from
- Allen's goal at Palace, and Coutinho's goal at Goodison, both of which resulted from timed runs to the front-post, and looping runs from the front-post around everyone to the open area at the back-post. Note that they were the shortest players on the pitch attacking the corners, yet still scored against teams with excellent defensive records on set-pieces. That they scored wasn't by accident, but pre-planned since BR knew they would be the ones left unmarked and in space if we could engineer the space.
- Skrtel's goal against City, where everyone pinned their men, including Skrtel pinning Kompany, to allow Skrtel to dart infront of Kompany for a near post header.
- Suarez's goal against Norwich, where I think there was a flick on (or duck) at the front post by Gerrard iirc, while the space was vacated for Suarez behind that

The more you analyze our corner goals from last season the more they look like planned events rather than sporadic percentage goals from just "throwing it in the mixer".

2. I haven't seen as many clear routines so far this season (at least those that i remember), except perhaps one against QPR where Gerrard and Lallana worked it short and ended with Lallana getting a shot off from the left side of the box that was blocked. For the most part our corners have seemed like the standard "lump it at the front-post and see what happens", without any of the more complex patterns of movement we saw last year.

Bakez has already put me right concerning last season....sad really how all the good memories fade quicker than the bad ones. Anyway I still cannot agree with your reasoning that with more games our setpieces should suffer due to less training. We are talking about professional footballers here, their job is to perform on the pitch when playing.

We also had the advantage of a certain number seven scaring the shit out of all defenders leaving spaces for Skrtel and co to take advantage of.

That still does not explain our current inability to beat the first defender with a corner/cross or free.

[rickardinho1]

Some comments in bold

A couple of points.

1) I'm not sure if we need a defensive coach or a new philosophy to defending. IMO we defend far too deep and invite teams onto us. Its also dragging our midfield back and slowing our attacks. We simply have no speed in our attack.
The way we defend has nothing to do with the attacks.
Currently we don't seem to have a philosophy to defending, since half of them drop deep and half of them step forward. Everyone just does what they want. If BR has spoken about a philosophy that we've been using I'd love to know what it is!
2) I'm not blaming Mario but his contribution and committment can be summed up in two separate incidents. The first one was at 1:30 where instead of playing Raheem in, he opted to dribble and was dispossed. The second one was where he had the right flank completely open but didn't want to put the effort to dribble with the ball. Eventually he did after the crowd urged him to.
He's a player who needs confidence more than anyone else in world football imo. Media, fans, and coaches just need to give him time, while BR works with him on his game. He clearly wants to impress which is why he takes so many shots, but he needs to learn that he can impress more by passing more
3) if we can't beat Basel at home and Ludogorets away we don't deserve to be in this competition. End of.
Spot on. We should be beating those teams in our sleep.

Btw, theoretically, if Basel and Ludogorets draw their next one and we lose, then the group looks like so:

Real 12
Basel 4
Ludo 4
Liv 3

If we beat Basel at home (must win), and Real beat Ludogorets at home (even if they rest players they should win at the Bernabeu), it looks like this:
Real 15
Liv 6
Basel 4
Ludo 4

Meaning that we could potentially only need a draw against Ludogorets to progress, presuming that Basel don't beat Real AND have a better head to head with us.

Even if Basel or Ludogorets don't draw, we'd still have a good chance of progressing with 4 points from the next 3 games, so long as we better the 1-0 result in the return game against Basel, and of course that Real Madrid beat Basel and Ludogorets. We might get something at the Bernabeu but that seems unlikely at this stage.

Long way to go, but that win by Ludogorets against Basel really did do us a little favour I think, as catching Basel on 9 points would have taken it out of our hands if we didn't get something from Real.

[rickardinho1]

Bakez has already put me right concerning last season....sad really how all the good memories fade quicker than the bad ones. Anyway I still cannot agree with your reasoning that with more games our setpieces should suffer due to less training. We are talking about professional footballers here, their job is to perform on the pitch when playing.

We also had the advantage of a certain number seven scaring the shit out of all defenders leaving spaces for Skrtel and co to take advantage of.

That still does not explain our current inability to beat the first defender with a corner/cross or free.

Yes, they are professional footballers, but they are also playing against big strong professional footballers which means that you need to devise cunning plans to get around their very solid defensive set-piece structures. Lesser teams rely on being robust defensively and threatening from set-pieces, making it tough for smaller teams like ours to break them down aerially.

Unless you are a mammoth team like Chelsea with 5-6 giants on the pitch who love headbutting brick walls, you can't just rely on just throwing it in the box and hoping for the best. Most teams (not us) are very well-organized and drilled to defend set-pieces and will clear 90% of corners that don't force them to move out of their structure.

[Czar]

Let's try and replace Carragher too before Suarez.

[plums123]

To everyone freaking out about Balotelli swapping shirts.

Sakho did the same thing in one of his first games.

He will get told he is in the wrong and we move on.  Should never have done it but geez, the hate towards him is maddening.
[/
quote]I think the hate towards him comes from disappointment in ourselves,
we thought that coming to Liverpool with great fans great history would wake this sleeping giant up, but nothing's changed, his attitude still stinks and if anything he has gone lazier and more disinterested and we are annoyed with ourselves for falling for it.

[Armless Joe Gambino]

Basel have a talent at getting results against "bigger" teams at home and a very respectable series of results when playing in England. They were down to ten after 20 minutes last night and missing their talisman Streller...lost in added time.

Real will play their under 12's after our match in the Bernabau if we don't get a result.

[Armless Joe Gambino]

 rickardinho1,

We are basically saying the same thing in a roundabout way 

[plums123]

To everyone freaking out about Balotelli swapping shirts.

Sakho did the same thing in one of his first games.

He will get told he is in the wrong and we move on.  Should never have done it but geez, the hate towards him is maddening.
[/
quote]I think the hate towards him comes from disappointment in ourselves,
we thought that coming to Liverpool with great fans great history would wake this sleeping giant up, but nothing's changed, his attitude still stinks and if anything he has gone lazier and more disinterested and we are annoyed with ourselves for falling for it. Liverpool fans can raise players onto god like pedestals, we can also pull them down back onto the shite heap, guess where Mario's heading.

[sonny crockett]

Top sport story on BBC Breakfast news, Mario swapping shirts. 

[indlfc]

They are the European Cup winners to be fair mate.... and have a warchest able to pay the very best salaries. We're miles off that in terms of being able to compete at that level.... *However* Rafa did a right good job on a shoe string in comparison... and his purchasing was often questioned.

Same old excuse 

[rickardinho1]

Top sport story on BBC Breakfast news, Mario swapping shirts. 

Imagine if it had been Gerrard doing it. Nobody would have given a flying f***!

Absolute nonsense to make such a big deal out of it. Just have Brendan tell him off and leave it at that.

Agenda-driven bollocks at its finest

[Bjinxi]

I don't have a problem with swapping shirts at half time... who cares...
we have far more bigger problems but the media and such want to blame the big name signing...

I have expected more from Carragher to be honest. People need to see the whole team and not a single player... Some others would deserve far more blame than Ballotelli gets...

[Semaphore]

This Mario shirt crap is doing my head in. Pepe already has his shirt off when he walks up to Mario to tap him on the shoulder and ask for his shirt. I think Mario was just being a nice guy and didn't want to be rude.
It's not like Mario went hunting for him... it was the other way around. Aarrgh! It's not even important.

And for the BBC - supposedly the home of credible journalism, they should be setting the standards of journalism - not following the agendas of the idiots.

[jimbo196843]

Was too tired to post when I got in last night but a few observations:

1. Too the fella in the upper Anfield road, turnstile Q block 221 next to us who got off after the third goal have a large word with yourself.
2. Mignolet needs a 'rest' as I think he is a big part of the defensive uncertainty. The 2nd and 3rd goals were unnecessary. He is not strong enough and so should stay on his line more and let the defenders deal with high crosses. He just gets in the way.
3. Balotelli slows the game down and doesn't fit the system of free flowing football with 1 upfront.now he may fit better alongside Sturridge with more space (as v Tottenham) but on his own there is no chance. He also needs to put a shift in.
4. Crowd gave up before the players. Some not even singing before the game. Why go at all??

[TepidT2O]

My goodness.

This is a sewer.

Move on folks move on.  There's a golden sky...

[Ken-Obi]

My goodness.

This is a sewer.

Move on folks move on.  There's a golden sky...

I wonder if we'll be able to keep the aggregates down back at their place in Madrid

[lebowski25]

Some comments in bold 8)Btw, theoretically, if Basel and Ludogorets draw their next one and we lose, then the group looks like so:

Real 12
Basel 4
Ludo 4
Liv 3

If we beat Basel at home (must win), and Real beat Ludogorets at home (even if they rest players they should win at the Bernabeu), it looks like this:
Real 15
Liv 6
Basel 4
Ludo 4

Meaning that we could potentially only need a draw against Ludogorets to progress, presuming that Basel don't beat Real AND have a better head to head with us.

Even if Basel or Ludogorets don't draw, we'd still have a good chance of progressing with 4 points from the next 3 games, so long as we better the 1-0 result in the return game against Basel, and of course that Real Madrid beat Basel and Ludogorets. We might get something at the Bernabeu but that seems unlikely at this stage.

Long way to go, but that win by Ludogorets against Basel really did do us a little favour I think, as catching Basel on 9 points would have taken it out of our hands if we didn't get something from Real.

I think this is right, regardless of real if we better the basle score at home and beat ludogorets away were guaranteed to qualify. Even if basle and ludogorets both beat Madrid it's still in our hands.

[Sat1]

I laugh when people say use lambert. From Suarez to lambert. Then I cry

100 million spent and we're calling on lambert.

[indlfc]

I laugh when people say use lambert. From Suarez to lambert. Then I cry

100 million spent and we're calling on lambert.

Well that's the reality. And we have the manager who made that decision, he will get it working.

[GreatEx]

I laugh when people say use lambert. From Suarez to lambert. Then I cry

100 million spent and we're calling on lambert.

If Sturridge isn't fit for the Bernabeu I say fuck it, let's doa Chelsea and play 7-2-0 or whatever the Jose special is. I know we can't absorb pressure like Chelsea can, but it would certainly be an unexpected move... who knows, it could be Arbeloa at LB Mk.II (except that it won't be).

[redrockydennis]

Balotelli isn't funny anymore

[DutchRed]

Some comments in bold 8)Btw, theoretically, if Basel and Ludogorets draw their next one and we lose, then the group looks like so:

Real 12
Basel 4
Ludo 4
Liv 3

If we beat Basel at home (must win), and Real beat Ludogorets at home (even if they rest players they should win at the Bernabeu), it looks like this:
Real 15
Liv 6
Basel 4
Ludo 4

Meaning that we could potentially only need a draw against Ludogorets to progress, presuming that Basel don't beat Real AND have a better head to head with us.

Even if Basel or Ludogorets don't draw, we'd still have a good chance of progressing with 4 points from the next 3 games, so long as we better the 1-0 result in the return game against Basel, and of course that Real Madrid beat Basel and Ludogorets. We might get something at the Bernabeu but that seems unlikely at this stage.

Long way to go, but that win by Ludogorets against Basel really did do us a little favour I think, as catching Basel on 9 points would have taken it out of our hands if we didn't get something from Real.

Your flaw being that you mixed up the order there: we play against Ludogorets before Basel come to Anfield rather than after.

[cox3100]

My goodness.

This is a sewer.

Move on folks move on.  There's a golden sky...

it's great to be back in the CL but the bread and butter has always been the league,the CL is a bonus which even Rodgers said wasn't supposed to happen for another season,we were playing Real Madrid who are the current holders and a team that looks like they are gonna make the semi finals again for the 4th year running,the performance wasn't the worst I've seen this season,we really need to sort out the sloppy defending(if you can call it defending) and get Sturridge back(and then get another striker in January) and we will be fine,as you say move on.

[flipflan]

Reasons to be cheerful ?   anyone ?

Coutinho and Sterling's inpu, Lallana did really well, Can looks like he could be a boss dm.

Cheerful might be wrong word, we were beaten by a far superior team.

[indlfc]

Balotelli isn't funny anymore

He is. After a point, everyting becomes funny.

[JJ Red]

The result was expected but still dissapointing.

Someone made reference to the Utd team of the mid 90s and there is some credibility to that except of course we don't have the domestic dominance that they had at the time (especially this season). I agree that Rodgers, like 90s Fergie, is more suited with his style to the domestic game and a league program. I like Rodgers alot and again, like Fergie, i think he will slowly learn to play in europe but i think we have to accept that we are now possibly in the exact opposite position we were in with Rafa. You never felt that a Rafa team was going to win the league but you always felt, because of his style and tactical nous, that we always had a chance in the CL.

In fairness it probably isn't exactly opposite because i honestly can't see us doing anything until the defence is sorted. Despite Fergie's attack based strategy he always had solid defenders in place and a great keeper. We don't have either and our defensive tactics are severly lacking. But, with Rodgers, you do feel that we will be more competitive in the league and, while we may progress from the group stages, less so in the CL

[indlfc]

If Sturridge isn't fit for the Bernabeu I say fuck it, let's doa Chelsea and play 7-2-0 or whatever the Jose special is. I know we can't absorb pressure like Chelsea can, but it would certainly be an unexpected move... who knows, it could be Arbeloa at LB Mk.II (except that it won't be).

We don't have the character for it. Plus Chelsea had a goal scoring striker in Drogba, which we don't have at the moment.

[Hazell]

They are the European Cup winners to be fair mate.... and have a warchest able to pay the very best salaries. We're miles off that in terms of being able to compete at that level.... *However* Rafa did a right good job on a shoe string in comparison... and his purchasing was often questioned.

Rodgers is learning, for all his fantastic decisions last year, this is his first year in this competition, we got schooled by the manager we pulled one over in 2005, and then lost to in 2007..... It's now 2014. Let's keep things in perspective. Gerrard has more european games than the rest of the team out there today.... we've a long way to go before we get back to those sunny days.

Yeah. I'm surprised about some of the overt negativity concerning the match. Ok, we lost comprehensively and that's always galling but I don't think anyone was under any illusions as to the quality of Real Madrid. They're an awesome team and we've got some way to go before we reach their level. It hasn't changed anything we didn't know about the team and already and yet I thought we still did better than on Sunday in a lot of respects. Roma were annihilated by Bayern Munch on Tuesday but I'm sure no one feels that they're an awful side or that their season's over. We need to get better, we all know that and losing to the one of the best teams in the world isn't really a massive dent in our season.

[shockwave_dave]

To everyone freaking out about Balotelli swapping shirts.

Sakho did the same thing in one of his first games.

He will get told he is in the wrong and we move on.  Should never have done it but geez, the hate towards him is maddening.

I don't think many have a massive issue with the shirt swapping.

It's more to do with how awful he is up front for us. Genuinely at this minute in time is offering us nothing

[Tom_B]

Yeah. I'm surprised about some of the overt negativity concerning the match. Ok, we lost comprehensively and that's always galling but I don't think anyone was under any illusions as to the quality of Real Madrid. They're an awesome team and we've got some way to go before we reach their level. It hasn't changed anything we didn't know about the team and already and yet I thought we still did better than on Sunday in a lot of respects. Roma were annihilated by Bayern Munch on Tuesday but I'm sure no one feels that they're an awful side or that their season's over. We need to get better, we all know that and losing to the one of the best teams in the world isn't really a massive dent in our season.

I agree with this. For me the problem isn't being outplayed by Madrid, they were sensational to be honest, it's the fact that we made basic defensive mistakes yet again.

Make no mistake though, had we played as we did last night against pretty much 90% of Premier League teams, we would have won.

[Working Class Hen-Pecked Hero]

We looked a bit shit at times, but the first two goals there's a handful of players in the world who score them. People going on like Jamie Vardy and the like will score them against us every week. The set piece one is an issue as ever, it seems we have no luck in that respects though, the ball always seems to end up bouncing around in our box for some reason. After that we attacked when we could, we also then got counter attacked by the best counter attacking team on the planet. I was gutted we lost but people need to be not writing everything off now

[hollger]

I don't think many have a massive issue with the shirt swapping.

It's more to do with how awful he is up front for us. Genuinely at this minute in time is offering us nothing

This I think comes down to more than just Mario. He clearly isn't suited to playing the lone role - he just isn't. Perhaps we're trying to change him and yes, we've seen signs of him adapting somewhat (chasing back, closing down etc) but it will take time to change a player's natural game.

Maybe we should play Sterling up with him. Maybe Gerrard should play off of him now Can seems to be available again after injury and could slot into the CM spot further back. Perhaps we should give Borini some minutes up there with him. I think it's particularly unfair of the fans and especially the media to keep on singling out Balotelli for criticism despite us seemingly not trying to adapt to him a bit and give him some help up top - we can't just expect him to change his game totally over night and slot into our way of playing, we should be helping him.

It's more of a failing on our part to adequately address the departure of Suarez. Perhaps we can get Origi back in January, who knows, but without Sturridge our lack of attacking threat is pretty woeful.