Topic: Liverpool's Defence

[Bruce88]

I'm getting so tired of this shit. Week after week after week.

[Kopenhagen]

It doesn`t matter about personnel. Not one single defender has improved during entire BR`s tenure. Questions need to be ask on BR`s defensive nous and his coaching on that side of the ball.

No it doesn't but you have to admit Lovren is a poor player.

[El Lobo]

I don't think I've actively disliked a Liverpool player as much as Lovren. Worst centre back I've seen play for us since following in 99. I'd flog him off for free in January.

He really is rank isn't he?

[LiamG]

i'll chip in for petrol money for someone to drive lovren back to southampton?

[Kopenhagen]

Spot on, was thinking about that as i saw the replay. Of course moreno and lallana are overrun too easily, but the space in behind these two was just baffling. As a cb its your job to cover the wingbacks as. He didnt even attempt to cover it, in fact he moved into the middle and left much more space for vslencia. This suggests to me he has no idea where to stand. The clearance for the third was just as bad. How can you clear a ball directly in front of goal this way. Selling agger for peanuts and bringing in lovren is probably worse then the carroll signing.

I also think he is a worse buy than Carroll.

We could have just coached Sakho and Skrtel (if the manager is dead set on keeping Skrtel in the team). The idea that we spent £20m on Lovren as an upgrade on Sakho makes me sick.

[RdJRed]

Moreno poor today.  That Spurs goal and the fact that Enrique isn't good enough has contributed to him being one of the names on the fans teamsheets all year.  he's only young and got potential but keeps sleeping and losing his man or making errors. Gives away freekicks every game.  Is he getting the best caoching from BR & his team..?  Who knows...

[downtown]

He really is rank isn't he?

They are STILL laughing at him on Lyon forums. 1.5 years after his departure. They couldn't believe getting 8M for him from the Saints, let alone that sum we paid in Summer (And add the opportunity cost lost of losing Agger/Sakho).

Lovren has cost us more than just 20M. He's cost us Sakho and Agger as well. That's what fucking hurts.

[AndyMuller]

I don't think I've actively disliked a Liverpool player as much as Lovren. Worst centre back I've seen play for us since following in 99. I'd flog him off for free in January.

I can't stand him anymore. He came talking with so much confidence in himself and now he is an absolute shambles.

[Yiannis]

Don't know what has Lovren done to deserve a starting place in the line up again. Must have been tremendous in training or Brendan is fixated with him.

Bottom line is he doesn't deserve to start. What's that? His 6 defensive error so far?

[tyrolean_red]

I also think he is a worse buy than Carroll.

We could have just coached Sakho and Skrtel (if the manager is dead set on keeping Skrtel in the team). The idea that we spent £20m on Lovren as an upgrade on Sakho makes me sick.

The idea of upgrading on sakho after very little playing time is insane in itself.

[Mr_Morosoph]

Told you all Lovren was our worst ever signing.

[SerbianScouser]

No it doesn't but you have to admit Lovren is a poor player.

Problem is we are extracting nowhere near the best level our defenders can play at. And that is solely down to Rodgers. Our defenders don`t stand a chance, look at our shape for their 3rd goal, there is not a hint of compactness there, Rodgers can`t allow that to happen. We concede 1.25 goals per game during the entire BR`s tenure, that means we have to score 2 goals each game to win it.

Our whole defensive concept is flawed, we press high up the pitch and our CBs are deep in our own half. It`s not gonna work in a million years. It`s no wonder Lovren and Moreno are dramatically regressing under Rodgers. It`s a huge question now if Rodgers can ever be up to making us solid defensively while we play expansive football.

[Red Genius]

He's not shown any signs that he is or could develop into a good centre back for us. I know it's after yet another abject performance, and here might be notions of knee jerking.... but i'd entertain any offers for Lovren in January, it's not like he's had one or two poor games, i can't recall one decent solid game he's actually had, there's been mistakes in every performance - that's not so much form, but inherent ability.

I think the reality is, he's simply just not good enough for us.

[KiNki]

should just rename this the the lovren bashing thread filled with c*nts.

[soxfan]

On the plus side, kiNki has been kind enough to allow this thread to reopen.  On the downside, he's got my nuts in a vise and is threatening to crush them if any of you annoy the mods in even the slightest way. Which basically means I'm doomed. So be gentle and let's keep the thread open. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alright, I'd like to start a discussion about the relative merits of a back four vs. a back three given our current personnel. My preference would be to see a back four of the two Spaniards, Lovren and Sakho.

Despite the misgivings of many about Lovren, he does seem to be pretty good with the ball on the deck. When he recovers, I think he will eventually settle in and be at least a bit better in performance.

Mamadou for me is an absolute must in any formation. I was looking at the video summary of his Boxing Day work and thought it was excellent overall.

Our young fullback transfers have been a mixed bag, I'll grant you, but I think both have tremendous potential and we need to see what they can do. I'd like to give them both an extended run.

If we are to drop one of the young Spanish boys, I'd rather see Enrique than Johnson. The latter's upside is better on a given day, but for me Enrique gives you a more predictable steady game. Johnson can be very up and down and is prone to defensive gaffes.

That leaves Skrtel and Toure, plus Flanagan. Three solid backups. I have no problem with any of them in that role. Our problem is that we need four defenders (in particular Sakho and Lovren) to start giving week in week out top notch work. With it, we'll get top 4 IMO. Without it, we're in deep trouble.

Thoughts? KEEP IT CIVIL WITH NO NASTY ATTACKS ON INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS OR THIS WILL GET LOCKED AGAIN!

[farawayred]

Your balls in the vice ready to be crushed? Hmmm... let's see...   

Playing with three at the back gives all of the CBs more opportunities. I'd pink Sakho on the right, Skrtel in the middle and Can on the left. Yeah, I know, one game and all that... But he seemed solid to me and more assured than Kolo. I'd also think that Kolo and Lovren would be versatile backups, but I can't see any one of them displacing Skrtel, and I think that's where our Achilles heel is.

[The Infamous_LFC]

It doesn`t matter about personnel. Not one single defender has improved during entire BR`s tenure. Questions need to be ask on BR`s defensive nous and his coaching on that side of the ball.

Can see Rodgers being the same

[Kopenhagen]

should just rename this the the lovren bashing thread filled with c*nts.

  On this day, I was quite angry.

If Can plays CB tomorrow for a full 90, then that's exciting.

Can see Rodgers being the same

You mean not having a clue about defensive positioning?

[The Infamous_LFC]

You mean not having a clue about defensive positioning?

No clue on defensive positioning,structure or tactics really.

[Anywhichwayicant]

Told you all Lovren was our worst ever signing.

I said it before he even signed.

[Kopenhagen]

No clue on defensive positioning,structure or tactics really.

Hmm. It'd make sense, kind of. For example, Lovren's defensive instructions seem to be "go on, take care of it, be boss, lad." It doesn't work, yet Rodgers persisted. It's a bit extreme, and I'm not sure I completely buy it, though. I think the problem is mostly a mix of keeping individuals who don't fit the "system" onside, general myopia, behind-closed-door politics, and bullishness

[Kopenhagen]

I said it before he even signed.

You didn't say worst ever. 

[farawayred]

Told you all Lovren was our worst ever signing.

I said it before he even signed.

You didn't say worst ever. 

Hmmm... Someone's nuts are in the vice...

...snip... (or should I say "crush")
On the downside, he's got my nuts in a vise and is threatening to crush them if any of you annoy the mods in even the slightest way. Which basically means I'm doomed. So be gentle and let's keep the thread open. 

...snip...

Thoughts? KEEP IT CIVIL WITH NO NASTY ATTACKS ON INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS OR THIS WILL GET LOCKED AGAIN!

Run, soxfan, run...

[Anywhichwayicant]

You didn't say worst ever. 

I certainly said he'll be our worst ever

[mrantarctica]

The personnel we have are no worse players than at many other clubs - we've conceded just as many as the clubs around us. Swansea and Southampton have conceded less but you could argue our defenders are no worse than theirs individually.

Our problems are tactical, a lack of focus, and a lack of teamwork when it comes to defending. We defend 2-3 players at a time rather than the entire team working its socks off to defend. The key feature of all the best teams is how hard they work to get the ball back. This doesn't necessarily mean length of the field sprinting - it can be as simple as being the first to loose ball, looking to shepherd the ball into areas where it's hard to score from, having the right tactical shape to be able to crowd a team looking to dwell on the ball, the effective coverage of space.

When you look at the individuals, our players are reasonably good in the air, strong in the tackle, risk averse and relatively disciplined. You could argue that were a bit slow and lack some physicality but overall with the right coaching we certainly have the players to be very miserly. Brendan doesn't set his teams up to defend well so we'll always look shady. It's only noticeable this season because we aren't scoring many at the other end and results aren't going our way. weve actually conceded a similar number of goals last season I think.

[GeorgiaRed]

We need Sami Hypia back as a coach and then BR can pick his brain about central defenders. There is no "steel" in the team and every team needs a balance of flair and steel. Too many central defenders that are good with the ball struggle with being bullied by physical forwards (Agger comes to mind for me - very good with the ball, but struggled when put up against a bully) I don't recall Sami losing out too often to physical forwards.

BR needs to come up with a blend that will take the best of the Spanish/Dutch philosophy that he so loves and combine it with the physicality of the English game. If he isn't able to do that then the best that we can hope for is that we end up with some very stronger attackers and are able to out score most teams to challenge for the title most years, but we will continue to be fragile in the back.  It will be interesting to see if he is able to pull it off.

(Of topic - forgive me for that, but I think it is relevant) Last year was an anomaly. As many on here have stated SAS papered over the cracks in the overall squad. This year was about bringing in depth, which I have been impressed with the youngsters that have been brought in as we are deeper than last year. All of them have shined at certain times of the season and all have had some real stinkers. They just need time to develop.  Losing Danny for as long as we have had to endure has been rough. Mario is a player who is a quality side kick to the main man, but not the main man. Once he has someone like Danny back I think Mario will start scoring goals again.  This is a work in progress and I don't expect much. If we ever made a CL position at the end of the season I think that would be glorious accomplishment for this group and how steep the learning curve has been. Next year will be much better. So yes, my glass is half full.   

[soxfan]

Hmmm... Someone's nuts are in the vice...

Run, soxfan, run...

Do you have a secret room in your house that I can hide in? Looks like I'll need it. 

Back to the topic...do you folks think we are better off persisting with 3 at the back or 4, at least until Sturridge returns?

[McSquared]

I would like to see what Can and Sakho are like as a CB partnership.

[the_red_pill]

Can see Rodgers being the same

Hmm. It'd make sense, kind of. For example, Lovren's defensive instructions seem to be "go on, take care of it, be boss, lad." It doesn't work, yet Rodgers persisted. It's a bit extreme, and I'm not sure I completely buy it, though. I think the problem is mostly a mix of keeping individuals who don't fit the "system" onside, general myopia, behind-closed-door politics, and bullishness

Rodgers was a defender though, Arsene was an attacker. He would know how a defense is supposed to operate, organized and where every man needs to be. AND that's what is puzzling.

He did only play until 20 though.

[slw614]

It doesn`t matter about personnel. Not one single defender has improved during entire BR`s tenure. Questions need to be ask on BR`s defensive nous and his coaching on that side of the ball.

Agreed.

[ShayGuevara]

The great Liverpool teams were always built on a strong and sound defence and excellent counter-attacking. Even for all its attacking prowess, the 87/88 side had the best defensive record in the league. It's extremely worrying that after three seasons in the position, BR still hasn't worked that one out.

For us to not have improved at all at the back in 3 seasons it's extremely worrying. I like Brendan as our coach, I enjoy the football but for me its too direct and we don't have to protection in front of the back 4 to keep trying to force the play.

By the end of this season or the start of next we'l be smashing in 2+ goals every game I'm confident of that but at the back I've lost all confidence we'll ever tighten up.

[SMASHerano]

Imagine if Rodgers brings Lovren straight back into the team for Sakho when he's fit again...

[slw614]

I still don't think Lovren is the problem. He is a really class centre-back; just not for us. The problem lies deeper than that and unfortunately with the manager and coaching staff.

[Hank Scorpio]

Sometimes you have to take what ex-players say with a dollop of salt.

While defence may not be Wenger/Rodgers strength to suggest they don't know about positioning/organisation is ridiculous. 

[Hank Scorpio]

Imagine if Rodgers brings Lovren straight back into the team for Sakho when he's fit again...

Haven't seen the game against Burnley.  How did Sakho do?

[Harinder]

I still don't think Lovren is the problem. He is a really class centre-back; just not for us. The problem lies deeper than that and unfortunately with the manager and coaching staff.

Everything is the manager's fault. Directly/indirectly this is the only drum you've been banging

Change the tune please. If this is not possible for you let me know

[SMASHerano]

Haven't seen the game against Burnley.  How did Sakho do?

Our man of the match in my opinion.

[slw614]

Everything is the manager's fault. Directly/indirectly this is the only drum you've been banging

Change the tune please. If this is not possible for you let me know

Sorry if it seems like that but I do rate Lovren. Just not in a Liverpool shirt. And before he came to us, so did practically everyone on here. So since joining us, something has gone wrong for him. He has been poor but uncharacteristically so. So where else should I look other than the tactics or training, which falls under the remit of the manager!?

[Hank Scorpio]

Everything is the manager's fault. Directly/indirectly this is the only drum you've been banging

Change the tune please. If this is not possible for you let me know

While I don't agree that there is a problem with the manager/coaching, I don't think we will/can significantly improve on the current set of centre halves.  Both Sakho and Lovren are international centre halves and have played top level football for a number of years.  They are not youngsters and will soon be coming into their peak. 

I've recently been thinking the issue may be to do with the instructions we give players, in particular the defenders.  We clearly work on decision making on the ball.  And I think this may be the issue.  The centre halves and GK may be overburdened with information.  There is only so much information somebody can take in and process efficiently.  Maybe we are trying too much.  It's why we see lapses in concentration.  The mental energy expended on the ball may be leading to off the ball mistakes.  There is always a trade-off. 

This may well be a process thing.  It may take the defensive players longer to adjust to Rodgers methods.  Maybe they need 50/75/100 games to adjust.  I don't know.  Personally, the best centre halves under Rodgers have been Carragher (2nd half of 2012/13) and Skrtel (2nd half of 2013/14).  The defenders with the most experience.  In that case we should expect Sakho and Lovren to get better.  Alternatively, Rodgers may need to tweak his methods to achieve better balance.  It may mean we give up a bit of ball circulation for defensive solidity.  But I don't know how much that deviates from the current plan. 

[Hank Scorpio]

People may laugh but the information overload thing may be why we see Mignolet do things like let the ball run out of play and look like a Sunday leaguer.  In his head he's following protocol, possibly something like;

1. Hit early pass, if not available then
2. Delay & wait for shape change
3. Delay as much as possible to create opening
4. Delay should not exceed 7 seconds