Author Topic: Andy Carroll  (Read 54904 times)

Offline Harbinger4

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #640 on: August 16, 2012, 05:30:52 PM »
Do you remember something along the lines of we are going to take our time with Andy we bought him for 5 years not 5 weeks or was it months, as it was he didn't play that badly compared to the whole team did though, all our strikers were crap can you compare his ratio of goals to games with Suarez and dont give me that bollocks that he does more in the game.
It's easy to say that, but I'm sure we were expecting a little more from him after a season and a half than a handful of decent performances and countless poor ones.
Suarez scored 11 goals in the league last season, not the return we were hoping for, but still almost 3x that of Carroll. And how is it bollocks that Suarez offers more apart from his goals?

Quote
I will guarantee that if we sell him and he becomes the player he will become some of you will suffer from a variation of the Lucas Amnesia so prevalent these days when you come in here and moan about selling him.

It's not an inevitable outcome that Carroll will become the best target man in the world, in fact he hasn't shown any signs that he will except for glimpses in a handful of games. Hopefully I'm wrong, we keep him and he scores 20+ goals a season for the next 5 years, but he's shown almost nothing to suggest that will happen.

Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #641 on: August 16, 2012, 05:33:17 PM »
:lmao

How is that bollocks?

As for the goals to games ratio, Carroll scores one every 7 games for us, Suarez scores one every 2.9 games. Think that's just in the league though, couldn't be arsed digging up cup goals, though I'd bet Suarez's goals per game is still considerably better.
Ah, goals to games eh? Couldnt you be bothered doing the goals to minutes played? I wonder why? ::)
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Online kennedy81

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #642 on: August 16, 2012, 05:34:48 PM »

Would Brogger want to buy Lucas or Skrtel ...

you keep sneaking it in, but it ain't gonna fly  ;D
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Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #643 on: August 16, 2012, 05:35:35 PM »
Also 80k a week for a Plan B is not worth it.
It is if plan a aint working. ;)
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #644 on: August 16, 2012, 05:35:35 PM »
Ah, goals to games eh? Couldnt you be bothered doing the goals to minutes played? I wonder why? ::)

Geoff asked for goals to games. Why don't you do the goals per minutes played then mate.

Not sure why were even arguing about this though, Suarez is in a different league to Carroll in terms of ability and his performances on the pitch for us.

Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #645 on: August 16, 2012, 05:39:09 PM »
Geoff asked for goals to games. Why don't you do the goals per minutes played then mate.

Not sure why were even arguing about this though, Suarez is in a different league to Carroll in terms of ability and his performances on the pitch for us.
Im not arguing about Suarez. Ive already stated the goals per minutes played in this thread. 6 PL goals in 2599 mins (by my reckoning). Or 1 goal every 433 minutes. Or 1 goal every 4.8 games.
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Offline Red Eyed

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #646 on: August 16, 2012, 05:40:38 PM »
Isn't that around the time plan B usually kicks in?

 ;D

Offline Harbinger4

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #647 on: August 16, 2012, 05:41:22 PM »
Why am I having to explain this for the third time, are you that lazy that you can't read the topic?

Training, conditioning. Took a while to get the programme right for him. Every body is different you know.

Laughable you'd accuse me of having an agenda when all you're interested in is doing the bloke down.

Okay fine, but I've never heard of a player taking 18 months to get fully fit. Seems like another excuse for his poor performance.
I didn't mean to accuse you of having an agenda, it's just that people will think of almost any excuse for our players rather than be realistic. Carroll's time here has been an enormous let down and I'm not sure how anyone can deny that.

Offline geoffstrong

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #648 on: August 16, 2012, 05:41:38 PM »
It's easy to say that, but I'm sure we were expecting a little more from him after a season and a half than a handful of decent performances and countless poor ones.
Suarez scored 11 goals in the league last season, not the return we were hoping for, but still almost 3x that of Carroll. And how is it bollocks that Suarez offers more apart from his goals?

It's not an inevitable outcome that Carroll will become the best target man in the world, in fact he hasn't shown any signs that he will except for glimpses in a handful of games. Hopefully I'm wrong, we keep him and he scores 20+ goals a season for the next 5 years, but he's shown almost nothing to suggest that will happen.

its bollocks because nobody ever takes into the discussion what andy gives us defending set pieces, or the knock downs nobody reacts to, but his main problem was the money we paid and the fact he was injured people expected far too much too soon and have never forgiven him for that, their mistake really.

As for the second bit show me when i said the best striker in the world read dont exaggerate, it should be obvious to even you that he has the capabilities to become a monster of a player and eventually he will constantly show that, be it here or elsewhere.

 In the end this reminds me so much of the threads that would have had Dirk, Lucas. Skrtel and Agger (who came in for massive abuse a couple of seasons back including suggesting he had a mental illness) gone from here.

 How times change for those one time forum targets.
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Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #649 on: August 16, 2012, 05:43:49 PM »
Okay fine, but I've never heard of a player taking 18 months to get fully fit. Seems like another excuse for his poor performance.
I didn't mean to accuse you of having an agenda, it's just that people will think of almost any excuse for our players rather than be realistic. Carroll's time here has been an enormous let down and I'm not sure how anyone can deny that.
On the whole it has, but can you honestly tell me you weren't encouraged by his performances towards the end of the season? He looked a different player. Fitter, leaner, and more confident.

Did you watch the league game against Chelsea?
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Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #650 on: August 16, 2012, 05:46:44 PM »
Im not arguing about Suarez. Ive already stated the goals per minutes played in this thread. 6 PL goals in 2599 mins (by my reckoning). Or 1 goal every 433 minutes. Or 1 goal every 4.8 games.

Am I supposed to think that's good?

Really sorry for misrepresenting Carroll's performances there mate.

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #651 on: August 16, 2012, 05:49:00 PM »
its bollocks because nobody ever takes into the discussion what andy gives us defending set pieces, or the knock downs nobody reacts to, but his main problem was the money we paid and the fact he was injured people expected far too much too soon and have never forgiven him for that, their mistake really.

Are you really, really comparing those knock downs (which you've said go to nobody) or his defending of set pieces to what Suarez gives us?

It's not bollocks at all, because Suarez provides far far more for us, both in terms of his overall game and his goalscoring (which he also needs to improve on).

Offline falkirk_red

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #652 on: August 16, 2012, 05:54:31 PM »
 :lmao
NOTHING INTERESTING TO SAY HERE AT ALL!

Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #653 on: August 16, 2012, 05:55:15 PM »
Am I supposed to think that's good?

Really sorry for misrepresenting Carroll's performances there mate.
No, but its better than plucking figures from your arse, no?
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #654 on: August 16, 2012, 05:59:12 PM »
No, but its better than plucking figures from your arse, no?

Hardly plucked from my arse were they.

Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #655 on: August 16, 2012, 06:00:27 PM »
Hardly plucked from my arse were they.
May as well have been for their worth.
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Offline Harbinger4

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #656 on: August 16, 2012, 06:02:48 PM »
its bollocks because nobody ever takes into the discussion what andy gives us defending set pieces, or the knock downs nobody reacts to, but his main problem was the money we paid and the fact he was injured people expected far too much too soon and have never forgiven him for that, their mistake really.

As for the second bit show me when i said the best striker in the world read dont exaggerate, it should be obvious to even you that he has the capabilities to become a monster of a player and eventually he will constantly show that, be it here or elsewhere.

 In the end this reminds me so much of the threads that would have had Dirk, Lucas. Skrtel and Agger (who came in for massive abuse a couple of seasons back including suggesting he had a mental illness) gone from here.

 How times change for those one time forum targets.

I don't want to get too carried away with this thread, I'm probably coming across like I only registered to bash Carroll.

For me, the least of an attackers duties is defending, it's nice that Andy can help us out, but I don't see it as a hugely important thing. And it's good that he wins a lot in the air, but without him on the pitch we wouldn't be resorting to the long balls as much in the first place.
I agree the reason people are so critical is his price tag, but it's also the reason some defend him no matter how he plays. If he cost £3.5m he wouldn't have gotten half the abuse or half the support in my opinion.

I'm not so sure he can become a monster of a player, he's got no pace, acceleration, agility, a poor touch, questionable work rate, his positioning isn't great. He is the best header of a ball in the league, and he has a sweet left foot, but apart from that I can't see many positives.

If he does end up becoming a great player then I'll happily accept I was wrong, but for every Lucas, Kuyt and Skrtel, who had their critics and proved them wrong, there's a Keane, Dossena, Babel, Ngog type player who never did. 

On the whole it has, but can you honestly tell me you weren't encouraged by his performances towards the end of the season? He looked a different player. Fitter, leaner, and more confident.

Did you watch the league game against Chelsea?


I agree, he looked a lot better for a few games towards the end of the season, pretty much after his embarrassment against Newcastle, but I think his performances are getting blown out of proportion a bit, it seems like all he had to do was win a few headers and complete a few passes and he'd had a great game.

Problem is there's no middle ground with Carroll so arguments on both sides get exaggerated, he's either a future world beater or shit.

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #657 on: August 16, 2012, 06:05:23 PM »
May as well have been for their worth.

Because goals per game is an irrelevant statistic.

Your stats proved the exact opposite of my point as well didn't they?

Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #658 on: August 16, 2012, 06:08:26 PM »
Because goals per game is an irrelevant statistic.

Your stats proved the exact opposite of my point as well didn't they?
As opposed to goals for actual minutes played? Yes.
My stats showed that yours were misleading, no?
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #659 on: August 16, 2012, 06:11:20 PM »
As opposed to goals for actual minutes played? Yes.
My stats showed that yours were misleading, no?

Goals per game is a very widely used statistic, in the criteria you've set up there it's irrelevant, but not in general.

As for showing that they were misleading, my point was that Carroll doesn't score close to as often as Suarez. Would you say that's true?

Offline Cid

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #660 on: August 16, 2012, 06:12:36 PM »
He said he'd rather strengthen plan A than switch to plan B.  Andy's days here are numbered.  If he refuses to budge and stays with a manager who blatantly doesn't want him then more fool him.  It'll cost us a decent recoup on his value, but it'll cost Carroll a good chunk of his career.

70-80k for 'plan b' on the bench.  Ludicrous.

Offline john_mac

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #661 on: August 16, 2012, 06:12:56 PM »
Fuck me this one is a new low, even for this gaff, completely full of shite
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Offline Red Eyed

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #662 on: August 16, 2012, 06:15:32 PM »
Seriously? a Carroll vs Suarez argument?

Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #663 on: August 16, 2012, 06:15:39 PM »
I'm not sure the debate on whether Carroll is a good player or has the potential to become one is even worth it at this point. My opinion is that he is nowhere near good enough for us, although I will concede that on a couple of occassions, most notably the FA Cup Final, he was excellent.

For me, the whole argument is moot now because it's clear the manager doesn't want him. This was proven by our acceptance of the West Ham offer. If he stays, he'll be a sub that the manager uses reluctantly. And the wages we pay him, and the transfer fee we don't receive for him, will be money the manager doesn't have available to spend on someone he wants. I don't see any benefits to that scenario.

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #664 on: August 16, 2012, 06:17:18 PM »
Fuck me this one is a new low, even for this gaff, completely full of shite

Don't read it then? You must secretly love it to keep coming back in here.

Offline Kennys from heaven

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #665 on: August 16, 2012, 06:23:05 PM »
Liverpool 'fans': Best pitchfork and torch brigade in the World...

£35million? Not his fault, but fucking hang him anyway. Injured when brought in? Maybe that's not his fault as well, but what the hell - when has that ever detracted us form a good 'ol call to flay him in the streets. Struggling in a side that hoofed the ball to him aimlessly for most of the time he actually was on the pitch? Jesus Christ - now we're in a murderous frenzy to write him off and fucking sell him, the frigging donkey as although it's not his fault, we don't fancy him as a player!!!

Is it any co-incidence that the more he played the better he looked or was that just me? Funny how that works: Play from the start (getting fitter and also more used to things... you know? how players get better and all that??? No...?) against coming on when your side is desperate to try to get something from a game when all else has failed and have balls lumped to you from all angles? If he'd shown no signs of improvement you may have had a smidge of a point, but the reality is that it was the complete polar opposite, but still, let's send him packing to someone else shall we.

Fuck me ragged... you have to love the support we give our players don't you. Plenty have been deserving of a flogging but Andy Carroll is not one of them, but hey, don't let the likes of Geoff or the 5th Benitle put you off, you fill yer boots lads...





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Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #666 on: August 16, 2012, 06:23:57 PM »
Goals per game is a very widely used statistic, in the criteria you've set up there it's irrelevant, but not in general.

As for showing that they were misleading, my point was that Carroll doesn't score close to as often as Suarez. Would you say that's true?
I am not disputing anything about Suarez (in fact his goalscoring record would be even more impressive if only his actual minutes played were taken into consideration).
They were misleading because they are not a true representation of Andy Carrolls PL goalscoring record here. Its not great anyway so why try to make it out to be worse than it is?
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Offline Carolina Red

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #667 on: August 16, 2012, 06:24:39 PM »
Absolutely I would.

You would pay 15MM for Andy Carroll right now?

So far there isn't a football club or manager that agrees with that evaluation of Carroll.

Except for Big Sam.  :)

Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #668 on: August 16, 2012, 06:25:19 PM »
You would pay 15MM for Andy Carroll right now?
Of course I would. You do know he's 23 right?
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Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #669 on: August 16, 2012, 06:29:43 PM »
He said he'd rather strengthen plan A than switch to plan B.  Andy's days here are numbered.  If he refuses to budge and stays with a manager who blatantly doesn't want him then more fool him.  It'll cost us a decent recoup on his value, but it'll cost Carroll a good chunk of his career.

70-80k for 'plan b' on the bench.  Ludicrous.
We'll have past it, plan b 90k defenders & midfielders  on the bench anyway. I'd rather have someone who can actually win us a game or come on and actually change a game than that, thank you very much.
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Offline Carolina Red

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #670 on: August 16, 2012, 06:29:55 PM »
Of course I would. You do know he's 23 right?

Like I said, So far Big Sam is thE only manager in world football that shares your valuation of Carroll, but we shall see.

Offline Kennys from heaven

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #671 on: August 16, 2012, 06:30:31 PM »
I don't want to get too carried away with this thread, I'm probably coming across like I only registered to bash Carroll.

For me, the least of an attackers duties is defending, it's nice that Andy can help us out, but I don't see it as a hugely important thing.
Quote Bob Paisley when asked who his best defender was "Ian Rush"

Any guesses why such a person would say such a thing of a centre forward?? I am sorry, but if you knew anything of football at a basic level, you'll understand why I have take your comment above and highlighted how daft it was, especially when you consider that our current manager wants to play a pressing game... much like successful Liverpool teams of old used to play btw.
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Offline Lenin

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #672 on: August 16, 2012, 06:32:14 PM »
You would pay 15MM for Andy Carroll right now?

So far there isn't a football club or manager that agrees with that evaluation of Carroll.

Except for Big Sam.  :)
Palermo wouldnt pay £4 million for Lucas 2 years ago. Stoke would have, like.
Ferguson has probably told Moyes that he will be his recommendation to take over.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #673 on: August 16, 2012, 06:32:24 PM »
jaundiced viewpoint much! Or your TV has a fault?

I can't gainsay the first point. Maybe it's true. I try hard to be objective but it's impossible, I suppose.

TV feed is the same as yours. Commentary probably differs. Although I usually mute the windbags.
not really...next season he [Lucas Leiva] wont be here or he'll be here as bench warmer...mark my words

Offline Ronanoman

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #674 on: August 16, 2012, 06:32:25 PM »
Meh, now the manager is going on about the plan A's and plan B's...

Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #675 on: August 16, 2012, 06:35:43 PM »
Some quotes from Rodgers on Carroll and Plan B:

"He knows where he stands. He is an important part of our group and that is how I see it at the moment," added the 39-year-old.

"If you are a team that puts crosses in and are firing them in from all angles he is a great player in the box.

"Naturally his height and his power gives him that strength but if you play a different style it is that much more difficult.

"Most managers have a way of playing and a Plan A in terms of the way they want to play.

"I will always try to make Plan A better before I go to Plan B. If trying to make Plan A better doesn't work then we go to Plan B and then probably Plan C."

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11669/7996305/Rodgers-Agger-wants-to-stay


Reckon he's been reading RAWK?

Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #676 on: August 16, 2012, 06:36:35 PM »
Like I said, So far Big Sam is thE only manager in world football that shares your valuation of Carroll, but we shall see.
Ridiculous thing to say really. Plenty might buy him at that price but can't afford it. Plus you have no more idea than I do of who's actually shown interest, not everyone is as public as Sullivan.

Hopefully we won't see, as I want him to stay.
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Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #677 on: August 16, 2012, 06:37:39 PM »
Reckon he's been reading RAWK?
Nah, Plan B just came on his ipod shuffle.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #678 on: August 16, 2012, 06:40:39 PM »
I respectfully ask regular match-going supporters to quit lording it over the rest of us who physically cannot go to the match regularly, nay at all, as we're thousands of miles away. We are not (necessarily?) "pricks" and we do not (necessarily) have an "agenda". Some of us most certainly are not influenced by the media in the U.K. or (god forbid) 'soccer' coverage in the U.S..

Some of us have been to plenty of proper footballing matches in our lifetime, as youths and as younger men/women. Whilst one gains a distinct perspective on a match by being there at the time, it's also the case that unless one studies "tape" (as they used to say) one does not get a full understanding of the match. People don't watch video of other club's games, or of prospects for nothing.

All I can do, since I cannot go to the game, is to watch LFC (and other clubs in the PL, and matches from other leagues) religiously. I even spend time to watch games I've watched live over again on 'tape'. It may not necessarily make me a more knowledgeable supporter than those who do not, but it certainly allows me to be on an equal footing with folks who simply go the game regularly, but do nothing else in terms of studying games.
not really...next season he [Lucas Leiva] wont be here or he'll be here as bench warmer...mark my words

Offline Harbinger4

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Re: Andy Carroll
« Reply #679 on: August 16, 2012, 06:40:49 PM »
Quote Bob Paisley when asked who his best defender was "Ian Rush"

Any guesses why such a person would say such a thing of a centre forward?? I am sorry, but if you knew anything of football at a basic level, you'll understand why I have take your comment above and highlighted how daft it was, especially when you consider that our current manager wants to play a pressing game... much like successful Liverpool teams of old used to play btw.

Defending from the front, I agree, Suarez pressures and wins the ball high up the pitch very well, maybe better than any forward in the league, certainly much better than Carroll. The point I was replying to was defending set pieces, which anyone on the pitch could do, we don't need a forward to help out from corners and free kicks when our back line, along with Lucas, Allen, Gerrard aren't insufficient. It's a bonus that Carroll can help out defending set pieces, but it's not a reason to keep him on the pitch when other players offer so much more going forward.
Thanks for the condescending tone though.