Topic: Liverpool wages and how they might impact on transfers

[LiamG]

Borini and most likely Allen on estimated wages of 60k a week each. Still leaves a good chunk of money to work with.

Do you really think borini and Allen would really be on 60k a week? Rodgers will know exacly what them 2 were both on at Swansea, Unless i have no idea how much players like them get on wages these days!

I would of said 40k a week for them 2

[aoaaron]

^^... well if we look at the rumoured Downing/Carroll/Henderson wages, I wouldn't be too surprised.

We are absolutley dire in the market. We buy average players at a preimum, we defend them for having low wages... yet in reality their wages are still fairly high if reports are to be trusted (Carroll/Henderson/Downing all on 65k+ wtflol)

[Dubit10]

We have been screwed for years in the transfer and wages department. Rafa was getting a grip on it at one stage but that all went off the rails.

[Fromola]

Do you really think borini and Allen would really be on 60k a week? Rodgers will know exacly what them 2 were both on at Swansea, Unless i have no idea how much players like them get on wages these days!

I would of said 40k a week for them 2

Surely they won't be on 60 when we wouldn't pay Sigurdsson more than 30.

[Mal]

Are we really that skint that because we can't sell Carroll we have to sell Agger?

If that's really what's going on, especially with the trimming of the wage bill, I'm through with the owners.

Sorry.

[redmen77]

as some of the guys on here have already said. it will be interesting to see if Uefa do actually enforce the FFP.   Heres us trying to create a sustainable model for when it eventually kicks in.  Whereas the billionaires of this land can somehow land a multimillion sponsorship deal from a partner company which would offset against revenue and give license to go spend the mega millions on players.    its just like going into Football manager cheat mode and putting a few extra zeros on the end of your bank balance.   

Are we really just trying to fall in line with FFP or are FSG taking the same stance as Randy Lerner has been doing for the last two seasons at Villa? I get the feeling FSG are accepting that we can't compete at the very top level by paying high wages to the next level down. Can see us having a very young squad next season.

[Gnurglan]

Are we really that skint that because we can't sell Carroll we have to sell Agger?

If that's really what's going on, especially with the trimming of the wage bill, I'm through with the owners.

Sorry.

It's not that strange. Either we sell the players we need to sell, and there are quite a few of them. Or the only way to raise cash is to sell players in our core. As usual, we seem to opt for the easy way out, which means we also continue to dismantle that core. And we keep the ones that need to go. Because it's hard to sell them.

All I see is the same lazy approach.

[Gnurglan]

Are we really just trying to fall in line with FFP or are FSG taking the same stance as Randy Lerner has been doing for the last two seasons at Villa? I get the feeling FSG are accepting that we can't compete at the very top level by paying high wages to the next level down. Can see us having a very young squad next season.

Having a young team means nothing. Anyone can create a young side. Anyone. All you need to say is they have promise for the future and you need five years. So you have bought yourself half a decade and you need to show nothing.

There is no doubt we pay too much in wages for what we get. If we need to keep those players, they will need to step up, deliver and show they are worth what we pay them. No excuses. If they can't live with that, we should get them out asap and we should work day and night to ensure it happens. Because that is the only way for us to get new players that will allow us to compete.

[aoaaron]

If Agger wasn't so injury prone, I'd be saying 30M minimum.

The only worry is if he Agger has another injury plagued season which compromises our defence, fluidity and season. 25M... I'd be tempted to take it if we have a solid replacement in mind.

He is a fantastic, phenomenal ball playing defender. The only problem is his injuries... which as a massive risk. Its funny because its a similar situation with RVP. Fantastic player, everyone knows it, but his injury record is just that bad to the extent you're praying every time he goes down its nothing serious.

Many have spoke about Micah + money for Johnson. I'd be tempted to grab that but City rate richards highly..

edit: sorry wrong thread.

[filopastry]

Having a young team means nothing. Anyone can create a young side. Anyone. All you need to say is they have promise for the future and you need five years. So you have bought yourself half a decade and you need to show nothing.

There is no doubt we pay too much in wages for what we get. If we need to keep those players, they will need to step up, deliver and show they are worth what we pay them. No excuses. If they can't live with that, we should get them out asap and we should work day and night to ensure it happens. Because that is the only way for us to get new players that will allow us to compete.

Indeed and unfortunately as you say instead we look to sell the likes of Agger who are probably worth more than their vcurrent wages because they're easy to sell and we get a fee for them.

Of course they then need to be replaced which is a lottery to see if we get it right and it doesn't address the underlying issue of the overpaid, underperforming periphery of the squad, and that's not a small periphery.

As long as that problem doesn't get addressed we just come back with the same issue next summer as Carra is the only player whose wages drop off the payroll next summer.

[redmen77]

Having a young team means nothing. Anyone can create a young side. Anyone. All you need to say is they have promise for the future and you need five years. So you have bought yourself half a decade and you need to show nothing.

There is no doubt we pay too much in wages for what we get. If we need to keep those players, they will need to step up, deliver and show they are worth what we pay them. No excuses. If they can't live with that, we should get them out asap and we should work day and night to ensure it happens. Because that is the only way for us to get new players that will allow us to compete.

That was kind of the point I was making. I actually like the fact that Carroll wants to say and fight for his place. Sounds like Agger becomes the fall guy to balance the books and Coates gets a more prominent role as back up (with perhaps even Danny Wilson).

[filopastry]

That was kind of the point I was making. I actually like the fact that Carroll wants to say and fight for his place. Sounds like Agger becomes the fall guy to balance the books and Coates gets a more prominent role as back up (with perhaps even Danny Wilson).

I'd be happier with Carroll wanting to stay and fight for his place if he started performing like someone on £80k a week a tad more often.

If Agger goes I'd be surprised if we didn't buy a replacement, I think the club was nervous about the CB position even if Agger was going to stay.

[bigbear]

I'd be happier with Carroll wanting to stay and fight for his place if he started performing like someone on £80k a week a tad more often.

If Agger goes I'd be surprised if we didn't buy a replacement, I think the club was nervous about the CB position even if Agger was going to stay.

I don't think it's anything to do with Carroll.

There have been rumours about Skrtel and/or Agger for ages and Amoriebieta being watched. All this was before Carroll had done anything.

By the way, I still think Carroll will end up at Newcastle for about 13m quid.

[LiamG]

^^... well if we look at the rumoured Downing/Carroll/Henderson wages, I wouldn't be too surprised.

We are absolutley dire in the market. We buy average players at a preimum, we defend them for having low wages... yet in reality their wages are still fairly high if reports are to be trusted (Carroll/Henderson/Downing all on 65k+ wtflol)

Yeah but BR will know exacly how much borini and Allen are worth exacly the same as sigurdsson so I doubt they will be on that much?

[Carolina Red]

I don't think it's anything to do with Carroll.

There have been rumours about Skrtel and/or Agger for ages and Amoriebieta being watched. All this was before Carroll had done anything.

By the way, I still think Carroll will end up at Newcastle for about 13m quid.

Exactly. People complaining about selling to buy, etc. Hell even City is under a mandate this summer to move out players before adding, they're out of the RVP sweepstakes as a result.

[Lofty Ambitions]

I think we need to have top four as a target. What we don't need to do is sack everyone in sight, should we fail to reach the target. From last season, I think only the Academy staff is intact. The rest is new. That's not the way to do it. But we need to aim high and then see where we need to strengthen. Much better than aiming for 6th and then celebrate when we get there.

I disagree that we have done a "Newcastle". IMO, we haven't even started. All we've done is scratched the surface a little. We've done the easy bit that required next to no work at all. It's Kuyt, Maxi, Aquilani... Not saying it was wrong here, just saying it was the easy part. Next?

For example, we need to question if we should continue to pay Carra and Gerrard some combined 200k/w. Carra is no longer first pick and Gerrard played half of the league games last season. Worth it? Add Cole and Carroll. Adam. Downing. Now we're talking close to 500k/w or 25M/year. How about Reina? He's 30 this month. If we want to sell him, the time is now. How about an injury prone 33-year old Bellamy? How many of them do we want as first picks? How many of them can fill that role and do what's required of them?

My point here is not to debate individual players!

My point is the depth we need to go to. We should go through every single player. We can't do all changes at once, but I think we are far off having gone through all players. All I see is us having done the easy bit. And that won't be enough.

Cheers,

On "realistic target", we are on agreement here. What I meant is that indeed fourth is not a realistic target in a manner that heads would need to roll if we fail to achieve it. Finishing sixth is pretty much what the squad together with the new manager should be realistically achieve. Fifth, and the new set-up got a flying start, and fourth we seriously overachieved.

But yes, fourth should be the target everyone should be running their socks off to achive.

As for getting rid of players who do not fit the new model. I often need to type things out to get me head straight. The end result for my little rambling was that I was quite happy what has been achieved so far. On this we seem to be on a different opinion. While I agree it is not about players as such, we have got rid of so many false signings or players who simply do not deliver.

Gerrard is an icon and his shirt sales alone make up for his wage I guess. Carra is on his last year isn't he, so that is soon settled. I am not a particular fan of his type of leadership, but he is a local lad who's given it all to red shirt so therefore I am sure he does not send a wrong message out.

Adam, Downing, Carroll, I should give them this season to either settle or be sold. It is not like they are on obscene wages are they.

Bellamy seems to be leaving, I would have not minded him seeing his contract of but either way I am fine. We agree on Cole, but my conclusion was that if we are down to one overpaid pro well it could be so much worse.

Pepe can last another five - six years easily and is one of the core players we should deffo keep. Suarez we need to tie down to a longer contract.

Agger is a world class defender, but my head is starting to sway. Maybe it would not be too bad to sell him for the alleged £22M. But I noticed Rory Smith was among others who were concerned of the message it sends out. Agger is definitively of captain material together with Lucas, once Gerrard hangs his boots. (As much as I love Pepe the old fart that I am I do not like to see a goalie as a captain...)

So yes, easy bits are done. Some of the more difficult as well IMHO. The transfer season remains open so let us see what else happens. Loans in and out are being considered (Shelvey for an example), so what is left come September could actually be very much a new beginning. Once again.

[Zlenpasha]

Exactly. People complaining about selling to buy, etc. Hell even City is under a mandate this summer to move out players before adding, they're out of the RVP sweepstakes as a result.

Are they selling Kompany?
Must have missed that.

[Melbred]

Are they selling Kompany?
Must have missed that.

Have we sold Agger?
Must have missed that.

[Zlenpasha]

Have we sold Agger?
Must have missed that.

Selling Melbred, selling.
We are apparently selling our best defender.
They aren't and would never even consider it.

[Melbred]

Selling Melbred, selling.
We are apparently selling our best defender.
They aren't and would never even consider it.

Key word - apparently. I.e we know fuck all.
We'd be daft to not even consider something in the region of 25m for him.
And he's one of my favourite players.

[Zlenpasha]

Key word - apparently. I.e we know fuck all.
We'd be daft to not even consider something in the region of 25m for him.
And he's one of my favourite players.

We know enough to conclude that we're not discussing a new contract with him and that he is 'on the table' for whoever will fund our summer of wage trimming. Daft is ignoring the fact that keeping your best players is the best chance you have for success.

[Melbred]

We know enough to conclude that we're not discussing a new contract with him and that he is 'on the table' for whoever will fund our summer of wage trimming. Daft is ignoring the fact that keeping your best players is the best chance you have for success.

Depends who you believe. Poster in the general thread says we've tabled an offer with the mods approval.

As with everything, the key is in the replacement. Agger being sold for anything circa 25m is good money for a player of his age and injury record.

Personally, I think he'll stay and sign a new contract.

[Il Capitano]

Personally, I think he'll stay and sign a new contract.

Why do you think the club have offered him to City for £22m and not, say, £30m?

It's because they want to sell him. Setting too high a valuation would put City off completely and take the ball out of our court: they've set their price at a reasonable amount because they want to sell Daniel Agger for £22m.

[RedHopper]

Realistically speaking if someone offers us £15-20 million for daniel agger we should snap their hands off. He has only two years left on his contract, he is only available for half of the season, and he is only at full fitness for even half of that. We have to take a long hard look at what he actually brings to the table over the course of a whole season, rather than the odd game that his body allows him to play, and play at full fitness.

I'm afraid that too many people are thinking back to the player that we bought who effortlessly slotted into a team in the Champions league final. Unfortunately he's never built on that enormous promise. It's difficult to say that he's any better now than he was then, partially  because he was so good to begin with, but also because the improvements he's made through experience, have been eroded by his unfortunate physical condition.

If we're going to be serious about getting our squad into shape, we have to start making decisions on where  we are going  to be in a couple of years time. If we give daniel agger a new contract for five years, we are going to be tieing ourselves to a player whose injury problems are only going to be worse, and push up his wage costl. We don't want to be looking at a 29 year old agger in the same way that we now look at jamie Carragher counting down the years until he's off the wage bill. that's no way to wind up.

instead we should just bite the bullet sell him for as much as we can, use part of the savings in wages to give skrtel a new contract, sign another strong young centre back as a long term replacement for skrtel, and to share the burden of replacing agger with coates. That way we make a coherent plan for our future, and have a solid progression in place.  extending aggers contract isn't going to do that.

[Carolina Red]

Are they selling Kompany?
Must have missed that.

I didn't say they were selling Kompany.

If you follow the Premier League news you would know that Mancini has to offload players to fund new signings due to FFP. As a result, Mancini said they would likely not be able to sign Van Persie, their top target this summer.

[Carolina Red]

Realistically speaking if someone offers us £15-20 million for daniel agger we should snap their hands off. He has only two years left on his contract, he is only available for half of the season, and he is only at full fitness for even half of that. We have to take a long hard look at what he actually brings to the table over the course of a whole season, rather than the odd game that his body allows him to play, and play at full fitness.

I'm afraid that too many people are thinking back to the player that we bought who effortlessly slotted into a team in the Champions league final. Unfortunately he's never built on that enormous promise. It's difficult to say that he's any better now than he was then, partially  because he was so good to begin with, but also because the improvements he's made through experience, have been eroded by his unfortunate physical condition.

If we're going to be serious about getting our squad into shape, we have to start making decisions on where  we are going  to be in a couple of years time. If we give daniel agger a new contract for five years, we are going to be tieing ourselves to a player whose injury problems are only going to be worse, and push up his wage costl. We don't want to be looking at a 29 year old agger in the same way that we now look at jamie Carragher counting down the years until he's off the wage bill. that's no way to wind up.

instead we should just bite the bullet sell him for as much as we can, use part of the savings in wages to give skrtel a new contract, sign another strong young centre back as a long term replacement for skrtel, and to share the burden of replacing agger with coates. That way we make a coherent plan for our future, and have a solid progression in place.  extending aggers contract isn't going to do that.

Agreed. Selling an injury prone 27 year old center back for 22milion would be good business if a replacement the quality and style of Amorebieta is brought in at 7-8 million.

[aoaaron]

Realistically speaking if someone offers us £15-20 million for daniel agger we should snap their hands off. He has only two years left on his contract, he is only available for half of the season, and he is only at full fitness for even half of that. We have to take a long hard look at what he actually brings to the table over the course of a whole season, rather than the odd game that his body allows him to play, and play at full fitness.

I'm afraid that too many people are thinking back to the player that we bought who effortlessly slotted into a team in the Champions league final. Unfortunately he's never built on that enormous promise. It's difficult to say that he's any better now than he was then, partially  because he was so good to begin with, but also because the improvements he's made through experience, have been eroded by his unfortunate physical condition.

If we're going to be serious about getting our squad into shape, we have to start making decisions on where  we are going  to be in a couple of years time. If we give daniel agger a new contract for five years, we are going to be tieing ourselves to a player whose injury problems are only going to be worse, and push up his wage costl. We don't want to be looking at a 29 year old agger in the same way that we now look at jamie Carragher counting down the years until he's off the wage bill. that's no way to wind up.

instead we should just bite the bullet sell him for as much as we can, use part of the savings in wages to give skrtel a new contract, sign another strong young centre back as a long term replacement for skrtel, and to share the burden of replacing agger with coates. That way we make a coherent plan for our future, and have a solid progression in place.  extending aggers contract isn't going to do that.

Logically, if we have a good replacement in hand and get 20M+, preferably in the 25M range for a player who is terribly injury prone, I'd take it.

The problem is if Agger has truly overcome his injury troubles, he is settled, he is our best, he fits into Rodgers style of play, hes left footed and for me he is one of the best defenders in the league. If he improves everyone around him.

If we have identified a younger CB who has a great deal of quality, we could snap but given the lack of experience in the squad and how slow/bad we've been in the market so far this summer.. I'm just very worried that we'll sell him and then make a bad buy.

That means this summer we'd have sold Agger, Maxi, Kuyt and Aquilani. Each player with different circumstances... most of them wanting to go. But I think we can all agree... they aren't our worst players... far from it in Agger's case, yet we're shifting them on and leaving the 'deadwood' at the club.



If we can get a lot of cash, a player or two from city and reinvest the money wisely, I'm game for it based on Agger's injury record. City have a lot of deadwood which are potential stars, its just the type of club they are and we could take advantage.



-Agger
+Richards
+Guidetti (or everyones favorite Adam Johnson lol)
+15M

I think Rodgers is probably thinking this is a perfect oppurtunity for him to get some solid money in for an injury prone player and make his mark on the squad with a few really good transfers.

[Juan Loco]

The people in charge of this club have the collective intelligence of a pear.

Give it to them straight...

[Gnurglan]

Realistically speaking if someone offers us £15-20 million for daniel agger we should snap their hands off. He has only two years left on his contract, he is only available for half of the season, and he is only at full fitness for even half of that. We have to take a long hard look at what he actually brings to the table over the course of a whole season, rather than the odd game that his body allows him to play, and play at full fitness.

I'm afraid that too many people are thinking back to the player that we bought who effortlessly slotted into a team in the Champions league final. Unfortunately he's never built on that enormous promise. It's difficult to say that he's any better now than he was then, partially  because he was so good to begin with, but also because the improvements he's made through experience, have been eroded by his unfortunate physical condition.

If we're going to be serious about getting our squad into shape, we have to start making decisions on where  we are going  to be in a couple of years time. If we give daniel agger a new contract for five years, we are going to be tieing ourselves to a player whose injury problems are only going to be worse, and push up his wage costl. We don't want to be looking at a 29 year old agger in the same way that we now look at jamie Carragher counting down the years until he's off the wage bill. that's no way to wind up.

instead we should just bite the bullet sell him for as much as we can, use part of the savings in wages to give skrtel a new contract, sign another strong young centre back as a long term replacement for skrtel, and to share the burden of replacing agger with coates. That way we make a coherent plan for our future, and have a solid progression in place.  extending aggers contract isn't going to do that.

See your point. I think it's sensible and I understand the logic. I just don't think we'd do it right.

If we sell Agger for 20M+, that in itself has to be seen as a good deal. However, we wouldn't sign this new top defender. We'd have Carra right back in and we'd have Coates stuck on the bench. We'd use the money to buy someone for midfield/attack. Which, to be fair, also makes sense.

If I was BR and someone just took Agger out of this squad and there was 20M extra in the bank, I'd gamble on Skrtel, Coates and Carra. I wouldn't buy a new CB. That's a risk I'd take and I'd see if any of the Academy players was good enough. Before I bought.

The real problem with selling Agger is that we'd lose a core player to sign a new one. It's shifting like for like. What we need to do is to sell those who have little to offer.

I don't want us to sell one player to buy two. We already have many players. We should do the opposite. Sell two players to buy one. Trim the size, get a real high quality core and then bet on the youth we have. That would be my approach. I believe it would save money (two wages off the bill, one new on) and it would open up for Academy players. Suso, Pacheco, Sterling, Flanagan,... they'd all play games and one year from now I'd know a lot more about them and their qualities.

[Il Capitano]

Realistically speaking if someone offers us £15-20 million for daniel agger we should snap their hands off. He has only two years left on his contract, he is only available for half of the season, and he is only at full fitness for even half of that. We have to take a long hard look at what he actually brings to the table over the course of a whole season, rather than the odd game that his body allows him to play, and play at full fitness.

He hasn't had a muscle injury in nearly a year and a half, though. He's had a few knocks and a fractured rib since then, but nothing that shows a resurgence of the long-term muscular problems he had in his first few seasons at the club. Last season he played 2140 minutes of league football, or 24 matches - his second-highest season for minutes while at the club. Whilst on the pitch, it's statistically proven that we concede less goals per game (a goal conceded every 101 minutes with: a goal conceded every 66 minutes without), and our win percentage drops (from 40% with, to 27% without) last season.

http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/players/2330/daniel_agger_injury.html
http://www.thisisanfield.com/2012/04/is-the-absence-of-daniel-agger-hurting-liverpool/

[Carolina Red]

Logically, if we have a good replacement in hand and get 20M+, preferably in the 25M range for a player who is terribly injury prone, I'd take it.

The problem is if Agger has truly overcome his injury troubles, he is settled, he is our best, he fits into Rodgers style of play, hes left footed and for me he is one of the best defenders in the league. If he improves everyone around him.

If we have identified a younger CB who has a great deal of quality, we could snap but given the lack of experience in the squad and how slow/bad we've been in the market so far this summer.. I'm just very worried that we'll sell him and then make a bad buy.

That means this summer we'd have sold Agger, Maxi, Kuyt and Aquilani. Each player with different circumstances... most of them wanting to go. But I think we can all agree... they aren't our worst players... far from it in Agger's case, yet we're shifting them on and leaving the 'deadwood' at the club.



If we can get a lot of cash, a player or two from city and reinvest the money wisely, I'm game for it based on Agger's injury record. City have a lot of deadwood which are potential stars, its just the type of club they are and we could take advantage.



-Agger
+Richards
+Guidetti (or everyones favorite Adam Johnson lol)
+15M

I think Rodgers is probably thinking this is a perfect oppurtunity for him to get some solid money in for an injury prone player and make his mark on the squad with a few really good transfers.

Agger is a gat player, when he plays. But I think it's the triumph of hope over experience to think Agger will suddenly put his injury woes behind him. He missed almost a thirdf of the season last year, and is almost 28; not many players get less injury prone as they get older.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

We're not going to compete to be champions unless we have the mentality of champions.

Too many people are scared of selling our best players as we might not replace them. But as Melbred correctly points its not the player which is the crucial factor here, it's the manager. If the manager can identify can find a suitable, cheaper replacement, the rest of the money can be spent on strengthening the team. That's what Rafa did - he traded up. It's what Kenny and Comolli couldn't do. But unless we are actually prepared to trade up there's no way we are going to ever challenge again. We certainly aren't going to outspend our rivals and its not as though we have a head start over them is it?

For me the crucial factor is in Abrak's post, linked above. "Selling Gerrard for 30m would be crazy because we'd never replace him for that much" - "Yes but at a fast approaching point we would have to replace him anyway so we may as well use someone else's money to do it".

The same goes for Agger. There's no-one I love in the team more than him but the fact is due to injury and age we will soon enough have the headache of trying to replace him anyway - why not use 25 million pounds of our rival's money to do that with? And if not now then when?

Whether we decide to or not we need to stop wallowing in the fear of ANY of our players being irreplaceable - they're not. How many times have Manchester United sold their players and coped? If anything it's healthy for a club which think like champions. Hanging on to players like a frightened granny peeking out of her front door afraid of the future in the outside world is not the way to ever win anything in this league.

No team has won the league acting out of fear and we won't compete either until we realise that.

[Carolina Red]

We're not going to compete to be champions unless we have the mentality of champions.

Too many people are scared of selling our best players as we might not replace them. But as Melbred correctly points its not the player which is the crucial factor here, it's the manager. If the manager can identify can find a suitable, cheaper replacement, the rest of the money can be spent on strengthening the team. That's what Rafa did - he traded up. It's what Kenny and Comolli couldn't do. But unless we are actually prepared to trade up there's no way we are going to ever challenge again. We certainly aren't going to outspend our rivals and its not as though we have a head start over them is it?

For me the crucial factor is in Abrak's post, linked above. "Selling Gerrard for 30m would be crazy because we'd never replace him for that much" - "Yes but at a fast approaching point we would have to replace him anyway so we may as well use someone else's money to do it".

The same goes for Agger. There's no-one I love in the team more than him but the fact is due to injury and age we will soon enough have the headache of trying to replace him anyway - why not use 25 million pounds of our rival's money to do that with? And if not now then when?

Whether we decide to or not we need to stop wallowing in the fear of ANY of our players being irreplaceable - they're not. How many times have Manchester United sold their players and coped? If anything it's healthy for a club which think like champions. Hanging on to players like a frightened granny peeking out of her front door afraid of the future in the outside world is not the way to ever win anything in this league.

No team has won the league acting out of fear and we won't compete either until we realise that.

All great points- also it's a cliche but it's usually true, it's best to sell a player a year too early than a year too late. Agger is 27, soon to be 28 with 2 years left on his contract and will have to be replaced in the next year or two anyhow- why not do it while he's at maximum valuation?

I understand that some posters are afraid the money won't be spent wisely, fair enough. But two points: if you think the money won't be spent properly, that applies to money from Agger's sale, but also would be true for any other money spent. If you don't think money will be spent wisely then we should never spend any money ever and just close up shop once the current squad run down their contracts.

[Gnurglan]

We're not going to compete to be champions unless we have the mentality of champions.

Too many people are scared of selling our best players as we might not replace them. But as Melbred correctly points its not the player which is the crucial factor here, it's the manager. If the manager can identify can find a suitable, cheaper replacement, the rest of the money can be spent on strengthening the team. That's what Rafa did - he traded up. It's what Kenny and Comolli couldn't do. But unless we are actually prepared to trade up there's no way we are going to ever challenge again. We certainly aren't going to outspend our rivals and its not as though we have a head start over them is it?

For me the crucial factor is in Abrak's post, linked above. "Selling Gerrard for 30m would be crazy because we'd never replace him for that much" - "Yes but at a fast approaching point we would have to replace him anyway so we may as well use someone else's money to do it".

The same goes for Agger. There's no-one I love in the team more than him but the fact is due to injury and age we will soon enough have the headache of trying to replace him anyway - why not use 25 million pounds of our rival's money to do that with? And if not now then when?

Whether we decide to or not we need to stop wallowing in the fear of ANY of our players being irreplaceable - they're not. How many times have Manchester United sold their players and coped? If anything it's healthy for a club which think like champions. Hanging on to players like a frightened granny peeking out of her front door afraid of the future in the outside world is not the way to ever win anything in this league.

No team has won the league acting out of fear and we won't compete either until we realise that.

Good points. We definitely need to change our mentality. And we shouldn't be afraid of making tough calls.

For me though, selling Agger is not a tough call. It's one of the easiest possible ways to raise money. It's the quick way, but it's not a good way.

If we think tough calls, then it's selling for example Downing and Carroll for a total of (anything equal to or above) 25M, so we can buy one new player of high quality. A real significant loss, but it could lower our wages (that seem so important) and improve our team at the same time. Or it's to phase out Carra. Or to pay up Cole to leave. Another tough call is to cut Gerrard's wages and give him more of a pay as you play deal. Our top earner played only half the games last season. Other tough calls are to sell a local player like Spearing, and one of Johnson, Kelly and Flanagan. We have three RBs. Perhaps it's time to sell one? Those are some examples. Not saying we should do all that, but those are tough calls.
I suspect we don't dare to do either, so we look for the easy way out. We'd rather go for the 20M Agger deal. And IMO that is not being tough, it's being weak. Just think about it, we'd be tough on a 27-year old first pick and we'd take the casual approach with two 30+ players on high wages, who are not even first picks. (2xJC).

[Carolina Red]

Good points. We definitely need to change our mentality. And we shouldn't be afraid of making tough calls.

For me though, selling Agger is not a tough call. It's one of the easiest possible ways to raise money. It's the quick way, but it's not a good way.

If we think tough calls, then it's selling for example Downing and Carroll for a total of (anything equal to or above) 25M, so we can buy one new player of high quality. A real significant loss, but it could lower our wages (that seem so important) and improve our team at the same time. Or it's to phase out Carra. Or to pay up Cole to leave. Another tough call is to cut Gerrard's wages and give him more of a pay as you play deal. Our top earner played only half the games last season. Other tough calls are to sell a local player like Spearing, and one of Johnson, Kelly and Flanagan. We have three RBs. Perhaps it's time to sell one? Those are some examples. Not saying we should do all that, but those are tough calls.
I suspect we don't dare to do either, so we look for the easy way out. We'd rather go for the 20M Agger deal. And IMO that is not being tough, it's being weak. Just think about it, we'd be tough on a 27-year old first pick and we'd take the casual approach with two 30+ players on high wages, who are not even first picks. (2xJC).

I agree that all of the moves you propose would be preferrable to selling Agger. I think the reason why they are not done is because they are simply not do-able.

I seriously doubt we can raise 25 million for Carroll and Downing. They both have 4 years left at 80K per week; there are maybe 4 PL clubs that can afford those contracts and they all have better players at Carroll and Downing's positions, and better options in the transfer market.

It would great if Gerrard went to a pay as you play contract, but why on earth would he do that? Would you do it? I sure wouldn't. Same with Carra or Cole, nobody wants them, especially at 90K per week.

As for right back, Johnson is first pick and Flanagan is cover. Kelly is a CB long term, but he's already very injury prone at a very young age.

Spearing will probably be sold, Forest is apparently the frontrunner with 2 other Championship clubs interested (which tells you a lot).

Selling Agger isn't the ideal move, but it's not an ideal world.

[scouse29]

By the way, I still think Carroll will end up at Newcastle for about 13m quid.

You can see that coming a mile off. Pardew was on record saying only yesterday that he will be patient for the right deal. No prizes for guessing who he was on about.

[Gnurglan]

I agree that all of the moves you propose would be preferrable to selling Agger. I think the reason why they are not done is because they are simply not do-able.

I seriously doubt we can raise 25 million for Carroll and Downing. They both have 4 years left at 80K per week; there are maybe 4 PL clubs that can afford those contracts and they all have better players at Carroll and Downing's positions, and better options in the transfer market.

It would great if Gerrard went to a pay as you play contract, but why on earth would he do that? Would you do it? I sure wouldn't. Same with Carra or Cole, nobody wants them, especially at 90K per week.

As for right back, Johnson is first pick and Flanagan is cover. Kelly is a CB long term, but he's already very injury prone at a very young age.

Spearing will probably be sold, Forest is apparently the frontrunner with 2 other Championship clubs interested (which tells you a lot).

Selling Agger isn't the ideal move, but it's not an ideal world.

I understand it's difficult, but we need to find ways. We need to be a little more creative. Just take your reasoning there. We could be on to something. Spearing and Kelly should be possible to sell. Adam? We should be able to raise 10M for those three. That could finance one new player. Fees and wages. And we'd have traded three backups for a first team player. Say we used those three to fund Borini's transfer. I think that is realistic. We'd still be OK in CM and we'd still have our RBs.

The objection I'd imagine is around Kelly. I like him and I rate him. But not as highly as I rate Agger. It would be a little daring to go with Johnson and Flanagan for RB, but so? We'd promote Flanagan and we'd rely heavily on Johnson. It would be the right kind of gamble.

[TSC]

Just read the last page of this and quite a few actually trying to justify selling off our best players?  Agger injury prone and next to finished at 27?  You're either working secretly for Ayre or are from another planet.

Ideally LFC would say 'not for sale'.  It'd basically be another signal that we're a selling cum feeder club for the bigger teams eh.  Why not stick Suarez in the shop window too, save on his wages after all.  Pacheco could step up eh.

Someone mentioned UTD is never afraid to sell good players.  Well wakey wakey, they're in a position or rather are usually in a position of strength when doing it, I.e. champions.  And more often than not, Ronaldo excepted, they replace with better.  We're a sorry state away from a similar level.  You wanna strengthen and add to what you have, not flog off your best and hope for the best re replacements.  Do you really think LFC nowadays would replace Agger with a better player?  Well if ya do step away from the crack pipe.

Madness

[scouse29]

I understand it's difficult, but we need to find ways. We need to be a little more creative. Just take your reasoning there. We could be on to something. Spearing and Kelly should be possible to sell. Adam? We should be able to raise 10M for those three. That could finance one new player. Fees and wages. And we'd have traded three backups for a first team player. Say we used those three to fund Borini's transfer. I think that is realistic. We'd still be OK in CM and we'd still have our RBs.

The objection I'd imagine is around Kelly. I like him and I rate him. But not as highly as I rate Agger. It would be a little daring to go with Johnson and Flanagan for RB, but so? We'd promote Flanagan and we'd rely heavily on Johnson. It would be the right kind of gamble.

Do you not see Kelly as a long term CB? I don't think we have taken many risks in the past with relying on younger players. I use utd as an example of playing smalling and jones at CH and not many would batter an eye lid. Could you see us playing Kelly and flanno at CB? I am not saying they should play there but we seem to be over cautious of protecting players. Regardless of age or experience if they are good enough the talent will shine through.

[mulfella]

Ideally LFC would say 'not for sale'.  It'd basically be another signal that we're a selling cum feeder club for the bigger teams eh.  Why not stick Suarez in the shop window too, save on his wages after all.  Pacheco could step up eh.

Someone mentioned UTD is never afraid to sell good players.  Well wakey wakey, they're in a position or rather are usually in a position of strength when doing it, I.e. champions.  And more often than not, Ronaldo excepted, they replace with better.  We're a sorry state away from a similar level.  You wanna strengthen and add to what you have, not flog off your best and hope for the best re replacements.  Do you really think LFC nowadays would replace Agger with a better player?  Well if ya do step away from the crack pipe.

To be fair, all clubs are feeder (ie Sellers) clubs except:

Man City
Chelsea
Barca
Real
PSG

I'm loathe to see Agger sold but I can see why Rogers might take the opposite view.