Author Topic: Impact subs (Read 2553 times)

DanA · « **on:** August 1, 2012, 03:14:32 AM »

I think it's worth assessing the squad in terms of the impact they can have in certain situations. For me having options coming off the bench can be different to having depth in the squad. Which players do people think can come off the bench and have impact for us?

When we need a goal:
1. Bellamy
Think there are few players that come of the bench and have the sort of impact Bellamy has. He injects intelligence and pace and takes the game on. He may not be able to start as many games as we'd like but he'd be my no.1 choice as an impact sub. I reckon he could gain us 6-8 points from losing/drawn positions over a season.

2. Charlie Adam
I know this will be controversial but with 15 minutes to go and a goal down, I'd take Adam over every single one of our midfielders bar Gerrard. Absolutely I'd start Henderson over him, I think Adam's a bit of a defensive liability but as an impact sub when we need a goal and have nothing to lose, who in our team can conjure up a goal better than Adam? Could see him pinch a few points over the course of a season.

3. Sterling
He's a nippy little fucker that isn't afraid to take the game on. His pace and work rate stand out even as a young player and late in on a game against tired legs I think he can have impact more so than most players in our squad.

4. Shelvey
He's one of those players that take a game on and is willing and able to shoot from anywhere. He's strong, suprisingly quick and had a rocket of a right foot. I could see him have the type of impact Meireles had when he and Suarez came on against a 10 men Arsenal.

When we need to kill off a game:
1. Carragher
He's a bit slow and hoofs the ball but I think he's an expereinced head and did a good job at killing off a few games last year as a sub. I think he could do the same this year.

To me nobody else stands out. I'd like a midfielder that is strong defensively that can batten down the hatches and kill off a game. able to maintain posession without taking risks, it's something we lacked big time last year and cost us a lot of points. QPR for example. We also don't have a defensive forward or winger that can do the job we'd previously employ kuyt to do. We need someone to limit the impact a player like Bale can have in some game situations.

lorenzo23 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:19:40 AM »

Carra would have negative impact on to the game you would be effectively inviting the team to attack you seem to forget what sort of system we looking to play next year a high line.

iamrobk · « **Reply #2 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:22:27 AM »

Quote from: lorenzo23 on August 1, 2012, 03:19:40 AM

Carra would have negative impact on to the game you would be effectively inviting the team to attack you seem to forget what sort of system we looking to play next year a high line.

We didn't seem to be playing a particularly high line in any of our friendlies, even when Carra wasn't playing. Maybe as time goes on we'll start to play a higher one, but I don't think it's a priority for Rodgers (unlike, say, Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas).

As for impact subs, I wouldn't mind us throwing on Pacheco or Eccleston if either of them is still with us. Each have pace and some tricks. But I'm sure they'll both be off somewhere soon.

DaveCharlie · « **Reply #3 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:25:32 AM »

Good OP.

I think Henderson could be the Kuyt filler in the role you describe, and so could Borini. Both seem to follow orders well and are able to fill in defensively and close down hard and fast.

Rememer ol Nabil el Zhar? In a weird way he was such a lucky charm for us off the bench in a number of games, and I can easily see Sterling providing the same type of option. Of course with the extra quality we know Sterling provides, he's definitely one we should be looking to for this role, even at his age.

DaveCharlie · « **Reply #4 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:26:34 AM »

Quote from: iamrobk on August 1, 2012, 03:22:27 AM

As for impact subs, I wouldn't mind us throwing on Pacheco or Eccleston if either of them is still with us. Each have pace and some tricks. But I'm sure they'll both be off somewhere soon.

Good point - Pacheco will definitely be a good game impacting option if he's still here.

DanA · « **Reply #5 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:32:19 AM »

I agree with the El Zhar/Sterling comparison. Pretty much how I see it too.

Not sure about Borini or Henderson. I don't think Henderson tackles well enought but has the workrate. Can't comment on Borini as I haven't seen enough of him.

Quote from: lorenzo23 on August 1, 2012, 03:19:40 AM

Carra would have negative impact on to the game you would be effectively inviting the team to attack you seem to forget what sort of system we looking to play next year a high line.

I'd disagree. We'll try to maintain posession but a goal up with 15 minutes to go we'll not have the high line and we won't be commiting as many people forward. Don't think Carraghers speed is an issue in this situation. I think his expereince is an asset though worth taking advantage of.

DanA · « **Reply #6 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:34:06 AM »

Quote from: DaveCharlie on August 1, 2012, 03:26:34 AM

Good point - Pacheco will definitely be a good game impacting option if he's still here.

Pacheco maybe but I don't see Eccelstone having impact. I think Morgan would have a bigger impact of the two though I'd not be excited seeing either come on a goal down late in the game.

lorenzo23 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:38:45 AM »

Quote from: iamrobk on August 1, 2012, 03:22:27 AM

We didn't seem to be playing a particularly high line in any of our friendlies, even when Carra wasn't playing. Maybe as time goes on we'll start to play a higher one, but I don't think it's a priority for Rodgers (unlike, say, Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas).

As for impact subs, I wouldn't mind us throwing on Pacheco or Eccleston if either of them is still with us. Each have pace and some tricks. But I'm sure they'll both be off somewhere soon.

Guess we see this season i can bet we play high line, which Carra will suffer from.

redoneusa · « **Reply #8 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:39:10 AM »

Funny when you mention impact subs the name "David Fairclough" springs to mind. Now there would be a fella to have on your bench. Like others have mentioned I reckon Sterling could well be that sub for us.

Although some reports I have seen suggest he might go out on loan, hopefully not. I think he could be just that impact sub for us with his pace and movement. Let's hope he gets that role.

vivabobbygraham · « **Reply #9 on:** August 1, 2012, 04:09:50 AM »

Quote from: lorenzo23 on August 1, 2012, 03:19:40 AM

Carra would have negative impact on to the game you would be effectively inviting the team to attack you seem to forget what sort of system we looking to play next year a high line.

Read the post lad. The op is talking about killing off a game with Carra from the bench. That is a negative impact when your back is to the wall defending a lead. That turns into a positive if we win.

Carroll is another one. Defending corners and set pieces but also dangerous at the other end.

An attacking alternative from the bench would be Downing. He is versatile down either flanks. If you can see an area to exploit stick him on and demand he attacks that area. I'm hoping BR restores his confidence this seaon. Early doors in the season he can come off the bench and deliver.

iamrobk · « **Reply #10 on:** August 1, 2012, 04:10:26 AM »

Quote from: DanA on August 1, 2012, 03:34:06 AM

Pacheco maybe but I don't see Eccelstone having impact. I think Morgan would have a bigger impact of the two though I'd not be excited seeing either come on a goal down late in the game.

Eccleston showed good pace and skill in the Reserves playing on the wing. Woulda liked to see him get some time there this pre-season instead of only at striker, think it'd suit him better anyway.

Quote from: lorenzo23 on August 1, 2012, 03:38:45 AM

Guess we see this season i can bet we play high line, which Carra will suffer from.

We'll see. I've watched the 3 Spurs friendlies since they've all been on TV in the US, and it's been interesting to compare their pre-season with ours. Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas already has them playing a high line, while Rodgers, if he wants one at all, hasn't seemed to have instructed our players to do so. I don't recall Swansea ever really playing a high line anyway.

KirkVanHouten · « **Reply #11 on:** August 1, 2012, 05:08:55 AM »

Playing a high line is one of the things that make a team more effective at winning the ball back when they press. I assume we'll eventually play one.

DaveCharlie · « **Reply #12 on:** August 1, 2012, 05:50:51 AM »

Quote from: iamrobk on August 1, 2012, 04:10:26 AM

Eccleston showed good pace and skill in the Reserves playing on the wing. Woulda liked to see him get some time there this pre-season instead of only at striker, think it'd suit him better anyway.We'll see. I've watched the 3 Spurs friendlies since they've all been on TV in the US, and it's been interesting to compare their pre-season with ours. Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas already has them playing a high line, while Rodgers, if he wants one at all, hasn't seemed to have instructed our players to do so. I don't recall Swansea ever really playing a high line anyway.

In my recollection, playing a high line was exactly what Swansea did under Rodgers - pressing and harrassing opponents into a long ball, low percentage option. Whether that is how we will play under Rodgers with the players at our disposal is another question. Also, its true that in the past if we were 1-0 up against someone we would drop deep and try to soak up pressure. I personally don't like this approach and from what I've seen of Rodgers he doesn't either.

PhaseofPlay · « **Reply #13 on:** August 1, 2012, 06:07:21 AM »

It's not as simple as saying "playing a high line" though. When the ball is lost, the backline will push up or drop depending on the level of pressure on the ball. If there is no-one pressing, the line will drop 5 yards, regardless of what Rodgers "prefers" to do. On the other hand, when the ball is won, the backline will drop and split, to create depth and support, in order to open space in the middle. This is the key to the possession game. Think of it like an accordian, expanding when we have the ball, contracting when we don't.

As for the OP, I think an impact sub is someone who is going to score goals from the bench, and as of now, we only really have Bellamy who can do that with any frequency. The ability to get goals, I think, is going to be a key factor in who Rodgers brings in (hence the Dempsey connection, Borini, and whoever else he buys, regardless of position - an extreme possession game like the one he wants to play needs game-changers like Messi and Villa and Iniesta, or it needs the goals to be spread throughout at least 8 of the 10 outfield players).

DaveCharlie · « **Reply #14 on:** August 1, 2012, 06:21:13 AM »

Quote from: phaseofplay on August 1, 2012, 06:07:21 AM

It's not as simple as saying "playing a high line" though. When the ball is lost, the backline will push up or drop depending on the level of pressure on the ball. If there is no-one pressing, the line will drop 5 yards, regardless of what Rodgers "prefers" to do. On the other hand, when the ball is won, the backline will drop and split, to create depth and support, in order to open space in the middle. This is the key to the possession game. Think of it like an accordian, expanding when we have the ball, contracting when we don't.

I agree with what you are saying, however I suppose we are talking semantics as what I'm really getting at is playing a "higher" line than what we have played in the last 2 seasons. Of course, if there is no one in a position to press on the ball, then the high line is compromised because really the two go hand in hand don't they? Without a high line, pressing is a waste of energy and teams will just pass you all over the park. Conversely, if you play a high defensive line and your more attacking players don't harry and hassle the opposition defenders, you are going to be picked apart like last night's leftover chicken dinner.

Squeezing a team out of possession is a really effective approach most of the time, as long as your CBs, and especially your GK, are relatively mobile. "Give them an inch, they'll take a mile" used to be one of my cliches in the changing rooms when trying to encourage a pressing game, and a high line, and I think its as valid as ever. Dropping deep (like hoof and hope) should, and will this season, I expect, be an option of last resort.

Anyway, back on topic, I don't think anyone can argue with the fact that Carra is going to be less comfortable with a higher line approach than any of our other CBs, including most of our reserves and youth players.

DanA · « **Reply #15 on:** August 1, 2012, 06:34:06 AM »

Quote from: vivabobbygraham on August 1, 2012, 04:09:50 AM

Read the post lad. The op is talking about killing off a game with Carra from the bench. That is a negative impact when your back is to the wall defending a lead. That turns into a positive if we win.

Carroll is another one. Defending corners and set pieces but also dangerous at the other end.

An attacking alternative from the bench would be Downing. He is versatile down either flanks. If you can see an area to exploit stick him on and demand he attacks that area. I'm hoping BR restores his confidence this seaon. Early doors in the season he can come off the bench and deliver.

Good call on Carroll as a defensive impact player, didn't think about it at the time but he definately does make an impact. The amount of times we saw him win headers in defence for me was clearly noticable. Certainly gave me confidence from defensive corners though I was always more worried about Adam at the near post once Lucas went down.

Reckon Downing's a bad call. I think he can have a much better season, maybe even turn it around and prove to be a good signing for us but I don't think he'll ever be a game changer. He doesn't want that kind of pressure, he's the type that can put in consistent performances but will always shy's away from taking "the buzzer shot".

Kovai Red · « **Reply #16 on:** August 1, 2012, 06:39:38 AM »

Pacheco, Sterling, Bellamy and Coates are the ones who spring to mind. And Carroll, if he stays with us.

Phil M · « **Reply #17 on:** August 1, 2012, 10:01:02 AM »

lorenzo23 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 1, 2012, 10:25:51 AM »

Quote from: vivabobbygraham on August 1, 2012, 04:09:50 AM

Read the post lad. The op is talking about killing off a game with Carra from the bench. That is a negative impact when your back is to the wall defending a lead. That turns into a positive if we win.

Carroll is another one. Defending corners and set pieces but also dangerous at the other end.

An attacking alternative from the bench would be Downing. He is versatile down either flanks. If you can see an area to exploit stick him on and demand he attacks that area. I'm hoping BR restores his confidence this seaon. Early doors in the season he can come off the bench and deliver.

We will so won't we many said Carra was fine last year wonder how that turned out.

lorenzo23 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 1, 2012, 10:28:32 AM »

Quote from: iamrobk on August 1, 2012, 04:10:26 AM

Eccleston showed good pace and skill in the Reserves playing on the wing. Woulda liked to see him get some time there this pre-season instead of only at striker, think it'd suit him better anyway.We'll see. I've watched the 3 Spurs friendlies since they've all been on TV in the US, and it's been interesting to compare their pre-season with ours. Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas already has them playing a high line, while Rodgers, if he wants one at all, hasn't seemed to have instructed our players to do so. I don't recall Swansea ever really playing a high line anyway.

Guess you watched different game to me in a first game specially Carra was camped on 18 yard box or few meters away from it most of match While is second half we played much higher up that is why he got hit on counter and the team scored but hey we don't play high line and swansea CB was no bring the ball out and passing game i sure Carra will be able to change his game.

Euskadi · « **Reply #20 on:** August 1, 2012, 10:47:00 AM »

i could really see Morgan having a strong impact vis pressing the opposition higher up the pitch when we are a goal up, hes got so much energy and doesnt just run around like a headless chicken either. ( of course id like to make it clear that i see Morgan as one of our top future prospects and undoubtedly has alot more to his game than that)

jackbird_lfc · « **Reply #21 on:** August 1, 2012, 10:47:30 AM »

Luis Garcia.

Il Capitano · « **Reply #22 on:** August 1, 2012, 10:52:28 AM »

The only impact Carragher would have off the bench would be to make a game-changing mistake.

SpartanRed · « **Reply #23 on:** August 1, 2012, 12:28:54 PM »

Bellamy / Sterling / Shelvey (who IMO should start alot more this year) / Carroll / Borini could all come off the bench and make a strong impact.

Don't agree with Carra. For me - barring an injury to Skrtel or Dagger - it would make more sense to shore up the midfield by sticking on another DM (a position we still need to buy additional cover for) if we're trying to protect a lead with 10-15mins to go for example. If a CB change is required then I would rather see Coates come on. He's not got the experience of Carra but he needs to be given the game time in this type of situation in order to learn & develop to improve his level.

Quote from: Il Capitano on August 1, 2012, 10:52:28 AM

The only impact Carragher would have off the bench would be to make a game-changing mistake.

Il Capitano · « **Reply #24 on:** August 1, 2012, 03:28:09 PM »

Quote from: SpartanRed on August 1, 2012, 12:28:54 PM

Don't agree with Carra. For me - barring an injury to Skrtel or Dagger - it would make more sense to shore up the midfield by sticking on another DM (a position we still need to buy additional cover for) if we're trying to protect a lead with 10-15mins to go for example. If a CB change is required then I would rather see Coates come on. He's not got the experience of Carra but he needs to be given the game time in this type of situation in order to learn & develop to improve his level.

Totally agree mate, Coates not only provides an aerial presence to deal with any long-ball pressure on the defence, but is also technically competent and composed on the ball, can read the play well and is also pacier than Carragher. Carragher has a tendency of rushes of blood to the head when others make mistakes in defence rather than having the composure to read the play properly and see out the threat - just take a look at his reaction to Spearing falling over away at Brighton in the League Cup last season, where Carragher's first instinct was to charge in, slide tackle Vicente recklessly and give away a penalty when all we had to do was to see out the game in defence with our 2-goal cushion.

Given the way bad decisions are being repeatedly made at the club though, I can see Carragher being third choice centre-back over Coates again and playing 40-50% of our matches again, whilst our highly talented giant Uruguayan centre back is probably alienated, pushed out the door and made a scapegoat like all the other foreign talent at the club is.