Author Topic: FSG: Taking the easy way out (Read 9454 times)

Finn Solomon · « **Reply #40 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:41:03 PM »

Quote from: Acaustiq on July 16, 2012, 08:35:38 PM

It's not a case of getting involved, it's a case of doing due diligence on the people you employ to handle such things.

Allowing someone to spend £35m because Billy Beane said so without knowing that the guy has a track record of wasting huge sums on similar types of transactions is something they have to shoulder an element of responsibility for.

If they hadn't replaced Torres immediately after he left, there would have been blood on the walls. Now it looks like a bad decision, but that's the magic of hindsight for you.

geoffstrong · « **Reply #41 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:41:13 PM »

well for me they hired Kenny to ingratiate themselves with a lot of fans with negative opinions of any owners, they bought Carroll to show they were not the previous owners and that ingratiates themselves with the same negative fans. Easy way in not out!

Carroll was as much an expensive statement to the fanbase and a bit of a gamble JH felt they could afford as he said it was Chelsea's money his words not mine!

JH had no intention of using Kenny long term he was a stop gap he is not a fir for their major long term planning for success, he simply could not be got rid of after his first few months but for me they showed their true colours when they happily sat back and watched the Suarez shite only hit Kenny's fan, so they got rid of Kenny but not Ayres over that and on some rubbish about league position against cup wins, a convenient reason to satisfy some fans here.

This season will be interesting i hope for success and will back Rogers, but should we finish 8th and win nothing should he be sacked?

My gut feeling is he is their man so he will be given more leeway and time that Kenny got.

One of these · « **Reply #42 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:44:11 PM »

Quote from: Redeo on July 16, 2012, 08:34:47 PM

So, you accept that the FSG were brave and did not take an easy way out by firing one Kenny Dalglish. I agree with you there.

If you could forget about the team issue for a moment, would you say that firing one Kenny Dalglish and replacing him with a young, titleless, no-managerial-experience-at-a-top-club manager was also an EASY way out?

Read what Werner said about what they wanted to do and compare it to what they got. They acted as though getting Rodgers was more important than all they said about getting a collegiate management together. That's the easy way out.

walshys_mullet · « **Reply #43 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:47:22 PM »

Sod em. Don't trust them that's what I say. Keep your eyes open and don't buy into the b.s.

I think they are a disaster waiting to happen, and if it goes pear shaped again they'll take the money and run.

Redeo · « **Reply #44 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:49:18 PM »

Quote from: geoffstrong on July 16, 2012, 08:41:13 PM

well for me they hired Kenny to ingratiate themselves with a lot of fans with negative opinions of any owners, they bought Carroll to show they were not the previous owners and that ingratiates themselves with the same negative fans.

For me, they hired Kenny because it became obvious they needed to fire Hodgson and they were not strategically prepared yet (not enough research on footballing philosophy, club organization, etc.) to hire somebody they knew the would ultimately want.
They bought Carroll because Kenny and Commolli wanted Carroll and because the purchase fit within the budget (in light of Torres sale).

One of these · « **Reply #45 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:50:37 PM »

Quote from: walshys_mullet on July 16, 2012, 08:47:22 PM

Sod em. Don't trust them that's what I say. Keep your eyes open and don't buy into the b.s.

I think they are a disaster waiting to happen, and if it goes pear shaped again they'll take the money and run.

couldn't disagree more. They have the potential to be the best owners in the league, but they've made a lot (too many?) compromises on their original vision. They desperately need to get lucky now otherwise the whole project looks like a waste of time.

Number 7 · « **Reply #46 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:50:44 PM »

I don't think they've taken the easy way out by hiring Rodgers. I didn't see a queue forming outside Melwood's with the world's top 5 managers lobbying to become the next manager of Liverpool FC. They've worked under our current predicament. We are not in the position to be competing at the top end of the market.

Kenny was never their man, neither was Hodgson. They've got their man in now, and we haven't yet kicked a ball.

Yes, they've made mistakes, but they trusted Kenny and Comolli. They backed them in the transfer market, and we finished 8th. They consequently thought that Comolli was a mistake, and decided to move on from Kenny. How is that taking the easy way out?

They did make a mistake with the Carroll purchase, but do you think they decided that on a whim without any advice? I think they felt pressured to splash out before the window ended, because we needed a replacement. In hindsight, they probably realize now they could have waited until the summer. But they would have also risked the fan backlash, having sold our star striker and not replaced him.

The last regime had left the club in such a mess that it was never going to change overnight. What was the point in buying the club and taking the easy way out? And if they wanted to take the easy way and consequently sell, how exactly are they going to do that without increasing the value of their asset? The only way they can do that is make this club competitive again and increase it's worth. That doesn't equate to taking the easy way out.

Acaustiq · « **Reply #47 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:50:59 PM »

Quote from: Finn Solomon on July 16, 2012, 08:41:03 PM

If they hadn't replaced Torres immediately after he left, there would have been blood on the walls. Now it looks like a bad decision, but that's the magic of hindsight for you.

We've no way of knowing if that's true have we, if Kenny had said 'the money is there for the summer' surely most would have accepted that.

Thinking signing Andy Carroll for £35m is a bad idea isn't hindsight, I wasn't watching much football at the time and I'd never heard of him, when we knew Torres was off no one here was suggesting him either.

Upinsmoke · « **Reply #48 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:51:17 PM »

People make mistakes. Kenny. FSG, playing staff. Its easy to blame anyone in hindsight isnt it.

geoffstrong · « **Reply #49 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:51:45 PM »

Quote from: Redeo on July 16, 2012, 08:49:18 PM

For me, they hired Kenny because it became obvious they needed to fire Hodgson and they were not strategically prepared yet (not enough research on footballing philosophy, club organization, etc.) to hire somebody they knew the would ultimately want.
They bought Carroll because Kenny and Commolli wanted Carroll and because the purchase fit within the budget (in light of Torres sale).

point one so you agree a stop gap appointment
point two I think you only have part of the reasons for the Carroll deal.

Filler. · « **Reply #50 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:56:52 PM »

OP... you have a bow, and a set of arrows, (I like your bow, and I like your arrows) but I don't think you hit the target once there.

cowtownred · « **Reply #51 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:58:49 PM »

Quote from: walshys_mullet on July 16, 2012, 08:47:22 PM

Sod em. Don't trust them that's what I say. Keep your eyes open and don't buy into the b.s.

I think they are a disaster waiting to happen, and if it goes pear shaped again they'll take the money and run.

Sadly, I agree.

What the fuck must Moores be thinking (if he is any longer capable of thinking?). Sold up because he couldn't afford the new stadium we needed to 'compete'? Wonder how much money we have blown on nothing whatsoever since he sold out, and a stadium (if you ever wanted one) further away than ever.

we must be down a couple of hundred million on drawings, architect fees, manager compensation etc etc etc....... and dropping rapidly from a Champions League winning season to, likely a scrap for 6th place now. And no stadium.

Redeo · « **Reply #52 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:59:18 PM »

Quote from: One of these on July 16, 2012, 08:44:11 PM

Read what Werner said about what they wanted to do and compare it to what they got. They acted as though getting Rodgers was more important than all they said about getting a collegiate management together. That's the easy way out.

I know very well what Werner said and what FSG's intentions were at the time they went seeking Kenny's replacement. They wanted to build a novel structure with a team of people who shared responsibility and were overseen by a DoF figure of high stature as in Luis van Gaal. They realized, however, that was impossible. Cruyff didn't want to get involved and they realized that the structure could not be stable with a person of van Gaal's temper and dominance. Realizing something is impossible, however, doesn't make it an "easy way out."

You still didn't answer my question

Quote from: Redeo on July 16, 2012, 08:34:47 PM

If you could forget about the team issue for a moment, would you say that firing one Kenny Dalglish and replacing him with a young, titleless, no-managerial-experience-at-a-top-club manager was also an EASY way out?

Any sensible, informed person would have to answer that question negatively. Rodgers was not and continues not to be an EASY way out. Hiring RAFA would've been.

DyingAtheist · « **Reply #53 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:01:38 PM »

If Carroll had set the world alight, scoring every game, would the owners still have to take part of the blame/honour for bringing him in?
Would they hell.

Again, I'm all for holding the owners accountable for mistakes they make.
But so far I'm not hearing any, transfers certainly aren't. They brought in football people because there were intelligent enough to realise they're not exactly proficient in the sport. When those football people (Commolli, Kenny et al.) proved to make some poor choices, suddenly it's FSG's fault? They backed the men they thought were best for the job, you can't ask anything more of them, you certainly can't deride them for it.

PS : How is hiring Rodgers the easy option? He's controversial, clearly isn't a "yes man" due to how he thought against a DOF, he rejected them once and has a very specific style that he wants to set up. HOW is that the easy way out!?

One of these · « **Reply #54 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:02:45 PM »

Hiring Rodgers wasn't the easy way out, dumping their strategy and hiring Rodgers instead was.

Live in the Now · « **Reply #55 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:05:11 PM »

Kenny was originally a stopgap, but when the team performed for him things changed. At some point in time FSG had a lot of faith in him and sanctioned the transfers he wanted although some of them went against what supposedly was their philosophy.

I don't think FSG have taken the easy way out on anything, what they have done is cocked things up and made things more difficult for themselves. Everything that has happened the last two months just made their job more difficult. Hopefully everything can get back on the right track.

Redeo · « **Reply #56 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:08:26 PM »

Can't believe people are blaming the owners for the Carroll deal. Whoever blames FSG for the Carroll deal is basically saying that Kenny Dalglish was stupid enough to be hired as a marionette-manager assuming all responsibility for poor performances while the owners would control player purchases. Kenny NEVER suggested owners had any input, and in fact clearly stated that Comolli was getting the players he wanted, including Carroll.

RojoLeón · « **Reply #57 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:11:58 PM »

Kenny was interim, temporary manager when Carroll was signed. And Comolli was permanent Director of Football.

So why does Kenny get the heat?

Filler. · « **Reply #58 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:12:47 PM »

Quote from: One of these on July 16, 2012, 09:02:45 PM

Hiring Rodgers wasn't the easy way out, dumping their strategy and hiring Rodgers instead was.

It wasn't tho was it? The easy way would have been to give it to Capello. Or AV-B. Look at the new owners of Notts Forest... those new owners are doing it the easy way. They've gone for a 'big name', and in 6 months time they'll go for a 'bigger' one.

Really don't think they took the easy option here. What they didn't do, was to extend their PR towards Rodgers by giving him a decent contract, and not the 'Forest' one that he was offered.

exiledintheusa · « **Reply #59 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:14:26 PM »

Will judge them after this season, they let their hearts lead their heads for a season or so........now they are showing they are in control, lets see what happens during the rest of this window, January if needed and more importantly where we are at the end of this season.

apocalypse · « **Reply #60 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:14:36 PM »

How can you blame the owners, guys who admitted to knowing little about football, for providing money to buy someone the football guys wanted? That's one of the things the previous got stick for and rightly so. And sacking Kenny and hiring an inexperienced manager aren't "easy" decisions.

Carlos: Very Kickable · « **Reply #61 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:16:36 PM »

Surely taking the easy way out is taking low risk popular decisions?

Selling Torres, spunking 35 million on Carroll and sacking Kenny and replacing him with Swansea's inexperienced manager hardly qualify for that do they?

lorenzo23 · « **Reply #62 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:17:10 PM »

Come on now, we not allowed twitter thread where there is loads of "ITK" telling everyone that will read about there great information on the club

but we allowed this thread???

Redeo · « **Reply #63 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:20:17 PM »

Quote from: One of these on July 16, 2012, 09:02:45 PM

Hiring Rodgers wasn't the easy way out, dumping their strategy and hiring Rodgers instead was.

Dumping of the strategy suggested the FSG did not quite well think through the difficulties of implementing what they wanted to implement. It suggested they had big ideas, but that they were naive somewhat about difficulties associated with implementing a type of structure Barcelona implemented gradually and over an extended period of time.

When they rolled out their strategy, I liked the fact they went for the jugular and wanted to implement and even further BUILD ON the best system in world football. I was quite disappointed with their naivete. I hope they learned the lesson and will not trash the plans but seek to gradually build on them over the next decade or so through an in-house sort of process.

Good for you to admit that firing Kenny was NOT an easy way out.
Good for you to also admit that hiring Rodgers was NOT an easy way out.

I agree with you that dumping of their strategy was very poor. I don't think, however, it showed the FSG taking "an easy way out." To me, it showed their naivete.

One of these · « **Reply #64 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:23:55 PM »

Quote from: Carlos Qiqabal on July 16, 2012, 09:16:36 PM

Surely taking the easy way out is taking low risk popular decisions?

Selling Torres, spunking 35 million on Carroll and sacking Kenny and replacing him with Swansea's inexperienced manager hardly qualify for that do they?

they do if they cut force you to compromise your philosophy. Sacking Kenny was never the easy way out, but bottling the DoF and allowing Rodgers to be more more important than the system was. I think a lot of this actually lands at Ayre's door, particularly rolling over to Chelsea over Meireles and Toon over Carroll.

geoffstrong · « **Reply #65 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:27:59 PM »

Quote from: RojoLeón on July 16, 2012, 09:11:58 PM

Kenny was interim, temporary manager when Carroll was signed. And Comolli was permanent Director of Football.

So why does Kenny get the heat?

it suits the ones that moaned about him in every game thread.

Johnnyboy1973 · « **Reply #66 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:28:42 PM »

Just stumbling along really.

Jagged Princess · « **Reply #67 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:30:10 PM »

Quote from: One of these on July 16, 2012, 08:50:37 PM

couldn't disagree more. They have the potential to be the best owners in the league, but they've made a lot (too many?) compromises on their original vision. They desperately need to get lucky now otherwise the whole project looks like a waste of time.

What was their original vision or strategy? From what I can see they used Kenny to keep the fans on side after the disaster of Hodgson. They had no intention whatsoever of him fulfilling a 3 year contract and January's media fiasco proved to be the excuse they needed to get rid of him. Something a lot of us won't forgive them for and for that and lack of stadium decision I'm with Walshy when he says he doesn't trust them and yes we need to be watchful.

RojoLeón · « **Reply #68 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:31:30 PM »

I thought this was an interesting quote about ability and aptness for leadership.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord#section_1

Quote

I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and diligent -- their place is the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief

Well, to give the benefit of doubt: I think Henry falls into the brilliant and lazy category (lets be fair, when was the last time he did a hard or honest days work in his life and is self made wealthy beyond most people's dreams - that takes a lot of smarts). Henry doesn't shy from making hard and bold decisions.

The last type described fits Ayre: hard working and incompetent. He is a danger to us all and must be stopped.

DyingAtheist · « **Reply #69 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:33:51 PM »

Quote from: RojoLeón on July 16, 2012, 09:31:30 PM

The last type described fits Ayre: hard working and incompetent. He is a danger to us all and must be stopped.

This made me laugh far harder than it should have.
I can see the pitchforks and torches coming out. (Not that I'm complaining)

cowtownred · « **Reply #70 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:34:16 PM »

Quote from: geoffstrong on July 16, 2012, 09:27:59 PM

it suits the ones that moaned about him in every game thread.

And can't say they weren't warned either. They were implored to wind in from October...but they were 'entitled to their opinion' and didn't have their 'heads in the sand like youse auld fuckers' either. And on goes the carousel.

I'll give Rodgers 8 games til it starts again. Actually, make that 6.

I, having boycotted for the Hicks years, have decided I probably won't go back again.

John C · « **Reply #71 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:34:22 PM »

Quote from: One of these on July 16, 2012, 07:51:18 PM

So will Rodgers succeed? He better, because FSG's easy answers are getting harder to take.

Ah shucks and here was I just looking forward to our first friendly and I'm having to worry about our manager already.

Reds and Revs · « **Reply #72 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:35:47 PM »

Quote from: One of these on July 16, 2012, 08:17:24 PM

but they're not, they threw all their ideas out of the window to get Rodgers, it's the same tactic. It may work out, but they're still not following their strategy.

Which coach mentioned, or in that region of attractiveness, do you think was willing to work under the "board idea"?

Outer Mongolian Red · « **Reply #73 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:38:17 PM »

Quote from: walshys_mullet on July 16, 2012, 08:47:22 PM

Sod em. Don't trust them that's what I say. Keep your eyes open and don't buy into the b.s.

I think they are a disaster waiting to happen, and if it goes pear shaped again they'll take the money and run.

Agree.

mart356 · « **Reply #74 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:43:00 PM »

Getting fucking tired of people criticizing FSG. They've done nothing wrong since they came in, and now people are blaming them for poor signings? How us that their fault?!? They allowed us to spend a lot of money, and it was down to Kenny and comolli to use it well. And you knnow what? They didn't, they fucked it up and wasted so much money. Fsg are blameless in that respect.

RojoLeón · « **Reply #75 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:44:10 PM »

Quote from: DyingAtheist on July 16, 2012, 09:33:51 PM

This made me laugh far harder than it should have.
I can see the pitchforks and torches coming out. (Not that I'm complaining)

I have respect for (Henry's) ability to make hard and fast decisions. I think that some of them have been wrong and again, I respect that he has addressed them quickly. I would be more confident if he had someone more able than Ayre effectively running the club day to day: weak, stupid but dilligent. He should have gone in the cull that saw Cotton, Comolli and Kenny sacked. By promoting him, ge has ensured that the odds are stacked against Brendy before a ball is kicked. I think we'll be back here in May watching another expensive cull of staff unfold.

Carlos: Very Kickable · « **Reply #76 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:45:36 PM »

Blaming FSG is taking the easy way out.

The G in Gerrard · « **Reply #77 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:45:53 PM »

Damned if they do and damned if they don't. I don't mind them to be honest.

apocalypse · « **Reply #78 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:46:32 PM »

Quote from: RojoLeón on July 16, 2012, 09:11:58 PM

Kenny was interim, temporary manager when Carroll was signed. And Comolli was permanent Director of Football.

So why does Kenny get the heat?

Comolli got most of the heat and was the first out the door and rightly so. Kenny was permanent manager during last summer transfers so deserves blame for that.

Fromola · « **Reply #79 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:47:30 PM »

Quote from: west_london_red on July 16, 2012, 07:58:22 PM

They took the easy way out by either listening to fans or worrying what fans thought, thats where they have gone wrong if anywhere.

Fans don't think collectively. Different fans have different opinions. Kenny coming back as caretaker was a no-brainer at the time as we were desperate. He did that well that they gave him the job full time in the lack of many other decent candidates. Although they could have waited till the end of the season and assessed it properly instead of rushing into a decision before the season even finished.

Comolli was a total disaster. Putting a scout in charge of all transfer negotiations. Hanging onto Hodgson too long was a mistake. Not hiring a CEO in 2 years has been a massive mistake and was a big cause of the Suarez fiasco.

Continually promoting the hapless Ian Ayre and asking him to take on a different job every few months is ludicrous when he should have just been left on the commercial side of things.

They haven't got a clue about football, but they don't need to have: they need to employ people who know the game inside out and who are successful in what they do. So far they've totally failed to do this.