Topic: A clumsy post - This Brendan bloke and Kenny.

[Reds4Life]

Didn't contradict myself at all.
Heart is all well and good, and it served us well in Istanbul. But Istanbul is a long time ago now, and the footballing landscape has changed entirely. In order to hit such heights again we need the money that comes in from marketing, without it we simply won't get there again, not sure how that's complicated.
As for your other post; my point from the start has been that despite the marketing of the club, the plastification of it if you will, that the same red heartbeat is still there underneath it all and that will never go away. Marketing and all the other stuff is a necessary evil but it still doesn't change the foundation of the club we love.

I didn't ask you about Istanbul mate, I asked you to consider how we got there in the first place.

Was it a "World Class" squad dripping with World Cup winners assembled for billions of pounds or a squad that was largely written off as no realistic chance that swept to Istanbul on this wave of momentum a cup run creates?

That was where the contradiction lay.

I am not so sure that I agree with the marketing comment. I am willing to agree to disagree on this to an extent.

Youth academy? Football philosophy instilled consistently throughout the club. Identify quality youth players that fit the system.

Athletic Bilbao showed just last season how a small club can reach a final without hardly spending money on players and placing it's trust in it's philosophy and system. Just committed players respecting who they are representing and what that means.

[Reds4Life]

If the game all boils down to money and marketing it just won't be the beautiful game no longer in my eyes. The beauty lies in its unpredictably on pitch and off the pitch. As an avid Rangers fan, i like many am looking forward to a fresh start in the 3rd division. Fuck the money and all the moneymen who run the club before, we live on. 

Bang on. Sorry to see what has happened to you lads. Never a good day to see a proud club destroyed like that (and I'm a Catholic)

I'm not trying to incite a riot but corporation football without "consumers" is nothing.

[DyingAtheist]

I didn't ask you about Istanbul mate, I asked you to consider how we got there in the first place.

Was it a "World Class" squad dripping with World Cup winners assembled for billions of pounds or a squad that was largely written off as no realistic chance that swept to Istanbul on this wave of momentum a cup run creates?

That was where the contradiction lay.

I am not so sure that I agree with the marketing comment. I am willing to agree to disagree on this to an extent.

Youth academy? Football philosophy instilled consistently throughout the club. Identify quality youth players that fit the system.

Athletic Bilbao showed just last season how a small club can reach a final without hardly spending money on players and placing it's trust in it's philosophy and system. Just committed players respecting who they are representing and what that means.

I may have been a bit overzealous when I said nights like Istanbul certainly won't happen without the marketing, but I think we all know that our chances do decrease if we don't do it. And the fact is, though Istanbul was an amazing one-off night anyway, as years go by it's just going to get harder and harder to pull off nights like that if you're not keeping up financially.
I know teams manage it occasionally, especially in the cups (though Bilbao hardly reached the Champs League final) and that's the nature of cups, giant killings and such things. The league for example though becomes more and more difficult if we don't have the revenue streams our competitors do, and whichever way you look at it, if we don't finish in the top 4 then we don't have Istanbul.

[keyo]

I may have been a bit overzealous when I said nights like Istanbul certainly won't happen without the marketing, but I think we all know that our chances do decrease if we don't do it. And the fact is, though Istanbul was an amazing one-off night anyway, as years go by it's just going to get harder and harder to pull off nights like that if you're not keeping up financially.
I know teams manage it occasionally, especially in the cups (though Bilbao hardly reached the Champs League final) and that's the nature of cups, giant killings and such things. The league for example though becomes more and more difficult if we don't have the revenue streams our competitors do, and whichever way you look at it, if we don't finish in the top 4 then we don't have Istanbul.

we talk about money, marketing, merchandising, revenues, etc.....as if they are the path to glory, but in my opinion such talk is putting the cart before the horse...lfc has consistently been in the top 10 (certainly top 20) revenue generators in world football, we have a truckload of revenue that has been generated off the back of a massive fanbase and previous successes....harnessing that and bridging the growing gap to clubs who have outstripped us in recent years is about bringing in efficiencies and practices within the clubs operations to maximise the revenues and use of them

that does not take away from the need to focus on the football side, ensure that all the attention to the way the football club operates is optimum, to ensure the greatest chances of sustainable success....this alone will help increase revenues from marketing and merchandising, along with tv revenues and prize money

to take the istanbul example, benitez showed what can be achieved with a first team squad when focus and attention to detail is applied, extending that to make lfc the number 1 ranked club in european competition, and challenges for the league......off pitch distractions and raiding of the clubs coffers meant the football challenge was unsustainable....imagine if h&g never came along, and moores stayed in charge, we would continue to struggle under the incompentancies of coco and moores' restricted financing, but we would have had less turmoil and benitez would have sustained greater focus....ultimately without the financing improvements our success would have been limited, but the pattern should be clear, we are not going to get a cash injection from a sugar daddy like city did, so we will have to generate our own success and our own revenue increases, waiting for the cash to come in from increased marketing initiatives will make little impact without success on the pitch, and that does not just happen, regardless of how good rodgers is or turns out to be

[Shanks1965]

We'll judge Rodgers at the end of the season. I'm not seeing this - he'll play this way, he'll play that way, pressing, passing, Barcelona speculative clap trap. Sit back, take it in and we'll all come back next May and sort it then.

Semantics I know but I'd prefer to say review rather than judge because as you know this is going to take a lot longer than a season to sort out. So unless we have a disastorous one he'll be judged in a few years time in my view. Or ought to be.

[keyo]

one add on i would say about money, marketing, etc, and goes to the heart of the cautionary tale that fat scouser and others keep going back to....yes money has always part of the club, yes money making is at the heart of nearly every owner, no we are not impacted only by the money and the owners, in fact we largely never paid attention to them for years, and yes there is a need to compete financially.......but football IS big business, we are still the same (well,....), and it is essentially "our (the fans)" game, but there is ALOT of money floating around and that makes every club a target for every flim flam artist from hicks and gillette to craig whyte to ali al-faraj and this is where the crux is....there IS money to be made out of football, and whilst the people i mention done it in a way that was less than ethical (50 milion pounds in "stadium consultant fees" and however many millions in "expenses") there are just as many taking ways of taking money out of a club legitimately......so whilst fsg may turn out to be an excellent owner, for everyone who answers a complaint or dissenting view of the owners with "just wait and seee, give them a chance" i would say there is too at stake to just trust any owners without holding them to account and holding all decisions to scrutiny.....i mean, if you can't trust a bank, who the fuck can you trust?!?!

anyway, sorry, just a little off topic but thought it worth a place here if only because the view of how some on here are characterised as outdated and outmoded for their opinions on football trends and modern day financing in football

[keyo]

Semantics I know but I'd prefer to say review rather than judge because as you know this is going to take a lot longer than a season to sort out. So unless we have a disastorous one he'll be judged in a few years time in my view. Or ought to be.

agree with both of you, think rodgers deserves time to put plans in to place without too much pressure from us and also without too much undue praise setting out.....and for his actions and decisions to be reviewed a little more rationally than has been the case so far

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

Of course Dying Atheist is right. Money is important to us because we have to compete with our rivals for the best players. Even having big stadiums isn't enough to compete when our rivals have hundreds of thousands of fans worldwide.

Marketing is especially crucial given the fact we have a smaller gate receipt and bigger wage bill than many of the teams surrounding us. We were the first team to have sponsors on our shirts - is there seriously even a debate about this?

[west_london_red]

Of course Dying Atheist is right. Money is important to us because we have to compete with our rivals for the best players. Even having big stadiums isn't enough to compete when our rivals have hundreds of thousands of fans worldwide.

Marketing is especially crucial given the fact we have a smaller gate receipt and bigger wage bill than many of the teams surrounding us. We were the first team to have sponsors on our shirts - is there seriously even a debate about this?

There shouldnt be, but there will be. Some people will just mistrust anything and anyone that doesnt date back to the glory days.

[steveeastend]

What I don´t like about this american tour is that it obviously damages the pre season and preperation for the first euro league game.

This is one example of putting marketing before football matters. And that´s not a good thing at all. We are a football club, not a travelling circus.

[keyo]

There shouldnt be, but there will be. Some people will just mistrust anything and anyone that doesnt date back to the glory days.

and this is the sort of thing i was on about....amazing how you can be quite so dismissive of fans who actually did create the image of being the most knowledgeable around.........interesting when you compare to what you see on a daily basis in here, eh?

[Fat Scouser]

Like I said, the game's always been about money. The club was formed because of an argument over it. Titles have always been won by the big spenders. We smashed the transfer record to get Kenny. We made John Barnes the highest paid player in the league at his time. But anyone who doesn't see the difference between what has gone on since 1892 and now, is either thick or doesn't want to know.

The fact is, FSG have dragged us firmly into the age of moneyball. To the powers that be, balance sheets have always been more important than league tables. But it's now all about maximising them revenues through image. I wish Brendan Rodgers nothing but success. You won't see me slagging the lad. But I know full well, Shankly and Rafa wouldn't haven't got the job.

Still, despite FSG dragging us into the brave new age of 4th is our bread and butter, I still want LFC to win everything. But I won't be buying Le Bron trainees and watching Help I'm A Kopite, Get Me Out The Football Family wrapped in me LFC cape. There was a time when we were more than a brand.

[redk84]

Kenny was the only person who could have steadied the ship after those last owners...

For that I will be forever grateful.

He got us to two cup finals...and even though the league position in the end was disappointing...we did play some really good stuff in my opinion..

Rodgers may not get the money straight away but he will get respect that every manager of this club should get.

We'll see what happens.

[keyo]

Like I said, the game's always been about money. The club was formed because of an argument over it. Titles have always been won by the big spenders. We smashed the transfer record to get Kenny. We made John Barnes the highest paid player in the league at his time. But anyone who doesn't see the difference between what has gone on since 1892 and now, is either thick or doesn't want to know.

The fact is, FSG have dragged us firmly into the age of moneyball. To the powers that be, balance sheets have always been more important than league tables. But it's now all about maximising them revenues through image. I wish Brendan Rodgers nothing but success. You won't see me slagging the lad. But I know full well, Shankly and Rafa wouldn't haven't got the job.

Still, despite FSG dragging us into the brave new age of 4th is our bread and butter, I still want LFC to win everything. But I won't be buying Le Bron trainees and watching Help I'm A Kopite, Get Me Out The Football Family wrapped in me LFC cape. There was a time when we were more than a brand.

the only disagreement is that fsg have done no dragging here, or if they have it is dragging behind a whole load of other, more opportunistic owners.....sky brought about the beginning of football in 1992 and since then football has been chasing the dragon (pound signs) ever since.... the owners copped on to the money making ability of football after a while, recognising that as much as transfers and wages made football look like a horrendous loss leader, there was always the sell-on......and boy, how it has grown....football is a bankers dream, financed by debt there are massive interest payments to meet, and then there are the banking facilities, and the guaranteed pay out at the end of the pyramid.....all very cosy

who cares if clubs established over a hundred years ago go to the wall....if a bank can......

[didi]

Kenny made me feel what is was to be like a supporter again, only he could do that, that feeling you know that you get and that was missing since Rafa left

[stevied]

What I don´t like about this american tour is that it obviously damages the pre season and preperation for the first euro league game.

This is one example of putting marketing before football matters. And that´s not a good thing at all. We are a football club, not a travelling circus.

Whats the difference with going to US instead of Far East, in my book the States is a better option

[Fat Scouser]

the only disagreement is that fsg have done no dragging here

I do disagree with you on that mate. I know commercialism completely took over football years back. I know it's always existed. The cloth cap conscession on The Kop must have been worth more than the McNasty's franchises back in the 1800's. But until Rafa was sacked we seemed to be different than the rest. I know that's me romanticising the old Liverpool Way, but there's no illusion now. LFC are a brand that's owned by FSG and it will be marketed in any way they see fit. And to maximise it's profits, the club will have to become part of the happy clappy, shiny football family. As Don Vito Corleone said, it's nothing personal. It's just business.   

[keyo]

Whats the difference with going to US instead of Far East, in my book the States is a better option

i assme we could have gone to europe, insread of the far east...or played a few games in england.....given that we are playing a europa league in 2 weeks time

[stevied]

i assme we could have gone to europe, insread of the far east...or played a few games in england.....given that we are playing a europa league in 2 weeks time

I would imagine our tour for next year will already be planned, the logistics of tours like this would mean you would have to plan it well in advance of knowing what Euro stage you will be in come July/August, by all accounts the Harvard site we are staying in is one of USA's finest sporting set ups, there will be everything we need here plus pleasing the owners and business partners associated with the club

[keyo]

I do disagree with you on that mate. I know commercialism completely took over football years back. I know it's always existed. The cloth cap conscession on The Kop must have been worth more than the McNasty's franchises back in the 1800's. But until Rafa was sacked we seemed to be different than the rest. I know that's me romanticising the old Liverpool Way, but there's no illusion now. LFC are a brand that's owned by FSG and it will be marketed in any way they see fit. And to maximise it's profits, the club will have to become part of the happy clappy, shiny football family. As Don Vito Corleone said, it's nothing personal. It's just business.   

i get your point, and i think with regard to lfc we lost our virginity when we were gang raped by h&g, and fsg have just come along an taken advantage.....i think in terms of benitez, we supported the club without worrying abou the owners - still criticising mind - but without thinking of  more than the bosses pulling their finger out.

fsg are doing what everyone else has done elsewhere in football, unfortunately our only brush with commercialisation was our rape and removal of innocence.....the only available step was the protectiv arms of a solid corporate citizen........

i personally long for those chaste, awfully ruinous and incompetent days of rick and johnsy....who needs a rich effective owner when ou have one with a whisky nose and a beatles tash!!

[Barry Banana]

Totally agree with the opening post.  We played some great football last year.

I was comfortable with the progression we were making under Kenny.  Our problems could have been remedied with a couple of better attacking players, or those that were here (looking at you, Andy) having a go from day one.  For me a new manager was not the answer.

Rodgers speaks well and as ever, I'm excited for the new season.  But its a new man with a new plan.  Hopefully he'll improve us - but I've no doubt that Kenny would have improved us also.  We shouldn't forget that Kenny got us playing good football again and any improvement made by Rodgers comes as a result of the foundations Kenny laid.

Long live the king.

[hitman89762000]

Well personally i put kenny before the club for the simple reason to me he IS liverpool fc he epitomises what we as a club are (were) all about.

Him getting the boot has really fucked me off but whats worse is the pr machine thats come in since then "brendans the new shanks" "we'll play like barca" "kenny wasted money" "kenny was a pr nightmare"

And to be honest its not just the clubs pr i see it on here and twitter and personally i think its fucking disgraceful everyone just upped and forgot about kenny and embraced the new guy cos he'll have us playing like barca!!

Now i know ya gotta support the team i will be doing always have done but this whole romanticisation of rodgers and giving him names like the new shanks it dont sit right with me. And him changing the this is anfield sign and the  netting aint gonna convince me to accept him as that either.

Kenny is and was the ckub to me and some of ya turned on him.. Thats not who we are ya dont do that to kenny he deserves better.

But eh.. The new shanks eh tiki takka football new barcelona!!

[keyo]

Totally agree with the opening post.  We played some great football last year.

I was comfortable with the progression we were making under Kenny.  Our problems could have been remedied with a couple of better attacking players, or those that were here (looking at you, Andy) having a go from day one.  For me a new manager was not the answer.

Rodgers speaks well and as ever, I'm excited for the new season.  But its a new man with a new plan.  Hopefully he'll improve us - but I've no doubt that Kenny would have improved us also.  We shouldn't forget that Kenny got us playing good football again and any improvement made by Rodgers comes as a result of the foundations Kenny laid.

Long live the king.

i don't disagree with you, and i really do not see the point alot of people have about rodgers, he is the manager get on and see how he goes....the issue is exactly that dalglish being sacked puts rodgers in a really tough position, the fans fwho want him to do well and try just that bit too hard to justify him or those who are looking for fault because he replaced dalglish......he is not thew problem (well, what people see as a problem) so let him get on with it


by the way, trivia question, who appointed shankly?

[Barry Banana]

i don't disagree with you, and i really do not see the point alot of people have about rodgers, he is the manager get on and see how he goes....the issue is exactly that dalglish being sacked puts rodgers in a really tough position, the fans fwho want him to do well and try just that bit too hard to justify him or those who are looking for fault because he replaced dalglish......he is not thew problem (well, what people see as a problem) so let him get on with it


by the way, trivia question, who appointed shankly?

I don't think Dalglish getting sacked puts undue pressure on Rodgers.  Those who wanted Kenny to stay are likely the fans who understand we can't have instant success.  Those who wanted Kenny out will have the knives out for Rodgers if we're not top at Christmas.  And they'd be there regardless of who Rodgers replaced.

Re trivia question - I don't know.  Googling would be cheating.

[scared_person]

It's very naive to suggest that what LFC means hasn't changed since Istanbul. Of course football has changed throughout history and particularly since the advent of the PL, but until H&G and sacking Rafa it always felt like LFC were still a bit old school. We complained then that we were behind the times but with hindsight I'd love us to be behind the times again. The times fucking stink.

The nature of the ownership has changed but I also think that the nature of the support has changed. I genuinely don't know if this is because of the poor performance in the last few years or if the support has materially changed. The best Anfield atmosphere in ages was the Chelsea game after the cup final last season. It was a different crowd of different people and to be honest it was brilliant. The tension was gone and people were enjoying watching the reds. I don't feel many people enjoy going to Anfield any more, at least not in the way they used to do. There seems to be a sense of entitlement, rather than the belief and hope there used to be.

In the last few years Liverpool FC has changed for the worse in many regards. I know many of these things will never get better. I only hope that the most important thing, the spirit and atmosphere generated by the Anfield crowd can be repaired. To be honest they can do all the marketing bullshit they like so long as it doesn't impinge on Anfield. Somehow I doubt that is possible, or even what the owners want.

[Andy @ Allerton]

Like everything, moderation is a blessing.

I don't think that FSG are the evil empire intent on wrecking the club. I also don't think they will sink a ton of money in to make us the best club in Europe. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

I don't think that Rodgers is a shit clueless manager with no idea what he's doing. I also don't think that he's the best manager in the World and a cert to trump every achievement by every other Liverpool manager. Again. The reality is somewhere in the middle.


No one knows anything. And those bits that people think they know will only be proven or disproven as the season progresses. Words are fine. Actions are better. Results are best.

Words can be spoken and can have an impact. Actions prove that the words aren't just words and nothing more and results prove that the words spoken and the action taken are successful.

Let's all just settle down. Take our time. Take the good times as we get them and enjoy them fully. And let's be patient and take the bad times as we should. As a step along the road and hopefully to something and somewhere we want to get to.

This isn't a quick fix and you're done. It's going to take effort, words, actions, commitment and luck. Let's just see where we are in a few years when it matters.

[Fat Scouser]

by the way, trivia question, who appointed shankly?

If I remember rightly, Shankly came to Liverpool because Huddersfield wouldn't give him the money to buy St John and Ron Yeats. We were also the first club to put advertising on our shirts. It's always been about money, but money wasn't what it was all about. There's a difference.

[DyingAtheist]

Well personally i put kenny before the club for the simple reason to me he IS liverpool fc he epitomises what we as a club are (were) all about.

Him getting the boot has really fucked me off but whats worse is the pr machine thats come in since then "brendans the new shanks" "we'll play like barca" "kenny wasted money" "kenny was a pr nightmare"

And to be honest its not just the clubs pr i see it on here and twitter and personally i think its fucking disgraceful everyone just upped and forgot about kenny and embraced the new guy cos he'll have us playing like barca!!

Now i know ya gotta support the team i will be doing always have done but this whole romanticisation of rodgers and giving him names like the new shanks it dont sit right with me. And him changing the this is anfield sign and the  netting aint gonna convince me to accept him as that either.

Kenny is and was the ckub to me and some of ya turned on him.. Thats not who we are ya dont do that to kenny he deserves better.

But eh.. The new shanks eh tiki takka football new barcelona!!

Think you're being a tad dramatic here.
A tiny percentage of people are genuinely suggesting Rodgers is the "new shanks", or that we'll be playing like Barca any time soon, or that Kenny deserves anything less than the perpetual legend status that he has earned.
Sure, some people slagged Kenny off and wanted him gone, but they make up a tiny tiny percentage of supporters and the vast majority of us would rather he was still here.

However, he's not, we've got a new manager to support so that's what we're doing, and to suggest you'd put Kenny before the club is ludicrous. You're putting one man before the club, above the club, and to echo the sentiments of one particularly relevant man...
No one individual is bigger than the club.

[jaffod]

What I don´t like about this american tour is that it obviously damages the pre season and preperation for the first euro league game.

This is one example of putting marketing before football matters. And that´s not a good thing at all. We are a football club, not a travelling circus.

Our pre-season 'preparation' has been a complete shambles for a good few years now. I was hoping someone at the club would have made the connection by now but the ££££ signs obviously get in the way.

[west_london_red]

and this is the sort of thing i was on about....amazing how you can be quite so dismissive of fans who actually did create the image of being the most knowledgeable around.........interesting when you compare to what you see on a daily basis in here, eh?

I dont dismiss what anyone says. I've debated this subject a lot with some of the older posters on here like Fat Scouser and Geoff and I disagree with them on this particular subject, theres no dismissing, they have all been polite and generally well nattured discussions we just have different opinions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, our most successful periods came when we when we were at our most boldest as a club not when we clung on to the past for the sake of holding on to the past.

[KirkVanHouten]

You've figured it out. Kenny was a PR Nightmare waiting to happen, in the eyes of ownership. He had the nerve to actually be straightforward and call a spade a spade. Not the way things are done in the corporate world. LFC is now a corporation with minimal room for independent thought.

It's bit like the player interviews, the idea is that the public want to hear their thoughts and opinions and see what they are like on a personal level rather than just men who kick a ball around in front of thousands of people. But instead they've been coached to do these cookie cutter interviews where "just gotta keep my head down and train hard" is just about the only thing you'll remember about it.

It reminds me a lot of the Rafa situation, in that Kenny would be the one to speak out and tell the truth if he believed something was wrong. Then the clout he had with the fans would be a deciding factor in whatever it was. These owners don't want that, so they decided to replace Kenny with a extremely inexperienced coach who is in awe of the training grounds, let alone the fact that he's manager of one of the greatest football clubs in the world. Why we he speak out? It's the best job he's ever had. I'm not saying this situation will end up like the H&G nightmare, far from it. I just think that the owners didn't like the fact that the manager was such a powerful figure in the fans eyes.

Mate, everyone knows we wont play like Barcelona anytime soon. Infact, we wont even play like Swansea in the very first match. It will take time. Implementation takes more time than designing it. At the start of the season, the players might fail to do so. That doesn't mean Brendan failed to implement his philosophy. To play that way and perfecting that it might take even a complete season. It is about how Rodgers stick with his philosophy and make the players believe that the system will work out eventually.

Edit: Regardless of results and reactions from some sections calling for his head if the results dont go the way we wanted.

Any sensible person will realise that it's going to take time to improve that they're going to have to have patience. That's something a lot of our fans don't have the faintest clue about, patience.

When I read your points about implementation taking time I can't help but feel that if Kenny Dalglish can't get more than a year to prove himself, what chance does Brendan Rodgers have?

Take note of some of the names in this thread who are 'giving Rodgers their support 100%'. Right now, before a ball is kicked, before we hit the post, before we haven't got what we deserved in a game, everybody is behind Rodgers. Watch them bay for his blood when results don't go our way, if we're sitting in 7th at Christmas and don't look like we're remotely close to a top 4 challenge.

[Fat Scouser]

I dont dismiss what anyone says. I've debated this subject a lot with some of the older posters on here like Fat Scouser and Geoff and I disagree with them on this particular subject, theres no dismissing, they have all been polite and generally well nattured discussions we just have different opinions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, our most successful periods came when we when we were at our most boldest as a club not when we clung on to the past for the sake of holding on to the past.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I reckon most of us aul arses know it's always been about money. I've never disputed that. But the thing is, this new all out commercialism isn't us being bold. FSG haven't just invented some great new philosophy. Until Shankly formed the holy trinity, owners and share holders just binned the dough. Shankly forced them to sign the cheques. He resigned every other week. In the end the board had to meet his expectations. The thing is, FSG have lowered expectations even more than Hodgson. Well, maybe not down too relegation dog fights. But to them, a happy clappy, shiny LFC knocking around the 4th spot, and in the shop window, is job done.

I rate Rodgers above that, though. I don't go for all the new Shankly stuff, but he seems to have something about him and I hope all the players are ready to run through brick walls for him. Don't ever think I want LFC, or any of ours, to fail. I'm just giving an honest opinion on the club and football in general. It's not in some bold new phase. If anything, it's teetering on the edge of collapse. That'll get sneared at, but it's true. Footy can't be sustained in it's present form. Greed is coming to it's limits. I look forward to the game and the club after the wheels fall off the gravy train.

[Not A Scouser]

If the game all boils down to money and marketing it just won't be the beautiful game no longer in my eyes. The beauty lies in its unpredictably on pitch and off the pitch. As an avid Rangers fan, i like many am looking forward to a fresh start in the 3rd division. Fuck the money and all the moneymen who run the club before, we live on.

John Barnes, who knows a thing or too about Liverpool at its finest, said that there weren't really tactics at Liverpool (or anywhere else in England) until the 90's.  His explanation for why Liverpool were the best team was because they had better players.  How did Liverpool have better players?  They bought them.  How did they buy better players?  They spent more money than almost all the other teams.

[Not A Scouser]

The thing about the whole "trust FSG," or "don't trust FSG, they are only in it for the money", or "watch them carefully because we've burned before" is that whatever you choose it doesn't matter other than how you feel about it.  The fans have no real say in how the club is run and never have.  The only thing you can do to change how the club is run is convince as many thousands of fans it would take to change how much money the owners make.  This didn't even happen when the club was on the verge of administration.  It won't happen.The idea that the fans got Hicks and Gillette out is a myth.  It simply isn't true.  Hicks and Gillette are not the owners now because they took out a loan, backed by the club, and couldn't pay it.

So, what really matters is how you feel about the whole thing.  If the commercial and marketing part of modern football depresses you or pisses you off you can decide to pay attention to it and be depressed and/or pissed off, or you can simply watch the games and the only commercial/marketing thing you will see is a name on the shirt, the same as for the last thirty or so years.  This still means you can get pissed off about players, or transfers, or the manager, just like you used to.  The Kenny and Brendan thing is just like the players, you like some of them and not others, you are sad to see some go and others stay, but you support all of them.

If you don't care one way or another about marketing you can just be a Liverpool fan and be happy about it.

If you want Liverpool to be good you have to approve of the commercial or marketing side, but you don't have to pay attention to it.

If you are interested about how the club is run as well as supporting them you can discuss marketing and commercialism in modern football etc..

You can choose to pay attention to what you enjoy and avoid the things you dislike.  You can't change what you dislike into something you enjoy, you haven't the power, you never did.  What I recommend is paying attention to the things you enjoy about Liverpool FC and avoiding the things you don't.  Doing otherwise is like hating the credits at the end of films, watching the film and enjoying it, and then deliberately staying for the credits.

[KirkVanHouten]

John Barnes, who knows a thing or too about Liverpool at its finest, said that there weren't really tactics at Liverpool (or anywhere else in England) until the 90's.  His explanation for why Liverpool were the best team was because they had better players.  How did Liverpool have better players?  They bought them.  How did they buy better players?  They spent more money than almost all the other teams.

He never said there weren't any tactics, he spoke about there being no structure on the pitch in English football during that time. Something which IMO helped us and the way we played, the interchanging of positions and making yourself available for a pass, a more structured approach could have hindered our play. The difference in the modern game is that the manager tells the players what the tactical plan is and what they are supposed to do in detail. In my opinion, it's a big reason why Kenny didn't get good results with footballers like Downing and Carroll and why intelligent players like Agger, Maxi and Suarez excelled under him. It's very naive to suggest that Liverpool had no tactics in the 80's, when Rushie left Kenny completely reinvented the team.

[Fat Scouser]

I could wonder lonely as a cloud. Not taking the piss mate, you're right. The club will always be there. People will always love it. I'll always love it. It's been in me life a long time. It'll be there for our kids. As long as there's football, there'll be an LFC...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvPiv7F1lfE

And people will discuss it, the good, the bad and the ugly.

[Redrider]

Take note of some of the names in this thread who are 'giving Rodgers their support 100%'. Right now, before a ball is kicked, before we hit the post, before we haven't got what we deserved in a game, everybody is behind Rodgers. Watch them bay for his blood when results don't go our way, if we're sitting in 7th at Christmas and don't look like we're remotely close to a top 4 challenge.

Selling Andy Carroll before he has kicked a ball for Rodgers, is a very bold move that will rebound on Rodgers if we are indeed sitting at 7th at Christmas. The 'hounds will indeed be baying for blood'
There are also concerns with Rodgers about his over-relaince on signing only players withwhom he has had some previous experience: Signaurdson, Borini and now Allen. All of which suggests that he lacks some confidence in his ability to manage' new faces' or at least train them to fit his tactical plan.
I think that he might find that the level of expectation at Anfield is something well beyond his previous experiences. Whilst he did well at Swansea, he will need to raise his game well above that he delivered at Swansea to meet the expectations of Anfield

[west_london_red]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I reckon most of us aul arses know it's always been about money. I've never disputed that. But the thing is, this new all out commercialism isn't us being bold. FSG haven't just invented some great new philosophy. Until Shankly formed the holy trinity, owners and share holders just binned the dough. Shankly forced them to sign the cheques. He resigned every other week. In the end the board had to meet his expectations. The thing is, FSG have lowered expectations even more than Hodgson. Well, maybe not down too relegation dog fights. But to them, a happy clappy, shiny LFC knocking around the 4th spot, and in the shop window, is job done.

I rate Rodgers above that, though. I don't go for all the new Shankly stuff, but he seems to have something about him and I hope all the players are ready to run through brick walls for him. Don't ever think I want LFC, or any of ours, to fail. I'm just giving an honest opinion on the club and football in general. It's not in some bold new phase. If anything, it's teetering on the edge of collapse. That'll get sneared at, but it's true. Footy can't be sustained in it's present form. Greed is coming to it's limits. I look forward to the game and the club after the wheels fall off the gravy train.

First of all, the point you made earlier about Liverpool only coming about over an argument about selling beer at Everton games is very valid and one worth remembering, to a degree its always been about the money, its just stepped up a few notches over the last few years. People blame Sky, but its not just them, its players, agents, Roman Abramovich, Bosman, Jimmy Hill, its been going on for a lot longer then people realise.

Will it collapse? I hope so, I think we'll do relativly well out of a collapse but im not as sure as you that it will happen, and I think you undersestimate peoples greed, its not satisfied yet. Too many of the forces behind the game and its money (Sky, Sheikh Mansoor, Abramovich, UEFA, the 100,000,000,000,000 Manc fans) are not about to go anywhere anytime soon and are too powerful to allow what they have go down the pan. Just look at the latest Sky deal...

[Fat Scouser]

First of all, the point you made earlier about Liverpool only coming about over an argument about selling beer at Everton games is very valid and one worth remembering, to a degree its always been about the money, its just stepped up a few notches over the last few years. People blame Sky, but its not just them, its players, agents, Roman Abramovich, Bosman, Jimmy Hill, its been going on for a lot longer then people realise.

Will it collapse? I hope so, I think we'll do relativly well out of a collapse but im not as sure as you that it will happen, and I think you undersestimate peoples greed, its not satisfied yet. Too many of the forces behind the game and its money (Sky, Sheikh Mansoor, Abramovich, UEFA, the 100,000,000,000,000 Manc fans) are not about to go anywhere anytime soon and are too powerful to allow what they have go down the pan. Just look at the latest Sky deal...

I never said it will happen over night. And we could argue the semantics of it all night, but I'm not even splitting hairs. Far as I'm concerned, I'm just stating a few home truths. I don't like the state of the club or the game. I've felt like that before, but never to this degree. Mind you, your bird changing over night after fifty years together, is a bit of a knock. But I've said me peice, so I'll try and keep schtum and just see how it all turns out. If nothing else, it is a new start and I wish Brendan nothing but success.

[BUSHMILLS]

I keep reading that "people are saying Rodgers is the new Shanks", yet I can't find one single post where someone has said it.