Author Topic: Muslims and Jews Join Forces.... (Read 7762 times)

corkboy · « **on:** July 12, 2012, 02:12:17 PM »

....so they can continue to mutilate small boys for religious purposes.

Muslim and Jewish groups denounce German circumcision ruling

European Jewish and Muslim groups have joined forces to defend circumcision for young boys on religious grounds after a German regional court ruled it amounted to bodily harm.

A joint statement says the practice is fundamental to their faiths and calls for it to be awarded legal protection.

The ruling by the Cologne court - also criticised by the Israeli parliament - does not apply to the whole of Germany.

But Germany's Medical Association told doctors not to perform circumcisions.

Thousands of Muslim and Jewish boys are circumcised in Germany every year.

The unusual joint statement was signed by leaders of groups including the Rabbinical Centre of Europe, the European Jewish Parliament, the European Jewish Association, Germany's Turkish-Islamic Union for Religious Affairs and the Islamic Centre Brussels.

"We consider this to be an affront (to) our basic religious and human rights," it said.

"Circumcision is an ancient ritual that is fundamental to our individual faiths and we protest in the strongest possible terms against this court ruling.

"To that end we will vigorously defend our right to maintain our mutual tradition and call on the German parliament and all political parties to intervene in overruling this decision as a matter of urgency."

The leaders also met members of the European parliament and the Bundestag to express their anger and insist that the German parliament establish clear legal protections for the rite.

The BBC's Stephen Evans in Berlin says the German government is clearly uneasy about the ruling, particularly after accusations that it was inappropriate for the country of the Holocaust to outlaw a fundamental ritual of Judaism.

The ruling by the Cologne court followed a legal case involving a doctor who carried out a circumcision on a four year-old that led to medical complications.

The court said that a child's right to physical integrity trumped religious and parental rights.

The doctor involved in the case was acquitted and the ruling was not binding. However, critics fear it could set a precedent that could be followed by other German courts.

source

♠Dirty Harry♠ · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2012, 02:20:51 PM »

Strip it all back to the barest bones and you're left with: "I want to mutilate my child."

No doubt the "for Health Reasons" card will be played as well.

pantbash · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2012, 02:24:49 PM »

Quote from: ♠Dirty Harry♠ on July 12, 2012, 02:20:51 PM

Strip it all back to the barest bones

Not the best choice of phrasing for such a delicate matter.

I happen to agree with the German court ruling.
The kids can always get themselves chopped when they reach the age of medical consent in their particular country.

Hyypia headers · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2012, 02:29:44 PM »

Quote from: pantbash on July 12, 2012, 02:24:49 PM

I happen to agree with the German court ruling.
The kids can always get themselves chopped when they reach the age of medical consent in their particular country.

Spot on.

♠Dirty Harry♠ · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2012, 02:33:28 PM »

Quote from: pantbash on July 12, 2012, 02:24:49 PM

Not the best choice of phrasing for such a delicate matter.

Yeah, only catching that on now. Eek.

Finn Solomon · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:14:54 PM »

Always nice to see a bit of inter-faith cooperation. Wish them luck.

GBF · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:18:11 PM »

Quote from: Finn Solomon on July 12, 2012, 03:14:54 PM

Always nice to see a bit of inter-faith cooperation. Wish them luck.

may be because of a piece of skin around the dong, the middle east problems between arabs and israelis will be solved

Immoral King Brian Blessed · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:18:46 PM »

One step forward, remain backwards.

RedRabbit · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:20:05 PM »

Good.

The "accusations that it was inappropriate for the country of the Holocaust" is low blow and indicative of the stupid reasoning used by these people.

You do not, under any circumstances, get to cut pieces off your, or anybody elses, child because "you've always done it". Period.

gregor · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:27:09 PM »

Quote from: Finn Solomon on July 12, 2012, 03:14:54 PM

Always nice to see a bit of inter-faith cooperation. Wish them luck.

It's lovely isn't it? Two groups of people who don't always see eye to eye come together in the name of maiming small children. The world is a beautiful place.

Finn Solomon · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:28:26 PM »

Always find the overreactions hilarious. Didn't bother me in the slightest.

Immoral King Brian Blessed · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:32:03 PM »

Quote from: Finn Solomon on July 12, 2012, 03:28:26 PM

Always find the overreactions hilarious. Didn't bother me in the slightest.

How old were you?

Finn Solomon · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:32:53 PM »

Six or so. Nice hospital job, sting went away after a week, todger looks lovely today. Other than my addiction to serial killing, didn't affect me in the slightest.

Immoral King Brian Blessed · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:35:28 PM »

Quote from: Finn Solomon on July 12, 2012, 03:32:53 PM

Six or so. Nice hospital job, sting went away after a week, todger looks lovely today. Other than my addiction to serial killing, didn't affect me in the slightest.

Why not at birth? And you don't think it should have been left up to you to decide if it should be done? (obviously not, I'm assuming!)

pantbash · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2012, 03:54:46 PM »

Quote from: Finn Solomon on July 12, 2012, 03:32:53 PM

Six or so. Nice hospital job, sting went away after a week, todger looks lovely today. Other than my addiction to serial killing, didn't affect me in the slightest.

But surely you must miss the oustanding ability to make piss balloons.
A massive part of your childhood wrecked right there!

xavidub · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2012, 05:04:08 PM »

Nothing like ritualistic barbarity to bring religious folk together.

dave 5516 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2012, 05:12:20 PM »

Quote from: corkboy on July 12, 2012, 02:12:17 PM

....so they can continue to mutilate small boys for religious purposes.

Muslim and Jewish groups denounce German circumcision ruling

European Jewish and Muslim groups have joined forces to defend circumcision for young boys on religious grounds after a German regional court ruled it amounted to bodily harm.

A joint statement says the practice is fundamental to their faiths and calls for it to be awarded legal protection.

The ruling by the Cologne court - also criticised by the Israeli parliament - does not apply to the whole of Germany.

But Germany's Medical Association told doctors not to perform circumcisions.

Thousands of Muslim and Jewish boys are circumcised in Germany every year.

The unusual joint statement was signed by leaders of groups including the Rabbinical Centre of Europe, the European Jewish Parliament, the European Jewish Association, Germany's Turkish-Islamic Union for Religious Affairs and the Islamic Centre Brussels.

"We consider this to be an affront (to) our basic religious and human rights," it said.

"Circumcision is an ancient ritual that is fundamental to our individual faiths and we protest in the strongest possible terms against this court ruling.

"To that end we will vigorously defend our right to maintain our mutual tradition and call on the German parliament and all political parties to intervene in overruling this decision as a matter of urgency."

The leaders also met members of the European parliament and the Bundestag to express their anger and insist that the German parliament establish clear legal protections for the rite.

a fundamental ritual of Judaism.The BBC's Stephen Evans in Berlin says the German government is clearly uneasy about the ruling, particularly after accusations that it was inappropriate for the country of the Holocaust to outlaw

The ruling by the Cologne court followed a legal case involving a doctor who carried out a circumcision on a four year-old that led to medical complications.

The court said that a child's right to physical integrity trumped religious and parental rights.

The doctor involved in the case was acquitted and the ruling was not binding. However, critics fear it could set a precedent that could be followed by other German courts.

source

What's this about? An event that took place last century surely has no place in relation to a court ruling about the right's of children.

thekitkatshuffler · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2012, 05:18:20 PM »

Quote from: dave 5516 on July 12, 2012, 05:12:20 PM

What's this about? An event that took place last century surely has no place in relation to a court ruling about the right's of children.

I assume he's referring to it also being a German court ruling about the rights of Jews in general.

CarlitoB · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2012, 08:46:16 PM »

Does anyone here that has been circumcised actually have an issue with it? Not this specific story, the act itself?

I'm circumcised, many I know are circumcised, and I genuinely cannot recall anyone even remotely having a problem with it. I'm sure there are some that do, but I'm not religious and I'm cool that I was cut when I was a kid. In fact an uncut friend of mine had problems with his foreskin, was causing pain, can't remember exactly what it was about (something about it being too tight), that's the only time I've ever personally heard of anyone having a problem with their bellend.

corkboy · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2012, 09:31:47 PM »

I understand there are rarely any serious side effects but outside of parts of Africa, there are no advantages. Don't you find it a bit senseless? It's as if your parents decided to cut off your earlobes at birth, just for the hell of it.

By the way, I don't blame most parents, particularly in America, where I understand it was recommended almost universally. Still is, for all I know. Where I come from, you only got circumcised if there was something wrong with you.

FlashingBlade · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2012, 10:29:02 PM »

What was probably undertaken to avoid smelly knobs and infection in the heat of the middle east thousands of years ago , now forms a key-stone to two of the worlds major religions.

corkboy · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2012, 10:30:42 PM »

Quote from: FlashingBlade on July 12, 2012, 10:29:02 PM

What was probably undertaken to avoid smelly knobs and infection in the heat of the middle east thousands of years ago , now forms a key-stone to two of the worlds major religions.

Appropriate username is appropriate.

CarlitoB · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2012, 10:38:44 PM »

I'm going to ignore the "earlobes" remark, because you generally come across as a pretty intelligent bloke, and I'm sure you can see how silly that sounds.

I'm more interested in this:

Quote from: corkboy on July 12, 2012, 09:31:47 PM

By the way, I don't blame most parents, particularly in America, where I understand it was recommended almost universally.

This makes it pretty clear that your problem is not with circumcision, it's religion (possibly only certain religions).

Fine mate, have at it. I was going easy earlier when I said I was "not religious", I actually despise religion, though of course not those that believe. However if you want to have a go, don't disingenuously use other subjects to mask your disdain.

corkboy · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2012, 10:49:13 PM »

Quote from: CarlitoB on July 12, 2012, 10:38:44 PM

I'm going to ignore the "earlobes" remark, because you generally come across as a pretty intelligent bloke, and I'm sure you can see how silly that sounds.

No, you're going to have to back that up a little. You don't get to call remarks silly and move on. I don't see any appreciable difference. Both cosmetic surgery that generally doesn't cause any problems but done for no good reason.

Quote

This makes it pretty clear that your problem is not with circumcision, it's religion (possibly only certain religions).

I would be more sympathetic to people who show up to their doctors and get told this is the right thing for your baby, for medical reasons. Even if it subsequently turns out to be bad advice. Religion is an element of this discussion but it's not the top and tail of it.

RojoLeón · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2012, 10:53:12 PM »

Not to be facetious or or anything, but isn't a penis post circumcision empirically smaller than before? (Not much, but measurably so).

And there is no defined medical imperative for cutting 'all' little boys penises without their permission (None whatsoever).

Why don't you let the little boys of the world grow up to chose for themselves (if it is just a fashion thing rather than a medical one, let them chose, like piercings or tattoos once they are age of majority).

Isn't it just a little bit weird to want to cut off part of a boy-child's penis anyway? You wouldn't dream (in the west) of cutting off part of a girl-child's genitalia (because it is depraved and has no medical benefit, whatsoever). So why are male children exempt from your cultural biases - why does anyone want to mutilate their children, to be fair?

Le Jake · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2012, 11:09:22 PM »

Quote from: RojoLeón on July 12, 2012, 10:53:12 PM

Not to be facetious or or anything, but isn't a penis post circumcision empirically smaller than before? (Not much, but measurably so).

And there is no defined medical imperative for cutting 'all' little boys penises without their permission (None whatsoever).

I had mine done at Christmas (AT, not FOR!) this year and although I don't measure my knob, its better know, I'd recommend it to be honest.

RojoLeón · « **Reply #26 on:** July 12, 2012, 11:19:42 PM »

Quote from: Le Jake on July 12, 2012, 11:09:22 PM

I had mine done at Christmas (AT, not FOR!) this year and although I don't measure my knob, its better know, I'd recommend it to be honest.

Fair play to you. You have before and after experience, and as an adult, made an informed decision. I can respect that. If you think it is better, then great for you.

I'm not going to follow your recommendation, just like I wouldn't if you told me to get my knob pierced or a penile tattoo. But that is my informed choice as an adult.

Was yours cosmetic or medical reasons, btw? You had under local anesthetic, right?

Immoral King Brian Blessed · « **Reply #27 on:** July 12, 2012, 11:24:31 PM »

And how long did it hurt, to add to RojoLeón's questions.

Finn Solomon · « **Reply #28 on:** July 13, 2012, 12:00:34 AM »

Quote from: Immortal King Brian Bluessed on July 12, 2012, 03:35:28 PM

Why not at birth? And you don't think it should have been left up to you to decide if it should be done? (obviously not, I'm assuming!)

Babies are more delicate I assume. As for the other one, it was my decision in a way as I asked to wait a year. But not doing it wasn't something I considered. After it's a rite of passage and it's harmless.

RedRabbit · « **Reply #29 on:** July 13, 2012, 12:38:52 AM »

It's not exactly harmless Finn. Deaths and serious (if you like having a cock) complications occur.

Finn Solomon · « **Reply #30 on:** July 13, 2012, 12:42:14 AM »

It is if you're performing it in a hospital like I did. If the bill's to outlaw non-professionals from performing the operation then I don't have a problem with it. But to outlaw it completely I don't agree with.

Devon Red · « **Reply #31 on:** July 13, 2012, 11:01:08 AM »

Quote from: Finn Solomon on July 13, 2012, 12:42:14 AM

It is if you're performing it in a hospital like I did. If the bill's to outlaw non-professionals from performing the operation then I don't have a problem with it. But to outlaw it completely I don't agree with.

It's not being outlawed completely, the law is just being clarified to include consent. If I'm reading the ruling correctly then the court has said that circumcision without consent was already illegal under German law, it had just never been tested.

Consent can generally only be given by an informed adult, that is a pretty standard legal defintion.

jooneyisdagod · « **Reply #32 on:** July 13, 2012, 11:41:33 AM »

Quote from: Finn Solomon on July 12, 2012, 03:32:53 PM

Six or so. Nice hospital job, sting went away after a week, todger looks lovely today. Other than my addiction to serial killing, didn't affect me in the slightest.

My mate laughed about it as he narrated how it was done when he was 4 and there was nothing funny about lets just say coming from an outsider.

The Gulleysucker · « **Reply #33 on:** July 13, 2012, 11:51:41 AM »

Just thought I'd throw this into the cauldron....

Conclusions Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment. Thorough examination of these matters in areas where male circumcision is more common is warranted.

Source

corkboy · « **Reply #34 on:** July 13, 2012, 02:11:33 PM »

Quote from: The Gulleysucker on July 13, 2012, 11:51:41 AM

Just thought I'd throw this into the cauldron....

Conclusions Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment. Thorough examination of these matters in areas where male circumcision is more common is warranted.

Source

"women with circumcised spouses more often reported incomplete sexual needs fulfilment"

Send 'em over, boys, we'll look after them....

sms1986 · « **Reply #35 on:** July 13, 2012, 02:22:27 PM »

Religion shouldn't be forced on anyone who cannot understand religion, and this includes not mutilating the body of small babies who have no choice or say in the matter.

TipTopKop · « **Reply #36 on:** July 13, 2012, 03:23:05 PM »

"Chopee Choppee Your Pee Pee"... that was a cracking angle

Hyypia headers · « **Reply #37 on:** July 13, 2012, 03:35:14 PM »

Quote from: sms1986 on July 13, 2012, 02:22:27 PM

Religion shouldn't be forced on anyone who cannot understand religion.

Well that would save us alot of trouble.

UntouchableLuis · « **Reply #38 on:** July 13, 2012, 03:40:07 PM »

Quote from: sms1986 on July 13, 2012, 02:22:27 PM

Religion shouldn't be forced on anyone who cannot understand religion, and this includes not mutilating the body of small babies who have no choice or say in the matter.

Mutilating is a ridiculous word to use.

I'm jewish and it's just part of the ritual. Christians have rules and rituals, Jews have them, Muslims have them, when you get older you make your own choice about religion if you're lucky. I'm not religious in the slightest but circumcision is not even an issue - not that anyone will be able to remember but it's not painful as you're sedated and it's done with care and by a professional.

It's a great honour and ceremony in Jewish tradition and for some people to say it's not on is a bit ignorant IMO. It's like me saying aspects of Christianity aren't on without knowing the full details.

gregor · « **Reply #39 on:** July 13, 2012, 03:56:13 PM »

Quote from: UntouchableLuis on July 13, 2012, 03:40:07 PM

Mutilating is a ridiculous word to use.

I'm jewish and it's just part of the ritual. Christians have rules and rituals, Jews have them, Muslims have them, when you get older you make your own choice about religion if you're lucky. I'm not religious in the slightest but circumcision is not even an issue - not that anyone will be able to remember but it's not painful as you're sedated and it's done with care and by a professional.

It's a great honour and ceremony in Jewish tradition and for some people to say it's not on is a bit ignorant IMO. It's like me saying aspects of Christianity aren't on without knowing the full details.

What is there to understand or not understand? As far as I'm aware, circumcision in this case is cutting off a babies foreskin. If it's not that, I apologise for my misunderstanding. I don't think anyone should be allowed to do that - Jewish, Muslim, Christian or otherwise unless there is a specific medical reason for doing so.