Topic: Lucas Leiva - Up and Running

[Outer Mongolian Red]

So I'm reading through the Joe Cole thread and I find this gem from Sangria:

So I click on the thread Sangria linked too - It's incredible reading. . I just browsed a few pages before and after the page it opens on.  It's unbelievable that less than two years ago posters spouted such utter shite.  Seriously, worth a read and then jump into the Henderson thread - the similarities are truly uncanny, not in the players, just in the short-termist idiotic posts to be found.

Shame users can change their usernames as plenty of people are shamed on that Lucas thread, and probably the many others around from that period.  How things change in less than 2 years eh?!

My favourite comment on that thread by far was "Thank fuck Cole is back.He has been sorely missed." This after Cole had played one league game,which he spent watching Arsenal players pass the ball around him,which got him so wound he got sent off for a reckless tackle.Amazing.

[Number 7]

An absolute beast in the game last night. Was pressing and closing down really hard. Is going to be sublime this season.

[rushie9]

for minor matches i think he still ok, supposed he just out fr injury ... dont rush him back yet, lucas already got well ahead by the schedule ..

[seal75]

An absolute beast in the game last night. Was pressing and closing down really hard. Is going to be sublime this season.

Sublime? You mean his usual self!

[Wee Red Steve]

Hes looking like hes gonna pick up just were he left off, being a boss!!!

I still hang my head in shame at being one the wankers who berrated him when he was trying to settle in and learn his trade, if i could kick myself in the balls i would but am more than happy for Lucas to prove me and all the other dis-believers wrong every week, go on Lucas lad!

[KirkVanHouten]

So I'm reading through the Joe Cole thread and I find this gem from Sangria:

So I click on the thread Sangria linked too - It's incredible reading. . I just browsed a few pages before and after the page it opens on.  It's unbelievable that less than two years ago posters spouted such utter shite.  Seriously, worth a read and then jump into the Henderson thread - the similarities are truly uncanny, not in the players, just in the short-termist idiotic posts to be found.

Shame users can change their usernames as plenty of people are shamed on that Lucas thread, and probably the many others around from that period.  How things change in less than 2 years eh?!

That is an excellent advertisement for writing players off too quickly, fucking incredible.

[seal75]

Hes looking like hes gonna pick up just were he left off, being a boss!!!

I still hang my head in shame at being one the wankers who berrated him when he was trying to settle in and learn his trade, if i could kick myself in the balls i would but am more than happy for Lucas to prove me and all the other dis-believers wrong every week, go on Lucas lad!

Don't be too harsh on yourself son. Admitting your error is never an easy task.

[Phil M]

The thing is with Henderson, like Carroll, his transfer fee acts like a noose around his neck as once you pay a high fee for a young player, greatness is expected almost immediately and there is no time allowed for bedding in or poor performances. Plus when the team is struggling as a whole as we did last season, the new players, upon whom most expectations are put are always going to bear the brunt of the criticism. I hope Henderson can mature in the same way Lucas did and grow into his role, but whether he's given the same amount of time and opportunity remains to be seen.

[stoa]

The thing is with Henderson, like Carroll, his transfer fee acts like a noose around his neck as once you pay a high fee for a young player, greatness is expected almost immediately and there is no time allowed for bedding in or poor performances. Plus when the team is struggling as a whole as we did last season, the new players, upon whom most expectations are put are always going to bear the brunt of the criticism. I hope Henderson can mature in the same way Lucas did and grow into his role, but whether he's given the same amount of time and opportunity remains to be seen.

In my view, one huge difference is that there was no need to use Henderson as often as we did (and out of position) last season. I'm not saying he's a wank player (as I think he has shown glimpses of what he's capable of). I'm saying is that we used him all the time despite having better alternatives in his position (something we didn't have for Lucas) and as a result not only did the criticism go over the top, but he himself suffered from it by losing his confidence. He's 22 years old and it wouldn't have done him any harm if we had used Maxi or Kuyt more often in his place.

As far as Lucas is concerned, I think a comeback like that was always on the cards. His game is mostly about what's in his head and therefore won't suffer that much from being out injured. Not saying he doesn't need to be in tip-top physical condition, just that he can make up for a lack of fitness, by basically thinking quicker than others. Just like Sami Hyppiä was still able to produce performances like the one in the 4-1-win against Man United when he was about a million years old...

[dotheoffski]

So people think henderson is going to turn into a Lucas?

Lucas came when he was 20, henderson 21.
Lucas came all the way from Brazil only speaking Portugese, henderson is English and used to the culture.
Lucas had no premiership experience, Henderson had 2 years premiership experience.
Lucas was not substituted time and again for dreadful performances.

Where are the similarities? Similar ages?

Lucas is an exceptional player now but needed time due to the reasons above.  Lets stop making excuses for henderson, he showed absolutely nothing last year that he could own a spot in a top 10 side let alone a top 4 side.  I still have no idea why we brought him (unless he was to play right midfield which he did play alot at Sunderland) and he is going to have to improve alot for BR to start picking him.

[Phil M]

So people think henderson is going to turn into a Lucas?

Who are you referring to when you say 'people'? Actually no one has said that at all that I'm aware of.

As for the rest of your post......

[LondonRedMan]

Good game last night. Controlled and reassured.

[Buck Pete]

Sat in the ground last night on a warm summers night watching Steve Gerrard play without a care in the world about what was going on behind him was a joy to behold.

I know it was only little old Gomel and there will be many more stiffer tests to come, but the Brazilian lad was majestic last night and I watched the game with a big smile on my face as I knew he was back. On my way up to the ground I saw a multitude of brand new replica shirts with different players names emblazoned across the back.  But what jumped out for me was not ones bearing the names of Suarez and Gerrard but the plethora of shirts I saw bearing one name.

That name was 'LUCAS'

Welcome back.

[me76]

Sat in the ground last night on a warm summers night watching Steve Gerrard play without a care in the world about what was going on behind him was a joy to behold.

I know it was only little old Gomel and there will be many more stiffer tests to come, but the Brazilian lad was majestic last night and I watched the game with a big smile on my face as I knew he was back. On my way up to the ground I saw a multitude of brand new replica shirts with different players names emblazoned across the back.  But what jumped out for me was not ones bearing the names of Suarez and Gerrard but the plethora of shirts I saw bearing one name.

That name was 'LUCAS'

Welcome back.

Great post mate, stirring stuff.  He sure enables our others to shine.

[Zlenpasha]

But what jumped out for me was not ones bearing the names of Suarez and Gerrard but the plethora of shirts I saw bearing one name.
That name was 'LUCAS'

Welcome back indeed.

[bigbear]

Great to see him back. Obviously still a long way to go to get back to his best but it was wonderful to see him back again, winning tackles and being so composed in possession.

Utterly key player for us. If he stays fit we can hit the top 4. If he doesn't we won't - it's that simple.

[Incognito]

It's also interesting to see who did write Lucas off? Some of the usual usual short-signted ignorant jerks as to be expected (Fordy et al who are now writing the same things about Henderson), but others on there surprised me a bit if I'm honest.

Perhaps one should just let things lie and give many of those who criticized him bit of leeway, but thing is that by looking back on post-history of a user one does have a tool to judge posters true attributes and whether one should give any real notice of said posters opinion on here.  Not saying that one opinion should mark him yet you can de facto notice a train of thought and opinion concerning other matters that will raise eyebrows.  As said, there are the usual suspects, yet there are some that one was quite surprised to see slating the player in question.

I seem to remember writing something concerning post history and how one could "clear the weed" so to speak, set aside those that look like total muppets and give heed to those who have good and well grounded opinions.  Yet under such scrutiny I wouldn't pass too well and have been guilty of deleting a huge amount of posts...not to hide wrong/misguided opinions or backtracking mind you, different reasons all together (little proof though...guess you gotta take my word for it  ).

On Lucas, I've held him in high regards just about from the start of his career at Liverpool but as with most players peoples opinion vary and I have had misgivings of other players that some have rated highly but in the end succumbed to same.  But I'd have no problem of admitting to those misgivings even if it looked like backtracking.

It is wonderful to see him back on the field and looking quite good or even better than expected considering his long absence.

[dotheoffski]

Who are you referring to when you say 'people'? Actually no one has said that at all that I'm aware of.

As for the rest of your post......

Plenty of people on the forum have used Lucas as an example of why Henderson should be given time and patience.

I disagree because as I posted their background and premiership experience was totally different.

You very maturely put your point across of why you disagree, fair enough, everyone has their opinion.

[mart356]

Hopefully the signing of Allen will mean Lucas isnt played too much and given plenty of rest. Still a way to go before he returns to his old self.

[Phil M]

Plenty of people on the forum have used Lucas as an example of why Henderson should be given time and patience.

Not that I can see.

What most level headed posters are suggesting is that hopefully Henderson, who like Lucas was the subject of some negativity from the fans in his first couple of seasons, can also flourish in time and mature into the player many of us feel he has the potential to. Simple as that, it's pointless making direct comparisons or trying to differentiate between them due to their backgrounds etc. You're missing the point.

[stoa]

Plenty of people on the forum have used Lucas as an example of why Henderson should be given time and patience.

I disagree because as I posted their background and premiership experience was totally different.

You very maturely put your point across of why you disagree, fair enough, everyone has their opinion.

Even though Lucas and Henderson have different backgrounds, the point still stands in my view. I'm not saying Henderson had a great season (mainly due to him being over-used, as I've already pointed out) or that everything will be like it was with Lucas. I just think that Henderson has shown enough last season (mostly some great passes and some very good assists for goals) that makes me believe there is a quality player in him. If he continues to develop, works hard and gets more consistant at least we'll have a very good squad-player. If things are going well, we'll get a great player for our starting-eleven.

And I think that is why people compare Lucas and Henderson. When Lucas' critics were saying he's only passing sideways or does nothing of note, the people who "defended" him said that they saw a lot of positives. I think the same is true for Henderson. A lot of the criticism comes from us having a bad season and him being played/started in too many games. And that's kind of overshadowing all the good things he's shown...

[Juan Loco]

Looked alright, but he'll face a real battle to keep his place from Jay Spearing.

[Incognito]

Looked alright, but he'll face a real battle to keep his place from Jay Spearing.

fish...bait....must resist...

[The Jackal]

Looked alright, but he'll face a real battle to keep his place from Jay Spearing.

David? Is that you, David? 

[scatman]

David? Is that you, David? 

Lucas missed the final six months of last season after undergoing surgery on the anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee in November.

Ironically, in the period he was sidelined the 25-year-old's reputation was only enhanced as the team stuttered without him. A downward spiral of league results in the latter stages of the campaign saw the Reds finish eighth and ultimately cost manager Kenny Dalglish his job.

The absence of Lucas, who had been Liverpool's best player of the preceding 18 months, was highlighted as a significant factor as new central midfield signings Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson failed to deliver while Jay Spearing proved a less-than-adequate replacement.

And it brought the defensive midfielder, who was much maligned in his first couple of years at Anfield, a new legion of fans who came to realise his worth to the team.

"The position I play in, people don't see a lot because they normally watch who scores goals or who beats players," he said.

"The players who do the dirty work, as it is called in England, you don't see as much.

"I think as soon as I got the injury people started to realise the job I was doing for the team and if you watch the big teams who fight for titles they always have these kind of players.

"It has been a very good two years for me with eight months on the sidelines but I'll be back again and be at the same level of performance.

"At the moment I only think about being 100 per cent recovered."

The appreciation now felt for Lucas is a remarkable turnaround from the early days of his Liverpool career when he was the subject of fans' criticism who felt he was well short of the standard required.

Then manager Rafael Benitez, who signed him from Gremio for £5million in July 2007, continued to consistently pick the midfielder and left himself open to ridicule over his seemingly blind faith in the player.

Lucas undoubtedly benefited from the experience he was given by Benitez but admitted he had to change himself in order to be able to successfully adapt to the demands of the English game.

"I have it clear in my mind that my first two seasons here it was not a question of quality or desire, it was a question of me not being ready," added the Brazilian, who played his first competitive match for more than eight months in Liverpool's Europa League qualifier away to FC Gomel.

"I needed to change a few things to be successful in the Premier League and I changed that.

"I used to be play maybe a bit further forward but now I play as a defensive midfielder and I have no problem with that.

"It was a position I found more comfortable and I tried to adapt in terms of strength.

"As soon as I started to improve my strength I started to improve what I was capable of doing.

"With game time you get experience and confidence and the things just start to change naturally."

Lucas will be an integral part of new manager Brendan Rodgers' game-plan as he seeks to introduce the passing style which became a trademark of his Swansea side last season.

[rob1408]

Looked alright, but he'll face a real battle to keep his place from Jay Spearing.

Couldn't believe he said that last night.  I know he's a bit of a joke, but that really does take some beating.

[Incognito]

Couldn't believe he said that last night.  I know he's a bit of a joke, but that really does take some beating.

Last night there where few instances that one really wanted to mute Pleat physically in the commentators box.  Uncanny how one man can be so simple minded.  Read a few gems from him here, comedy gold :

http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/69481-david-pleat-quotes.html

[pistolpete]

My mate works at IMG and once saw David Pleat sat at a TV in a room practising his commentary hours before a CL fixture.

[scatman]

poor old guy is senile now, lay off him! sometimes he does offer good insight.

[Ultimate Bromance]

Last night there where few instances that one really wanted to mute Pleat physically in the commentators box.  Uncanny how one man can be so simple minded.  Read a few gems from him here, comedy gold :

http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/69481-david-pleat-quotes.html

Was chuckling all the way through that, but this one had me nearly bursting into tears

Clive Tyldesley: "This wont be United's biggest win in Europe. They actually won a game 10-1"
Pleat: "I remember that as a young man, against Anderlecht, wasn't it?"
Tyldesley: "It was in 1903, David"

[liverbnz]

Was it even Pleat that said it? I'm fairly sure it was the other guy and Pleat sorta half tried to argue the point by saying Lucas was badly missed last season.

[scatman]

Was chuckling all the way through that, but this one had me nearly bursting into tears

Clive Tyldesley: "This wont be United's biggest win in Europe. They actually won a game 10-1"
Pleat: "I remember that as a young man, against Anderlecht, wasn't it?"
Tyldesley: "It was in 1903, David"

that was my favourite too

[Il Capitano]

Was chuckling all the way through that, but this one had me nearly bursting into tears

Clive Tyldesley: "This wont be United's biggest win in Europe. They actually won a game 10-1"
Pleat: "I remember that as a young man, against Anderlecht, wasn't it?"
Tyldesley: "It was in 1903, David"

[The Jackal]

Was it even Pleat that said it? I'm fairly sure it was the other guy and Pleat sorta half tried to argue the point by saying Lucas was badly missed last season.

I'm pretty sure it was Pleat..

[lamonti]

Really like David Pleat, bumbling around with names is actually not the biggest crime of a commentator when you consider that he is usually actually, talking about and analysing the game that's going on in front of him, usually without letting any bias obscure his view too much. Especially when you compare him with some of the nasty, snide chancers barely stringing clichés together of belittling everything they see on the pitch because they're only capable of spotting mistakes rather than appreciating decent football. Craig Burley and his ilk.

Now, for Lucas... even he says in his interviews he was truly inconsistent in his first seasons here - too weak and trying to learn a new league and a new position. The fact that he was Golden Ball winner in Brazilian league though should've been a tip at least that he would come good in such a fashion.

Brazilians are fucking mad about football and I would say far more technical and nerdy about it than many in the British media give them credit for, where the cliché of fucking beach/samba "all they can do is attack", naive-at-the-back prevails, despite the fact their national team only occasionally embraces that style (and even then it's usually built on solidity).

Add to that Lucas' level of professionalism, his dedication to training (mentioned by each of his managers at Liverpool, even Sir Hodgealot), dedication to his rehabilitation, dedication to improve in comparison with some players (Brazilian or otherwise) who might have tendency to be put off by things going against them... and you have wonderful player. I think, I hope that under Rodgers, he will have a role that best suits the kind of player he has become at the anchor of midfield.

I also hope to fuck we bring in someone, even someone relatively cheap to offer back up to him. If Romeu is unwanted by Chelsea, someone like him, because the season after a cruciate injury will be tough.

Great game last night. Could see him relishing being back in action, bashing people in tackles and doing all the simple things well, winning the ball back high up and moving it along quickly. Much as I like Jay's enthusiam, he's now a huge drop in quality.

[Phil M]

Really like David Pleat, bumbling around with names is actually not the biggest crime of a commentator when you consider that he is usually actually, talking about and analysing the game that's going on in front of him, usually without letting any bias obscure his view too much. Especially when you compare him with some of the nasty, snide chancers barely stringing clichés together of belittling everything they see on the pitch because they're only capable of spotting mistakes rather than appreciating decent football. Craig Burley and his ilk.

Absolutely and you can always sense his passion for the game in his voice, he is positive and enthusiastic which comes across a lot better than some droll sarcastic smug twat like Lawrenson trying to get his little one liners in.

[dotheoffski]

Not that I can see.

What most level headed posters are suggesting is that hopefully Henderson, who like Lucas was the subject of some negativity from the fans in his first couple of seasons, can also flourish in time and mature into the player many of us feel he has the potential to. Simple as that, it's pointless making direct comparisons or trying to differentiate between them due to their backgrounds etc. You're missing the point.

I concede thats well put.  Lets hope you are right.

[Severely]

Looks like it won't be long before he's back to his old self. Have to give full credit to the medical team as well, it's looking like they've done a real top notch job getting him back.

[Matt8Pie]

Absolutely and you can always sense his passion for the game in his voice, he is positive and enthusiastic which comes across a lot better than some droll sarcastic smug twat like Lawrenson trying to get his little one liners in.

Yep, spot on. Pleat is alright really, a bit of an idiot, but a bit like Ray Wilkins in that you could really tell the passion they had, albeit a little biased from Wilkins. I don't mind Gary Neville so much either, I prefer his punditry, but his commentary is good as he knows what he's talking about..except when he jizzes himself.

Looks like it won't be long before he's back to his old self. Have to give full credit to the medical team as well, it's looking like they've done a real top notch job getting him back.

I know what you're saying but I think he'll still need a couple more months of patience from everyone. There were a couple of times the other day and last week I saw where he didn't go in so hard and was reluctant to put himself on the line like he used to before the injury. It's natural obviously but the last thing he needs is people to expect it too soon based on a game against quite weak opposition. The real test comes in the coming weeks against sterner teams and probably some shithouses that will target him.

[abs-ibs]

That pleat thing is comedy gold.

'Its a real cat and carrot situation.' Fantastic ROFLMAO

and

'He had to cut back onto his left foot, because he literally hasn't got a right foot.' Literally David? LITERALLY?

That was the funniest thing I've read in ages thankyou very very much.