Topic: Lucas Leiva - Up and Running

[Red Crown]

If we signed Mascherano and Alonso tomorrow, Lucas would be struggling to get into the team in my opinion.

He really wouldn't; have you seen our midfield recently?

[The 5th Benitle]

I don't know, mate. It's all a matter of opinion of course, but I still think he has to improve more before he's considered above those two.

Why are you not reading the words 'all round player' before you comment?

[The 5th Benitle]

Defensively superior than Xabi?

Fucking hell. One of the silliest questions I've ever seen. And I mean ever, not just on this forum, not just to do with LFC, not just to do with sport.

This deification of Alonso since he left (or rather asked to leave) our club has become fucking sickening.

[The 5th Benitle]

Ah so because you've said it, means it's fact?

No, because what he's said is exactly right. Argue with it, go on.

[andspecks]

Why are you not reading the words 'all round player' before you comment?

I was. And I don't think it's right. I don't think he's a better all round player, if that's allowed.

[The 5th Benitle]

I was. And I don't think it's right. I don't think he's a better all round player, if that's allowed.

Of course it's allowed, but it makes me back away from you and look around nervously if I'm honest.

OK put it this way...blend Masch and Xabi together. A new player is created who has the best of each player. He's better than Lucas. Another new player is created with what's left, i.e. their worst points. That player is infinitely worse than Lucas.

[andspecks]

Of course it's allowed, but it makes me back away from you and look around nervously if I'm honest.

OK put it this way...blend Masch and Xabi together. A new player is created who has the best of each player. He's better than Lucas. Another new player is created with what's left, i.e. their worst points. That player is infinitely worse than Lucas.

I've never said he's a poor player or anything, mate. I think he's fantastic when he's on form and extremely important to our team. I've got his bloody Brazil kit if you don't think I appreciate him enough. I've just said I don't think he's better than Xabi Alonso, who helped Spain to yet another European Championship and Real Madrdi to a La Liga title with his abilities or Javier Mascherano, who has been called by Pep Guardiola as their best signing in recent times. Hardly Earth shattering.

[The 5th Benitle]

I've never said he's a poor player or anything, mate. I think he's fantastic when he's on form and extremely important to our team. I've got his bloody Brazil kit if you don't think I appreciate him enough. I've just said I don't think he's better than Xabi Alonso, who helped Spain to yet another European Championship and Real Madrdi to a La Liga title with his abilities or Javier Mascherano, who has been called by Pep Guardiola as their best signing in recent times. Hardly Earth shattering.

You've missed the point entirely I'm afraid. The answer is in the words ' all round'. I can't explain any more clearly, perhaps others can.

[Matt8Pie]

Ahhh, the classic RAWK x is better than y arguments.

You can partner Lucas with Alonso and Mascherano wouldn't be missed, you could partner Lucas with Mascherano and Alonso won't be missed or you can partner Alonso with Mascherano and Lucas won't be missed. Quite simple, really.

[andspecks]

You've missed the point entirely I'm afraid. The answer is in the words ' all round'. I can't explain any more clearly, perhaps others can.

I get that. You don't need to keep acting like you're so above me, mate.  I don't think he's a better all round player. I've already stated that. How am I missing the point when I've already addressed that? Alonso and Mascherano have shown their abilities for a lot longer than Lucas. If Lucas continues to improve, which I'm sure he will then I'll agree that he's better, but I just don't think after two great seasons that's a true statement yet.

[Matt8Pie]

Three great seasons, but hey who's counting?

[LFC_4_life]

I've never said he's a poor player or anything, mate. I think he's fantastic when he's on form and extremely important to our team. I've got his bloody Brazil kit if you don't think I appreciate him enough. I've just said I don't think he's better than Xabi Alonso, who helped Spain to yet another European Championship and Real Madrdi to a La Liga title with his abilities or Javier Mascherano, who has been called by Pep Guardiola as their best signing in recent times. Hardly Earth shattering.

When Pep Guardiola called Mascherano his best signing, he wasn't talking about Mascherano the midfielder. Mascherano had to change posistions to even get a game at Barca because he is very average on the ball.

Mascherano is is a 10 off the ball and a 4 on the ball. Alonso is a 5 off the ball and a 10 on the ball. Lucas is a 7.5 in both areas.

The thing is, through tactics and setting up your midfield to be balanced, you can get the best of both world. Thats why Masch and Alonso were great in midfield together. You essentially had a 10 out of 10 player off the ball and a 10 out of 10 player on the ball in the middle of the field.

Put Alonso alongside Spearing and he probably doesn't look anywhere near as good because Spearing can't carry the the defensive side of the game anywhere near as good as Masch and niether can Alonso.

Lucas however, would be able to work alongside Spearing  as he has proven he can do, because he more well rounded. it all depends on how you set your team up and Lucas gives a manager more options than either Masch of Alonso do in midfield.

[andspecks]

Three great seasons, but hey who's counting?

Alright, act as if I'm trying to slag him off. Three great seasons.

[koolkamal]

I'd have Lucas over Alonso or Mascherano. Hell I'd rather have two Lucas than Alonso and Mascherano.

[LFC_4_life]

Ahhh, the classic RAWK x is better than y arguments.

You can partner Lucas with Alonso and Mascherano wouldn't be missed, you could partner Lucas with Mascherano and Alonso won't be missed or you can partner Alonso with Mascherano and Lucas won't be missed. Quite simple, really.

You can partner Alonso with Spearing and it would be a disaster. You can partner Mascherano with Spearing and it would be a disaster. You could partner Lucas with Spearing and it would work.

But Alonso and Mascherano together would be a better partnership than Lucas alongside either.

It's all about balance. Lucas is more well rounded than both Masch and Alonso and gives the manager more options.

[Matt8Pie]

Alright, act as if I'm trying to slag him off. Three great seasons.

You're getting paranoid, little one.

[Stevie93]

Mascherano is is a 10 off the ball and a 4 on the ball. Alonso is a 5 off the ball and a 10 on the ball. Lucas is a 7.5 in both areas.

Does that make Javi Martinez a 9 both on and off the ball?

[andspecks]

You're getting paranoid, little one.

Hah, I'm out.

[Rohit]

Does that make Javi Martinez a 9 both on and off the ball?

Nope but it does make Busquets

[Coolie High]

Alonso is a better player than Lucas, hes nearly just as good defensively and he is also far better on the ball. That doesn't mean Lucas isn't a world class player though, just that Alonso is probably top 5 central midfielders in the world.

[Mr Dilkington]

Alonso is a better player than Lucas, hes nearly just as good defensively and he is also far better on the ball. That doesn't mean Lucas isn't a world class player though, just that Alonso is probably top 5 central midfielders in the world.

Yeah, sums it up well.

Alonso is criminally underrated off the ball.

[Rohit]

Yeah, sums it up well.

Alonso is criminally underrated off the ball.

Madrids best player off the ball, seeing as Khedira isn't a defensive midfielder not matter how many people want to think he is.

[DanA]

Alonso is a better player than Lucas, hes nearly just as good defensively and he is also far better on the ball. That doesn't mean Lucas isn't a world class player though, just that Alonso is probably top 5 central midfielders in the world.

I'd have Alonso as better overall but defensively I think Lucas is much stronger.  5/10 defensively is a disservice to Alonso but he doesn't do nearly the amount of defensive work Lucas does, few if any in the world can match what Lucas did the last 12 months he played.

I'd say defensively Lucas is a 9/10 (Alonso 8/10), he won't create nearly as much play as Alonso  but defensively is a beast. I don't think a player in the world would statistically match up favourably against Lucas (defensively). 

[sideshowme]

This deification of Alonso since he left (or rather asked to leave) our club has become fucking sickening.

i'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks this.

[Danny_]

I'd have Lucas over Alonso or Mascherano. Hell I'd rather have two Lucas than Alonso and Mascherano.

  Wow is all I can say - just wow!  This is a problem for us - we get deluded about how good the players we currently have are and way over-hype them.  Obviously, Alonso was way more valuable than him, Mascherano is debatable but I still think we are over-hyping Lucas by comparing him.  He's a good player in a position that we are really weak in so his qualities stand out.  That's it.  He's not a superstar.  Real Madrid are not coming knocking for a reason.  He's a good player - why can't we just leave it at that.  I hope he fully recovers from his injury but nobody knows whether he will be as good as before.  That's reality - not the fantasy world that some of you appear to live in.

[Kovai Red]

IMO, Lucas can also play along those two. Lucas can play further up the pitch. He can run with the ball. Alonso can use his long passes and Lucas can run with the ball. One thing is sure, if that does happen, i.e:
------Masch-------
Lucas------Alonso
we wont concede much.

[abs-ibs]

I don't know why people are comparing Alonso n Masch  to Lucas, they are all v different players. The only similarity between them is that they were all at the club at the same time and are central mids.

Alonso was a pass master visionary. Masch was a defensive destroyer. Lucas is a tactical master at reading the game, intercepting and marking too.

All have different qualities.

But we couldn't have used Lucas and Masch for a long period together in cm. Lucas and Alonso would've worked as did Masch and Alonso but as Lucas and Masch didn't have that vision that Alonso had, and our attack was blunted. That is why Rafa suffered in his last season with us, as his midfielder who could and did bridge the gap between defence and attack i.e Alonso, left.

Hence the mistrust SG showed in that season (and seasons post-Alonso), by coming back for the ball too much and leaving Torres isolated.

Lucas is well becoming a huge player. He is after SG our best midfielder, but he excells in areas that Gerrard has got a few weaknesses, tackling, intercepting and disciplinary positioning. Lucas is better than Barry, De Jong, Song, Tiote, Mikel all of whom are defensive mids in our league. To say that he isn't the best def mid in the league would be a huge disservice as he clearly is. A few years ago Yahya Toure would've been better but his role has become more box to box so I discounted him.

Although Lucas wouldn't get in Real Madrid's side it is because he isn't a 'big name' not because of his ability or lack thereof. If Busquets wasnt at Barca, Lucas would be a better fit for them than Masch as he gets play going better and has a wider passing range, and of course better technique.

Lucas is a brilliant player hence his inclusion in a v good brazil team. Can't wait to see him back in action!!!!!!!!

[stevedo]

I look forward to checking this thread on how Lucas is progressing towards full fitness, without having to see the names Mascherano or Alonso mentioned. Give it a break.

[Vidocq]

mascherano could win the ball but never had the same influence when on the ball....still doesnt.
alonso couldnt win the ball like lucas but was slightly better with the ball.

as a rounded footballer lucas is better than both

[fosspowered]

If we signed Mascherano and Alonso tomorrow, Lucas would be struggling to get into the team in my opinion.

Mascherano would play as a CB and Alonso would partner Lucas. Utterly pointless discussion though. "If we signed Messi, Higuain and Ronaldo tomorrow, Suarez would struggle to get into the team"

[spider-neil]

I wouldn't swap Lucas for Mash but I would absolutely swap Lucas for Alonso.

[Pistolero]

Utterly pointless discussion

[Vidocq]

I wouldn't swap Lucas for Mash but I would absolutely swap Lucas for Alonso.

i would any day... Masch-Alonso partnership was one of the best ever in premier league, if not the best

[scatman]

still an interesting read though, its nicer these days that people are even comparing him to those 2 great midfielders we had. Before, it was just how he couldnt do what they could.

[Sangria]

Lesson for Lucas fans. Never compare with Alonso and Mascherano because there is no point of comparison as they play in different leagues, and some people will always blame Lucas that we're no longer playing in the CL. Just satisfy yourselves with the preponderance of evidence showing Lucas to be the best DM in the English league, although some will deny even that.

[-Daws-]

Should be on our bench or at a Championship club, right?

I think the best arguement is the most balanced one. Lucas has some of Mascheranos qualities as a ball winner. He is mobile, tenacious, and has an excellent tackling technique (possibly better than Masch in the standing tackle, not as good on the ground). He also has some of Alonso's abilties too. He is probably on a par with his short passing, his vision isn't quite as good, but he is just as comfortable on the ball and reads the game equally as well. Alonso is a better long passer though, without question.

I look at it like this. You get the best out of Alonso with a Mascherano beside him. You get the best out of Mascherano with an Alonso beside him. Thier strengths make up for eachothers weaknesses. You only need one Lucas, because he can do a bit of everything pretty well, and that's why I'd take him over either of them, and he's roughly 3 years younger.

[Vidocq]

Your opinion is invalid your to immature, still PM people your mummy jokes

stop acting like an idiot...you can quote me only related to what i said in my previous post, if you dont agree with what i said, you should expain why...if you dont know why, then dont quote me at all

[Believe]

I wouldn't swap Lucas for anyone.

A true hero in the sea of money grabbing, fame hungry naff celebrity wannabe c*nts that most footballers are. Underrated by so many but probably the best in the world at what he does. First name on the team sheet and will probably be Rafa's greatest legacy alongside No. 5 (and Sterling/Shelvey).

Would die for the shirt and doesn't care about the weather, UK taxation or the shameful treatment dished out by so many 'supporters'.

[The Jackal]

so Lucas is in the squad flying to Belarus for the Gomel match. really hope we aren't rushing him back too soon..

[The 5th Benitle]

I get that. You don't need to keep acting like you're so above me, mate.  I don't think he's a better all round player. I've already stated that. How am I missing the point when I've already addressed that? Alonso and Mascherano have shown their abilities for a lot longer than Lucas. If Lucas continues to improve, which I'm sure he will then I'll agree that he's better, but I just don't think after two great seasons that's a true statement yet.

I don't think I'm 'above you' but you're still missing the point. You seem to think 'better all round player' = 'better player'. It doesn't, necessarily.