Author Topic: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late  (Read 4276 times)

Offline hesbighesred

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England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« on: June 29, 2012, 04:41:51 PM »
It’s finally happened. English football finally seems to have grasped the value of technique in possession of the football. Hodgson’s said it, The tabloids said it, even educated Guardianistas are saying it: Let’s do it. Let’s pass the ball. It’s a valuable insight, and one that could make a huge difference to the way very young English players are coached. Smaller pitches. One and two touch play. Value the ball. We’re waking up to a magnificent piece of criticism based on Peter Kay’s wonderful ‘Ave it!’ advert that simultaneously served as the definitive statement of English football’s value system. The criticism was this:
Quote
I don’t get it. He’s a footballer. Why doesn’t he love the ball?
Jamie Carragher wrote a phenomenal and absolutely accurate piece in the Telegraph about this, a stinging condemnation of English coaching and English footballing attitudes, as well as Hodgson himself. The irony here is that Carragher was hugely welcoming of Hodgson, was rumoured to be a big factor in Benitez’ removal, and is himself the ultimate ‘Ave It!’ footballer, yet as a student of the game his views echo almost exactly Benitez own brilliant article on the subject of English coaching.

However, as welcoming as this awakening is, it sadly still misses the point. The value of possession is not a new lesson. It’s the lesson that the rest of the footballing world learned, digested, implemented and has now moved on from and revolutionised over the last 30 years. It’s a movement that Benitez was a pioneer of with his work at Valencia and Liverpool, and it’s his overall philosophy that has gained such momentum this generation. You see, what the rest of the world has realised, just as we’re learning to value the ball, is that it’s what happens off the ball that now separates the best from the rest.

Already comfortable on the ball, the high-end coaching in the top footballing nations is now focussing on an old revolution that modern fitness training has only now allowed to become ubiquitous, that of pressing. Pressing has become systematic, team-based and highly organised. The revolutionary impact of Arrigo Sacchi’s Milan system, a phenomenal style of play that ultimately destroyed his players physically, has been modified so that the best pressing teams now do it in waves. High intensity and high lines, but for shorter bursts, followed by retreat if the ball is not won back quickly and decisively. This maximises the number of dangerous attacking situations – teams are at their most vulnerable just after a turn-over in possession. In turn this has led to possession becoming a way of regaining energy. Teams run off the ball and rest on it – defending has become the new way of attacking, and attacking the new way of defending. It’s transforming the way the world plays football and I find it incredible to watch, not least seeing the interesting ways different nations are interpreting it, and the new (and indeed old) weapons teams are finding to combat these new approaches.

Take a look at Greece, for example. Lacking the players to compete with this new paradigm, they have found real success by going forward to the past. A return to that most maligned of footballing systems – the Catenaccio of Inter in the 60’s. Unable to get or keep the ball, the Greeks have looked to play almost without the ball at all. This has even succeeded at the very highest levels – Mourinho’s Inter in particular perfected this art of playing without the football, saving their concentration for maintaining team shape and denying space, while saving their energy for set-pieces and devastating bursts when rare counter-attacking opportunities present themselves.

Meanwhile England are realising that players who can pass and receive the ball are fundamental to any success, but are also utterly ignoring the developments following on from that simple truth. Now that the better countries have quality players, they are all focussed on  pressing, and how to make it work with the players at their disposal. In the meantime, England are focussing only on what happens when a team actually has the ball, and do not seem to realise that in order to have the ball, you have to have some idea of how to actually get the ball. Stopping our habitual surrendering of possession is only half the problem – that is not the only reason why Hodgson’s England registered such pathetic possession statistics.



Hodgson’s England have no plan to regain the ball. Hodgson himself does not even understand that pressing is a system, let alone how to implement that system with the players at his disposal. He thinks of pressing as no more than closing-down the nearest man, within a system of pure retreat, which is in turn no more than a product of players working hard. Even worse, Hodgson does not even understand how reliant his team’s possession is on having a genuine target man – implementing his own ‘Ave It’ brand of defending and then attempting to build from the hold-up play and knock downs of, err, Danny Welbeck, leaving Carroll on the bench – much as he tried to employ Fernando Torres at Liverpool. Yet this is the man to whom we have entrusted the first core of young English players I can remember who actually understand the fundamentals of possession and who, under someone like Benitez, could be moulded into a genuine force off the ball as well as on it.

Instead, while the rest of the world is finessing it’s pressing we, depressingly, have a coach who doesn’t understand his single tactical approach of almost 40 years use explaining that ‘we must do better’ at keeping the ball – as if it were the players fault that long clearances to a front line containing no players with genuine heading or holding-up ability will struggle to get or maintain possession. Meanwhile English football in general is, I think, going to start going in the direction of Arsenal. We will, eventually, get a better coaching and start implementing those kinds of attitudes on the ball, but as with the coverage of Arsenal and Wenger we will claim this is as a kind of English version of Barcelona’s ideas while ignoring the fact that Guardiola’s revolution had nothing to do with what his players do with the ball. The two approaches could scarcely be more different – Wenger, as a coach, is even more clueless off the ball than Hodgson is, and his teams do not really press at all, let alone systematically.

All this means that we are shaping up to produce a generation who can actually finally play possession football, only to find every other nation is either able to aggressively press and take that possession from us as easily as candy from a baby, or meet underdogs like Greece who will frustrate us with organisation and denial of space, with our own team relying on opposition mistakes to regain possession, lacking as we do not only a plan to get the ball, but even the knowledge that getting the ball back actually requires a plan.

The irony is that England has, as already mentioned, an unemployed and phenomenal manager who pioneered the current footballing revolution in the goateed form of Rafael Benitez, who would doubtless be hugely interested in an England project of genuine scope and ambition. This man has the vision and knowledge to implement the kind of structures and the kind of coaching that make Spain, Brazil and Germany the phenomenal teams they are.



If you want to weep at the sickening anti-intellectualism and backward thinking of our country on the whole and how this is destroying our national game – a game in which we must never forget that, in terms of number of children taking up the sport, we are blessed with potential natural resources that only Brazil and Argentina could really rival in terms of raw numbers – look no further than media attitudes towards that manager. While the media laud the virtues of the 4-2-3-1, they still mock the man they vilified for playing that ‘negative’ formation in England. While they gasp at Spain’s aggressive pressing, they still don’t understand that Benitez Liverpool were playing that way off the ball before Spain had even won a major tournament. While they wonder at the fitness and flexibility of nations and teams employing ruthless rotation systems, they still denigrate ‘Fat Spanish Waiter’ for his implementation of that system. He, or someone like him, with this new generation, could build something England haven’t had since 1966 – a team at the very cutting edge of modern tactics.

Instead, he will not even be mentioned in the clamour for a new approach that will follow our almost inevitable dismal failure in Brazil (on the large assumption that we even qualify). If there is hope for England I would look to Brendan Rodgers, a man who, unlike Liverpool’s two previous managers, is steeped in the modern approach, and might just have the tactical insight and understanding to rebuild based on the strong foundations and promising academy Benitez left there, and may then be in a position to transfer that vision to the national team.

Relevant Links:
Carragher article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9354727/Euro-2012-if-England-think-radically-and-act-now-we-can-do-a-Germany-says-Jamie-Carragher.html
Benitez article: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/rafael-benitez-england-have-the-talent--but-not-the-philosophy-7881158.html
HBHR article on Sacchi influencing Rafa's Liverpool: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=231088.0

This article was written for http://straightoffthebeach.wordpress.com/ but because it deals with Liverpool, especially Rafa though it mentions all 4 of our last managers, and with the well worn subject on here of how crappy English coaching is I thought I'd submit it first to you, the good people of RAWK. I also haven't written anywhere near as much as I should have for this site as a scribe so it's a tiny attempt to rectify that, I owe RAWK a lot and it's always a pleasure sharing stuff on this site. Hope you enjoyed the article and thanks for reading.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 05:59:30 PM by hesbighesred »
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Offline Samee

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 05:16:33 PM »
This was all said after the World Cup too. Hoddle, Waddle, Green all going berserk at England's total ineptitude at keeping the ball and how the game needs reform from the grassroots level. I remember loving it, reading all the articles coming out, getting psyched that change might actually finally be happening. Then what happens? Same old shit. Then to compound the misery of mediocrity, they go and appoint Hodgson.

The FA are a joke.
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Offline A Day 2 Remember

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 05:17:52 PM »
Hes big Hes Red.
Can you provide more insight into the systematic approach to pressing. I'm very interested to learn more on the subject.
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Offline AndyInVA

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 05:20:52 PM »
i never get this generation comment

we last won anything in 1966 - 44 years ago

which to my reckoning is two generations

The FA is pretty slow to evolve

Offline Pheeny

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 05:24:11 PM »
we last won anything in 1966 - 44 years ago
and not even looked like winning anything,for a nation like England with probably the best competitive football in the World that is terrible.
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Offline HighSix

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 05:24:58 PM »
Good read &really did not see the Rafa twist coming!

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 05:36:09 PM »
Hes big Hes Red.
Can you provide more insight into the systematic approach to pressing. I'm very interested to learn more on the subject.
Read the link provided for the Sacchi article, goes into aspects of that in a lot more detail.
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Offline A Day 2 Remember

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 05:38:16 PM »
Read the link provided for the Sacchi article, goes into aspects of that in a lot more detail.

Cheers
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 05:43:35 PM »
i never get this generation comment

we last won anything in 1966 - 44 years ago

which to my reckoning is two generations

The FA is pretty slow to evolve
Which one do you mean? I think by the generation thing I'm more referring to the revolution from possession football to pressing football. The basic approach to possession play hasn't changed all that much in the last 20-30 years, where the approach to what you do off it has changed drastically, and that approach is becoming more and more integrated into the game to the extent that, like with Spain, you're starting to see it have a knock-on effect in how teams see possession.

In terms of just England then yes, you're right, it's been two generations since we've had a real, proper footballing national team. The irony there is, of course, that Ramsey is lauded now for being everything great about English football when in fact he was successful precisely because he despised the FA and utterly fucked off the received wisdom around him of what a football team should be. In lauding him the way we do, especially with that horrible tinge of sentimental nostalgia, we actually ignore every single one of the lessons his great win should have taught us.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 05:44:02 PM »
P.S - thanks for the nice feedback everyone. Appreciated as always! :)
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 05:54:55 PM »
Excellent read mate, thanks.

Sure you meant to put Hodgson instead of Wenger below though.

The two approaches could scarcely be more different – Wenger, as a coach, is even more clueless off the ball than Wenger is, and his teams do not really press at all, let alone systematically.
"My coach told me to warm up just before the break. He told me I was going to take care of Kaka. I didn't think it was possible to turn things around but in the dressing room at halftime Rafa Benitez was calm - "We are Liverpool FC, we have so many fans, we are not going to be slaughtered. If we can score a goal quickly we push on from there.""

Offline Samee

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 05:57:50 PM »
Nice read HBHR.

Sure you meant to put Hodgson instead of Wenger below though.


Yeah, was just about to point that out.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 05:58:31 PM »
Excellent read mate, thanks.

Sure you meant to put Hodgson instead of Wenger below though.
Ahh, yeah, the second Wenger should be Hodgson, good spot and thanks for that!
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 06:03:14 PM »
Just realised you meant the title! It's referring to the fact that what we now seem to be grasping is what Europe grasped a generation ago, hence even if we implement the changes that seem to be gathering momentum now we'll still be a generation behind where the cutting edge of football is actually at.
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 06:04:22 PM »
i never get this generation comment

we last won anything in 1966 - 44 years ago

which to my reckoning is two generations

The FA is pretty slow to evolve

It's not the Fa though. it's the youth coaches and the parents who participate as volunteers and who are at the games supporting. Firstly yes games have got to go to smaller set ups. 3v3 4v4 at a very young age and increase touches on the ball. Also low numbers helps understanding the game easier. This must be done by the Fa at grass roots level, but anyone considering the role of coaching kids has got to understand how children play.


Exiled in yorkshire started a thread because he is getting onto youth coaching and is starting his badges and wants pointers. Kudos. But here is a couple of things in the post I noticed.

I have started looking after my sons team (u7 next season.........pre-season friendly on sunday.)

how do you lot get the little buggers to stop bunching up?

A reply from JayH93 ( replies to the bunching up question with "stop the game if they are bunching up, take as long as you need to explain the importance of space. If it is drilled into them long enough then you will see improvements over time."


My issue with the U7 preseason friendly wording  is that it is all so adult oriented. Pre season friendly, meaning as soon as the season starts its all about results.It's not friendly any more, right. It all very serious business, that is this game played by 6 year olds. These are kids who want to play and have fun with a ball. b

Now if there are 6 7 or 17 kids on the pitch it really doesen't matter about bunching up and the reason is this. There will always be bunching up because there is ONLY ONE TOY. The ball.

And everyone wants to play with it. And the kids perception of when they will get it is so far from your adult perception that you can tell them til they are blue in the face and they if they like to play will go after the ball.

So how to stop bunching up play small sided games with many goals. Create success. I will go into the Coaching circle to provide more info for exiled  but this is intrinsically what is wrong with the way youth soccer is seen. A mini version of the Adult professional game. That it is not.

The reply to bunching up by Jay and I'm not picking on him. But this is from someone who is offering advice to a new youth coach  that is entering grass youth football with a complete LACK OF COACHING KNOWLEDGE. 

Jay says to stop and take as long as you need to explain the importance of space.....Blah blah blah blah blah. That is all that a kid hears. Get in and get out when making a coaching point. Less than 30 sec. if you can  less is more.


If the knowledge is drilled into them you will see improvements over time.[/color] From Jay again.[/color]
Sure you might even have a winning team at U7 but a team who hardly knows why they are doing what they are doing. Because it has been drilled into them by rote, not by their understanding, not by their own cognitive process. And I can guarantee this it will not be fun for a kid to go to practice and it will not be fun for a coach to go either.

Let them figure it out by creating opportunities for them to revisit their thinking and find a  new solution. But no a youth coach is being offered advice to stop the kids from playing and listen to a lecture on what they are doing wrong.

The child is 6 or seven.
Give them a ball each if possible. Get them having fun so they want to come back. Make every game a pre season friendly where they are told to never give the opposition the ball. And if they want to pass instead of dribble ask them why? If they can offer a reason great. If not tell em to keep the ball, protect it love it. And go and beat the player in front of him and try make him look silly so he ends up on his bum. This will have a child giggling and laughing and trying to.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall. It's like trying to get Hodgson to see that their old philosophy DOES NOT WORK ANYMORE.
The whole approach to Youth coaching in this sport has got to be dragged up from this "ave it" mentality.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 06:12:33 PM by Redallover11 »

Offline Sangria

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 06:09:17 PM »
i never get this generation comment

we last won anything in 1966 - 44 years ago

which to my reckoning is two generations

The FA is pretty slow to evolve

In football terms a generation is around 10 years. A player breaks into top level professional football in his early 20s, has a decent career that may result in international recognition, but by his 30s he won't have much left. England's so called golden generation had around 10 years of competitiveness, after which they were pretty much finished.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 06:47:21 PM »
Brilliant post. The idea that Education can be fun and is valuable in and and of itself Vs Education as means to achieve 'success' sums up many of the problems right there, and that goes for the country in general, not just football.
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Offline Prof

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 11:03:15 PM »
Essential reading for anyone interested in the future of the England National Team.

Thanks for sharing this with us.
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 11:24:48 PM »

That's a belting rant.  Well said.

I love the observation about children bunching because there's only one toy.  I hadn't heard it said like that before.
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 12:13:43 AM »
It's a great article, but we've known this for 20 years.

Exactly the same was said after Euro 92 in Sweden, it was dire, awful, dreadful....

The exact same things were said and NOTHING happened.

Now, 20 years on, we've tried Hoddle, venables both of whom cared about controlling the ball, we've tried foreign coaches and suddenly, somewhere, someone's decided that shit house Charles Hughes tactics are the order of the day and Roy's brought in.

This isn't Roy's fault, it's the FAs, utterly lacking in leadership and planning for the future, they are to blame, they have always been to blame.
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Offline Il Capitano

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2012, 12:47:43 AM »
It seems to me that the outpouring of support for improving young players' technique is very much to do with the trendiness of the idea of possession football, and has very little real analysis behind it. Watch any match with English commentators or pundits, and they are still talking solely about physicality, winning the second ball, no-nonsense defending, man marking, and extolling the virtues of playing with two strikers. Often they'll even start mentioning the idea of developing technical skills in youngsters in the very next breath. There doesn't seem to be the connection being made there.. there's the idea of being able to fuse together the 'best' national characteristics like 'bravery' (read: players running out of position) and continental 'technique', as though the two concepts are at all compatible.
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2012, 12:54:20 AM »
I look forward to the day that England are able to produce players of better technical ability and keep the ball against quality opposition. Here is a great interview with Barca’s Xavi who bemoans the fact that good technical players aren't produced because of coaches' obsessions with winning at a young age.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1355726/Xavi-interview-Paul-Scholes-best-midfielder-20-years.html

That being said, even though I'm all for a more 'technical' approach from England, it should be noted that Inter Milan won the Champions League in 2010 with an average possession of less than 40% throughout the tournament. I do believe that it's possible for a team to be triumphant without the ball, even if it's not as easy on the eye.

I agree with the crux of the OP, however I dare say that the references to Benitez are misplaced. You have portrayed him as some sort of paragon of the beautiful game when in reality I think he’s a fundamentally cautious coach. Moreover I find it difficult to accept that he’s supposedly the perfect man to produce this pressing game for England when his Liverpool teams would often sit back against lesser teams like Fulham at Anfield. In the second half of 08/09 we did see Rafa encourage an expansive, attacking system that was a joy to watch. We pressed, moved the ball quickly and played attacking football at a quick tempo; particularly at Anfield where we hammered Real Madrid, Villa and put four past Arsenal etc. However this was the only time I can recall us playing regularly expansive and attacking football. We had a lot of success under Rafa but we certainly didn’t achieve that success by playing the beautiful game.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 01:08:16 AM by Paragon »

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2012, 01:04:34 AM »
I look forward to the day that England are able to produce players of better technical ability and keep the ball against quality opposition. Here is a great interview with Barca’s Xavi who bemoans the fact that good technical players aren't produced because of coaches' obsessions with winning at a young age.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1355726/Xavi-interview-Paul-Scholes-best-midfielder-20-years.html

I agree with the crux of the OP, however I dare say that the references to Benitez are misplaced. You have portrayed him as some sort of paragon of the beautiful game when in reality I think he’s a fundamentally cautious coach. Moreover I find it difficult to accept that he’s supposedly the perfect man to produce this pressing game for England when his Liverpool teams would often sit back against lesser teams like Fulham at Anfield. In the second half of 08/09 we did see Rafa encourage an expansive, attacking system that was a joy to watch. We pressed, moved the ball quickly and played attacking football at a quick tempo; particularly at Anfield where we hammered Real Madrid, Villa and put four past Arsenal etc. However this was the only time I can recall us playing regularly expansive and attacking football. We had a lot of success under Rafa but we certainly didn’t achieve that success by playing the beautiful game.

Who said anything about 'the beautiful game'? I fear you've missed the point.
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Offline Paragon

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2012, 01:10:22 AM »
Who said anything about 'the beautiful game'? I fear you've missed the point.

Forgive me, I was speaking in generalities. Possession football with an emphasis on attack (attack being the best form of defence as stated in the op) is generally more easy on the eye, hence my generalisation 'the beautiful game'.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 01:15:50 AM by Paragon »

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 02:34:18 AM »
We had a lot of success under Rafa but we certainly didn’t achieve that success by playing the beautiful game.

Oi! That man you are attacking is made of straw!
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2012, 02:46:47 AM »
The fundamental problem with English football, is that the administrators are corrupt and inept: They have established a nepotistic old boys club and are firmly entrenched. They will pay lip service to whatever is getting the tabloid knickers in a twist (racism, modern coaching methods, etc..) but they will basically do the thing that protects their self interest.

And this is where any attempt to modernize will fail: Every time. They don't want innovative and ambitious thinkers uprooting trees and ruffling feathers - because sooner or later, they are going to demand that the administrators themselves are upgraded and modernized. And that just won't do. 

Their lips are locked tight around the money teat - they will say one thing but always do the other. And that is to keep themselves on the train. And quite frankly, it bothers me not a jot, except for one thing. Our players invariably get fucked over: Maybe is a bit of confirmation bias there, but i wish our club had told Gerrard to wind his fucking neck in (and Redknapp and that little tart, Owen) whenever thy wanted to go tear muscles and ligaments, playing for a shower that sing 'I'd rather be a paki than a scouse', and other such witty, warm and inclusive chants.

So as much as I will never tire of seeing them fail, every single time, it pisses me off that our english players don't get the full benefit of playing for a national team that looks out for them and teaches them new things.
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2012, 10:54:25 AM »
The fundamental problem with English football, is that the administrators are corrupt and inept: They have established a nepotistic old boys club and are firmly entrenched. They will pay lip service to whatever is getting the tabloid knickers in a twist (racism, modern coaching methods, etc..) but they will basically do the thing that protects their self interest.

Spot on, there.
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2012, 11:30:38 AM »
Is there really any hope that England will develop a possession based game when we've just given Hodgson a long term contract and a remit to "coach the coaches"?
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Offline Paragon

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2012, 12:50:31 PM »
Oi! That man you are attacking is made of straw!

I absolutely haven't attacked anyone.

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2012, 01:16:22 PM »
`
Nice post, interesting points - though I must disagree on the Rafa bit.

Firstly, fifth is right - you have kind of missed the point in that Rafa is one of the pioneers of the kind of tactics that are dominating modern football. That isn't a matter for debate, it's a simple fact - he's almost as influential in terms of current tactics as the likes of Sacchi and Michels were earier. It's not about 'the beautiful game' - I've never really given a shit about that, it's about producing technically and tactically capable footballers, and then putting them in a system that wins games. Rafa has proven himself, over a long time, one of the very best there is at both of those aspects - the coaching structures, then later the more rigorous tactical instruction and then the final stage of first team football.

Secondly, I think you're simply wrong about us sitting back against teams like Fulham. I've no illusions - Rafa's absolutely a pragmatist and we knew how to defend in numbers, how to 'park the bus'. But I will happily bet you £50 right now that you can't back your claim up. Go and watch any of our games against Rafa against Fulham at Anfield and you won't find us sitting back. You won't find more than 10-15 games in Rafa's entire tenure where we sat back against Anfield. We never sat back against the likes of Inter, Barca or Man Utd (other than his first season or two, perhaps), so why would we suddenly do it when a Fulham who would be happy with a point come to Anfield?

I'd take that challenge further and urge you to go and dig out any number of our drawn games against lesser sides. If you say that we lacked a cutting edge, imagination or that we perhaps didn't attack enough or incisively enough then I think that's fair -but sitting back? Again, I doubt you'll find many, if any of those games where we actually sat back. Too patient, maybe. Sitting back? No. We played in our own half at Anfield a hell of a lot more under both Hodgson and Kenny then we ever did under Rafa - it's a big misconception about his football.

I'm labouring this point a bit now but look at Spain - part of how they defend is in patient attacking, that's something we did a lot too. It got seen as negative football - and there's a bit of justifcation for that, but it was rarely about sitting back, it really wasn't. We pressed harder, higher and for longer than any other team in the premiership. You can see this with Reina - one of the big reasons his form's dipped is because he hasn't been a sweeper-keeper for two seasons now, he's played a much more traditional role pretty much confined to his area and mainly on his line. He doesn't race out to intercept the ball like he used to so brilliantly, and that's because we've pressed much less and played a deeper defensive line.
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2012, 01:25:54 PM »
"My coach told me to warm up just before the break. He told me I was going to take care of Kaka. I didn't think it was possible to turn things around but in the dressing room at halftime Rafa Benitez was calm - "We are Liverpool FC, we have so many fans, we are not going to be slaughtered. If we can score a goal quickly we push on from there.""

Online lankyguy007

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2012, 02:42:26 PM »
If we're to take the Sacchi and Benitez examples, it's important you look at the way the precise way they pressed. As HBHR pointed out in the OP, Sacchi's Milan didn't tend to drop with their pressing, they didn't retreat for too long at a time, operating a high line and aggressive, compact pressing, especially in the middle third of the pitch. Because of the old offside rule, it meant when they were pushed back they could get out just as quickly under certain triggers, one of them being a backwards pass from the opposition where they would then press the player the pass went back to and the whole team would move out quickly, making it extremely difficult for the opposition to keep up pressure for long lengths of time

Benitez's way was obviously more pragmatic than that but one thing both did with their pressing systems was to prioritise organisation of the whole team. People talk about the pressing of Sacchi's Milan high up but one thing that's important to recognise is that they generally pressed from a set point. They didn't mark up high from opposition goal kicks, partly due to the back pass rule but also because it is easier to create space behind if you allow the centre backs to push out on the ball, and also allows you to press more compact as a team. That's harder to do if you press right up in the opposition's penalty area. I can illustrate this if people want.
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2012, 02:59:46 PM »
Great read HBHR.
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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2012, 04:19:05 PM »
There are two major issues regarding the game here - the national team and youth development. I don't believe they have to be directly related to eachother as you can grind out wins in tournament without being the best team or having a good youth structure- as Paragon  mentioned Inter's possession rates in 2010 and I would argue Greece in 2004 (did it really change the level of game there? I don't know enough about it to be honest). However it is clear that better youths and better coaching lead to better players making the grade which will increase the probabilites of england doing much better in tournaments.

I agree with Rafa's article where he mentioned that england did have players good enough to do well in the tournament and better management/tactics might have got us further. it is also important to remember England were not beaten in normal time during the tournament. Nobody was happy though as were completely outclassed as class of football is something completely different.

RedallOver11 writes a brilliant post about coaching youngsters, and there are somethings that can only be taught to kids at a young age and this is where coaches are so important. The 3v3 and 4v4 games he describes will teach kids the understanding of passing, moving and possession whilst giving them lots of touches on the ball.

Technically I do personally believe that youth football is much better and we have made large improvements from my personal experience. I'm 30 now, did play junior/youth football and remember training drills being as simple as dribbling around cones, passing drills before the full on 11 a side match (or more often than not 13 a side). Coaching of the games has been better in the last decade and am sure you will see that with players coming trough in the following years. I remember playing against a team of under 14s in 2006 and the kids were of higher technical standard with passing, movement, pace and had been taught little professional tricks like when to nudge and push opposing players.

Where we lack though is in the tactical side of football - the decision making. By the time you start playing competitive football games (where it is all about the win, less time on the ball etc) I really feel it's too late to teach this into young players. they have to learn and understand this in the 3v3 games RedallOver 11 describes at a junior level. To succeed in possession based football you really need to have 2 or more passing options when you receive the ball and players need to recognise in-game when to engineer the situation into a 3v3 (i.e. the games within games that barca and spain play). Sometimes a player will be closed down fast or pressed where his passing options are limited, in this scenario he needs to have the ability to dribble and get past players like RedallOver11 described in his post (i.e. like pirlo and iniesta do a lot, they just wriggle the challenges to get into a position where they can make the pass). How many england players can you name who are capable of doing this? even at liverpool, I don't think we have enough players this smart to play this sort of game just yet.

I do think football in this country will get better though, but it will be bottom up rather than top down (not as if the FA could do anything if they tried). There are a lot more footballing coaches in this country now and even the footballing layman understands tiki-taka, lines of play etc. I'm sure kids growing up now will want to be like pirlo, iniesta, xavi or even xabi much like in the mid 90s how lots of players wanted to be the 'player in the hole'. Maybe another reason why we never produce any Regista type players is due to the formations most coaches play in english football (nor did we ever really play with sweepers in english footballing culture). Formations will come and go out of fashion but we until we start producing 'footballers' who understand the game, with both feet, when and where to run, where and when to hold positions etc, we will be stuck at this level.

Offline Phil M

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2012, 04:41:23 PM »
Good read mate, well articluated.

I find it quite funny how while we do seem to have the english media seeing the light in regards to the english footballing philosophy and approach to the game, I've seen and heard of articles / reports of journos slagging off the Spanish game for being boring!

It's more than a bit hypocritical. They understand (or at least seem to) that for England to succeed at this level they need to be able to keep the ball and stop the opposition from dominating the game and the amount of chances they create as a result yet the best team in the world for the past 5 years or so (who I think personally will win tomorrow night) and who have set the example in regards to controlling a game with passing
are now being labelled boring and dull. Just goes to show the mentality of some supposedly educated commentators.
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2012, 06:27:03 PM »
Secondly, I think you're simply wrong about us sitting back against teams like Fulham. 

His record at home was phenomenal - particularly in the context of Evans, Houllier, Hodgson and Dalglish. We lost only 9 games in six years at anfield in the league. Those teams were beat us were Manu, Chelsea, Villa (and someone else (can't think). First season, 3 lost, second 1, third 1, fourth 1, fifth, 0 and last, 3. (And let's be fair, the last season was poor, losing to the likes of Villa.)

Anfield was a fortress - we won shitloads of games there also, but drew many - how does that compare to getting beat, at home, by Watford, Blackpool, Wigan, etc..

That game cited (Vs Fulham), was one where Keane misfired and Torres was out-muscled by Pantsil. I think we had an off day but still had a dozen chances and 65%+ possession. (Is it one of the games that Lucas was booed coming on as a sub for Alonso?)

Beating Rafa about his home record is one of the great myths surrounding his reign - his record was a quality player or two from being best in the league, and considering that the teams with better home records than us, were Mureen's mega bucks chelsea and Fergusons mega bucks manu. It is pittyful that people deride him for something he was actulally, pound for pound, the best at during his tenure here.

I absolutely haven't attacked anyone.

HBHR mentions and discusses rafa. You take a counterpoint against rafa and use the 'beautiful game' as the focus as to why he is wrong. Except he didn't one mention the beautiful game. You are attacking his argument based on a point he didn't make - hence a strawman argument.
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Offline Paragon

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2012, 06:29:14 PM »
HBHR mentions and discusses rafa. You take a counterpoint against rafa and use the 'beautiful game' as the focus as to why he is wrong. Except he didn't one mention the beautiful game. You are attacking his argument based on a point he didn't make - hence a strawman argument.

'Attack' is very much the wrong word, 'disagree' would have been far more appropriate, but anyway...

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2012, 10:53:41 PM »
Good read HBHR will look at the other articles later,

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #38 on: July 1, 2012, 11:47:09 AM »
England always seem to learn the lesson when it's too late. This so called golden generation had a disappointing World Cup after failing to qualify for the previous Euro's. At some point in the last 4 years probably after the WC they needed to overhaul the squad and bring the youngsters in with a view to being competitive in the next World Cup probably taking a step backwards in Euro 2012 to taking 2 forward in Brazil. Now Roy Hodgson who will stick with his tried & tested methods of the last 37 years, during which England have won Fuck all and stick with the players that got England to Euro 2012 to preserve his own position. Avoiding stick from the press and senior players for 2 years with a similar or worse outcome to this Summer.

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Re: England’s Inquest is a Generation Too Late
« Reply #39 on: July 1, 2012, 12:06:22 PM »
There is a fundamental flaw in 'English ' football...it has never appreaciated or valued 'Intelligence' in footballers , infact it has actively derided it, investing in values of 'workmanship' 'bravery' 'loyality' etc...infact all those 'values' applied to pacify the workingclasses ,from which the games heartland is.... as such as international football develops at a pace on a technical/tactical and thoughtfull approach for the teams and the indivuals....England is left wanting...oh sure its bought the manuals...but like a bloke faced with putting Ikea furniture together with a hammer... he says ah! fuck it!..foreign rubbish , should have bought English, lets go to the pub!

This approach means that as ex footballers move into coaching/management they  reinforce this approach to football.......and the proof in all this?...the success of English club football set against the failure of the English international team....but surely this is a contradiction....not so....the fact is English club football has been reliant on 'foreign' players and managers to apply their 'intelligence' for decades...it used to be Scots/Irish/Welsh up the 90's and then replaced by French/Spanish/Portuguse etc.... look at the succesfull managers/best players in the league over the past fifty years...that fact that the majority are 'foreign' is surely the biggest indicator to this?

The stout yoeman approach will always be at the heart of English football and as such it will never become a cultured approach... if my assement is correct then the response to failure for decades to come will be ..ah! fuck this! foreign rubbish anyway English is best and lets go to the pub!
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