Topic: "Spain are boring"

[tubby]

No so much boring as annoying.  The way that nearly every time Portugal were trying to break and a Spaniard went down to try and stop the game was really irritating.  For all their pretty passing, they're as cynical and snidey as they come.  Crowding the ref and trying to get players booked... Xavi is a master at that one.

[Coolie High]

Just throwing it out there, but what if you do that slightly higher up the pitch, but in possession of the ball?

Is the thing that makes Spain entertaining/positive the fact that they have possession? Because they rarely throw people ahead of the play with it. The only two players on the Spanish team who regularly move away from the ball seem to be the fullbacks. The rest of them move around the pitch making angles, but the few threatening runs off the ball have come mainly from Fabregas. If there's a lack of threat and intent isn't that just the same as parking the bus, but doing it in possession?

Bingo.

[Mr Happy Squid]

No so much boring as annoying.  The way that nearly every time Portugal were trying to break and a Spaniard went down to try and stop the game was really irritating.  For all their pretty passing, they're as cynical and snidey as they come.  Crowding the ref and trying to get players booked... Xavi is a master at that one.

Isn't that what every team does these days?

Didn't 'Ol Ronaldo do it after being muscled off he ball by Ramos as Spain were about to attack?

One of my biggest gripes with the modern game, teams kicking the ball out for injuries.

[Hank Scorpio]

I think they're boring as fuck and I can't stand some of the moral superiority that has surrounded how they play the game.

They are amazing though, and if I had an emotional investment in that team, their style of football wouldn't bother me in the slightest, because they always win. I don't though, so I'm allowed to find it boring as fuck, because I think it is.

I don't see what England, Liverpool or Barcelona has to do with it to be honest. It's just Spain and Spain alone, and I find them boring and negative in possession. They're the most cautious team I can ever remember watching, but they're also the most successful.

It's all subjective at the end of the day, and you are entitled to your opinion.

But you are juan big loser.

[Nicky English]

To me, what's more annoying isn't their falling over, it's the cynical fouling to stop opponents from breaking away.

They take turns, too, so to not get sent off.

And yes, they are terribly boring.

[Samee]

Just throwing it out there, but what if you do that slightly higher up the pitch, but in possession of the ball?

Is the thing that makes Spain entertaining/positive the fact that they have possession? Because they rarely throw people ahead of the play with it. The only two players on the Spanish team who regularly move away from the ball seem to be the fullbacks. The rest of them move around the pitch making angles, but the few threatening runs off the ball have come mainly from Fabregas. If there's a lack of threat and intent isn't that just the same as parking the bus, but doing it in possession?

Nailed it.

[Chavvie]

No so much boring as annoying.  The way that nearly every time Portugal were trying to break and a Spaniard went down to try and stop the game was really irritating.  For all their pretty passing, they're as cynical and snidey as they come.  Crowding the ref and trying to get players booked... Xavi is a master at that one.

Actually that's it...they are fucking annoying. They'd be annoying to play against cos you'd be chasing shadows and they're annoying to watch. When you do win the ball or its a 50/50 challenge they're annoying cos they will foul you or roll about.

[Juan Loco]

It's all subjective at the end of the day, and you are entitled to your opinion.

But you are juan big loser.

You just love it because they nicked the idea off your beloved Wenger.

[beardsley4ever]

Boring compared to the way they played in 2008?

Yes

Boring compared to most other teams?

No

Spot on.  I love the way they play, but the movement has slowed, as has the cutting edge.  They are missing the runs behind the fullbacks that came from Villa.  Torres being out of form has really hit them this tournament.

[Hank Scorpio]

One other thing, since around 2008, teams have adapted to Spain's style of play.  They know what they are about and the attention that the world champions label brings will mean teams are more than prepared.

I do think Spain are devoid of ideas at the moment.  They are kind of struggling to cope with the fact that other teams have adapted to their approach to exploit the few weaknesses Spain have.  But they have still made it through to the final and that's pretty impressive even if it's not with the same swagger.

I can't say that they are boring.  That's my opinion because possession based football is like porn for me.  It's what I grew up on and I'll always love it.

[Hank Scorpio]

You just love it because they nicked the idea off your beloved Wenger.

Fuck your couch, Juan.

[ghost1359]

They're out of form but they're far from boring. It's all about taste though isn't it? Personally I find Spain's movement off the ball just as interesting if not more so than what they actually do with the ball. They did definitely look flat last night but I think a lot of that is down to Del Bosque's choices & form of some of the players. Spain, though it loathes me to say it are a lot more dynamic when Torres leads the line & the exclusion of Pedro has been baffling. The way Silva has been playing I'm very surprised we've not seen anything of Mata as well. For the life of me I don't think I'll ever understand the obsession with Jesus 'look how quickly I can run' Navas.

[Hank Scorpio]

Just throwing it out there, but what if you do that slightly higher up the pitch, but in possession of the ball?

Is the thing that makes Spain entertaining/positive the fact that they have possession? Because they rarely throw people ahead of the play with it. The only two players on the Spanish team who regularly move away from the ball seem to be the fullbacks. The rest of them move around the pitch making angles, but the few threatening runs off the ball have come mainly from Fabregas. If there's a lack of threat and intent isn't that just the same as parking the bus, but doing it in possession?

I don't think it's a lack of intent, Juan.  They are not in form at present and are reverting to a kind of safety measure.  And it's winning them matches.  That's pretty impressive.

[Juan Loco]

I don't think it's a lack of intent, Juan.  They are not in form at present and are reverting to a kind of safety measure.  And it's winning them matches.  That's pretty impressive.

I'll never deny they're impressive. At this point they're probably the best international team I've ever seen. I've never found them to have the same swagger as you do though mate. I suspect it will start to disappear with the next few generations because, y'know, they're winners now. But I think Spain's tournament play has been, erm, 'inhibited'. Especially so in the World Cup last time out. The Euros were slightly different in '08 because Russia went at them twice and got battered as a result. Their game against Greece as a dead rubber, against Sweden they were a bit 'meh' but got the belief from the last minute winner. Against Italy they were up against history and to be fair, in the final, they played well but the swagger was only there five minutes from the end when they knew it was theirs.

I don't necessarily think there's any more swagger or flair about these Spanish teams than the one they had in 2006. I think there's a hardened edge of cynicism and a bit of inhibition because they know that they've got the best squad in the world to choose from and they have to win something. That safety measure has been there all along I think. I don't blame them for it, but I don't find them as entertaining as Spanish sides who have failed in the past. They want and need to win and I think they've got about it - especially under Del Bosque - in the way that's least likely to seem them fall to an unlikely defeat.

Sunday will be their 10th knock-out game in 4 years. They've yet to concede but they've only scored more than once in two of those games, which hardly screams for attacking intent across three tournaments.

They're amazing at what they do, but given that they've now got the monkey off their back trophy-wise, they've got the most talented group of players to collect from, and the way their flagship teams set out to play football, I don't think it's necessarily feel underwhelmed or bored by how the Spanish play their game, and unlike four years or two years ago, they haven't got the weight of pressure where they need to end that trophy drought.

[wickedbark]

Was lucky enough to be in Amsterdam when you guys won the Eredivisie this year - went to some great parties!

I think Ajax and (previous) Liverpool sides have always had a kinship in playing beautiful football.

To stretch our analogy even further, I would say that beauty requires prettiness but also an element of power. Barcelona, for me, are a very pretty side but they lack power (Chelsea are the reverse which is why they dont generally play beautiful football either).

Part of Liverpool's success in the past has been marrying the power of an English side with the technical "prettiness" learned from the continent. I would say Ajax have done the same with their attacking play married to the total football philosophy. Sacchi's Milan are another example of a beautiful side - as are the current German team.

PS Your English is so good I thought it was your native tongue till you just pointed out it wasn't.

Imma stretch the comparison a bit.
I wouldnt say LFCs immense domination in the past wasnt so much based on the marriage of English football culture with continentel technical ability but the realization, or adoption, of a filosophy on how to properly play football at its highest level: total football. Michels realized it. Shankly did too. Cruijff understood it. So did Dalglish. Both Ajax and LFC have imo not performed to required standards in the last tweny odd years because this earlier "advantage", ie the innate superiority on the field of play, led both of these titans to rest on their laurels.

Sadly, domination on the field led to complacence and stagnation off the field. The introduction of the PL, in the case of lfc,  and the Bosman ruling , in the case of Ajax, spelled disaster for us, those titans of football, whos main advantage over competitors had been a filosophical one, not an economic one. So twenty years pass and except for the occasional European succes ( Ajax 95, LFC 2005 ) both clubs have fallen from perennial competitors to occasionaly competing mostly because the backwardness of the board of directors/ financial directors /technical board / grande carrousel of managerial incompetence ( in the case of ajax i believe 12 in the last 14 years or so) failing to provide the first teams the means to be constantly competitive, not because of a faltering filosophy.

Ajax is still a relatively big club because its tradtional pillar besides total football is its youth system. The youth system covers up the massive incompetence surrounding almost all other aspects of the club. LFC is still a relatively big club because its traditional pillar besides total football is its support. The massive support LFC enjoys, the reverence of Shankly and his teachings are the only things that have kept LFC somewhat competitive whilst enduring chronic and endemic directorial incompetence. 

And then, at almost exactly the same time, Dalglish and Cruijff return to "their clubs" to sorten out things. The Velvet Revolution organized by Cruijff in the last 18 or so months has most Ajax fans dreaming of glory yet again. He went comintern. He ruthlessely started purging all the old boys networks and all the incompetent managers. He has made Ajax believe again. And after an excruciating, previously unimaginable, wait of seven whole seasons without a eredivisie title we are on top again and have won succesive eredivisie titles with a  young and exciting manager, Frank de Boer, who we are convinced will guide us to European glory again.

I think FSG will purge the directorial and organizational mediocrity out of LFC and i think Rodgers could do what de Boer did and lead LFC to 19 eventually, just not in his first season. 

Im sorry about going off topic but im always amazed about the similarity between Lfc and Ajax. And offcourse, the similarity between Everton and Feyenoord.


Hmm just realized i just unwittingly applied Hegemonic Stability Theory to ajax/lfc history. It works i guess. 

[surfer]

Watching Spain last night reminded me of a boxer who has gone 8 rounds jabbing away...just doing enough to stay ahead.

There was a period in the first half, where Portugal had been on top for 5-10 mins, and all of a sudden Spain just appeared to turn on the gas and looked like they could steam roll Portugal away.

Then the last quarter of the match, you could see Spain's tactic had worked...Portugal were dead on their feet and looked susceptible to counters and moves at pace.

Quite clearly Del Bosque had set up Spain to wear Portugal down, similar to when a boxer punches himself out. The last 15 mins and extra time, Portugal had nothing. You had a feeling if Spain got one, they could have got 2 or 3.

However, I think they were infinitely more effective with Navas and Pedro on the pitch. If it were me, I'd go for same 11 except replacing Silva for Navas and Negrado for Pedro.

At least then, Spain have two pacey players who give the threat of running in behind the defence. This in turns pulls the defence back, opens up the midfield and allows Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Alonso room to work.

Boring? No! Fascinating...yes!

Good man, love a boxing analogy.

The issue with playing Navas and Pedro from the beginning as suggested, is then you won't quite have the 'first 8 rounds' of an opponent tiring himself out as Navas especially, is the kind of player who only has one way of playing, however much you try to coach him. It's his strength also, his direct play. Pedro is more flexible in his game, still the effect would be a slight dilution of Spain's ability to retain the ball, and also you dilute the impact these players have on the game, compared to if they had come on as subs. The same point well made here in the other spain thread:

I think Pedro's been great every time he's appeared on the pitch.

But then you have to wonder if he and Navas are being used in exactly the right way. Seeing Pedro and Navas coming off the bench when you've been chasing shadows for 70mins is hardly ambrosia for defenders.

The fact they're having such an effect coming off the bench is as much an arguement to keep them there as it is to start them, imo.

Del Bosque has a clear set-up in mind it's based on wearing an opponent down, probing away without committing, and if they're still locked towards the end of games, to up the tempo and introduce direct players. Doubt he's going to significantly change that for the final. That said, maybe Pedro or Iniesta are better options to play centrally as the attacking mid compared to Fabregas while still executing their plan well. Navas doesn't fit that as a starter ; maybe it's also part of the reason for Torres not playing, although if it was the Liverpool Torres the sheer penetration of the player would have forced the inclusion, even at the slight expense of the game plan.

Boring? Well, in the sense of not seeing many attempts to 'force' the situation / risk players forward and pass into the area, sure. Would have loved to see Croatia get something from the group match. Seeing them retain as part of their overall strategy, the effectiveness of what they do and the logic in it...that's not boring. The execution also requires immense bravery, especially in the defensive third.

 

[Noelle]

They're amazing at what they do, but given that they've now got the monkey off their back trophy-wise, they've got the most talented group of players to collect from, and the way their flagship teams set out to play football, I don't think it's necessarily feel underwhelmed or bored by how the Spanish play their game, and unlike four years or two years ago, they haven't got the weight of pressure where they need to end that trophy drought.

Although the flipside to this last point is Spain of the past few years are easily one of the best international sides ever, if not numero uno. This is a chance for them to make history and win three major titles in a row. That brings its own, new kind of pressure.

[Hyypia headers]

Just throwing it out there, but what if you do that slightly higher up the pitch, but in possession of the ball?

Is the thing that makes Spain entertaining/positive the fact that they have possession? Because they rarely throw people ahead of the play with it. The only two players on the Spanish team who regularly move away from the ball seem to be the fullbacks. The rest of them move around the pitch making angles, but the few threatening runs off the ball have come mainly from Fabregas. If there's a lack of threat and intent isn't that just the same as parking the bus, but doing it in possession?

Good point. As said, they are not as good as they have been, and they don' t play as fast as Barcelona. And that does make them less attractive than what they used to be, 4 years ago. The lack of threat is obvious and adding a striker that can actually make a run for a ball, like Torres or Villa, would make it al better.

But I don't think it is the same as parking the bus. Anyone can park the bus and start throwing bodies at the ball in the box to block anything and smash it out of play. That takes no skill or training or a system, you just need 11 men willing to do that. You and I can do that. Keeping the ball, moving it around, building an attack, and the patience that comes with that, is a little bit harder to do I believe.

[Spanish Al]

How can anyone find it boring? The way they keep the ball is fascinating. Its not great attacking football, but it doesnt need to be. They step it up when they need to and but for some good goalkeeping in extra time last night theyd have won after shifting up through the gears.

[Filler.]

I didn't 'vote' as I don't agree with either of the simplistic options given. No dig Andy. I have tho found them a little tedious to watch. I could look it up, but I think they've had a 1-0, a 1-0 and a 0-0 recently. Defensively... they have it wrapped up almost... one of the great (and will be looked upon as such in years to come) attacking sides, but actually, defensively, they're astounding. They can unravel anyone, but they undoubtedly over play the game and have over complicated it for me.

What is it now for Del Bosque?.. 50 odd games and haven't won in 8 of them. That's daft.

They've out sexied themselves tho. I just don't see them mixing it up any more, and have the sense to play the game they're in - it's gone a bit safe. They know they can pass a team to death and unfortunately, that's what they're doing. Comparisons to England and what we'd like to see at Liverpool is a distraction of argument. I'd love to see half of what Spain do at Liverpool, but that's not the point.

I mean why did they choose Negredo the other night? Baffled by that. Llorente yes, Torres? -  who apparently had the ball for 23 seconds, 4 shots, two goals and looked alive again in a group game of theirs - he never came on.

There was a moment last night towards the end of the game where Fabregas was the only player playing down the middle... ball was being passed about and Fabregas went and looked for it behind him... just nobody in there at all.

Full of great players, and way beyond (a galaxy) England (who WILL bore everyone to death of the next two years), but over-egging? They almost define the over - egg.

[Chakan]

I think they miss Villa upfront, but I don't find them boring.

[Tomaldinho]

Those who find Spain winning everything boring obviously don't remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ODfbg2YjY&feature=related

[lankyguy007]

There's a difference between finding something boring and not finding something exciting. Some of you may not find it exciting but instead find it fascinating to watch. If you genuinely find it boring then I'd suggest you're not as passionate about football as you think you are.

[Filler.]

Those who find Spain winning everything boring obviously don't remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ODfbg2YjY&feature=related

It's interesting to see that again... in particular the moment when Pepe drags Llorente out and waxes about how he pulls all the central defenders this way and that. Where's that gone?

[greyfade]

Those who find Spain winning everything boring obviously don't remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ODfbg2YjY&feature=related

Everytime I see it. Boss.

[Agger]

Those who find Spain winning everything boring obviously don't remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ODfbg2YjY&feature=related

It's not boring that they're winning everything, some people just doesn't like the way they're playing at the moment.

And that's from 2010, they played brillantly then, as they do now for that matter, and were a lot of fun to watch.

[HighSix]

Rather watch 90 minutes of Spain than 7 of that!

[fowlermagic]

Results outweigh style every day of the week. They obviously favour lets walk it into the net approach rather than giving away possession by low % shots. It can be very frustrating to see them tip tap it about but that extra time performance was a joy to watch as when they are on they are the best team by a mile in recent history.

[Hazell]

Like everything else, it comes down to personal opinion. Mine is that they're far from boring. Keeping the ball and being comfortable in possession is something that I enjoy watching. I hope to see much more of it on Sunday and in two years time.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Boring?

Jesus. I guess they should play with 2 strikers, a big man and a little man, and go long more. That'll be more exciting.

I'd give a bollock for us to be as good as this, and playing the way they do. The player they rely on as a figurehead, to stretch the play and to be their main goal threat, is out of the tournament.

Comedy thread. A side with Xabi, Xavi, Iniesta and Silva in are certainly not boring, at least to me. I love possession football. To me, the more a side has the ball, the more likely you are to have sustained, long-term success.

[Agger]

But it feels like they can win more comfortably against the likes of Portgual. Just one striker and play like they did in 2010.

But maybe it's just me being ignorrant and it's not that simple. It feels like, however, they have their toes on their breaks and can play even better and win their games before extra time.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Personally, I think they've looked best with no striker and either Pedro or Navas breaking from deep.

They have that much possession, and the other sides against them defend so deep, a traditional striker is a waste of a place. Their contribution will be little compared to a midfielder who can contribute going forward.

[Effes]

I am bored of watching them

The Germans have been great to watch

[Aristotle]

What quantifies boring though? Can something be boring and enjoyable?

I like the Godfather and Goodfellas. Is Schindler's List more boring than Saving Private Ryan? I enjoy watching both 2001: Space Oddity and The Empire Strikes Back. Just because one team is more "boring" than another doesn't mean you can't appreciate what they accomplish and how they do it.

[Geezer08]

I think they're boring as fuck and I can't stand some of the moral superiority that has surrounded how they play the game.

They are amazing though, and if I had an emotional investment in that team, their style of football wouldn't bother me in the slightest, because they always win. I don't though, so I'm allowed to find it boring as fuck, because I think it is.

I don't see what England, Liverpool or Barcelona has to do with it to be honest. It's just Spain and Spain alone, and I find them boring and negative in possession. They're the most cautious team I can ever remember watching, but they're also the most successful.

But that is not Spains problem, the keep on passing and they keep on winning. It is up to the opponents to find a way to get the ball off Spain and pose a threat to them. 

It is the opponents that are dull to watch, they all do the same pack the midfield and hope for a counter. I am not saying it is easy to stop Spain, but the criticism of Spain is just jealousy

[Juan Loco]

but the criticism of Spain is just jealousy

No, it's criticism based on personal preference. This is the moral superiority thing that I hate. You are allowed to find Spain boring.

It's not about the opposition really. Bit sick of that shout. I don't recall anyone ever telling people that Chelsea weren't entertaining because it was up to the opposition. Obviously it's up to the opposition to find a route to victory, but the debate isn't over the effectiveness of Spain. That's not up for debate really. It's about over how entertaining they are, and that's much more subjective. You can also admire how effective something is without finding it entertaining.

Personally I enjoy possession football, but not possession for possessions sake. I like a team who are all comfortable on the ball, but who aren't afraid to throw men beyond it. I would prefer to watch Germany every day of the week, but I still think Spain will beat them.

[scatman]

But that is not Spains problem, the keep on passing and they keep on winning. It is up to the opponents to find a way to get the ball off Spain and pose a threat to them. 

It is the opponents that are dull to watch, they all do the same pack the midfield and hope for a counter. I am not saying it is easy to stop Spain, but the criticism of Spain is just jealousy

agreed, it's the opponents that make them boring, well ive said that thrice in this thread now

[jotirori]

No, it's criticism based on personal preference. This is the moral superiority thing that I hate. You are allowed to find Spain boring.

It's not about the opposition really. Bit sick of that shout. I don't recall anyone ever telling people that Chelsea weren't entertaining because it was up to the opposition. Obviously it's up to the opposition to find a route to victory, but the debate isn't over the effectiveness of Spain. That's not up for debate really. It's about over how entertaining they are, and that's much more subjective. You can also admire how effective something is without finding it entertaining.

Personally I enjoy possession football, but not possession for possessions sake. I like a team who are all comfortable on the ball, but who aren't afraid to throw men beyond it. I would prefer to watch Germany every day of the week, but I still think Spain will beat them.

I think your opinion is perfectly undersdantable Juan.

With regards Germay, in case they meet in the final, they will attack Spain with their maradonian talented young players right ? will they  try to disallow the Spanish game and summit the Spaniard to the Germany game they have been playing in this tournamente right? how dissapointing if they dont try it dont you think so?

If Germany decide to chage their game instead  and the  lose, do you Think people will say : one of these days Germany did not come up, Spain are boring etc...?

[pinky]

I don't know where the debate lies. It will be boring for those who tend to find cautious passing, non-direct style dull, and it won't for those who don't. In some stadiums in the world that approach would be welcome and in others it wouldn't too much. End of story.

[MOZ]

Not boring, but they do suffer from V D Bosque desperately trying to do things 'his way'. When the shackles are off they are incredible to watch but the current Coach tries to eliminate any risk from their game; Barca leave themselves much more exposed than Spain ever do. This is not s criticism, as it is probably required at international level but it has created some of the recent comments.

They are not 'boring' but they are 'sensible' and 'safe', especially when in possession. This gives the impression that they could always step up a gear but never seem quite willing to do so.