Topic: "Spain are boring"

[Samee]

I hope Germany win tonight and tear into Spain on Sunday, hopefully bringing the best out of the Spanish.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Lol some on here actually think the France game was exciting, i am seriously struggling to believe that.

Exciting perhaps not but it was fascinating, enthralling, enlightening, impressive. Certainly not boring.

[WEST HAM PAUL]

Germany are more exciting to watch attacking wise in making chances up front  So I hope they win it

[Coolie High]

Laughable stuff and the reason England will never win anything ever again. Until that mindset changes anyway and under the leadership of the owl it never will.

How is this the reason England will never win anything?

No one is saying Germany is boring, they play possession football as well don't they?

[KERRYKOP]

I hope Germany win tonight and tear into Spain on Sunday, hopefully bringing the best out of the Spanish.

No doubt they will, but I have a feeling it wont be too unlike the first half last night, maximum effort from the Germans,  control from Spain.

[wickedbark]

Spain for me is a very boring and dull side. Same as Barca.

Barca and Spain have copied the TOTAL football style of Ajax, Michels en Cruijff and turned it into a boring, negative and feminine style of playing.
Ajax attacks with the ball, spain and barca defend with the ball.

Ajax total football is based on positive style of playing ie. more attacking, riskier, more direct, utilizing more imagination or to put it bluntly: its an attacking filosophy based on a supreme confidence in ones ability and in the team to play utterly dominate and methodically destroy opponents. Barca and Spain dont methodically destroy opponents..  its just a bunch of really talented individuals passing around to each other, trying to bait the opponent and waiting patiently untl the opponents fucks up defensively.
This, to me, isnt a sign of methodic destruction of opponents a la the ajax school. Ajax doesnt wait until the opponents fuck up, it methodically carves the opponent a new one. Ajax '95 averaged 46 backpasses per game to Van der Sar in order to stretch the field of play, to create the spaces to carve teams up. Spain/ Barca dont do that. They just play what we here in Holland would call  'het positiespel' or in english the "position-game". Take one or two touches, pass and move, repeat until defender fucks up. Nothing special about that imo especially with the players del bosue has available.

 Barca and spain play football negatively imo. The play is based on the concept of possessing the ball at ALL times, this even supercedes the notion of attacking with the ball. This implies fear. A fear of losing the ball, a fear of falling 1-0 behing, a fear to utilize available  individual talent and footballing imagination at its maximum capacity.

So yeah my verdict would be for both spain and barca that they are both boring to watch relative to the individual talent comprising those two sides. You would expect more risk-taking, more forward-thinking and more self-confidence from the calibre of players in those sides.

[Hank Scorpio]

I don't know how to phrase this in a non-patronising way but if you've ever played football then I don't think you can find what Spain do boring.  Unless you have an agenda.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

wickedbark  - that is either the best fishing post ever or.....

[Samee]

I haven't found most of them boring at all, they're great to watch. Football doesn't have to be end to end to be enjoyable you know.

Yes but when there's basically no chances being created at either end at all, it gets a little tedious. You might enjoy a team just passing the ball over and over again without any penetration but I don't.

Whats wrong with praising them as well, they absolutely deserve it.

Well they obviously deserve praise, as I've said their record speaks for itself. My annoyance grows from the holier than thou attitude that Spain are some sort footballing Gods who play football 'the way it should be played'. The reason people say that is because a team playing attacking passing football is a lot more entertaining to watch than a team sitting back. Spain are playing defensive passing football though and really, it's no more fun to watch than Greece at times.

[wickedbark]

wickedbark  - that is either the best fishing post ever or.....

or a commonly shared opinion over here in amsterdam? Most of my mates agree on this.

This is why people call Ajax fans arrogant i guess.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

or a commonly shared opinion over here in amsterdam? Most of my mates agree on this.

This is why people call Ajax fans arrogant i guess.

You beat me to the punch

[Samee]

Exciting perhaps not but it was fascinating, enthralling, enlightening, impressive. Certainly not boring.

Nope. That would be the Italy vs Spain match. You could use all those words to describe both teams using unusual systems and Italy seeming to crack Spain's code.

The France game was just plain shit. France never looked a threat and Spain always looked comfortable.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

If you find winning boring then they are extremely boring.

[Samee]

If you find winning boring then they are extremely boring.

Just like Greece in 2004?

[Hank Scorpio]

"Nothing special"

[wickedbark]

You beat me to the punch

just to make sure. its not that i find the way barca/spain play to be boring, I just think that relative to the footballing talent they have coupled with the "knowledge" obtained from Michels en Cruijff about total football... they underperform. They should be able to make it more exciting, to play more arrogant outrageous passess and to complete dominate opponents, and not just dominate on a footballtechnical level like they do now.

I guess its just the legacy of Michels, Cruijff end van gaal that forms the footballing" worldview of Ajax supporters. The idea that winning isnt enough, that is also must be beatiful. Anyone who watched ajax in the late 80s and early 90s understands this, and can understand the expectations of the fans. It isnt real arrogance, we ( ajax ) supporters have just seen and witnessed things others havent. Which is something lfc supporters claim as well. We're not so different, really. 

[Samee]

Laughable stuff and the reason England will never win anything ever again. Until that mindset changes anyway and under the leadership of the owl it never will.

Erm what?

[KERRYKOP]

Well they obviously deserve praise, as I've said their record speaks for itself. My annoyance grows from the holier than thou attitude that Spain are some sort footballing Gods who play football 'the way it should be played'.

Fair enough

The reason people say that is because a team playing attacking passing football is a lot more entertaining to watch than a team sitting back. Spain are playing defensive passing football though and really, it's no more fun to watch than Greece at times.

Really, really? One of the many differences between the two sides and the most telling is Spain have the ball, Greece do not.

Personally I get great enjoyment out of watching Spain and Barca patiently hold possession for five minutes before carving out a chance, usually a few brilliant things have go on to make it happen.

[Chakan]

Must be boring to win all those games and have high expectations.

[eirwen]

I think people are just expecting too much. Playing a tournament after a long season with most of your players exhausted is not easy. They did the bare minimum to win. Yeah Del Bosque fucked up yesterday with the selection and they could have lost it, but most of the time they are still in control. And their skills and work rate are amazing to watch, like a great machine. Maybe people just want more individual brilliance, like Messi at Barca or Zidane with France. But Spain is all about the teamwork.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Nope. That would be the Italy vs Spain match. You could use all those words to describe both teams using unusual systems and Italy seeming to crack Spain's code.

The France game was just plain shit. France never looked a threat and Spain always looked comfortable.

So that is France that are boring then.  You can hardly lambast Spain for being "comfortable".  England must yearn to be comfortable, they never managed it at any point in four games and were certainly distinctly uncomfortable against France.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

Just like Greece in 2004?

Yes. I found it interesting from a tactical point of view how a team like Greece managed to beat much bigger, better opponnents. BUt the interest was relatively short lived because their tactics didnt produce sustained success (and therefore sustained interest).

Thanks for the example.

[Stevie93]

It's all a matter of taste.

People don't realise that Barca would play like this, if they didn't have Messi.

[Samee]

Fair enough
 Really, really? One of the many differences between the two sides and the most telling is Spain have the ball, Greece do not.

Point? Both styles can be boring.

Personally I get great enjoyment out of watching Spain and Barca patiently hold possession for five minutes before carving out a chance, usually a few brilliant things have go on to make it happen.

Personally I love watching Barca and not Spain. There's a difference between the two.

[SMD]

France being utter shit doesn't really reflect on Spain though.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

Spain for me is a very boring and dull side. Same as Barca.

Barca and Spain have copied the TOTAL football style of Ajax, Michels en Cruijff and turned it into a boring, negative and feminine style of playing.
Ajax attacks with the ball, spain and barca defend with the ball.
../snip/...

I agree with most of your post except this part.

As you point out they are focussed 100% on controlling the game and winning it - evrything else comes secondary to that including entertaining the crowd.

To me that's masculine. Like a belt. Its unflashy - directed at doing a single job well.

The minute you drop focus from winning the game and put energy instead into how it looks in order to make it more attractive it becomes more feminine. That's why little girls have bows and tassels stiched onto their clothes which don't do anything. So maybe we'll see some of those on the new Ajax kit? 

[scatman]

Like I said earlier, you can't blame Spain for being boring, it's the opposition.

Samee, you must have missed the Chile and Paraguay games in the World Cup, both were brilliant encounters.  Paraguay gave it a good go and should have scored twice near the end, just seeing Bielsa's manic formation and his speedy players cause Spain problems all over until sendings off was great too in the Chile game.

Recently Argentina trounced Spain 4-0, Costa Rica took the game to them and drew 2-2.

Notice what the difference is in all those teams? None are European, and they all caused more problems than any European side has.

[Samee]

So that is France that are boring then.  You can hardly lambast Spain for being "comfortable".  England must yearn to be comfortable, they never managed it at any point in four games and were certainly distinctly uncomfortable against France.

Yep I totally understand that. Have said earlier in the thread that it's fair enough if Spain play in third gear as long as it's getting them results. It's just that a team with their has it in them to kill games off a lot earlier than they do. By not going for the jugular earlier they put themselves at risk too like last night.

[KERRYKOP]

Point? Both styles can be boring.

Massive difference in ability and moral conviction. Its unfair to compare the two they are opposite ends of the football idealogical spectrum.

Personally I love watching Barca and not Spain. There's a difference between the two.

Messi being the difference.

[Samee]

Like I said earlier, you can't blame Spain for being boring, it's the opposition.

Samee, you must have missed the Chile and Paraguay games in the World Cup, both were brilliant encounters.  Paraguay gave it a good go and should have scored twice near the end, just seeing Bielsa's manic formation and his speedy players cause Spain problems all over until sendings off was great too in the Chile game.

Recently Argentina trounced Spain 4-0, Costa Rica took the game to them and drew 2-2.

Notice what the difference is in all those teams? None are European, and they all caused more problems than any European side has.

I did say "almost all". I understand it's down to the opposition to bring Spain out of their shell and that's why I want to see Germany in the final. I'm just annoyed that, with the players at their disposal, they could and should be finishing teams off a lot earlier than they are.

[OneTouchFooty]

They get labelled as boring because they're quite negative in their play and choose to keep the ball rather than 'play the percentages' and lose the ball for the sake of attacking. Its lovely to behold little intricate passing triangles, movement and high levels of technical ability, but it doesn't get you on the edge of your seat like great teams of the past have. A team that struggles to create any chances or really pin the opposition back in the final third how can that be exciting to watch?

Plus goes to show they're human and beatable, if you approach them like the Portuguese did last night, they go to pieces and struggle to find a rhythm. Alonso giving the ball away constantly, Xavi struggling to make his standard 10 yard passes and the likes of Silva and Iniesta like passengers.

[bleedsred1978]

I think they have got word its the style Liverpool are trying to implement under Rogers and thus it must be rubbished at all costs. Who cares if it works, if Liverpool are involved it must be stopped.

[Samee]

Massive difference in ability and moral conviction. Its unfair to compare the two they are opposite ends of the football idealogical spectrum.

Results are all that matter. Both styles can be incredibly effective whilst also being boring, as Spain have shown.

Messi being the difference.

Or pace. And that Barca split opponents open over and over until they score.

[Renato]

I admire their style of play and am fascinated by their ability to keep the ball but to be perfectly honest I find them extremely boring to watch. They're a lot like Barcelona but the passing is slower, the players aren't as explosive and they're no where near as attacking or entertaining to watch.

I would love for Liverpool to play like this as it's obviously very effective but from a completely neutral standpoint of a normal fella who sits down in the evening to enjoy a good game of football without any intricate analysis i don't enjoy watching them at all

[Samee]

A team that struggles to create any chances or really pin the opposition back in the final third how can that be exciting to watch?

Thank you.

[OneTouchFooty]

Thank you.

If there's no end product or actual attacking threat it becomes just like watching a glorified game of piggy in the middle.

[mactifosi]

So that is France that are boring then.  You can hardly lambast Spain for being "comfortable". 

That is what I was coming here to post,  the teams which try to stifle Spain and stop them playing are boring.

You cannot blame Spain or Barca that teams like Chelsea sit back, rely on the counter attack and then try to completely stifle the contest.


Over the last few year or so teams have learnt how to counter this 'tiki-taki' system, rendering it less effective and less enjoyable to watch.
Spain found a way last night to adapt it with some width and it became more enjoyable to watch.

[Samee]

If there's no end product or actual attacking threat it becomes just like watching a glorified game of piggy in the middle.

Exactly.

You cannot blame Spain or Barca that teams like Chelsea sit back, rely on the counter attack and then try to completely stifle the contest.

Thing is, Barca still manage to split opponents open a number of times whereas Spain struggle to create at all.

Spain found a way last night to adapt it with some width and it became more enjoyable to watch.

That's how Barca usually play.

[wickedbark]

I agree with most of your post except this part.

As you point out they are focussed 100% on controlling the game and winning it - evrything else comes secondary to that including entertaining the crowd.

To me that's masculine. Like a belt. Its unflashy - directed at doing a single job well.

The minute you drop focus from winning the game and put energy instead into how it looks in order to make it more attractive it becomes more feminine. That's why little girls have bows and tassels stiched onto their clothes which don't do anything. So maybe we'll see some of those on the new Ajax kit? 

yeah, well I totally understand what you are saying. But thats the difference. From an Ajax perspective winning is nice, but you play for the people in the stands, so it has to be beautifull as well. Look at Cruijffs period as ajax coach. We won fuck all. From a trophy perspective he didnt do much, he didnt really fill the cabinet, but the football was spectacular, and the people loved it and still talk about it.

As for the feminine thing. Yeah well, you can see how ifyour filosophy is to play beautiful football within the framework of total football which is based on individual technical skill, then inhibiting your skill, and inhibiting your imagination to focus solely on passing the ball around, to wait until the opponents make a mistake is a feminine quality ( my english vocabulary is somewhat limited but i think feminine somewhat accurately translates most of what i mean ).

Why? Because its fundamental origin isnt a supreme confidence in ones own technical ability but a fear of losing possession, of a fear of upsetting teammates, the fear of making mistakes. Masculine would be the one with supreme confidence in his own ability, which is expected of ajax footballers.  More likely, However is that neither masculine nor feminine would be appropriate descriptors/terminology of footballing concepts as its highly subjective. Probably pointless debate whats masculine/feminine really.

Bows and tassels would improve our new kit, unfortunately.

[thegoodfella]

If there's no end product or actual attacking threat it becomes just like watching a glorified game of piggy in the middle.

I don't find that boring at all, in fact I find the Spanish brand of possession football quite interesting.