Author Topic: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss  (Read 2826 times)

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #40 on: July 1, 2012, 06:46:40 PM »
Yes but it depends on the legislation that is/was in place for the fixing of the libor rates.  This is what the SFO will be looking into and is why there is likely to be a change to the legislation as a result of this.

TT could there be a legitimate reason for making the law so lax in the first place - it looks to me suspiciously like the people who made that law did it for a reason and they should be bloody locked up too.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #41 on: July 1, 2012, 06:59:48 PM »
Marcus Agius is to resign as the chairman of Barclays, the BBC has learned ...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18665719
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #42 on: July 1, 2012, 09:38:16 PM »
TT could there be a legitimate reason for making the law so lax in the first place - it looks to me suspiciously like the people who made that law did it for a reason and they should be bloody locked up too.

The banks probably just asked and they were given it. A labour lord has said they got it wrong then said he hoped his bosses didn't hear him.

As for who drew the law up etc well you just need to look to brown, blair, balls etc.
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Offline stevedo

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #43 on: July 1, 2012, 10:36:12 PM »
The banks probably just asked and they were given it. A labour lord has said they got it wrong then said he hoped his bosses didn't hear him.

As for who drew the law up etc well you just need to look to brown, blair, balls etc.
And then to Maude, Cameron and Osborne at the time bemoaning how it was going to overregulate the banking sector.

Offline rednewbie

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #44 on: July 2, 2012, 05:53:51 AM »
Loans provided by Barclays to the Mugabe governement and relating to land reforms .

do you have any evidence of that? considering that barclays was actually set up in zim to assist white farmers. lets not spout crap

Offline Ginamos

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #45 on: July 2, 2012, 06:33:57 AM »
do you have any evidence of that? considering that barclays was actually set up in zim to assist white farmers. lets not spout crap

Google "Barclays Mugabe" there's your evidence.

Offline andy in warrington

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #46 on: July 2, 2012, 06:35:21 AM »
Those useless pair of twats Blair and Brown were happy to lightly regulate the banks as they were raking the taxes in from the profits they were making.   

Offline rednewbie

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #47 on: July 2, 2012, 10:50:44 AM »
Google "Barclays Mugabe" there's your evidence.

Quote
Any commercial bank operating in Zimbabwe must reinvest 40 per cent of its profits in government bonds. Barclays has arranged finance facilities worth $110m to Zimbabwean companies involved in tobacco, mining, sugar, manufacturing and the horticultural sectors. Last year Barclays bought South Africa's Absa bank for more than £2bn, making it one of the Mugabe government's biggest private financiers.

You would think that they were giving money directly to mugabe. Like i said, lets not get sensational. Even the full article is littered with inaccuracies and falsehoods about the land reform program and downstream effects, of which the main opposition party are now praising..


Offline SMD

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #48 on: July 2, 2012, 11:22:55 AM »
Yeah, I remember how this ends up. So let's not turn this into a Mugabefest.
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #49 on: July 4, 2012, 01:21:07 AM »
Yeah, I remember how this ends up. So let's not turn this into a Mugabefest.

Must...resist...

Offline El Campeador

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #50 on: July 4, 2012, 01:22:57 AM »
Marcus Agius is to resign as the chairman of Barclays, the BBC has learned ...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18665719

Agius was pushed onto Diamond's sword, but then got up, extracted the blade, and plunged it into Diamond's stomach.

Mind you, Agius is still bleeding to death.

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #51 on: July 4, 2012, 04:05:19 AM »

Offline peelyon

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #52 on: July 4, 2012, 06:01:00 AM »
The whole thing stinks.  If I could have access to the internet and live in a cave I would!

Offline -Q-

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #53 on: July 4, 2012, 08:39:11 AM »
Bank of England and the Labour government seem likely to be dragged into this.

I don't know why people are so appalled that the Bank of England would engage in the manipulation of LIBOR, when their chief job is to manipulate the base rate.
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #54 on: July 4, 2012, 09:20:30 AM »
Bank of England currently depositing large amount of dosh in Swiss bank account, meanwhile Diamond mysteriously stays quiet.

Fingers crossed that this doesn't happen and Diamond takes everyone with him.
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #55 on: July 4, 2012, 11:56:00 AM »
Here's TED talking sense about the whole LIBOR business.

Ready, Fire, Aim

So what I told you was true… from a certain point of view.

— Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars

The news out of Old Blighty this morning that Bob Diamond, CEO of Barclays, has resigned under pressure seems to indicate the ongoing LIBOR fixing scandal is finally gaining enough momentum to fly off the rails. The current rumblings are that Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England, wiggled his stately eyebrows disapprovingly and conveyed, with the minimum regulatory fuss, that, yes, indeed, he would be exceedingly obliged if the presumptuous Mr. Diamond were encouraged to remove himself forthwith to a less embarrassing locale. Like, say, Inner Mongolia. Perhaps unfortunately for Mr. King, Lord Turner of the FSA, and their minions, however, Mr. Diamond is scheduled to testify in front of a Treasury Select Committee tomorrow. Current odds in the interbank lending market are 5 to 3 that Mr. Diamond will celebrate Independence Day by setting off a few hundred fireworks under his former overlords’ derrieres. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Increasingly lost in the hubbub surrounding this folderol is the nature of the offense. Diamond himself admitted that Barclays did two things wrong. First, certain traders within the bank apparently cajoled, wheedled, and perhaps even bribed the employees charged with submitting Barclay’s LIBOR fixing over a period of several years in order to book profits or reduce losses on their own proprietary positions. While this manipulation may have benefited these individual traders, it is not at all clear that it benefited the bank as a whole. As a huge global commercial and investment bank, Barclays stands on the paying and receiving end of tens if not hundreds of thousands of financial contracts indexed to LIBOR, which is the base rate underlying hundreds of trillions of dollars of loans, mortgages, derivatives, and other financial contracts around the world. On many of these contracts, Barclays pays interest calculated as a spread to LIBOR, and on many others it receives the same. As a whole, one would only be able to determine Barclays’ exposure to LIBOR if one summed up all these obligations to determine its net exposure. It is an empirical question. If one takes the theoretical position that a huge bank like Barclays as a whole should normally be structurally short floating rates—that is, is a net short-term borrower which pays floating rate interest—then one can say an artificial reduction in LIBOR should in fact benefit it by reducing its borrowing costs.1

But that was not the intent of the individual traders and submitters manipulating Barclay’s fixings. They were just trying to pad their own P&Ls and apparently didn’t give a fig for their employer’s overall profitability. This was sheer individual profiteering, and the fact that it occurred repeatedly demonstrates that Barclays was riddled with lousy controls, inadequate supervision, and a culture of individual profiteering run amok. It is not an indictment of banking in general, it is an indictment of what a crappy bank Barclays was.2

On the other hand, Bob Diamond also admitted that, beginning around the time of the financial crisis, Barclays began to systematically underreport its LIBOR fixings to the BBA. It did this, he claims, because executives began to notice its self-reported rates were higher than those of its global peers, which seemed unrealistically low. Because Barclays began to fear that reporting higher LIBOR rates than its peers would undermine the perception of its creditworthiness in the marketplace, it guided its submitters down to the new, improved “market” levels. For what it is worth, Gillian Tett of the Financial Times and others at The Wall Street Journal had begun to report as early as the Fall of 2007 that something was rotten in the state of LIBOR. It seems that every major bank in 2007 and 2008 was submitting bogus LIBOR fixings with the intent to persuade the market all was well (when it most distinctly was not). The kicker is that Barclays now claims its ermine-cloaked stewards at the Bank of England strongly encouraged it to get in line.

Oops.

* * *
Of course the real question in this kerfuffle is whether this gross, sustained, systematic and perhaps regulator-sanctioned manipulation of base rates used to calculate payments due under hundreds of trillions of dollars of financial contracts worldwide—which I think we can safely say did in fact occur—actually claimed any victims. Certainly not among the banks, who neither could nor would lend or borrow at LIBOR rates from their peers during the financial crisis. Certainly not obviously among the myriad of borrowers who had borrowed at or swapped back into fixed rates, and who happily motored along paying their nice level payments without regard for the shenanigans in the floating rate market. Not obviously among the investment banks, hedge funds, and other active market participants and intermediaries who regularly transacted on both sides of the floating rate ledger either. Perhaps those parties who borrowed on a floating rate basis during the period of artificially low benchmark rates benefited, and the counterparties who loaned to them suffered?

But here’s the rub: virtually nobody borrows at LIBOR. Entities borrow from and lend to each other at LIBOR plus a spread, which is negotiated between the parties at the commencement of the contract. It is the spread which reflects the negotiated price for credit risk undertaken by the lender. Spreads are the true market price of credit. LIBOR is just a number pulled from a page on a Reuters or Telerate terminal.

And consider this: Since no bank believed either their own or any other bank’s LIBOR number back in 2007 or 2008—to the extent that many (most? all?) even refused to lend to each other at those rates—do you think it likely they did not incorporate that knowledge into the market price of credit they offered each other and every other potential counterparty? Do you really think commercial and investment banks did not at least implicitly add 25, 50, or even 100 basis points to their normalized credit spread in each and every deal to compensate for the bullshit discount priced into the reference rate? Do you really think every sophisticated investor and participant in the fixed income and derivatives markets—who could and did compare posted LIBOR rates with the banks’ real market borrowing costs displayed real time in credit default swap and other credit markets—was unaware of this dislocation, and did not price it into their own transactions? Let me suggest an answer to you: of course they did.

In fact, I suspect the only participants who obviously benefited from the systematic manipulation of LIBOR were those who had entered into contracts priced before that manipulation began. In other words, a counterparty who borrowed at LIBOR + 600 bps in 2005 definitely benefited from the fact that they only had to pay 600 basis points in 2007 and 2008, when the correct price may have been closer to 700 bps or more.3 Even banks and other entities which were structurally net short floating rates during this period were unlikely to have benefited fully from the implicit LIBOR discount, because their obligations rolled over on a short-term, almost continuous basis, as is the wont for active financial intermediaries. Each time a bank borrowed money or reset a credit spread during that period, you can be certain its lenders priced the loan at true credit market rates, unconstrained by whatever straw man the banks and their regulators had agreed to put on the Reuters and Telerate pages.

* * *
So, despite the huge numbers involved and its pervasiveness throughout the global financial infrastructure, it is far from clear to me that banks’s systematic manipulation of LIBOR led to vast wealth transfers from one set of market participants to another. No, the real damage this practice caused is what we are witnessing now. The current scandal is the last nail in the coffin of whatever trustworthiness banks may have had left after five years of crapping the bed.

Sure, nobody (or very few people) may actually have been ripped off by this behavior. Sure, systematic lying by banks about their creditworthiness during the financial crisis may have lulled the public into not panicking and triggering a wholesale global financial collapse. (Which most assuredly would have been A Bad Thing.) It may have even helped in more systemic ways.

But I think bankers must now get used to staying in the doghouse for a very long time. It might even be time to pick out curtains.
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Offline Spongebob Redpants

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #56 on: July 4, 2012, 12:06:19 PM »
do you have any evidence of that? considering that barclays was actually set up in zim to assist white farmers. lets not spout crap

Only as far as it's been reported . Do you have evidence to the contrary ?

Anyway , it was only one of a few examples as to why Barclays are not universally held in high esteem by some.

By the way Robert , take a fuckin chill pill lad  :wave
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #57 on: July 4, 2012, 12:28:44 PM »
I imagine Balls and Miliband are starting to regret pushing so hard for a detailed inquiry into this.

Offline rhylred

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #58 on: July 4, 2012, 05:05:04 PM »
Been watchin this afternoon if Diamond Bob drinks any more water the droughts right back on!

Offline -Q-

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #59 on: July 4, 2012, 05:36:46 PM »
Some interesting revelations today - the inquiry, however constituted, will be interesting.
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #60 on: July 4, 2012, 05:59:54 PM »
not seen it yet, that's tonights viewing (sad I know), but from what I have gathered he has said he only found out about the libor fixing this last month.  That is clearly bullshit as barclays have already said that they had spent £100m and 3 years investigating this and trying to sort it out.  Diamond is lying here as he knows he isn't under oath.  He is hiding something.
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #61 on: July 4, 2012, 10:41:30 PM »
not seen it yet, that's tonights viewing (sad I know), but from what I have gathered he has said he only found out about the libor fixing this last month.  That is clearly bullshit as barclays have already said that they had spent £100m and 3 years investigating this and trying to sort it out.  Diamond is lying here as he knows he isn't under oath.  He is hiding something.

Jerry's the man to go for. I worked at BarCap for their Exotics business in App Dev from 2008-2010. Jerry Del Missier at that time was head of trading. He's more closer to what the details were than Bob would have been. In regards to the whole traders shouting things out, at BarCap the 2nd and 3rd floors were the main trading floors. The glass staircase you see in the news with Bob next to it linked the two. The perimeter of the floors would hold the heads of desks. You would have heard them is the point.

Most firms will adjust their configurations for risk runs daily. Bumping in order to play the risk profile of their trades. Bain of the middle office lifestyle. When a front office trader tells middle office to do this there is no argument back. Most of those in the middle office role want to ensure they remain favoured so they can move to a more front office aligned role.

He could have sorted it though of he was upset. Huge baseball bat in his office from recollection  ;D
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #62 on: July 5, 2012, 06:50:04 AM »
yes but Diamond has said he only found out about the fixing last month but in the same questioning he said he'd been a interviewed about it by the authorities (and presumably barclays internal investigation).  That will not have been just this month.  He is clearly hiding something, and it's from his memo where the supposed "confusion" occurred.  There's more to come in regards to Bob Diamond and this.

Also heard that one of the lloyds directors who left in double quick time a month or two back was at barclays at the time of all this.
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #63 on: July 5, 2012, 08:22:46 PM »
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/why-is-nobody-freaking-out-about-the-libor-banking-scandal-20120703#ixzz1zgUoUsiN

A US perspective from the ever excellent Matt Taibbi

Why is Nobody Freaking Out About the LIBOR Banking Scandal?

The LIBOR manipulation story has exploded into a major scandal overseas. The CEO of Barclays, Bob Diamond, has resigned in disgrace; his was the first of what will undoubtedly be many major banks to walk the regulatory plank for fixing the interbank exchange rate. The Labor party is demanding a sweeping criminal investigation. Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England, responded the way a real public official should (i.e. not like Ben Bernanke), blasting the banks:

    It is time to do something about the banking system…Many people in the banking industry are hardworking and feel badly let down by some of their colleagues and leaders. It goes to the culture and the structure of banks: the excessive compensation, the shoddy treatment of customers, the deceitful manipulation of a key interest rate, and today, news of yet another mis-selling scandal.

The furor is over revelations that Barclays, the Royal Bank of Scotland, and other banks were monkeying with at least $10 trillion in loans (The Wall Street Journal is calculating that that LIBOR affects $800 trillion worth of contracts).

The banks gamed LIBOR for two semi-overlapping reasons. As noted here last week, there were instances of Barclays traders badgering the LIBOR submitters to "push down" rates in order to fatten their immediate bottom lines, depending on what they were trading or holding that day. They also apparently rigged LIBOR downward in order to produce a general appearance of better health, essentially tweaking their credit scores a few ticks upward.

Most intriguingly, or perhaps disturbingly, there were revelations last week that Bank of England deputy Governor Paul Tucker had a conversation with Diamond at the peak of the crisis in 2008. The conversation reportedly left Diamond, and subsequently his traders, with the impression that the bank had carte blanche to rig LIBOR downward in order to help allay spiraling public fears about the banks’ poor financial health.

British officials, and Tucker individually, deny that Tucker gave Diamond permission to rig rates. But a report by British regulators did conclude that the two were talking about Barclays LIBOR submissions on October 29, 2008, and that as a result of that conversation, Diamond came away with a “misunderstanding.” The Daily Mail quotes the Financial Services Authority report:

    However, as the substance of the telephone conversation was relayed down the chain of command at Barclays, a misunderstanding or miscommunication occurred.

    This meant that Barclays’ submitters believed mistakenly that they were operating under an instruction from the Bank of England (as conveyed by senior management) to reduce Barclays’ Libor submissions.

That is explosive stuff. Members of Parliament will be grilling Tucker tomorrow about those events in what is sure to be a far more combative and entertaining legislative inquiry than the Jamie Dimon dog-and-pony show we just went through here in the states in recent weeks.

The implications of that part of the story should be particularly chilling to Americans, who in recent years have been party to a number of revelations about strange and seemingly inappropriate contacts between senior regulatory officials and big bankers during the heat of the crisis.

We know that American officials in 2008-2009 were extremely concerned about the appearance of weakness in the financial markets, so much so that they may have resisted pursuing criminal prosecutions against big banks, and we also know that they spent a lot of time commiserating with Wall Street figures before and during the crisis.

If Bob Diamond and Paul Tucker were having these talks about LIBOR, is it fair to wonder what else Hank Paulson and Lloyd Blankfein were talking about in the 24 discussions they had in the six days following the AIG disaster? When Paulson had a secret meeting with the entire board of Goldman Sachs in, of all places, his hotel suite in Moscow, in June of 2008? Or what other material nonpublic information was exchanged when Paulson met with a gang of hedge fund chiefs at the offices of Eton Park management in July 2008, and laid out for them a possible scenario for putting Fannie and Freddie into receivership?

Anyway, the LIBOR story is leading the front pages of most of Britain’s dailies, it’s on TV, and it’s producing blistering editorials and howls of outrage amongst politicians and activists. But as compadre Yves Smith at Naked Capitalism put it, where’s the outrage here in America?

The big story on our shores in the last few weeks has been the health care ruling, which makes sense, but then after that… what? The heat? Tom and Katie? (There’s actually a story about how Katie can wear heels again, now that she’s not married to a short person). Joe Sandusky? Nightline’s big story tonight, which is already being hyped on the net, is about how fat Chris Christie is and why the hell he hasn’t done the bypass surgery yet:

    New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie opened up about his weight problem in an interview with ABC News and stressed he is "trying" to lose weight, a battle he's waged for 30 years, but said he's never considered gastric bypass surgery because it's "too risky."

    "I mean, see, listen, I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding among people regarding weight and regarding all those things that go into, to people being overweight," Christie said in an interview that will air Tuesday on "Nightline."

Glad to be informed! The New York Times, meanwhile, did chime in with a house editorial yesterday, and it was appropriately somber. And there has been some coverage in the financial press.

But to me what’s missing from all of this is the “Holy Fucking Shit!” factor. This story is so outrageous that it shocks even the most cynical Wall Street observers. I have a friend who works on Wall Street who for years has been trolling through the stream of financial corruption stories with bemusement, darkly enjoying the spectacle as though the whole post-crisis news arc has been like one long, beautifully-acted, intensely believable sequel to Goodfellas. But even he is just stunned to the point of near-speechlessness by the LIBOR thing. “It’s like finding out that the whole world is on quicksand,” he says.

So as far as the stateside press goes, I’ve got to assume the cavalry is coming soon. But when?
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #64 on: July 5, 2012, 10:56:13 PM »
So I hear the Tories got their way and there will only be a parliamentary inquiry into this Libor scandal. There's a surprise. Rather than a wider ranging, independent public inquiry which would've hopefully scrutinised the criminality of the banking industry, we're going to get an inquiry with a "tightly drawn" remit and one which will have little power to actually compel witnesses to give evidence or release relevant documents. Brilliant.

Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #65 on: July 6, 2012, 06:54:04 AM »
So I hear the Tories got their way and there will only be a parliamentary inquiry into this Libor scandal. There's a surprise. Rather than a wider ranging, independent public inquiry which would've hopefully scrutinised the criminality of the banking industry, we're going to get an inquiry with a "tightly drawn" remit and one which will have little power to actually compel witnesses to give evidence or release relevant documents. Brilliant.

If I remember corretly they can give this parliamentary enquiry the power to get witness' to testify under oath and I believe that is what they are doing.  There's also been a concession that there will be a leading barrister involved (another big payday for whoever that is).

The problem you have with this is that, unlike the leveson enquiry and the media, the banking system needs to get back to health very quickly to help the UK economy recover.  That won't happen with a 2 year enquiry (Milliband is being fanciful if he thinks that a public enquiry will only take 1 year), but the industry cannot wait that long for the findings and recommendations to be decided.

It's already going to take a long time for the banks to clear up existing problems before all the new regulations from this are decided and come into force.  That's time the banks or the economy don't have.  The sooner this is done, the sooner the uncertainty is lifted and the sooner the banks can get themselves sorted (hopefully with alot of outside help to ensure it's done correctly) and the sooner they can aid an economic recovery.

If there is then a need for a longer enquiry for a longer term look and improvement to banking then that should be considered.
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Offline hide5seek

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #66 on: July 6, 2012, 08:43:18 AM »
If I remember corretly they can give this parliamentary enquiry the power to get witness' to testify under oath and I believe that is what they are doing.  There's also been a concession that there will be a leading barrister involved (another big payday for whoever that is).

The problem you have with this is that, unlike the leveson enquiry and the media, the banking system needs to get back to health very quickly to help the UK economy recover.  That won't happen with a 2 year enquiry (Milliband is being fanciful if he thinks that a public enquiry will only take 1 year), but the industry cannot wait that long for the findings and recommendations to be decided.

It's already going to take a long time for the banks to clear up existing problems before all the new regulations from this are decided and come into force.  That's time the banks or the economy don't have.  The sooner this is done, the sooner the uncertainty is lifted and the sooner the banks can get themselves sorted (hopefully with alot of outside help to ensure it's done correctly) and the sooner they can aid an economic recovery.

If there is then a need for a longer enquiry for a longer term look and improvement to banking then that should be considered.
Or you could argue the Torie dont want to piss there mates off in banking sector. Telegraph is running a story that an enquiry could get in the way of criminal investigations. You know Tnbd you dont have to be Tory on everything. Personally i wont an independent enquiry with full powers and if it turns out ministers from labour helped rig libor or any other such shit went on i'd like to see the fuckers in nick (Balls Miliband, whoever). To me it looks like the Tories are hiding something.
« Last Edit: July 6, 2012, 08:58:21 AM by hide5seek »

Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #67 on: July 6, 2012, 12:42:32 PM »
I'm not looking at this from any political view point and I would appreciate it if you did not imply anything like that about me when you don't know me.  I am coming from the realities of the situation from working for a big retail bank. The regulations are coming thick and fast but it's not that that is stoping us from supporting the economy, it's the health of the business and the certainty of the business. A long public enquiry at this stage will put us back in the recovery another couple of years as we won't know what's coming. We need to know quickly and decisively.

the banks are broken and need to be fixed quickly otherwise it puts the whole economy at risk.

The media can wait for a public enquiry but the economy can't. Have one later when the recovery is well underway but not now when it'll completely choke off any hopes of a recovery.
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #68 on: July 6, 2012, 12:48:22 PM »
I'm not looking at this from any political view point and I would appreciate it if you did not imply anything like that about me when you don't know me.  I am coming from the realities of the situation from working for a big retail bank. The regulations are coming thick and fast but it's not that that is stoping us from supporting the economy, it's the health of the business and the certainty of the business. A long public enquiry at this stage will put us back in the recovery another couple of years as we won't know what's coming. We need to know quickly and decisively.

the banks are broken and need to be fixed quickly otherwise it puts the whole economy at risk.

The media can wait for a public enquiry but the economy can't. Have one later when the recovery is well underway but not now when it'll completely choke off any hopes of a recovery.

No, the banks need to be 'fixed' accordingly and correctly, that may not be conducive with the short term benefit's of the economy, however will be the platform for a long term transparency and regulated system going forward for decades to come.

Throwing something together quickly, could result in a 'bodge job' - This needs to be tackled definitively and thoroughly. That may have a resulting impact on the economy, and if it were me i'd be penalising the very banks for creating that in some fashion too, they are responsible largely for the mess we find ourselves in and they must also then bare the brunt of the solution and contribute massively to that solution.


Might i also add, that the changes could also be introduced in stages allowing the banks to prepare for the resulting changes that will effect their operations, rather than blanket legislation for all their operations to get their heads around too.
« Last Edit: July 6, 2012, 12:50:41 PM by Red Genius »
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #69 on: July 6, 2012, 01:42:40 PM »
The problem with your idea of penalising is that it makes things worse. For every £100m you fine a bank you reduce their lending capacity by £1bn. Don't get me wrong punishments need to be handed down but not if it's counter productive. Lock up the bankers who have committed illegal acts and do hand out punishment to banks but not at the expense of the economy.

Will you be happy to put forward proposals that see's ordinary businesses go to the wall and jobs lost just to have a lengthy public enquiry now?

Recommendations are needed quickly to clean alot of stuff up and then a deep investigation into banking and long term future needs to be conducted. Any inquiry cannot be run that is to the detriment of the innocent people. Leaving the system broken for further two years is not going to help
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #70 on: July 6, 2012, 01:45:39 PM »
Just to add, the main question that needs to be asked here is that given banking should facilitate,not be,the economy, should it be largely public owned to ensure it follows this? State aid issue would have to be addressed though.
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #71 on: July 6, 2012, 01:53:49 PM »
The problem with your idea of penalising is that it makes things worse. For every £100m you fine a bank you reduce their lending capacity by £1bn. Don't get me wrong punishments need to be handed down but not if it's counter productive. Lock up the bankers who have committed illegal acts and do hand out punishment to banks but not at the expense of the economy.

Will you be happy to put forward proposals that see's ordinary businesses go to the wall and jobs lost just to have a lengthy public enquiry now?

Recommendations are needed quickly to clean alot of stuff up and then a deep investigation into banking and long term future needs to be conducted. Any inquiry cannot be run that is to the detriment of the innocent people. Leaving the system broken for further two years is not going to help

I don't disagree with your logic, but that all works on the premise that banks are loosening their controls when lending to small businesses which is not what the evidence currently is suggesting. In fact i've listened to bankers tell me exactly that.

Here is a disillusioned banker saying just that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9362806/Bankers-ghetto-of-Notting-Hill-taxpayer-bail-out-paid-for-homes-says-Barclays-scion.html

Now, i'm never one for the Torygraph but this was actually a programme on the TV which happened to involve a disillusioned banker.

And this is precisely the problem with the banks, their complete freedom leading to a wild west attitude. We don't have any real powers to control what the banks do, even when we give them our own money to bail them out, with a directive to help stimulate the economy by allowing that money to be fed back into businesses, it just is not happening.

Charge them, put them in Jail and make a creative use of taxation in getting the banks to contribute back towards the government in order to help our public finances.

The reality is banks are the most powerful organisations in the world, they control the flow of everybody's money. That doesn't need a relaxed approach of regulation and legislation, that needs heavy control and complete transparency - they must be held accountable, and recognise this.
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #72 on: July 6, 2012, 06:00:32 PM »
I don't disagree with your logic, but that all works on the premise that banks are loosening their controls when lending to small businesses which is not what the evidence currently is suggesting. In fact i've listened to bankers tell me exactly that.


But banks can't loosen their purse strings at the moment as they have alot of things to correct before they can even start to lend again.

Where I work we have to contract our balance sheet massively before we can really start to lend on a meaningful basis again.  At the end of the last financial year we had something like 130% loan to customer deposit ratio.  That means we are lending £130 for every £100 of savings we take, we need to get that back towards a 1:1 ratio before we can really start to think about lending again.

Add to that it's costing us a lot to bring that funding gap down and the only way to cover that is through mortgages but people aren't remortgaging onto rates that bring us higher margins which is not what we need or want.

We have in the region of £150bn of non-core assets that we first need to have funded and second to try and reduce before we can think about the sorts of lending levels we used to have.

Add into that the requirements to hold certain levels of liquidity to avoid the liquidity crisis that started this financial crisis.  Then the need to maintain then increase capital to allow us the capacity to lend.

The plain and simple fact is that any changes we need to make to our practices etc that these scandals uncover need to be implemented at the same time as we rebuild our businesses.  If we do it whilst we are in this period of retrenchment the quicker we'll be able to get to a position to support the economy again.

Quote
Here is a disillusioned banker saying just that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9362806/Bankers-ghetto-of-Notting-Hill-taxpayer-bail-out-paid-for-homes-says-Barclays-scion.html

Now, i'm never one for the Torygraph but this was actually a programme on the TV which happened to involve a disillusioned banker.


Just to point out he isn't a banker.  He's also doing an interview that playing to the hatred of the bankers. 

Quote
“Where do you think that taxpayer money went? It went to bankers’ housing. Do you think it went to small businesses? That’s not how it works,” said Mr Mayhew.

That's shows he doesn't know what went on 4 years ago.  The money that was supplied was put in to rebuild the banks capital and to provide much needed funding and confidence.  But the fact is this money came at a time when the likes of HBOS were seeing £bns being withdrawn, this reduced their liquidity.  Due to this they had to rebuild not only their capital but their liquidity base that must meet minimum levels and for the UK banks this is an awful lot of money.

He seems to be concentrating on investment bankers, yet a good chunk of the £80bn bailout went on HBOS which didn't, and doesn't, have an investment bank.

Quote
And this is precisely the problem with the banks, their complete freedom leading to a wild west attitude. We don't have any real powers to control what the banks do, even when we give them our own money to bail them out, with a directive to help stimulate the economy by allowing that money to be fed back into businesses, it just is not happening.

But lending is a two way thing.  If there's no demand for lending the banks can't lend.  There will be some reluctance to lend, but the simple fact is the demand for debt is massively depressed from it's peak.  People and businesses are deleveraging (which is a good thing in general because we are too reliant on debt as a nation).  There's little to no confidence on both sides of the equation.

Our biggest trading partner is europe.  Now if you were the owner of a company that did a lot of business with europe would you try to put investment in with all the uncertainty over whether the euro will survive or not?

Quote
Charge them, put them in Jail and make a creative use of taxation in getting the banks to contribute back towards the government in order to help our public finances.

Agree but giving banks fines the way it is currently done is counter productive.  An idea would be for the government to set up a bank that lends to SMEs where it's capital base is funded from the fines levied on commercial banks.  The government can then lend directly to SMEs (at arms length of course given state aid issues) without having to contribute anything to the capital.  As per my example before, if the £60m fine the FSA levied were to go into this "bank" then it could lend £600m which the government would be able to arrange long term funding to avoid liquidity issues.

In pricipal this would be a good idea but the sparcity of fines and possible legal issues from the EU etc would potantially be issues.

Quote
The reality is banks are the most powerful organisations in the world, they control the flow of everybody's money. That doesn't need a relaxed approach of regulation and legislation, that needs heavy control and complete transparency - they must be held accountable, and recognise this.

Yes they should and that needs to happen quickly.

I've said for years, and people who actually know me will back this up, that bonuses for people who work for banks is wrong and shouldn't happen.  I receive a bonus, possibly hypocritical but I'm not going to put myself at a disadvantage to peers when I have a mortgage to pay, but I'm in a position that won't harm individuals but doesn't take away from my opinion that bonuses are wrong.

I'd prefer to see wages for the "down the salt mine" staff to be increased to largely compensate for the loss of bonus (as you can't punish those who are not responsible for this) but for the higher managers to lose their bonuses and see NO increase in salary to compensate.  This would save money for the banks and increase lending capacity and maybe start to restore some confidence.

Will we lose staff to other countries?  some maybe but there are a lot of people in this country who wouldn't want to work abroad and will probably do a better job than is currently happening.
So all say thanks to the Shanks

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Online Sinos

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #73 on: July 7, 2012, 03:19:40 AM »
This is worth a read if you want to understand what was going on.

http://alephblog.com/2012/07/06/an-analysis-of-three-month-libor-2005-2008/
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #74 on: July 7, 2012, 09:26:49 AM »
This is worth a read if you want to understand what was going on.

http://alephblog.com/2012/07/06/an-analysis-of-three-month-libor-2005-2008/

Not sure if you can understand it when it's just some statistician going on about stuff the layman won't understand.  I did a maths degree and it's going over my head.  Just looks like pretty colours on a series of graphs.

I'd like to see the libor data behind it, but unfortunately I don't know where it is available on reuters, might go fishing for it later.

One thing to point out with libor is that it is based on the rate banks lend to each other, in the second half of 2008 they weren't lending to each other beyond a period of overnight, so libor shouldn't have even have had a fixing or changed.
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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #75 on: July 7, 2012, 11:41:51 AM »
Just a quick question for any lawyer bods out there. Would there be any reason why the Proceeds of Crime Act (2002) could not be used regarding Mr. Diamond and any others unlucky enough to get caught?

I don't think anyone expects true justice to be done if these cases ever get to court, but if they could have all their money and big houses taken off them, people may start to have some faith in the system.
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #76 on: July 7, 2012, 01:27:10 PM »
Just a quick question for any lawyer bods out there. Would there be any reason why the Proceeds of Crime Act (2002) could not be used regarding Mr. Diamond and any others unlucky enough to get caught?

I don't think anyone expects true justice to be done if these cases ever get to court, but if they could have all their money and big houses taken off them, people may start to have some faith in the system.

I think in that situation the shareholders would get first dibs.
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #77 on: July 9, 2012, 04:11:49 PM »
http://business.time.com/2012/07/09/libor-scandal-the-crime-of-the-century/

LIBOR Scandal: The Crime of the Century

The latest interest-rate-fixing LIBOR scandal is being heralded as the most egregious in a generation

The 21st has been a banner century for financial and accounting scandals. Enron, the dotcom bust, the subprime-mortgage crisis and the bank bailouts have all contributed to the very low esteem in which the American public holds Corporate America in general, and high finance in particular. So it is no small feat that the latest interest-rate-fixing LIBOR scandal is being heralded as the most egregious in a generation or, as Robert Scheer put it in the Nation, “the crime of the century.”

LIBOR is an acronym for the London interbank offered rate, and it is the average interest rate the world’s largest banks pay when they borrow money. And this figure (or figures, as different LIBORs are calculated for different loan maturities and currencies) is used to price hundreds of trillions of dollars worth of financial instruments, from high-yield corporate debt to student loans.

Considering the importance of this benchmark rate and the financial industry’s recent track record, it is no wonder that many in the press are up in arms about Barclays’ recent admission that it intentionally submitted false rates in order to manipulate LIBOR for its own gain. Barclays has been fined more than $450 million by British and American regulators, but it is by no means the only bank thought to have deceptively tried to influence LIBOR — thus the outrage expressed this past week in the media.

Scheer, for instance, pulled no punches in his polemic:

    “Modern international bankers form a class of thieves the likes of which the world has never before seen. Or, indeed, imagined … It reveals that behind the world’s financial edifice lies a reeking cesspool of unprecedented corruption. The modern-day robber barons pillage with a destructive abandon totally unfettered by law or conscience and on a scale that is almost impossible to comprehend.”

So why did traders at Barclays submit false LIBOR figures? There are two ways in which Barclays and other large banks could have benefited. The first is confidence. Two of the safeguards built into the computation of LIBOR are that all the banks’ submissions are public, and the top and bottom four are removed from the calculation. This way no one bank can effectively raise or lower LIBOR in order to profit from prior knowledge of where the rate will be, and transparency will dissuade banks from trying.

But because of the public nature of the submissions, there is a danger that a bank will understate its LIBOR submissions in order to boost markets’ confidence in the institution. This prospect became more likely during the financial crisis, when a bank reporting high borrowing costs could have dire and perhaps fatal effects.

The more pernicious charge is that derivatives traders Barclays, along with several other as-yet-unnamed banks, colluded to influence LIBOR, not so that investors would have confidence in them, but so that they could reap profits on derivatives trades. According to a report in the Economist:

    “The sums involved might have been huge. Barclays was a leading trader of these sorts of derivatives, and even relatively small moves in the final value of LIBOR could have resulted in daily profits or losses worth millions of dollars.”

The first contention, that banks were systematically understating their borrowing costs, with the tacit support — as former Barclays CEO Bob Diamond alleged in hearings last week — of the regulators, is a serious one. Those responsible for this behavior should be punished, but future incidents of such behavior could be prevented by merely reforming the way LIBOR is calculated.

The second charge is graver, because it speaks to the moral compass, or total lack thereof, of the world’s financial professionals. Much of the American public believes that financiers are greedy scoundrels who will stop at nothing — including blatant fraud — just to make a buck. This is an oversimplification. Finance is a necessary and societally beneficial industry. But scandal after scandal has proved that the industry’s culture is deeply flawed, and that it has, as the Economist put it, a “rotten heart.”

So is the LIBOR scandal the crime of the century? The full extent of it has yet to be revealed, and if it is discovered that many more banks were lying about the rates at which they were borrowing, or worse, working together to defraud the greater public through LIBOR, then it’s hard to think of a recent corporate offense that’s more troubling. But, more important, the cumulative effect of these scandals is that the public and the government no longer trust the industry to set its own standards for acceptable behavior. Diminished confidence in the financial industry by businesses and the public will retard economic growth generally. And if an industry as vital as finance is unable to police itself, then government has the right — and perhaps the responsibility — to do more policing itself. Unfortunately, the price of that increased regulation, in whatever form it takes, will be borne by all of us.

http://www.thenation.com/article/168751/libor-crime-century#

Libor: The Crime of the Century

Forget Bernie Madoff and Enron’s Ken Lay—they were mere amateurs in financial crime. The current Libor interest rate scandal, involving hundreds of trillions in international derivatives trade, shows how the really big boys play. And these guys will most likely not do the time because their kind rewrites the law before committing the crime.

Modern international bankers form a class of thieves the likes of which the world has never before seen. Or, indeed, imagined. The scandal over Libor—short for London interbank offered rate—has resulted in a huge fine for Barclays Bank and threatens to ensnare some of the world’s top financers. It reveals that behind the world’s financial edifice lies a reeking cesspool of unprecedented corruption. The modern-day robber barons pillage with a destructive abandon totally unfettered by law or conscience and on a scale that is almost impossible to comprehend.

How to explain a $450 million settlement for one bank whose defense, in a plea bargain worked out with regulators in London and Washington, is that every institution in their elite financial circle was doing it? Not just Barclays but JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup and others are now being investigated on suspicion of manipulating the Libor rate, so critical to a $700 trillion derivatives market.

Caught as the proverbial deer in the headlights, Barclays Chairman Robert E. Diamond Jr. resigned this week and offered a plaintive defense to the British Parliament that he learned only recently that his bank was manipulating the index on which so large a part of international trade is based. That is plausible only if we assume he was paid $10 million a year to be deliberately ignorant. The Wall Street Journal had exposed this scandal fully four years ago but his bank continued to participate in it nonetheless.

“Study Casts Doubt on Key Rate” was the headline on the May 29, 2008, investigative report, which concluded: “Major banks are contributing to the erratic behavior of a crucial global lending benchmark, a Wall Street Journal analysis shows.” Even then, according to the report, it was known that the Libor rate was being manipulated “to act as if the banking system was doing better than it was at critical junctures in the financial crisis.”

Fast-forward four years to Diamond’s testimony before Parliament this week in which the CEO claimed his recent discovery of a pattern of interest manipulation by Barclays had made him “physically sick.” Who was to blame? According to the executive, subordinates acting behind his back.

The American-born banker, who has dual citizenship in the United States and Britain, is well versed in financial chicanery, having started by putting together derivatives packages at Credit Suisse First Boston back in 1996. He was compelled under parliamentary questioning Wednesday to admit that “I can’t sit here and say no one in the industry [knew] about the problems with Libor. There was an issue out there and it should have been dealt with more broadly.”

He couldn’t deny widespread chicanery within his bank because, as in the collapse of Enron a decade ago, investigators had uncovered an e-mail record of market manipulation so glaring that if the top executives were unaware, it was because they didn’t want to know.

As the New York Times editorialized: “The evidence, cited by the Justice Department—which Barclays agreed is ‘true and accurate’—is damning. ‘Always happy to help,’ one employee wrote in an email after being asked to submit false information. ‘If you know how to keep a secret, I’ll bring you in on it,’ wrote a Barclays trader to a trader at another bank, referring to their strategies for mutual gain. If that’s not conspiracy and price-fixing, what is?”

The US Justice Department made a deal with Barclays, and although it may prosecute some individuals in the scam, it agreed not to go after the bank itself. “Such an agreement makes sense only if that cooperation will allow prosecutors to nail other banks that have been involved in setting the rates, including potential cases against Citigroup, JPMorgan Chase and HSBC,” the Times editorial said.

Both Citigroup and JPMorgan Chase were reported by the Wall Street Journal years ago to be suspected of rigging the Libor interest rate. The leaders of those banks, despite such media exposure, clearly remained confident enough to continue on their merry way.

The sad reality is that they will probably get away with it. The world of high finance is by design as obscure and opaque as the bankers and their political surrogates can make it, and even this most recent crack in their defense of deception will soon be made to go away.
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #78 on: July 9, 2012, 10:52:29 PM »
http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/07/the-drowning-pool.html

The Drowning Pool
By James Howard Kunstler

     News that that a swarm of termites deep inside the British banking system have been fiddling the interbank interest rates (LIBOR) for years in order to systematically vacuum a few billion pence off the exchange floors for themselves is the latest blow to the credibility of the global money system - and probably a fine overture to a looming climactic implosion of the gigantic, creaking, smoldering, reeking, duck-taped edifice of broken promises, booby-trapped hedge obligations, counterparty follies, central bank euchres, sovereign flim-flams, and countless chicanes too various, dark, and deep to smoke out. Next, we'll probably hear that Lloyd Blankfein over at Goldman Sachs has been tinkering with the rotation of the earth in order to gain a few micro-milliseconds of advantage in his firm's high frequency trading rackets. After all, back in 2008 Lloyd himself claimed to be "doing God's work."
     In short, world banking is now hopelessly pranged, and I am not at all sure the project of civilization (modern edition) can continue by other means. The impairments of capital formation are now so profound that no one and nothing can be trusted. Not only are all bets off, but nobody will want to make any new bets - and by that I mean venture to invest accumulated wealth (capital) in some useful project designed to sustain human well-being. What remains is just the desperate hoarding of whatever remains in assets uncontaminated by the pledges of others to pony up.
     All this points to a dangerous new period of political history, a deadly Hobbesian scramble to evade the falling timber in a burning house as the rudiments of a worldwide social contract go up in flames. Such is the importance of legitimacy: the basic condition for governance, especially among supposedly free people. You can meddle in a lot of distributory issues - who gets what - but when you mess with the most basic operations of money to the extent that no one is sure what it's really worth, or what it represents, then you are deeply undermining society. This is now the condition that is set to blow up republics.
     Reality dislikes fraud and accounting tricks. Reality is serious about settling scores. Reality eventually intervenes and puts an end to monkey business. What will it be this time?
     Europe and America have been buying a month here, a month there (of a fragile, continuing status quo) on the installment plan. That's what QE, TARPs, LTRO, EFSF, Operation Twist, et cetera, are all about. Think of them as multi-billion dollar (euro) fire extinguishers bought on credit cards. Europe is now completely out of credit to buy more fire fighting equipment. For months now it has been down to whether Germany intends to keep supporting Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, Ireland, the French banks (and a few stray forgotten places between the backwaters of the Danube and the Gulf of Finland) without any say in how they manage their allowance. Much as Germany enjoyed the Ponzi heyday of the Euro zone, a big "tilt" sign now flashes ominously over the continent, signaling game over. All fall down. Everybody gets real poor real fast. M. Hollandaise over in Paris has already sealed his fate with his stupid plan to return to "go" on the Ponzi game-board. Merkel's tattered scarecrow of a coalition will blow away in the next national election. The Club Med countries will soon boil up in street-fighting, Holland and Finland will drink themselves to death, and across the channel outsider Britain will fizzle away to a burnt bowl of mulligatawny. That's what the end of the summer looks like to me.
      Over here, in this sorry-ass edition of America, the election will look more and more like a World Wrestling Federation staged dumb-show between two catamite hostages of a foul corporate oligarchy. Imagine that horse's ass Mitt Romney spending the next four months denouncing Obama-care, modeled on his own health care reform in Massachusetts, while Obama pretends he has a grip on an economy where the rule of law is absent due to Obama's own omissions and negligence.
     And if you can't stand that spectacle, just look around at America itself: a wasteland of futile motoring and discount shopping populated by depressed, overfed clowns bedizened with sinister tattoos, pretending to be Star Warriors. No nation ever seen in human history ever laid such a disappointing egg. Only to have it fry on the sidewalk
We arranged civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology We also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology This is a recipe for disaster We might get away with it for a while but sooner or later this combustible mix of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces CSgn

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2012, 07:44:41 PM »
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/10/pushing_libor/

The financially illiterate arts graduates MPs who tried to question Bob Diamond last week never stood a chance of getting down to how it was possible in the first place to screw with the single most important set of numbers in finance. So if you know an MP or someone at the Financial Services Authority, pass this on to them.


A few years ago, I wrote the code that calculates numbers for another part of the debt markets. Because banks have long shown frank incompetence in submitting prices and rates, more code was dedicated to filtering and checking than actually calculating what is basically an average.

Let’s assume you want LIBOR (the London Interbank Offered Rate) to go up and you know that the British Bankers Association (BBA) uses an inter-quartile filter. Out of the 15 to 16 rates that banks actually manage to submit (don’t get me started on how tough they find this decades-old task), the BBA bins the top four and bottom four values. This practice provides a mild resilience against everyday incompetence, where (as happens in some other systems) banks quote rates and prices 100 times the right amount or quotes for things that don’t exist.

That means you can’t just bung in a high number to move the average by 1/16th of your excess – because it won’t count. But contrary to what some people have said, it will still have an effect. Putting in a duff high number means that another high number now moves nearer the range, but that’s not very useful since ideally you would know both the average and the range of quotes so that you get included while still stretching it in the right direction.

You can guess where LIBOR is likely to be by looking at recent numbers on your Reuters screen. Yes, you can see what the other banks submitted yesterday and a quick bit of Excel will give you a rough range of where it is likely to be tomorrow. But if you need rates to move (or not move), knowing this won’t help you if your position is going very badly wrong and you need the right movement. That means you will need help from other traders before the 11am fixing the next day to give you a steer – and if there is no conflict with their position, they will notch up a favour by putting in a helpful value. Do not believe that traders are in competition.

In Red Blooded Risk, Aaron Brown, one of the smartest people on Wall Street, points out that in poker or markets you are playing with a market (or other players): ripping and running doesn’t make much money, so the favour will likely be returned.

But coordinating the quotes requires communication, and one reason Barclays is first in the queue for retribution is the incompetence demonstrated by their hapless rogues.

The first rule of LIBOR fixing
… is that you don’t talk about LIBOR fixing, not on a recorded phone, certainly. And as a Reg reader you won't be as naive as the Barclays 14, who actually used their firm’s internal email to communicate with each other during their scam. I have to admit that until the Commodity Futures Trading Commission released the evidence, I didn’t think anyone could be that stupid and still be able to figure out how to breathe.

Social media is usually banned at banks and there are now monitoring systems, so if your bank allows you to Twitter or Facebook, it’s probably a trap. Personal mobiles are banned from trading floors, but the nearby fag shacks seem tempting.

If you’re an FX trader, you may recall recently being at a Bloomberg seminar where I asked if you were on our candidate database. You said “no” and I said “good” and walked away, leaving you wondering why a headhunter wasn’t interested in you. You had two BlackBerrys holding different sets of conversations, clearly believing a free PAYG SIM gave you anonymity. Tip: It doesn’t. Yanks call them cellphones for good reason and it’s really not hard to spot that two SIMs have a high location correlation and that traders whom you claim not to know or have met are often in the same bar at the same time as you. If you’d been one of my people I’d have felt obliged to tell you that, but I can still put you in touch with a good lawyer.

Ironically, the mess caused by the FSA’s blunt refusal to accept the limitations of the technology (and basic physics) of phone recording, coupled with Vodafone accidentally allowing banks to access each other’s recordings, means that the odds are that your company-provided mobile is probably still not recorded. But don’t take that chance. Do at least try using codewords when communicating your plot. It won’t keep you out of jail but you’ll look less stupid, and if you pick a good set then there’s a chance of following Nick Leeson and writing it up as a book and film.

Exploiting averages
Once you’re inside the range, things get easier because throwing away half the data means that you’re not 1/16 of the numbers, but 1/8th – and since you’re working with other banks, you get a double payback. Three banks acting together are not only nearly half the data used, they also partly determine which numbers are seen as “reasonable” by moving the range itself, forcing honest numbers out of the sample.

The position you hold will end up owning you
Each of the players has a different set of exposures to rates going up or down, which means cooperation will not be continuous and will take place on a "balance of favours" basis, hence the stupidly indiscreet messages full of exclamation marks and promised bottles of Bollinger (as I write this, compliance officers are searching for that word in your company email). Barclays spent £100m going through 27 million documents hunting rogues: you feeling lucky, punk?

You do get one break because you don’t need to signal very much. Part of trading is spotting when market prices are wrong and profiting from correcting them. One trader described his team to me as “enforcers of the Efficient Market Hypothesis”, a bit of economics that says prices reflect all available information.

The difference between a rogue trader and a star is getting through the inevitable phases where your position goes south big time, and because the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, it’s no coincidence that the most celebrated rogues all were piling up positions to get through the dips.

That means you will need to “nudge” rates to the sort of values that will keep you going and employed and you will also need to store up goodwill with your colleagues. Favours have real monetary value, so calling out "Anyone have a problem with this rate?" as they did at BarCap marks you as a good person to have on the team.

Who lost, who won?
When companies borrow, the contracts often specify LIBOR+X, or in some cases LIBOR-X, the idea being that they pay “the going rate” which is some function (perhaps a moving average) of LIBOR. Some politicians complain that this has pushed up the rates that people pay for their mortgages, credit cards etc – which is not even false, it simply isn’t known or even easily knowable.

Banks each have different exposures to interest rates and it will be in their interest sometimes for rates to be lower or higher, but even that’s not quite accurate. There is no such person as Barclays or Deutsche bank who would “want” rates to go up or down – and it is certain that at some points that different desks at the same bank will want different rate movements. It is also quite likely that they don’t know what’s good for the firm as a whole.

However, Barclays has been caught in another scam, selling interest rate swaps to small companies who don’t really understand them as a form of insurance.

We all know that when a major claim is made, the first instinct of an insurer is to try to get out of it. Does it really shock you that Barclays contracts often use LIBOR? Obviously, I can’t say for a fact that the two are linked but the timing is a remarkable coincidence and gets enough time on TV news that we can assume the FSA will do something, maybe even using both of its competent staff.

The sad thing is that insuring your business against the movement of rates can be entirely rational and can stop your business going to the wall – so this scandal not only means some firms have been trashed but also that in future others won’t take on insurance they ought to have.

Barclays definitely lost once they started sending in honest rates that were so much higher than those fed in by other firms that there was a fear that this implied to the market they were going bust. Which leads to the “ambiguity” over whether the regulators asked Barclays to lower their numbers and whether embattled former CEO Bob Diamond could have even reliably "told" his henchman what to do. The idea that this call was not taped in a big bank is bizarre and of itself it might be a breach of the regulations.

Since Bob Diamond would never lie to me, we now know that Barclays honest numbers were nowhere near anyone else’s – with a clear implication that there may not be any banks that were not lying in their LIBOR submissions.

The fact that no honest person can accurately show who was hurt by the rate-fixing – and by how much – will not stop the banks being sued big time. And here I stretch my own credibility, not just yours, when I try to scale the damages. Not only do they utterly dwarf the few hundred million in fines so far, even a tiny percentage of the turnover in interest rate derivatives, swaps, traded loans et al dwarfs the market capitalisation of Barclays – and one set of assumptions made the amounts larger than the market cap of all banks put together. So the result of all this is that IT forensics firms as well as lawyers are going to do very well out of this in the next few years. ®
My ass cheeks clapped together louder than an excited Latino man with maracas... I had just laid the mightiest fudge dragon ever known to mankind in its very own water bath.

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