Author Topic: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss  (Read 2803 times)

Offline SMD

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'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« on: June 28, 2012, 09:16:42 AM »
The former chief executive of Barclays Martin Taylor has told the BBC that Barclays' actions amount to "systematic dishonesty".
Barclays was fined £290m ($450m) for trying to manipulate interest rates at which banks lend to each other.
Martin Taylor, who was chief executive, of the bank from 1994 to 1998 said that Barclays' deception looks like a deliberate strategy as it had been going on for years.
Other banks are also being probed.
The chief executive of Barclays, Bob Diamond, has come under pressure to resign.
The Liberal Democrat peer, Lord Oakeshott, said that if Mr Diamond had any shame, he would resign.
Former City minister Lord Myners told the BBC that the people at the top should take responsibility.
Barclays has said its actions "fell well short of standards".
In response, chief executive Bob Diamond and three other top executives at the bank are to give up their bonuses this year.
Investigators say that Barclays' traders lied to make the bank look more secure during the financial crisis and, sometimes - working with traders at other banks - to make a profit.

Mortgage deals
Tracey McDermott, director of enforcement at the FSA, which imposed fines alongside the US financial regulator, told the BBC: "We have a number of investigations that are ongoing.
"Obviously we need to look at each case on its own particular facts but the initial indications are that Barclays was not the only firm that was involved in this."
The US Department of Justice also said criminal investigations into "other financial institutions and individuals" was ongoing.
Other big names believed to be under investigation include Citigroup, JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank, HSBC and Royal Bank of Scotland.
Barclays' misconduct relates to the daily setting of the London Interbank Offered Rate (Libor) and the Euro Interbank Offered Rate (Euribor).
These are two of the most important interest rates in the global financial markets and directly influence the value of trillions of dollars of financial deals between banks and other institutions.
They can also affect lending rates to the public, for instance with some mortgage deals.
It is not yet clear whether Barclays staff actually succeeded in manipulating the interest rates to the bank's advantage and therefore whether it had any impact on borrowers.
While the FSA said only that the Barclays employees had attempted to do so, the US Department of Justice said that on some occasions they did affect the Libor and Euribor rates.
Former City minister Lord Myners told the BBC that the people at the top should take responsibility for "a complete cultural failure".
He said the behaviour of Barclays staff was the worst he had seen.
"This is the most corrosive failure of moral behaviour I have seen in a major UK financial institution in my career," he said.
"I think fines and public criticism will not stop these behaviours. These behaviours will not stop until the people perpetrating it or responsible for overseeing them face the prospect of criminal charges and the prospect of going to jail."
The former Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman, Lord Oakeshott said: "If Bob Diamond had a scintilla of shame he would resign."
"If Barclays' board had an inch of backbone between them they would sack him," he said.
Andrew Tyrie, chairman of the Commons treasury committee, said it would summon Mr Diamond to account for what had happened.
"Banks were clearly acting in concert. I fear it's not going to be the end of the story, that we are going to find that other banks have been involved," he said.

'Accepted culture'
The fine imposed on Barclays is part of an international investigation into the setting of interbank rates between 2005 and 2009.
Each day the British Bankers' Association (BBA) and the European Banking Association publish the the Libor and Euribor rates by taking an average of the estimated rates submitted to them by leading banks.
Between 2005 and 2008, the Barclays staff who submitted estimates of their own interbank lending rates were frequently lobbied by its derivatives traders to put in figures which would benefit their trading positions, in order to produce a profit for the bank.
And between 2007 and 2009, during the height of the banking crisis, the staff put in artificially low figures, to avoid the suspicion that Barclays was under financial stress and thus having to borrow at noticeably higher rates than its competitors.
The FSA pointed out that Barclays traders were quite open about their routine attempts to lobby their colleagues who submitted the bank's estimate of its borrowing costs to the BBA.
It was particularly concerned because it appeared to be "accepted culture" among some staff.
"Requests to Barclays' submitters were made verbally and a large amount of email and instant message evidence consisting of derivatives traders' requests also exists," the FSA said.
In one instance, a trader recounted a conversation in which he had "begged" the submitter to put in a lower Libor figure.
"I'm like, dude, you're killing us," he said. His manager replied, "just tell him to... put it low".
In turn, the staff submitting the data would respond to the traders' requests.
"For you…anything," said one. "Done… for you big boy," said another.
And: "I owe you big time... I'm opening a bottle of Bollinger."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18622264

I wonder what the excuse will be this time from the Tories.
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Offline -Q-

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 09:28:56 AM »
I wonder what the excuse will be this time from the Tories.

Probably that it was Labour's fault:

"The fine is part of an international investigation into the setting of interbank rates between 2005 and 2009."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18612279

If they have effectively defrauded their clients, I hope someone takes them to court.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 09:40:41 AM »
Although said jokingly at the time a few years ago, I'm beginning to wonder if my idea of "A few bankers severed heads mounted on sticks and used to line the wobbly bridge over the Thames" mightn't be such a bad idea after all to get these bastards in line.

I'm warming to it.

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Offline Trada

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 09:44:00 AM »
So if Interest rates were fixed using fraud I wonder if we can claim money back I guess it may turn into another PPI.

Another 20 banks also being looked into.

I bet someone is planning a test case.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 09:46:25 AM by Trada »
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Offline hide5seek

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 09:44:37 AM »
Anyone shocked?

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 09:50:11 AM »

Zimbabwe , apartheid , money laundering , tax avoidance ...................

A truly ethical and moral bank.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 09:51:34 AM »
Anyone shocked?

Sadly, no.

It's par for the course and quite probably, this is just the tip of the iceberg of dubious practices designed to ensure these characters always get their bonus at the expense of the rest of us.

I'm seriously considering moving my money into the co-op bank, I think I've had just about enough of Barclays dishonesty and arrogance now.

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Offline Jimmy Conway

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 10:10:13 AM »
If id applied for a loan at Barclays and said I earned £120k per year (when I don't) to get a £50k loan, I would be done for fraud. How can they get away with this without criminal proceedings. As Robert Peston said on the radio yesterday, this could of affected "trillions and trillions of pounds in transaction".

Offline SMD

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 10:31:39 AM »
Probably that it was Labour's fault:

"The fine is part of an international investigation into the setting of interbank rates between 2005 and 2009."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18612279

If they have effectively defrauded their clients, I hope someone takes them to court.

Ha. Though it was more the assertion that the banks are needed to drive the recovery, when their practices have been shown time and again to be the root cause of most of the economic woes we're seeing in the West.

What more needs to be done to show that the entire system is rotten?
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Offline neilem

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 11:16:56 AM »
Apparently the FSA knew about this in 2004, why has it taken over 7 years to "uncover" and shut the door on these practices? Fines should not be the punishment for these banks responsible, they should be criminally investigated!

Osborne is making a statement about this to parliament at 12.15pm.

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 06:27:32 PM »
from @faisalislam

@FPBenjamin @channel4news apparently according to Chancellor and FSA the 2000 Financial Services Markets Act meant libor abuse not criminal
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2012, 11:12:59 PM »
Apparently the FSA knew about this in 2004, why has it taken over 7 years to "uncover" and shut the door on these practices? Fines should not be the punishment for these banks responsible, they should be criminally investigated!

Osborne is making a statement about this to parliament at 12.15pm.

Because it was the FSA who were the most useless regulators around.  They were a token gesture and have only been trying to correct that recently since they were told they were being disbanded.

If id applied for a loan at Barclays and said I earned £120k per year (when I don't) to get a £50k loan, I would be done for fraud. How can they get away with this without criminal proceedings. As Robert Peston said on the radio yesterday, this could of affected "trillions and trillions of pounds in transaction".

They would require proof before providing the loan, the BBA/Reuters don't require proof when receiving submissions.

In terms of the scandal, it was either an industry wide issue or the changes they made to their submissions were relatively small.  I say this because the way the libor rates are generated is by a submissions from approx 16 finanical institutions.  From this the outliers are removed so as not to distort the results, this leaves around 85% of the results to make up the final libor figures.

So it was only very small changes (which are still questionable) or was industry wide, but then not all financial institutions would be in the same repricing position to benefit from the manipulation.

There is a long way to run in this financial mess the world is in at the moment.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 09:48:17 AM »
And there's more...
 
The Financial Services Authority says banks mis-sold specialist insurance known as interest rate swaps tied to thousands of small businesses.
...
The FSA said it believed the swaps had had a "severe impact on a large number of these businesses".
It did not say how much money would be necessary to compensate the businesses involved.
Sandy Chen, from Cenkos Securities, estimated that the total cost to the banks collectively would be between £1.1bn to £1.4bn, with most of that falling on Barclays.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18640101


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Offline rednewbie

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 12:38:15 PM »
Zimbabwe , apartheid , money laundering , tax avoidance ...................

A truly ethical and moral bank.

What does Zimbabwe have to do with anything?

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 12:48:39 PM »
What does Zimbabwe have to do with anything?

Loans provided by Barclays to the Mugabe governement and relating to land reforms .
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Offline evenflow

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 02:07:31 PM »
Leave them alone...it's more important that we throw a kid into jail for stealing a bottle of water in a riot..or hang on...stigmatise those claiming benefits as lazy and cheats..
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 02:30:31 PM »
Until fines are more than a cost of business and punishments are more than a slap on the wrists, it's kind of hard to see things changing. Rolling Stone has been doing some good stuff on what's been covered up over in the States by multinational banks. Little things like laundering billions of drug money, deliberately ripping off their own clients etc etc.
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 02:54:01 PM »
could there be more claims because of this?
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 03:51:00 PM »
We're being far too Americanised. I'm not interested whether some shitehawk law firms can make easy money by sueing them. They'll make ten times more than customers' small claims anyway. In the long run, the banks will only recuperate the money from us. I want the bastards sacked, jailed and forced to reform and become totally transparent and accountable. Pipe dream I know, but this corruption from the fucking top down is endemic, and epitomises Thatcher's Britain for me. Corporate greed, individual greed and all of them wanting to burn the social contract for a fistful of dollars, euros and sterling. The gang of c*nts.
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2012, 04:12:59 PM »
We're being far too Americanised. I'm not interested whether some shitehawk law firms can make easy money by sueing them. They'll make ten times more than customers' small claims anyway. In the long run, the banks will only recuperate the money from us. I want the bastards sacked, jailed and forced to reform and become totally transparent and accountable. Pipe dream I know, but this corruption from the fucking top down is endemic, and epitomises Thatcher's Britain for me. Corporate greed, individual greed and all of them wanting to burn the social contract for a fistful of dollars, euros and sterling. The gang of c*nts.

If anything more like this comes out then I honestly can't see any other outcome than complete nationalisation of retail banking.  RBS, if they are heavily exposed to the libor and swap issues will be fully taxpayer owned within 6 months.

All in all, all this is doing is delaying when the banks balance sheets will be in a position to correctly support and service the economy.  These latest two will push it back a couple of years atleast (if not 5 or more)
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2012, 05:05:41 PM »
If anything more like this comes out then I honestly can't see any other outcome than complete nationalisation of retail banking.  RBS, if they are heavily exposed to the libor and swap issues will be fully taxpayer owned within 6 months.


I would dearly wish for this too happen - presumably as soon as they can think of an acceptable alternative word for 'nationalisation'. Hopefully the Co-op bank is unsullied by all of this malarkey I don't want to have to change banks again.
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2012, 05:28:05 PM »
I would dearly wish for this too happen - presumably as soon as they can think of an acceptable alternative word for 'nationalisation'. Hopefully the Co-op bank is unsullied by all of this malarkey I don't want to have to change banks again.

You mean the co-op bank that doesn't have the proper governance structure or risk management either? Yeah good luck with that.
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Offline JonnyDubb

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2012, 05:32:25 PM »
But if you change their practices all our talented bankers will fuck off to Switzerland or the far East. Then we'll be fucked (?)

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2012, 05:47:36 PM »
You mean the co-op bank that doesn't have the proper governance structure or risk management either? Yeah good luck with that.
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« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 06:01:20 PM by Dr. Beaker »
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Offline neilem

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2012, 06:23:48 PM »
But if you change their practices all our talented bankers will fuck off to Switzerland or the far East. Then we'll be fucked (?)
What makes you think that?

I know you're probably being sarcastic, but for me I've never heard what exactly they do and why it's so necessary? or why they're on top wages while there is an ongoing financial crisis, and somehow they aren't to blame for it? This myth about them running off is something I don't understand...

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2012, 07:19:45 PM »
What makes you think that?

I know you're probably being sarcastic, but for me I've never heard what exactly they do and why it's so necessary? or why they're on top wages while there is an ongoing financial crisis, and somehow they aren't to blame for it? This myth about them running off is something I don't understand...

I wish they'd all fucked off years ago so our banks were run by blokes who weren't clever enough to make a complete bollocks of everything.
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2012, 09:32:18 PM »
You mean the co-op bank that doesn't have the proper governance structure or risk management either? Yeah good luck with that.

So glad I've seen your post, I've actually just been on their website to see about switching accounts.

We're being far too Americanised. I'm not interested whether some shitehawk law firms can make easy money by sueing them. They'll make ten times more than customers' small claims anyway. In the long run, the banks will only recuperate the money from us. I want the bastards sacked, jailed and forced to reform and become totally transparent and accountable. Pipe dream I know, but this corruption from the fucking top down is endemic, and epitomises Thatcher's Britain for me. Corporate greed, individual greed and all of them wanting to burn the social contract for a fistful of dollars, euros and sterling. The gang of c*nts.

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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2012, 10:12:11 PM »
So glad I've seen your post, I've actually just been on their website to see about switching accounts.

Well said Macca!

The cop-op have just spent the last year trying to convince the FSA/BoE etc that they are able to take on Project Verde from Lloyds.  It's been very close but they've only just managed to do it by promising they'll have it all in place.  The thing about the co-op is that a few years ago they took over the Brittania Building Society that had much of the governance etc needed to run a financial institution but the co-op got rid of them all because they thought they knew best.  It's come back to bite them on the arse now.

They are also buying a section of lloyds that lloyds said in the initial information that the sale would not have a material impact on it's annual profit figures when it was taken out of the numbers.
So all say thanks to the Shanks

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2012, 11:30:57 PM »
The cop-op have just spent the last year trying to convince the FSA/BoE etc that they are able to take on Project Verde from Lloyds.  It's been very close but they've only just managed to do it by promising they'll have it all in place.  The thing about the co-op is that a few years ago they took over the Brittania Building Society that had much of the governance etc needed to run a financial institution but the co-op got rid of them all because they thought they knew best.  It's come back to bite them on the arse now.

They are also buying a section of lloyds that lloyds said in the initial information that the sale would not have a material impact on it's annual profit figures when it was taken out of the numbers.

So then (message received by the way) what's the name of that proper bank that's trying to start up. Is that a starter? Or are there any existing banks that come out of this with any honour? - jesus, that last one even sounded stupid to me and I'm pretty pissed.
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2012, 11:52:44 PM »
We're being far too Americanised. I'm not interested whether some shitehawk law firms can make easy money by sueing them. They'll make ten times more than customers' small claims anyway. In the long run, the banks will only recuperate the money from us. I want the bastards sacked, jailed and forced to reform and become totally transparent and accountable. Pipe dream I know, but this corruption from the fucking top down is endemic, and epitomises Thatcher's Britain for me. Corporate greed, individual greed and all of them wanting to burn the social contract for a fistful of dollars, euros and sterling. The gang of c*nts.

Yep, it'll never change, and this latest is prob still near the top of the iceberg.  Plenty of shit left on this mess to come.

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2012, 02:06:57 AM »
Amazing that a student who stole a case of water worth £3.50 during the London riots gets 6 months in prison yet bankers who steal billions from mortgage holders and the taxpayer get a fine that going to be sanctioned against their mum and dad shareholders.

If an individual steals money from a customer they usually go to prison. If a company does the same they get a slap on the wrist.
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Offline stevedo

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #31 on: July 1, 2012, 12:21:10 PM »
Fight back already underway.
.     A respected City figure who has sat on the boards of numerous FTSE 100 companies said the Government was going too far in its response to the Barclays fine.

“The way in which Cameron is wading is absolutely outrageous,” he said.

“It’s all for sound bites. He’s playing to the gallery, but to the detriment of investors in banks and the rest of the London market.”

Meanwhile, Sir Roger Carr, the president of the CBI, admitted that the manipulation of Libor was “deplorable” but added that: “We should be mindful however of the importance of banking to the UK economy and that throwing the baby out with bathwater is in no one’s interest.”


From The Telegraph.



Offline Jagged Princess

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #32 on: July 1, 2012, 01:00:22 PM »
A respected ‘City Figure’ are there any left?

If Cameron has waded in, then it’ll be the first time I’ll support him; enough is enough against the greed, dirty tricks and corruption within banking. 

What Cameron can do though is another matter as I don’t foresee any prosecutions for any of those involved.   That in itself seems so unjust when you consider that a rioter was jailed for 6 months for stealing a £3.50 bottle of water.   

What is utterly laughable is that of the £290M fine imposed on Barclays, £230M was imposed by US authorities with the FSA receiving the other £60M; given that the FSA is funded by the financial industry, of which Barclay’s is a contributor, what they will pay has probably covered their contribution. 
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #33 on: July 1, 2012, 02:04:00 PM »
A respected ‘City Figure’ are there any left?

If Cameron has waded in, then it’ll be the first time I’ll support him; enough is enough against the greed, dirty tricks and corruption within banking. 

What Cameron can do though is another matter as I don’t foresee any prosecutions for any of those involved.   That in itself seems so unjust when you consider that a rioter was jailed for 6 months for stealing a £3.50 bottle of water.   

What is utterly laughable is that of the £290M fine imposed on Barclays, £230M was imposed by US authorities with the FSA receiving the other £60M; given that the FSA is funded by the financial industry, of which Barclay’s is a contributor, what they will pay has probably covered their contribution. 


The problem is whether it was actually illegal what went on.  I think there was a report out there in the last few days that said that it wasn't actually illegal to fraudulently fix the libor rates, but was a big problem with the authorities.

The whole way banking works needs to be reorganised but all that will mean is an extension of the financial situation the world is in at the moment as it will cost to fix the system which means lending will not get back up to the sort of levels to sustain the economies of the world.
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Offline Jagged Princess

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #34 on: July 1, 2012, 02:53:51 PM »
The problem is whether it was actually illegal what went on.  I think there was a report out there in the last few days that said that it wasn't actually illegal to fraudulently fix the libor rates, but was a big problem with the authorities.

The whole way banking works needs to be reorganised but all that will mean is an extension of the financial situation the world is in at the moment as it will cost to fix the system which means lending will not get back up to the sort of levels to sustain the economies of the world.

So is it a case of carry on what you’re doing then until the recession is over?
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #35 on: July 1, 2012, 03:07:38 PM »
The problem is whether it was actually illegal what went on.  I think there was a report out there in the last few days that said that it wasn't actually illegal to fraudulently fix the libor rates, but was a big problem with the authorities.

This what I don't understand about this situation.  Fraud is illegal.  If what they were doing was fraud, then surely it was illegal?
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #36 on: July 1, 2012, 03:13:30 PM »
This what I don't understand about this situation.  Fraud is illegal.  If what they were doing was fraud, then surely it was illegal?
Youd think, but seems banks can play to different rules.

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #37 on: July 1, 2012, 03:14:02 PM »
This is one time we need to take the politics out of it these chancers in Barclays and maybe elsewhere are criminals committing a gigantic fraud affecting millions probably, so lets not go down the political party blame game, it just fogs up the true picture with this!
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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #38 on: July 1, 2012, 04:49:54 PM »
Well apparently they lied to the regulators, if that's not a crime why would anyone bother telling them the truth.
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: 'Systematic dishonesty' at Barclays, says former boss
« Reply #39 on: July 1, 2012, 05:32:16 PM »
This what I don't understand about this situation.  Fraud is illegal.  If what they were doing was fraud, then surely it was illegal?

Yes but it depends on the legislation that is/was in place for the fixing of the libor rates.  This is what the SFO will be looking into and is why there is likely to be a change to the legislation as a result of this.
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