Author Topic: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens  (Read 10301 times)

Offline Degs

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Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« on: June 23, 2012, 10:54:14 PM »
"Maslov spoke of football being like an aeroplane, becoming increasingly streamlined , but perhaps the gradual adoption of a front-line of one is not quite the end of evolution. Carlos Alberto Parriera, who led Brazil to victory in the 1994 World Cup and was in charge of them again in 2006, after all, has spoken of the possibilities of a 4-6-0. 'You'd have four defenders at the back although even they'd be allowed to run forward,' Andy Roxburgh, the former UEFA technical director, explained. 'The six players in midfield, all of whom could rotate, attack and defend.  But you'd need to have six Decos in midfield - he doesn't just attack, he runs, tackles covers all over the pitch.  You find him playing at right-back sometimes'"

Inverting the Pyramid, Jonathan Wilson, page 351.

Since I read that I've been waiting. I've waited for a team that can fulfill the prophecy.  Pretenders have tried, Roma under Spaletti came close, Craig Levein's Scotland had the same numbers but not the philosophy attached, even Moyes had arguably his best spell as Everton manager when injury forced him to play without a recognised striker (Marouane Fellaini is not Deco though). Finally Vicente Del Bosque has emerged as the man with the cojones large enough to release his six Decos in competitive football.

Off the ball it's a relentless wolf pack, defending as a unit and never leaving another exposed, it's energetic and short-lived and it's done in an area of the field where there's no danger should it go wrong.
On the ball it's stylish in it's simplicity, it's short, it's calm, and efficient and most of all after all this time waiting for it I have to admit it's one thing above all else: boring.

I hate to say it, on 68 minutes against France I saw backheels, "carousel" movement, an absolute exploitation of a traditional "defending in lines" defence, chip over the top of the full-back, it was perfection and yet I sat there bored.  I was bored because there was an absence of danger.  When you find out the magician has a rubber guillotine the interest in his trick is gone.  Like others I became bored with Spain when I realised they were in no danger, as Talking Heads said:

"When this party's over, it will start again
It will not be any different, it will be exactly the same
Heaven, heaven is a place, a place where nothing, nothing ever happens
"

One emotion however surpasses the boredom that perfection brings: envy.  Watching Spain there is a constant niggling voice that erodes the soul: "I wish it was us".  Seeing Xabi Alonso own a field of vert, resplendent in red, is as heartbreakingly nostalgic as football has ever made me feel and yet, and yet, hope springs eternal.

If you can't be the best you can at least aspire, Brendan Rodgers brought his own brand of Taffy-Taka to Swansea and with the exception of Manchester City and their myriad of stars no team passed the ball more.  Mid-way through the season Leon Briton had better passing statistics than Xavi and Rodgers was actively encouraging a less than traditional approach to football, the hoof was resigned to the history books.

I'm itching to get back into the Kop, I haven't been this excited in a while, I'm excited because I long to be bored.  I want Rodgers to forge a dynasty and culminate in a result being all but certain before a ball is kicked. 

Whereas once we had people complaining that Rafa Benitez was too defensive, a team booed off after going top of the league, we long for the days when nothing but a win was acceptable.

I believe in Brendan Rodgers, I want him to continue evolving his style and I hope everybody is prepared to wait and support through the genuine period of "transition" we have coming up.  I'm excited, excited that we have a man with a plan and a vision.  When Sky starts telling you that Liverpool are boring remember when you were bored by Spain and how you envied their results, I will.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 10:59:11 PM by Degs »

Offline SMD

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 11:09:48 PM »
I said this to Juan Loco, whatever you want to say about Spain's style it suits them and it's very skilful. It's easy to call it boring but honestly I think it's fascinating and I'm fully aware that this will unlikely be repeated in my lifetime. We won't see a generation like this again so I'm just enjoying it.

As you said, France posed no danger so the element of excitement was lost - why should Spain care? They played their game effectively, they conserved energy and aside from a few dodgy friendly performances and a shocker against the United States in the Confederations Cup, it's served them well.

When Plan A is so good, it doesn't really need a Plan B or C except for vanity. I would be delighted if we kept the ball for vast periods of each game and got better results than every other team. It's a system that translates to any stage at the top level and breeds confidence. It's easy as a fan or neutral to demand a shot on goal but honestly it makes more sense to continue probing and attempting to carve a better chance.
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Offline bootroom boy

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 11:12:33 PM »
Looking forward to the Rodgers' style of football. It's nothing we've not seen before and it was coming back under Kenny.
However, lets get behind our manager right from the start. City, United, Arsenal- 9 points from our first three home games, no problem.
Would have feared Wigan, Swansea, Norwich more.
 

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2012, 11:13:04 PM »
I remember us being called the 'red machine' along with 'boring', 'stifling', 'methodical' even when we won the European Cup in 77. You will never placate the Southern based press who had to come kicking and screaming to the table to praise us even when in our pomp with no adversaries of note. As Shanks said and to paraphrase, 'we beat everyone into submission.'

Today is a different game. It's about spin. Does it matter what our fan base and in particular our match goers think? Rather we appeal to the global masses. Fuck that. If we do we're dead for Barca and Madrid are well ahead of us in that market. Better we revert to what it is to be Liverpool FC. The Holy Trinity. If we aspire to mix and match, with some alien brand label we become Primark instead of what we were...Saville Row. Just sayin'
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Offline TSC

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2012, 11:20:42 PM »
Can always remember back in the 80's a schoolmate said to me after one of our live games (think it was a game v Newcastle and keegan where we won 4-0) that Liverpool were like robots.  No matter where any player in red 'passed' the ball, another player in red was there to receive it.  We just never ever gave the ball away generally.

It may be boring to the neutral watching, but I'm betting none of those Spanish supporters are bored after tonight.

Offline K-Lo

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2012, 11:22:43 PM »
Thanks... really enjoyed reading.  Am excited too to see how things develop over next few seasons with Rodgers.  What excites me most are his comments about wanting the ball.  I really believe we have players in our squad who are immensely talented but who have underperformed and who can thrive under the new manager.  Henderson is the most obvious example.  It seemed that Kenny had a plan for Henderson (right of midfield) and it just didn't work (i was at Anfield for the home game against Swansea last November and Henderson was on the right and had a nightmare - IIRC he was taken off at halftime) but Henderson is a really talented footballer who will eventually be a star for us.

If we can be even half as boring at Anfield next season as Spain were tonight then i will be happy...  :)

Offline The Grinch

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2012, 11:29:11 PM »
All Spain need is a true rival, they are playing so far within themselves it's untrue. They remind me of Liverpool under Paisley you are so far ahead of the completion that you become pragmatic. Instead of looking for ways that you could possibly win something you look for ways that you could possibly lose and look to eliminate those possibilities.

Spain for me are playing in 2nd or 3rd gear, opponents are looking for them to blow up instead of looking to win it themselves. Until that changes we will never see the full potential of this Spain side.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline harrytrow

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2012, 11:31:08 PM »
I don't want to be bored while waiting for the next manager who can end the Span/Barca style of football and they will.
God help us if it's a Chelsea or Inter method but someone will find the antidote for it and then what?

I alao remember reading a book when in the stands watching a Liverpool team trying to unlock a defensive team
Looking up occasionally when there was a murmur
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 11:33:02 PM by harrytrow »
How come pointed questions recieve blunt answers

Offline Z e u s

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2012, 11:31:56 PM »
When Plan A is so good, it doesn't really need a Plan B or C except for vanity.

Barca could have done with a plan b or c in the Champs League this season.

I want to see us win.  I got just as much pleasure under Houiller winning the treble not playing very attractive football, as I did beating Real Madrid 4-0 with Benitez or winning the league under Dalgish with Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge etc.  Winning is what matters.

As a neutral I do find Spain quite boring to watch, especially when they don't play with a striker as I don't think they have that cutting egde, which if they did have (and have had in past when they play a striker like Villa or Torres in 08) they'd not only be dominate in possession, they'd be clinical - like Barca are with Messi.

I am really excited to see how Rodgers goes about his business with us.  Clearly we are going to see passing to feet, but we sawy that under Dalglish last season, it won't be alien to the players.  What I am really excited to see is will we be rigid in that approach or will we mix up our game and use the odd long ball to Carroll, which can be equally effective as playing to feet.  Also will we be trying to play in the oppositions half, like Barca do or will we primarily be having more possession in our own half (like Swansea did last season) and wait patiently for opening before exploiting those gaps higher up the field.

Everyone wants to see us control games and even dominate possession, but that will mean nothing if we don't win.  Winning ugly is better than losing with attractive football - which is pretty much what we did last seaosn under Dalglish in a lot of games.

No one gets bored of winning.  If you do it with dominance and attractive football, then all the better.  But we have cutting edge in our attack, unlike Spain tonight with Suarez and Barca have that with Messi, which doesn't make Barca boring to watch for the neutral.

If we had the Spanish National XI that we saw tonight as our LFC side, I would find them frustrating because we wouldlack that cutting edge which is needed to be clinical and win games convincingly which Spain deserve to do more often given their dominance.

Offline Melbred

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2012, 11:39:58 PM »

If we had the Spanish National XI that we saw tonight as our LFC side, I would find them frustrating because we wouldlack that cutting edge which is needed to be clinical and win games convincingly which Spain deserve to do more often given their dominance.

But they still won, and have won the majority of their games despite their "lack of cutting edge". Wasn't that your point?

Offline Z e u s

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2012, 11:45:10 PM »
But they still won, and have won the majority of their games despite their "lack of cutting edge". Wasn't that your point?

Yes it is my point.

But I am not a Spain fan, I am a neutral and find it boring to watch.  If I was Spanish fan I wouldn't have an issue with it as long as they won.

But I can't see us being boring to watch with players like Gerrard or Suarez at the club. 

Offline TSC

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2012, 11:46:21 PM »
All Spain need is a true rival, they are playing so far within themselves it's untrue. They remind me of Liverpool under Paisley you are so far ahead of the completion that you become pragmatic. Instead of looking for ways that you could possibly win something you look for ways that you could possibly lose and look to eliminate those possibilities.

Spain for me are playing in 2nd or 3rd gear, opponents are looking for them to blow up instead of looking to win it themselves. Until that changes we will never see the full potential of this Spain side.

Yep totally agree here.  And similar to LFC in the 80's such is their rep no-one can really assess accurately just how good or not so good they are simply because teams are afraid of em before kick off. 

However in order to get to this stage a team has to deliver and win and play great.  Which obviously Spain have done in recent years.  That would be the part to look forward to if somehow we ever got back on top again.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2012, 11:50:44 PM »
All Spain need is a true rival, they are playing so far within themselves it's untrue. They remind me of Liverpool under Paisley you are so far ahead of the completion that you become pragmatic. Instead of looking for ways that you could possibly win something you look for ways that you could possibly lose and look to eliminate those possibilities.

Spain for me are playing in 2nd or 3rd gear, opponents are looking for them to blow up instead of looking to win it themselves. Until that changes we will never see the full potential of this Spain side.

Liverpool under Benitez were ironically one of the teams best suited to countering teams like the current Spain and Barcelona. Ironically because a number of Spanish players learnt their stuff playing in that team and playing against that team. Brains allied to sheer elemental force that could sweep everything away.
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2012, 11:53:49 PM »


I know the OP deserves much better Degs, but that's how I feel about watching the Spanish play football.

They're the best international team I've ever seen at this point. They are probably on the verge of the best ever and are offering up a style as unique as the Mighty Magyars or the Total Football of the Dutch. But... Meh.

I hope Rodgers can replicate similar because I want us to be pragmatic about the best way to win, and if this is the best way then let's fucking sort it out. I don't care if Spain win or lose though, so watching Death by a Thousand Passes doesn't really do anything for me. I was shit at geometry, so I'm not going to appreciate it at a football match.
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Offline The Grinch

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2012, 12:13:32 AM »
Liverpool under Benitez were ironically one of the teams best suited to countering teams like the current Spain and Barcelona. Ironically because a number of Spanish players learnt their stuff playing in that team and playing against that team. Brains allied to sheer elemental force that could sweep everything away.

It came full circle Benitez, went back to college went to Italy and tried to take on board the Italian mentality, went to United and took on board the English mentality and then formed the Benitez mentality. The problem with taking a borrowed mentality and then tweaking it is that there is no originality. There is no twist or mystery ingredient, if you take the rest of everyone else's mentality and adapt it as your own  then all you are creating is a temporary fix.

All you are creating is a base camp for fellow minded coaches, all you are doing is creating a starting point for them. Inevitably if you follow that path then someone will usurp you. That for me is the biggest problem with Rodgers.

There isn't s right way there is only a way that puts you ahead for a certain time, then inevitably people will copy your methods add a twist and usurp you. It will be interesting to see who is the biggest innovator Rodgers or Benitez.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline harrytrow

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2012, 12:21:05 AM »
It came full circle Benitez, went back to college went to Italy and tried to take on board the Italian mentality, went to United and took on board the English mentality and then formed the Benitez mentality. The problem with taking a borrowed mentality and then tweaking it is that there is no originality. There is no twist or mystery ingredient, if you take the rest of everyone else's mentality and adapt it as your own  then all you are creating is a temporary fix.

All you are creating is a base camp for fellow minded coaches, all you are doing is creating a starting point for them. Inevitably if you follow that path then someone will usurp you. That for me is the biggest problem with Rodgers.

There isn't s right way there is only a way that puts you ahead for a certain time, then inevitably people will copy your methods add a twist and usurp you. It will be interesting to see who is the biggest innovator Rodgers or Benitez.
Absolutely or we would still be playing with five forwards and wing halves.
Football is an evolutionary process and for every system  there is a solution to combatting it.
What infuriates me is that this wonderful way they, Spain and Barca play it is primarily a defensive system.
I watched the second half for a while to realise they never have more than one player ahead of the ball.
It shouldn't take long for someone to come up with system that will negate that.
My dread is that it will be Hodgson
How come pointed questions recieve blunt answers

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2012, 12:24:43 AM »
I also remember the first 60 minutes against Chelsea where we tried to Barca our way past Chelsea, not long after Barca had failed to do the same thing over three hours (albeit we were trying with Players of a lesser standard). How exciting was that last half hour when Plan B turned out to be what should have been plan A and was further underlined on the tuesday.
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Offline TSC

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2012, 12:25:12 AM »

There isn't s right way there is only a way that puts you ahead for a certain time, then inevitably people will copy your methods add a twist and usurp you. It will be interesting to see who is the biggest innovator Rodgers or Benitez.

Have to admit I'm torn re Rodgers.  Simply because I didn't want Dalglish gone - wanted another season for him at least and I'm convinced he's have turned things around in the league.  But then once it became apparent when Kenny had gone that the choice was between Rodgers and Martinez I leaned to Rodgers.  A bit of bias as well on my part as I'm from N.Ire originally.

However notwithstanding all that Swansea were the best away team I watched at Anfield last season, in terms of actually bossing the ball if not winning the match.  And therein lies hope I suppose.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2012, 12:30:41 AM »
It came full circle Benitez, went back to college went to Italy and tried to take on board the Italian mentality, went to United and took on board the English mentality and then formed the Benitez mentality. The problem with taking a borrowed mentality and then tweaking it is that there is no originality. There is no twist or mystery ingredient, if you take the rest of everyone else's mentality and adapt it as your own  then all you are creating is a temporary fix.

All you are creating is a base camp for fellow minded coaches, all you are doing is creating a starting point for them. Inevitably if you follow that path then someone will usurp you. That for me is the biggest problem with Rodgers.

There isn't s right way there is only a way that puts you ahead for a certain time, then inevitably people will copy your methods add a twist and usurp you. It will be interesting to see who is the biggest innovator Rodgers or Benitez.

The way I see it, at its most simplistic, there are 2 gears you can play in, quick and slow. To play slow effectively, you need patience to stick with it even when things aren't opening up (what Shankly refers to as that style which the crowds find hard to accept), and the quickness of mind to recognise when it's time to change the speed. To play quick effectively, you need the sheer athleticism to be able to carry through a plan without running out of steam. Both assume technique to be there. Perfection would be when both paradigms are combined, with neat football being played by towering athletes. No team has yet found 11 players of the necessary level in both paradigms, although the introduction of rotation has gone some way towards it. There is still a lot of leeway for coaches to look to minimise their deficiencies in one while maximising their capabilities in the other, whilst doing the opposite to the other team. The tragedy is the English mentality of utterly rejecting the first gear. That's tragedy in the classical sense, as in an underlying flaw that leads to the story turning out exactly as you'd expect it to, but with the participants being completely oblivious to that flaw they have.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline andywilko

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2012, 12:43:10 AM »
I read a lot, don't post a lot.  There's not many OP's get me tapping with nothing to add but I agree with everything you say and salute the eloquence with which you said it.
And with such simplicity,
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Offline Des Equilibrante

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2012, 01:20:36 AM »
"Maslov spoke of football being like an aeroplane, becoming increasingly streamlined , but perhaps the gradual adoption of a front-line of one is not quite the end of evolution. Carlos Alberto Parriera, who led Brazil to victory in the 1994 World Cup and was in charge of them again in 2006, after all, has spoken of the possibilities of a 4-6-0. 'You'd have four defenders at the back although even they'd be allowed to run forward,' Andy Roxburgh, the former UEFA technical director, explained. 'The six players in midfield, all of whom could rotate, attack and defend.  But you'd need to have six Decos in midfield - he doesn't just attack, he runs, tackles covers all over the pitch.  You find him playing at right-back sometimes'"

Inverting the Pyramid, Jonathan Wilson, page 351.

Since I read that I've been waiting. I've waited for a team that can fulfill the prophecy.  Pretenders have tried, Roma under Spaletti came close, Craig Levein's Scotland had the same numbers but not the philosophy attached, even Moyes had arguably his best spell as Everton manager when injury forced him to play without a recognised striker (Marouane Fellaini is not Deco though). Finally Vicente Del Bosque has emerged as the man with the cojones large enough to release his six Decos in competitive football.

Off the ball it's a relentless wolf pack, defending as a unit and never leaving another exposed, it's energetic and short-lived and it's done in an area of the field where there's no danger should it go wrong.
On the ball it's stylish in it's simplicity, it's short, it's calm, and efficient and most of all after all this time waiting for it I have to admit it's one thing above all else: boring.
Hate to be a devils advocate, but that United team of 2007-2008 seemed very much 4-6-0, with Tevez and Rooney up front - that's a phenomenal amount of energy in a front pair and they tracked and pressed magnificently - they were all over the pitch. And supported by Ronaldo on the right who was pretty much playing striker from right midfield as he was able to run so much harder, faster and from deeper than anyone else. The team seemed to pivot from Carrick/Scholes in the centre just in front of their defence and Giggs on the left. Neville just sat in defence because Ronaldo would never cover, and Evra was playing as Giggs' blindside option.

As much as I hate to admit it, that was a pretty impressive side, not a Spanish 4-6-0, but definitely something different.
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Offline shook

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2012, 01:29:58 AM »
Great post.

To add my two cents - watching Spain play is like watching an intellectual film or reading a philosophical book.  When what we really want to see is a tour de force, since this is football.


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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2012, 07:20:34 AM »
I heard them moaning on the telly like this last night. Adrian Chiles not only looks like Benny Hill, he seems to want football to be played with everyone dashing around in high-heels, fishnets and garters, with that duh-duh-duh music blasting over the tannoy. Other than that, he finds it boring. And, fair play to him, that would be an innovation, but I prefer to watch Spain and Barcelona.

True, it can become a bit repetitive and frustrating, especially when my life long Englishness wants someone to launch it, have a fuckin dig and get stuck in. But when I ignore that side of me, I realise it's like watching Muhamad Ali in his prime, a phenomenon, that once it's gone will probably never be seen again. So, I'm just going to enjoy it while I can and miss it when it's gone.

Let's face, it's not been around for very long. It won't be forever. And Mike Basset is already back tonight for the Adrian Chiles who prefer a bit of duff and a pint of bitter, to a bit of tapas an a nice Red. But I have a feeling, in a few years time, the fat moon faced fucker will be telling every poor bastard he corners... Spain, oh yeah, outside of the Baggies circa 1972, we're the greatest team I ever seen. That boy Messi, what a player he was, could crack em in from the length of the park.

Not a dig at you Degs, just a tip to everyone... you get to see this team for a couple of hours every blue moon. Like the great Brazilian and Argentinian sides, they won't be around forever. Enjoy it while it's here. It really is a phenomenon and a joy to watch if you forget about a bit of good olde English pace and power.
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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2012, 07:23:27 AM »
PS... I only popped in because I thought David Byrne had joined RAWK.
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Offline isildurrr

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2012, 08:31:16 AM »
Barca could have done with a plan b or c in the Champs League this



If we had the Spanish National XI that we saw tonight as our LFC side, I would find them frustrating because we wouldlack that cutting edge which is needed to be clinical and win games convincingly which Spain deserve to do more often given their dominance.

Don't buy that plan b bullshit.plan a needs to be refined continuously till it's unstoppable.for most of the tie between barca and Chelsea Chelsea were on the ropes.busquets missed an open goal and messi missed a penalty.play that tie 10 times and barca will win it 9 times.why would you want plan b?

For me the spaniards are incredibly clinical.the result is never in any doubt.

Offline royhendo

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2012, 08:32:56 AM »
Superb Degs. :)

During the first half I turned to my son, sat on my knee in his jammies, and said "I hope there's a team as good as this for you to watch when you're a big boy". I didn't (and don't) find it remotely boring. It's as comprehensive an expression of control as you can see on a football pitch (at least in my memory - I can't remember anyone topping it against quality opposition) and while I don't personally feel (independent of the centre forward/reference point debate) any of their Decos give the opposing centre halves enough to worry about, and while Arbeloa is limited in comparison with Alba, it was a groovy groovy treat. You saw what happened when France's concentration slipped momentarily - Fabregas was instantly in one on one with Loris (who was excellent throughout I thought) and they almost stretched their lead.

It's not far off the ideal expression of the game for me, but the debate hints at where the tweaks would be. Their squad supports them playing that way too - I just feel Del Bosque wanted to control the bajaysus out of the French from start to finish.
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Offline royhendo

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2012, 08:36:21 AM »
Hate to be a devils advocate...

The list doesn't have to be comprehensive mate - Spalletti is one that's often cited with our very own Aquilani intrumental to its play, for example.
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Juanma Lillo: "Yes, the garnish has eaten the steak."

Offline geoffstrong

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2012, 09:16:47 AM »
I find watching the Spanish team to be amusing in their ability to pass around opposition players as if the other team were subbuteo men! There is almost an element of now you see it there it's gone again to it!
I also find the football played by Spain to be full of artistry and expression I discount the robotic notion because they have a set pattern but they weave other intricate patterns within it like a majestic tapestry!
To do this you need intelligent players not robotic ones.
How do you stop them if anyone can, well let's discount the Barca Chelsea comparison to start with, Chelsea did not find the magic antidote to this style simply over two legs the Barca players. could not hit a barn door with a banjo as the saying goes.
For me any elements of presumed boredom are created when as with France first half the opposition sits back and allows them to play their game and from the start France seemed to be in awe and defeated before the kick off with the notable exception of Ribery!
For me the only way to perhaps beat them is to go at them a few crunching tackles, pressurise them on the ball, do not allow them to set the tempo for the game, they may still take you apart but at least you lose bravely rather than meekly. I think the Germans are equipped to beat them this way.
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Offline Red number seven

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2012, 09:30:34 AM »
It's not far off the ideal expression of the game for me, but the debate hints at where the tweaks would be. Their squad supports them playing that way too - I just feel Del Bosque wanted to control the bajaysus out of the French from start to finish.
Is it the natural extension of 4-2-3-1 and  ideal expression of totaalvoetbal - or quixotic, self-indulgent theorising to play without a striker when the object is to score? Was a similar question asked of the "wingless wonders" in 66, or Herrera, Michels or any other controversial innovator?

One could argue that Spain should and could be winning by more, more easily, more comfortably, given how much better they are. I don't find it boring either, I find it fascinating, but I'm not 100% convinced I would like to see LFC play with 6 midifelders and no strikers - unless of course one of them is Messi, because when one of your 6 "midfielders" is a better goalscorer than any striker on the planet it immediately makes the system - any system - all ok.

I could see a determined Portugal beat Spain, just because of the sheer force of nature that Ronaldo can be. I do hope they don't - Spain should be playing Germany in the final and a very positive Loew using more traditional formations but supreme altheticism, team ethic and sheer confidence vs this 4-6-0 formation will be fascinating for the little manager in all of us.

One thing is for sure - for me there are certain ever presents in great sides regardless of theoretical formation and tactic - togetherness and good team (or even squad) ethic and work rate, high levels of technique, respect for possession, aggressive closure of space out of possession, a focus on and a wide understanding of a game plan throughout the squad, and the ability to find a way to score a goal. Both Spain and Germany have all of the above as far as I can see. I think Liverpool too often lacked the last 3 last season.
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline harrytrow

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2012, 09:33:03 AM »
One half of me totally agrees with Roy Leo et al. Having watched it over the years and being mesmerised by the silky passing the constant movement etc. Wondered at the burst of pace of Messi, the eye catching pass of Iniesta at the end of 30 or 40 passes and it's wonderful to watch.
The other half of me is, well bored is probably the wrong word to use, I would more likely say it's like a slow wank when you dribble it out when ejaculating. Afterwards you lie back and want to give a good tug but theres nowt left and all thats left is the longing for a good sweaty humping.
I watched it last night and I could have gone the loo a dozen times and feel I hadn't missed a thing if the score was the same as when I went. Like watching the traffic going round the Arc de Triomph and waiting to see an accident to get the buzz. There will be one, it's inevitable but theres no tension in the waiting. Just an inevitability of it.
Now that may be wonderful for a while but life is about tensions and as soon as another counter system to it, that creates that tension arises, the better for me.
Thats not Spains fault and not Barcelonas, it's the fact that no one is challenging or countering it.
My only dread is that all teams strive to play this way. It may be a wonderful feast of pass and movement and appeal to the connoisseur, but I will find myself in a take it or leave it situation.
That is not to say I prefer a kick and rush style.
I love variety in the style of football I watch evrything from rapier like passing from deep to blood and thunder charging down the line with a cross that a centre forward busts a gut to get on the end of right through to patient build up when the team is set.
Maybe it was Frances performance in yesterdays game that has brought me to this, as Italy made a good game out of it in the first of their group games and so far has been one of the bestter games in my eyes.
Lets see what happens from now on and hope that there is at least some tension in their next one or two games.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 09:35:04 AM by harrytrow »
How come pointed questions recieve blunt answers

Offline jDJ

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2012, 09:48:49 AM »
Weird to hear so many people agree with the idea this Spanish side are boring.  I personally don't find it boring at all.  Watching Xavi and Iniesta turn on the ball and give incredibly intricate passes in the tightest of spaces just brings a massive grin to my face, I could watch it all day everyday and never get bored of it.  It's watching complete mastery of my favourite sport, elevating it almost to a work of art in my opinion.

Barca's 5-0 win against Real was one of the best things I've ever seen of any genre.

If anything's boring it's the opposition's approach to it.  Spain and Barca are so effective at what they do, they only way to beat them is to defend deep and try to deny them space in advanced positions.

After reading this thread I'm much more fearful for Rodgers than I was before.  Just like Rafa, you just know if we draw or lose games his possession stats will be used as a stick to beat him with rather than something to use in his defence.

Offline hide5seek

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2012, 09:50:48 AM »
We passed teams to death in 70's and 80's, they stole the idea from us.

Offline harrytrow

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2012, 09:50:58 AM »
Weird to hear so many people agree with the idea this Spanish side are boring.  I personally don't find it boring at all.  Watching Xavi and Iniesta turn on the ball and give incredibly intricate passes in the tightest of spaces just brings a massive grin to my face, I could watch it all day everyday and never get bored of it.  It's watching complete mastery of my favourite sport, elevating it almost to a work of art in my opinion.

Barca's 5-0 win against Real was one of the best things I've ever seen of any genre.

If anything's boring it's the opposition's approach to it.  Spain and Barca are so effective at what they do, they only way to beat them is to defend deep and try to deny them space in advanced positions.

After reading this thread I'm much more fearful for Rodgers than I was before.  Just like Rafa, you just know if we draw or lose games his possession stats will be used as a stick to beat him with rather than something to use in his defence.
Dalglish suffered the same no?
How come pointed questions recieve blunt answers

Offline IamSpartacus

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2012, 09:57:02 AM »
When Sky starts telling you that Liverpool are boring...

I throw a coin in the air and

Heads: I commit suicide.
Tails: I either tell them to stfu, ignore the ignoramus, turn down the volume or change the channels.

Its always come up tails!
I, am the Illuminati!

Offline IamSpartacus

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2012, 10:19:17 AM »
Weird to hear so many people agree with the idea this Spanish side are boring.  I personally don't find it boring at all.  Watching Xavi and Iniesta turn on the ball and give incredibly intricate passes in the tightest of spaces just brings a massive grin to my face, I could watch it all day everyday and never get bored of it.  It's watching complete mastery of my favourite sport, elevating it almost to a work of art in my opinion.

Barca's 5-0 win against Real was one of the best things I've ever seen of any genre.

If anything's boring it's the opposition's approach to it.  Spain and Barca are so effective at what they do, they only way to beat them is to defend deep and try to deny them space in advanced positions.

After reading this thread I'm much more fearful for Rodgers than I was before.  Just like Rafa, you just know if we draw or lose games his possession stats will be used as a stick to beat him with rather than something to use in his defence.

It's an interesting thought though.

Why would someone consider total pass and move boring unless their concept of anti boredom was a more equal footing and battling for the ball. More argy bargy perhaps, more equality.

Maybe somebody looks at it and says I want to see two equally opposed teams trade punches. It is an interesting one. I suppose it comes down to why somebody actually watches football.

The statement 'bored' is just a phrase used by someone (I am assuming) to describe what they they think is, not what they want!
So what they want, is something that fits in with what they believe the game should be about.
To them.
Something that excites them.
And if two blokes wrestling in the mud over the ball is what ticks their box then its fine by me. But I may not be supporting that team. Perhaps that is boring to me. Maybe it might be quite funny to see once in a while. See how football has evolved. Its like that scene in 2001 where one view you see these apemen grunting, sniffing, scratching around in a pit hitting each other over the head with bones. And the next scene a ballet in space.

If a punter or friend said the game was boring yet you are thrilled by every quick step, shuffle, two foot shimmy then neither is wrong. It's only someones personal opinion. Yeh some bloke on the box said boring. Ok. Fine by me. It's your footballing spectacles that you want to experience the game with and if it makes you happy to describe one thing one way and another thing, another way then hey thats alright by me too.

I think what would be boring (for me) is for everyone to be saying the same thing. No individuality!

I welcome the thoughts of all punters, opinionaters, righteousists, preachers, spectaclists and naysayers.
I welcome your bored opinions.
I welcome it because sometimes, it tells me more about you, then it does about the game.
I'm off for some brekky.
I, am the Illuminati!

Offline geoffstrong

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2012, 10:33:09 AM »
Surely if we play to the Swansea system or as close as, whether it is boring for some will be dictated by how effective it is, winning games and gaining points generally stop any brickbats!

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Hillsborough Independent Panel, thank you for revealing the 23 years of lies and corruption by the establishment.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

12-September-2012 the day the rest of the world discovered the truth and caught up with the rest us.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 10:42:27 AM »
I find watching the Spanish team to be amusing in their ability to pass around opposition players as if the other team were subbuteo men! There is almost an element of now you see it there it's gone again to it!
I also find the football played by Spain to be full of artistry and expression I discount the robotic notion because they have a set pattern but they weave other intricate patterns within it like a majestic tapestry!
To do this you need intelligent players not robotic ones.
How do you stop them if anyone can, well let's discount the Barca Chelsea comparison to start with, Chelsea did not find the magic antidote to this style simply over two legs the Barca players. could not hit a barn door with a banjo as the saying goes.
For me any elements of presumed boredom are created when as with France first half the opposition sits back and allows them to play their game and from the start France seemed to be in awe and defeated before the kick off with the notable exception of Ribery!
For me the only way to perhaps beat them is to go at them a few crunching tackles, pressurise them on the ball, do not allow them to set the tempo for the game, they may still take you apart but at least you lose bravely rather than meekly. I think the Germans are equipped to beat them this way.

I think the way to undo them, as opposed to merely hoping to catch them out, is to go at them with confidence and conviction. Not just kicking them into the air, although that can be part of it, but simply going about things as though you know what you're doing and you utterly believe in it. A contest between 2 sets of fanatics with differing footballing beliefs. But to do that, you need firstly a secure technical base (if your technique isn't up to scratch you don't get into a position to match beliefs against them in the first place), and secondly you need a coach who can both instill that near religious belief in the players, and who can also out think the other guy.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Online kopitecrash

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 10:44:55 AM »
Spain's style wouldn't work in league football. The reason it works at the highest level is because their style makes them incredibly hard to beat - thus incredibly hard to knock out. It will probably win them the tournament because the tactic is tailor made to overcome other technical teams. But they don't have a Messi, they don't have an Alves. If Brendan Rodgers tries to copy Spain to the extent they play, we will have problems.
I know what you mean. I really wish the Madrid born former Real Vallodolid, Osasuna, Tenerife, Extremadura, Valencia and Inter Milan manager stayed loyal and faithful to a foreign club that sacked him by never managing another club again. Burn him.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2012, 10:48:23 AM »
Spain's style wouldn't work in league football. The reason it works at the highest level is because their style makes them incredibly hard to beat - thus incredibly hard to knock out. It will probably win them the tournament because the tactic is tailor made to overcome other technical teams. But they don't have a Messi, they don't have an Alves. If Brendan Rodgers tries to copy Spain to the extent they play, we will have problems.

I think it would work, for the same reason that Man Utd's extremely different tactics work for them, and Benitez's tactics never worked quite enough to win the league. They are completely schooled in what they're doing, and they believe completely in it.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline harrytrow

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Re: Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2012, 10:53:50 AM »
It's an interesting thought though.

Why would someone consider total pass and move boring unless their concept of anti boredom was a more equal footing and battling for the ball. More argy bargy perhaps, more equality.

Maybe somebody looks at it and says I want to see two equally opposed teams trade punches. It is an interesting one. I suppose it comes down to why somebody actually watches football.

The statement 'bored' is just a phrase used by someone (I am assuming) to describe what they they think is, not what they want!
So what they want, is something that fits in with what they believe the game should be about.
To them.
Something that excites them.
And if two blokes wrestling in the mud over the ball is what ticks their box then its fine by me. But I may not be supporting that team. Perhaps that is boring to me. Maybe it might be quite funny to see once in a while. See how football has evolved. Its like that scene in 2001 where one view you see these apemen grunting, sniffing, scratching around in a pit hitting each other over the head with bones. And the next scene a ballet in space.

If a punter or friend said the game was boring yet you are thrilled by every quick step, shuffle, two foot shimmy then neither is wrong. It's only someones personal opinion. Yeh some bloke on the box said boring. Ok. Fine by me. It's your footballing spectacles that you want to experience the game with and if it makes you happy to describe one thing one way and another thing, another way then hey thats alright by me too.

I think what would be boring (for me) is for everyone to be saying the same thing. No individuality!

I welcome the thoughts of all punters, opinionaters, righteousists, preachers, spectaclists and naysayers.
I welcome your bored opinions.
I welcome it because sometimes, it tells me more about you, then it does about the game.
I'm off for some brekky.
Hope you had a good scran
Not sure how to take your remarks

A game so one side in skill levels is totally boring
Two teams equally skilled and competing is exciting whether it is in mud and banging each other over the heads with clubs in some unevolved fashion or on a silk carpet and wearing tut tus(sp?) and ballet slippers.
I have been fortunate to watch the game evolve over time since our second division games and was impressed with Paisleys football revolution (in my eyes)
I still found many games boring due to the lack of skill in the way teams tried to combat our play.
Many's the time it was similar to Spain last night with an inevitability that we would win .
However the lack of equality from the opposition resulted in many a dull game and was reflected in the silence from the kop at many games.
Yes there were many silences were you could hear individuals shouting something witty that would draw a murmur of chuckling.
Boring as I said in a previous post probably not the right word.
People still want to see competition not walk overs or a game that has an inevitable outcome.
Of course there is never that degree of certainty in any outcome, but if there is no credible competitive opposition then interest can wane quite easily, even for a purist or a connoisseur.
How come pointed questions recieve blunt answers