Author Topic: The FSG 'Game Plan'  (Read 8359 times)

Offline laddo

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The FSG 'Game Plan'
« on: June 18, 2012, 07:28:42 AM »
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, I have looked but cannot see it.

Probably worthy of its own thread considering Linda Pizzuti recommended the article on Twitter and John Henry started following the author shortly after. Assuming then that this is pretty close to the reality of FSG's "game plan".

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2012/06/the-game-plan/

The author is Si Steers https://twitter.com/#!/sisteers

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 07:36:41 AM »
Quote
The technical committee appointments are now almost complete with the appointment of David Fallows from Manchester City. Fallows is a pioneer in the scouting space; he has changed the way that scouts interact and transferred the knowledge base from individual scouts into an integrated data model. He is exactly the kind of fit that FSG favour; innovative, data driven and progressive.
Isn't this the same model that hired Comolli?

Offline steveeastend

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 08:34:17 AM »
Isn't this the same model that hired Comolli?

Yes, it looks like so. But nobody knows if Fallows has more quality to offer...

Did City wanted to get rid of him anyway as Mancini had the final say anyway, or was he a big part of putting together the squad...? who knows.

I think it could turn out that they are lucky this time with the appointment of Rodgers, maybe they are lucky here too.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:07:01 PM by steveeastend »

Offline McAlvis

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 08:37:53 AM »
Isn't this the same model that hired Comolli?

I think Comolli did mention at some point that multiple scouts had to recommend a player before the club signed them. Whether that constitutes an 'integrated data model' I'm not sure.

In my opinion the failing of Comolli was not that he tried to instigate a more 'data driven' approach to scouting; more that he did not have the football intelligence to realise what statistics are valid to what players, what other non-statistical considerations needed to be taken into account (does the player have the right mentality to play for a club like Liverpool etc.), and had an over reliance on the chances created 'stat' (it isn't a real statistic as a 'chance' is indefinable). Hopefully Fallows wont make the same mistakes.
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Offline sirjames

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 10:43:37 AM »
Old fashioned view but i prefer someone who knows what they are talking about and just 'knows' when a player is good enough.

Seems simplistic but someone once said that its a pretty simple game.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 10:51:29 AM »
Old fashioned view but i prefer someone who knows what they are talking about and just 'knows' when a player is good enough.

Seems simplistic but someone once said that its a pretty simple game.


I agree with you mate.  Stats have their place but this is not cricket or baseball, sports that are essentially one v one within a team structure.  In football everything is interdependent.  The pass completion ratio of a midfielder is dependent on the willingness of his colleagues to show for the ball.  The crosses and assist figures for a winger are dependent on the strikers or attacking mids getting to the ball before the defenders.

Then there is the whole question of balance, which players can play together, which will gel as a team.  Look at the Dutch side last night, on paper a statto's dream, on grass a hopelessly unbalanced collection of c*nts who were totally incapable of getting hold of the ball and gaining enough possession to make their stats count.  They looked a far better side when they had the more statistically challenged Dirk Kuyt in the side.
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Offline sirjames

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 11:05:59 AM »
I agree with you mate.  Stats have their place but this is not cricket or baseball, sports that are essentially one v one within a team structure.  In football everything is interdependent.  The pass completion ratio of a midfielder is dependent on the willingness of his colleagues to show for the ball.  The crosses and assist figures for a winger are dependent on the strikers or attacking mids getting to the ball before the defenders.

Then there is the whole question of balance, which players can play together, which will gel as a team.  Look at the Dutch side last night, on paper a statto's dream, on grass a hopelessly unbalanced collection of c*nts who were totally incapable of getting hold of the ball and gaining enough possession to make their stats count.  They looked a far better side when they had the more statistically challenged Dirk Kuyt in the side.

I am yet to see any evidence of a side assembled by stats that is any cheaper or better than one assembled using traditional methods. Granted we dont know which teams rely more on stats than others but assuming the older manager such as 'Arry and Mr Alex Ferguson dont use them i cant see how they get more wrong than others and if I am being honest they seem to get more right if anything.

I just dont think you can beat someone that knows football saying "he's a brilliant footballer, we should get him" rather than "he created 12 chances, 4 of them are goal scoring chances, he completes 10 fast sprints etc etc"

If your a manager you live and die by your decisions, stats may have a place but i would prefer my destiny as a manager to be on my own judgement and not a method devised in a lab somewhere but thats because i back my own judgement ... As any manager worth his salt would.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 11:08:47 AM by sirjames »
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 11:09:49 AM »
I think it could turn out that they are lucky this time with the appointment of Rodgers, maybe they are lucky here too.

If Rodgers turns out to be a success it'll be anything but luck on FSG's part, more a bloody brave masterstroke.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 01:22:33 PM »
Old fashioned view but i prefer someone who knows what they are talking about and just 'knows' when a player is good enough.

Seems simplistic but someone once said that its a pretty simple game.


In a nutshell.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 01:48:28 PM »
I am yet to see any evidence of a side assembled by stats that is any cheaper or better than one assembled using traditional methods. Granted we dont know which teams rely more on stats than others but assuming the older manager such as 'Arry and Mr Alex Ferguson dont use them i cant see how they get more wrong than others and if I am being honest they seem to get more right if anything.

I just dont think you can beat someone that knows football saying "he's a brilliant footballer, we should get him" rather than "he created 12 chances, 4 of them are goal scoring chances, he completes 10 fast sprints etc etc"


It's a false distinction. All managers and scouts will use stats one way or another. Saying someone is "a brilliant footballer" tells you nothing useful about the player, where does he play? How can you use him? How will he fit in alongside the sort of players you have at the club? Stats can give you an insight into all of that. No-one says they are perfect, but just saying they are rubbish misses the point. As a fan you don't need to worry about them, but the scouts and manager will be using them. A lot.

Offline sirjames

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 02:09:14 PM »
It's a false distinction. All managers and scouts will use stats one way or another. Saying someone is "a brilliant footballer" tells you nothing useful about the player, where does he play? How can you use him? How will he fit in alongside the sort of players you have at the club? Stats can give you an insight into all of that. No-one says they are perfect, but just saying they are rubbish misses the point. As a fan you don't need to worry about them, but the scouts and manager will be using them. A lot.

I never said they are useless, and i never dismissed them. I am just a believer of getting a incredibly talented manger to make a decision on a player and if he is good enough to play in his team using his instinct and ability rather than numbers.

I am all for scouts using as much data as they want they can produce all in the statistical data they can, but before i would would want the manager to look at any of that i would want him to watch him in 10 or so games and be able to so yes or no.

I think stats internally at a club are important and they have a role that is to be assessed and certain recommendations can be made through stats to your own players and you can make assessments on other players that you may be playing in up coming matches using stats. BUT you can also as a incredibly talented and hard working manager watch a player you are to play against and 'just notice' certain things about players and what they like to do, how you can combat them without stats.

As we have seen stats are all well and good but how do you interpretate them. If a player scores 15 times before feb stats tell us he must be a talented goalscorer ... our eyes tell us hes michael ricketts and we should not be interested.

I guess what i am saying is i watch a football match with my eyes and it seems to be more fashionable in the last 3 years to watch it through a spreadsheet.

As much as football as changed i think if it was good enough for bob then its good enough for us now.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 02:09:38 PM »
Good article and while some will disagree I do feel that the moves made by FSG in the last few weeks have been positive and show both their desire to work towards a plan and their willingness to be flexible in terms of the plan (as with Rodgers and the idea of a Sporting Director).

I think too many people get hung up on the whole 'stats' argument.  In modern football there is an element of statistical analysis for every signing.  It's a part of the scouting role.  The impression I get from this from a liverpool perspective is that while we are looking at building a technical group who can analyse and find the best players, the analysis is about more than just whether they are a good footballer, but what we should pay.  This is why comolli failed.  All of the players signed (including Downing) were good players at their respective clubs.  The money we paid was the issue, and a team of experts should be analysing not only whether the player is good enough, but also what the true value of the player is.

There is a balance to all of this and I am confident that the statistical portion of player identification will be balanced with good 'old-fashioned' scouting.  Take Siggurdson.  If we sign him then that's down to the fact that the manager has worked with him before and he knows how he will fit into our model.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 02:12:06 PM »
If Rodgers turns out to be a success it'll be anything but luck on FSG's part, more a bloody brave masterstroke.

It will look like that, but at this particular point in time, considering the circumstances, it´s still a big gamble which they are not aware of. Otherwise they wouldn´t take it in our current situation as there is little to no room for further mistakes anymore. How far can they afford to let the club fall behind, especially considering the consequences money wise?

Personally I think, and hope, he will be successful, but from a pure football point of view, they didn´t know what they were doing. How should it be different, they try to learn all about european football in a very short period of time and it´s simply not possible for them to be fully aware of all the consequences possible.


« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:14:16 PM by steveeastend »

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 02:15:45 PM »
It will look like that, but at this particular point in time, considering the circumstances, it´s still a big gamble which they are not aware of. Otherwise they wouldn´t take it in our current situation as there is little to no room for further mistakes anymore. How far can they afford to let the club fall behind, especially considering the consequences money wise?

Personally I think, and hope, he will be successful, but from a pure football point of view, they didn´t know what they were doing. How should it be different, they try to learn all about european football in a very short period of time and it´s simply not possible for them to be fully aware of all the consequences possible.

They have clearly been getting advice from somewhere regarding the decisions they are making. I highly doubt they are making these sorts of decisions purely off their own back.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 02:20:53 PM »
They have clearly been getting advice from somewhere regarding the decisions they are making. I highly doubt they are making these sorts of decisions purely off their own back.

It´s probably a mixture of both.. To me, they still look like trying to being smarted than the rest of this european football circus in their decisions. The results have been mixed so far..

Offline steveeastend

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2012, 02:24:03 PM »
Old fashioned view but i prefer someone who just 'knows' when a player is good enough.

Rodgers. That´s why I am very happy that he refused to work with a european style DoF.

There is only one danger for Rodgers in all this.. agents and politics within the club against him at some point.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:26:30 PM by steveeastend »

Offline Vulmea

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2012, 02:27:04 PM »
Stats have a part to play but they are still trying to identify the genuinely significant ones - if they can find ones that help identify a players mentality then they will be on to a winner much more so than pass completion. If they can find some that tell you the player has 'football intelligence' - and knows when and why to make the right pass then that would be another.

I thought the article contradicted itself - first laying out the importance of football intelligence and than saying technical ability will be the dominate characteristic - I think we'll be looking at intelligent footballers with technical ability to back it up - stats may be able to help but they can't be the whole story.

Any suggestion that we use 'tika-taka' should be met with pitch forks and flaming torches

There continues to be this idea that FSG want a DoF - FSG dont have a clue about football - they could want the moon on a stick - it doesn't matter - they need somebody to tell them about the game - they should have trusted Kenny - they didn't - they couldn't connect with him - they've picked Rodgers maybe they'll listen to him.

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Offline Jim Pooley

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2012, 02:47:11 PM »
FSG's "game plan"
Is it "We're gonna score one more than you"?

Offline rocco

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2012, 03:10:52 PM »
Has it ever been confirmed who is advising FSG/the club on the new set up and the apointment of Rodgers ?

David Dein ?
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 03:56:12 PM »
I'm so worried the FSG game plan is to be arsenal.

Play pretty, be in contention, up the value of the asset, but it doesn't matter if we win. Don't know why that's the feeling I can't shake.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 04:14:56 PM »
Has it ever been confirmed who is advising FSG/the club on the new set up and the apointment of Rodgers ?

David Dein ?

It certainly looks like they've spoken to him, but also to Borrell and Segura, and probably to a lot of other people in and around the game. Rodgers looks like a perfect fit in any case.

Offline HighSix

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 04:18:23 PM »
I have seen nothing credible its David Dein advising them, is it supposed to be as a formal role or just someone to ask questions when needed?

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 04:18:54 PM »
I'm so worried the FSG game plan is to be arsenal.

Play pretty, be in contention, up the value of the asset, but it doesn't matter if we win. Don't know why that's the feeling I can't shake.

I think they more mean Arsenal as in have a good youth policy, play good football, etc. rather than not winning anything.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 04:55:23 PM »
Has it ever been confirmed who is advising FSG/the club on the new set up and the apointment of Rodgers ?

David Dein ?

Just rumours about Dein and Parry. Nothing 'confirmed'.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 04:58:18 PM »
FSG game plan... bright, shiny, happy, clappy LFC. A big brother in the all singing and dancing football family, that can be sold at a huge profit.

Before anyone bothers... Yes. I know what they've done at Boston Red Sox. Yes. I know they said LFC has to be successful on the pitch for FSG to be successful in the counting house. We'll see.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2012, 05:04:24 PM »
FSG game plan... bright, shiny, happy, clappy LFC. A big brother in the all singing and dancing football family, that can be sold at a huge profit.

Before anyone bothers... Yes. I know what they've done at Boston Red Sox. Yes. I know they said LFC has to be successful on the pitch for FSG to be successful in the counting house. We'll see.

Yep in an nutshell Leo
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Offline The Lash

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2012, 05:12:28 PM »
It's a false distinction. All managers and scouts will use stats one way or another. Saying someone is "a brilliant footballer" tells you nothing useful about the player, where does he play? How can you use him? How will he fit in alongside the sort of players you have at the club? Stats can give you an insight into all of that. No-one says they are perfect, but just saying they are rubbish misses the point. As a fan you don't need to worry about them, but the scouts and manager will be using them. A lot.

Dont think we would have seen crazy horse playing for us using stats. Only played a handful of games for Blackpool, not much stats to go on. A football brain is all that is needed.

Offline The Lash

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 05:15:43 PM »
I think they more mean Arsenal as in have a good youth policy, play good football, etc. rather than not winning anything.

No need to win anything, the arse is the way fporward for them. We can't challenge for the title, it would mean massive investment anf the owners wont do that, just keep us ticking over and sell when the time is right

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2012, 05:16:58 PM »
FSG game plan... bright, shiny, happy, clappy LFC. A big brother in the all singing and dancing football family, that can be sold at a huge profit.

Before anyone bothers... Yes. I know what they've done at Boston Red Sox. Yes. I know they said LFC has to be successful on the pitch for FSG to be successful in the counting house. We'll see.

You may as well just pack up now until they fuck off.

Won't be that long, they're only in it for the fast buck, aren't they?
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 05:31:49 PM »
FSG game plan... bright, shiny, happy, clappy LFC. A big brother in the all singing and dancing football family, that can be sold at a huge profit.

Before anyone bothers... Yes. I know what they've done at Boston Red Sox. Yes. I know they said LFC has to be successful on the pitch for FSG to be successful in the counting house. We'll see.
You'll be waiting about 10 years at least
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2012, 06:15:03 PM »
There's an equally good article with an alternative view if anyone's interested. From twitter
 http://www.joescouse.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/new-anfield-response-to-john-w-henry.html?m=1
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2012, 06:24:15 PM »
There's an equally good article with an alternative view if anyone's interested. From twitter
 http://www.joescouse.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/new-anfield-response-to-john-w-henry.html?m=1

It's not good at all to be honest.

You cannot compare Manchester to Liverpool, the facts just do not match at all.

And trying to say, on average, our ST prices are that of Uniteds is wrong too as it does not take in to account the number of tickets at each price level. He just takes the difference between highest and lowest. Would be similar to Arsenal having one ST for £10 and 59,999 for £2000 and therefore saying the average is approx £1000.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2012, 06:40:57 PM »
Old fashioned view but i prefer someone who knows what they are talking about and just 'knows' when a player is good enough.

Seems simplistic but someone once said that its a pretty simple game.

Fair enough but you won't find many of them working in the top flight nowadays.

Oh, and as for the Rodgers shout, he is an intense user of statistics and the complete opposite of the type of manager you are describing above.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2012, 06:46:04 PM »
It's not good at all to be honest.

You cannot compare Manchester to Liverpool, the facts just do not match at all.

And trying to say, on average, our ST prices are that of Uniteds is wrong too as it does not take in to account the number of tickets at each price level. He just takes the difference between highest and lowest. Would be similar to Arsenal having one ST for £10 and 59,999 for £2000 and therefore saying the average is approx £1000.
Alright Craig, break it down for us.

Why are you looking past this season?

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2012, 06:58:06 PM »
Alright Craig, break it down for us.

Which bit, the Manchester/Liverpool comparison? Peter and Alan have done it many many times in the Stadium forum so all in there.

The average price of the ST I'm not working out as, to be honest, can't be bothered, but the way he has done it just isn't the correct way to then make a comparison as he has.
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Offline RedHandGang

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2012, 07:19:20 PM »
Old fashioned view but i prefer someone who knows what they are talking about and just 'knows' when a player is good enough.

Seems simplistic but someone once said that its a pretty simple game.


Not old fashioned it is blatant common sense. You can train certain attributes like stamina, endurance sprinting etc and teach positioning anticipation and awareness, what you can't teach is how individuals combine such attributes using statistical data alone.

Anyone who has ever played the game or even watched should be able to tell a decent player on sight, makes you think sometimes what the hell have the scouts been doing?
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Offline rednich85

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2012, 07:26:16 PM »
Anyone who has ever played the game or even watched should be able to tell a decent player on sight, makes you think sometimes what the hell have the scouts been doing?

This is nonsense.

Not everyone can spot potential, which is what we should be doing. Not buying players other clubs have already made.
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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2012, 07:36:15 PM »
I'm so worried the FSG game plan is to be arsenal.

Play pretty, be in contention, up the value of the asset, but it doesn't matter if we win. Don't know why that's the feeling I can't shake.

This.

IMO all FSG are doing is trying to improve on what we have at present - in itself no bad thing - but get the feeling it's to leave us in a position like the poster refers to above.

Everyone's happy they froze the ticket prices for next season - but the corporates have been shafted with rise in ticket prices of nearly 25%.  They can only milk that tit for so long until those sort of hikes start to hit the ordinary tickets.

After noises about a new stadium, they quickly started to talk about "historic Anfield".

Get the feeling they will try and sweat this particular asset for all it's worth until they can't take it any further, then try and sell up at a big profit.

Any future buyer will still need to build a new stadium to compete as we'll have fallen even further behind, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and Man United. They are all financially better of than us now. If FSG don't make a move on the stadium we'll stay well behind them.
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2012, 07:51:01 PM »
Not old fashioned it is blatant common sense. You can train certain attributes like stamina, endurance sprinting etc and teach positioning anticipation and awareness, what you can't teach is how individuals combine such attributes using statistical data alone.

Anyone who has ever played the game or even watched should be able to tell a decent player on sight, makes you think sometimes what the hell have the scouts been doing?

No. You can tell someone at the top of his game, a Messi, a Ronaldo, of course, anyone can. But before he signed for Man Utd, Phil Thompson went and had a look at Ronaldo. He saw a good player, but not one worth upsetting Antony La Tallec over. Tommo played the game at the very highest level, so what's going on there?

Offline rednich85

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Re: The FSG 'Game Plan'
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2012, 07:53:10 PM »
No. You can tell someone at the top of his game, a Messi, a Ronaldo, of course, anyone can. But before he signed for Man Utd, Phil Thompson went and had a look at Ronaldo. He saw a good player, but not one worth upsetting Antony La Tallec over. Tommo played the game at the very highest level, so what's going on there?

Agree 100%.

There's a high level of skill (and luck) involved in scouting the right players.

If it wasn't, every fucker with access to youtube would be sending their CV's to top clubs offering their services.
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