Topic: Trust...it ain't what you say, it's the way that you do it...

[rola]

We are expected to take a lot on trust.  Our role is to support the team come what way.

I was going to write about how the relationship between the club and its fans has changed over the years, and how that has slowly eroded the bond (of trust) that existed between them.  I decided against it.  It would be too long and too boring and I’m not that good a writer to hold a piece like that together. 

Besides, that’s not an experience that’s exclusive to our club – it’s one shared by most supporters at most clubs.  It’s a manifestation of the developing commercialisation and commodification of football.  As football has expanded into global markets, the local grassroots support has become less important to the owners and moneymen who decide how the game is run.  That’s modern football. 

I decided instead to focus on our club, and to simply provide a very personal perspective on trust. 

I trusted Shankly, Paisley and all the bootroom boys first of all, because my parents told me I should, and later because their deeds and actions showed me I should.  My parents were right. 

I trusted Kenny Dalglish because of all the wonderful things he did and achieved for us as a player, a manager and as a man. 

I trusted Rafa Benitez because of what he achieved as a manager and how he stood up for us when our “custodians” started to show their true colours. 

Right now, I don’t trust anyone in a position of authority at the club.  I’ve been trying to work out why.

I think things got messed up for me when Rafa got bushwhacked.  It was wrong and there was nothing anyone could do about it – that was the point that the values of the club started to openly diverge from those of the supporters.  It might have started long before then, but that was the incident that brought it home to me – like I said, this is a personal perspective

Then the FSG takeover – the relief at getting ridding of that other pair and maybe some fresh hope that things would start to get back on track.  Hodge soon dampened that – a man so out of tune with the club it was painful.  FSG got rid and installed Kenny as caretaker and there was a groundswell of optimism and positivity.  I loved that feeling when he walked out at OT – the King was back!

I’ll be honest here.  I didn’t want Kenny to get the job full time.  I just didn’t think it would work out well for him, for us, for the club.  I’m not claiming that I had any sort of great foresight or judgement, but I didn’t want a legend and a hero to have to put himself in that firing line.  He had nothing left to prove for me, and still doesn’t.   

I said I didn’t want to write a long one and reckon I’m rambling on now (see told you I can’t hold it together).  So let’s cut to the chase then.

We’re being asked to take a lot on trust right now too.  It’s big ask.  Based on what though?  FSG has so far:

Hired and sacked a DoF whose sole achievement was to implement an anti-matter version of moneyball where we overvalue & overpay.  Apparently, he aced his interview though.

Given a manager a 3 year deal and sacked him after one following 1 cup & 2 finals. Why do that? Why not back him? If he wasn’t what they wanted, why offer him the full time job or why not have some sort of 1 year rolling deal that would allow one or other to call it quits if it wasn’t working out?

Not made any sort of decision on the stadium.  We mustn’t forget that this was the sole reason we were told we needed to sell up to the corporate world in the first place. Has whoever was put in charge of that area been sacked yet?

Recruited a manager through a process that played out X-factor style in the press.  A long list, then a short list and apparently there was only ever one first choice anyway. It looked and sounded like a complete mess.  It still does even as it’s reinvented after the fact. 

Recruited a manager based on advice from “experts”.  Who are these experts exactly?  No one knows.  No one appears to be asking?  I’d like to know.  Instead, we’re being asked to take it on trust.

Recruited a manager who has 152 games in charge of a first team, one season as a manager in top flight football and whose success to date has been not getting a team relegated.  Paul Lambert did the same with Norwich and finished level on points with the mighty Swansea.  He likes Barcelona and did a super first press conference though, so that’s alright then isn’t it?

Decided that they want a continental model with a DoF, then decided not.  Not sure we’ve heard the last on this one yet mind.

There’s not a lot there to fill me with confidence that the people in charge know what they’re doing.  There’s a lot to suggest that they’re winging it, or learning as they go, like we are some sort of trainer club for new football owners.

Maybe I’m wrong about some, maybe all of this.  Maybe there’s some sort of master plan that has been taking shape all along. Maybe.

Maybe they’ll be great owners.

Maybe Brendan Rodgers will be great manager for us. 

They’re going to have to earn my trust – not by what they say, but what they actually do and how they go about doing it.  I feel as though I’m back where I started as a nipper – except my parents aren’t around to tell me what to do anymore, and if they were, I reckon they’d tell me to be careful who I trust. 

[Vulmea]

For a really crap writer you make a lot of sense.

I can't fault any of it.

I think we can add to the litany of uncertainty with the Fans Committee,  the promises for interaction with fan groups which never materialised and the Suarez debacle.

None of this means they are bad people - none of it means they have some grim agenda but nor does any of it mean they know what they are doing. They've shown they didn't even trust themselves with some of their decisons. I dont know their motivations or intentions but I dont think they are the senntimental sort Maybe they'll grow to love us. The occasional billionaire has gone all noble in their auld age.

I think we should have been prepared for most of it - even the latest appointment. They are hot shot american business men. They didn't get where they are by having angst and self doubt - they  now think they know enough or have been told enough to make the decisions  they need to - after all its been 20 months now............... is there anything as annoying as some twerp who borrows your watch to tell you the time  - ok in this case they got the watch from the pawn shop but its still got the inscription from your gran, its still got your initials on it...........

I think they decided on a refurbishment some time ago but have being playing politics to make it work - I'm hopeful we'll see it announced very soon - especially if the rumours on house offers are true - the main stand and the anny road to be upgraded take us up to near 60K with corporate and commercial money spinners coming out their ears - theres some good info on that in the New Stadium Board.  I'd have liked more info, so would the residents I think.

The new manager did a fantastic job at his press conference but he needs to walk the walk now.

As you say, unconditioanl support of the club can't extend to people who you dont know but I'll certaionly give tghem the time to prove to me one way or the other what they are about.

Keep the shit posts coming you may right as gud as what I did one day 

[Red Reign]

How much of the distrust that is directed at FSG is a result of their own actions? I feel that people use the H&G ownership as a reason to dislike the "American owners". I don't suggest we let our guard down but FSG need to be given time for their vision to unfold before they can be judged.

[mercury]

Great OP.  Really resonates.  And particular this:

Not made any sort of decision on the stadium.  We mustn’t forget that this was the sole reason we were told we needed to sell up to the corporate world in the first place. Has whoever was put in charge of that area been sacked yet?

A great reminder. 

The whole rationale for the shareholders to sell up -- by that I do not mean Moores but the many small holders, many of whom had treasured their maybe just one single share for generations, has been to INPUT some much needed equity into the Club to build the stadium.  We have known we need a new stadium but can't afford it. 

Now we're being told the Club have to do it itself.  Perhaps there are some ingenious way to make up that difference in revenue -- which is in effect financial competitiveness -- because of the stadium size.  Two years the owners have been studying the puzzle now, I wonder how long it will continue to take.

The funny thing is that, financials is supposed to be our new owners'  strength.  Yet this is the one most important area that they choose to be inert, so far, while all the time they are groping their way on the football side of the biz.

Mid-table mediocrity is a distinct possibility.  I hope Rodgers really does good.

[ziggyy]

KiNKi did an excellent timeline of recent events with regard to this, and while I hope FSG and the new Liverpool franchise comes good, at the moment, I'll temper down my excitement until we really see some real 'progress' on the project...

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=268992.msg10451118#msg10451118

[mercury]

How much of the distrust that is directed at FSG is a result of their own actions? I feel that people use the H&G ownership as a reason to dislike the "American owners". I don't suggest we let our guard down but FSG need to be given time for their vision to unfold before they can be judged.

Why do G&H got dragged up whenever we talk about FSG?

Two matters.  Two groups of people. 

The issues we are talking about in this thread is COMPETENCY of FSG, based on their own performance at LFC. 

We can quite differentiate between FSG and G&H.  Please don't under-estimate your fellow posters' intelligence here.  Thank you.

[Big Red Richie]

Why do G&H got dragged up whenever we talk about FSG?

Two matters.  Two groups of people. 

The issues we are talking about in this thread is COMPETENCY of FSG, based on their own performance at LFC. 

We can quite differentiate between FSG and G&H.  Please don't under-estimate your fellow posters' intelligence here.  Thank you.

Once bitten, twice shy.  Simple.

They may well be two completely different and seperate sets of owners, but until the club starts to move in the right direction, on and off the park, there will always be a sizeable proportion of supporters who will just see the current owners as another set of financial corporate hawks.

Having had our fingers burnt once, it's not so easy to take people at their word a second time, and trust  - although not the current owners fault -  is harder earned, at the second time of asking.

[Red Reign]

Why do G&H got dragged up whenever we talk about FSG?

Two matters.  Two groups of people. 

The issues we are talking about in this thread is COMPETENCY of FSG, based on their own performance at LFC. 

We can quite differentiate between FSG and G&H.  Please don't under-estimate your fellow posters' intelligence here.  Thank you.

Not underestimating anyone's intelligence or implying that people here can't differentiate owners. I meant to ask, perhaps not clearly, whether the H&G ownership has changed the supporters attitude towards new owners. The whole "once bitten, twice shy" idea.

[kiNki]

How much of the distrust that is directed at FSG is a result of their own actions?

Quite abit as demonstrated from the opening post.  They know diddly squat about football.  They bought a few football books in an attempt to get up to speed when they bought us.  They were supposed to be on the lookout for a ceo, 18 months on, nothing.  We have pre eminent people advising them.  Who they are, what there qualifications are, we do not know and they are unaccountable for any football decisions being made. If there's disgruntlement, and there is regarding the treatment of the greatest living servant of the club, the decision falls back onto the people who are known - our owners, not their pre eminent advisors.  If they had a ceo, we'd be asking him, for an explanation, him being the football expert at the club.  In the absense of a ceo we have ian ayres.   Ian ayres, brought in as a commercial director, has a bit of success in that field, is promoted to managing director, and perhaps is giving advice on football matters, transfers and dave whelan. 

I feel that people use the H&G ownership as a reason to dislike the "American owners". I don't suggest we let our guard down but FSG need to be given time for their vision to unfold before they can be judged.

No doubt there is suspicion overflowing from the previous owners.  Perhaps its not fair to say they are cut from the same cloth, one put us in debt the others took us out of debt.   Both i think were/are looking to make a buck out of us.   I dont mind that and i'm fully aware of the need to milk the commercial cow.   It may come as a surprise, given how poor and inept, moores and parry were.  Before them we were quite on the ball in that regard.  First to wear a sponsor on the shirt for example.  Even so, we still held some principles and had an ethos of doing things the liverpool way.   Something i hope fsg get to grips with and quickly. 

You want fsg given time, back to the first point, regarding their own actions, they appointed kenny and camolli and didnt give them alot of time, i know full well, as do others, if rodgers doesnt get off to a good start, questions will be asked, by the media, and the fans, not of rodgers, not of our pre eminent advisors, but of fsg.  They will have nobody but themselves to blame. 

We support the club and want to see it do well, by extension, see fsg do well, nobody wants the club to fail, by extension, fsg fail.  A benefit of the h&g ownership is people are asking questions when things dont add up, they say one thing, do another.  Asking questions is akin to giving constructive criticism, which we hope, they pick up on, pull their finger out and do something about it, so at some point we see some stability, us singing from the same song sheet, and the club finally after 6 years moving forward. 

[jckliew]

Didnt trust H & G.
i thought FSG could be different.
Never trust a Yank bizmen.....end of. 

[soxfan]

Why do G&H got dragged up whenever we talk about FSG?

Two matters.  Two groups of people. 

The issues we are talking about in this thread is COMPETENCY of FSG, based on their own performance at LFC. 

We can quite differentiate between FSG and G&H.  Please don't under-estimate your fellow posters' intelligence here. Thank you.

Your Honor, I'd like to admit the post above me by jckliew as evidence in this case. It reads:
 
"Didnt trust H & G.
i thought FSG could be different.
Never trust a Yank bizmen.....end of. "   

The Prosecution rests, Your Honor. We ask that that you find the Defendants guilty as charged. 

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

I think we all know that they're not very knowledgeable when it comes to running a football club, what they do appear to be knowledgeable about is business, and I think their plan is to recruit footballing men and leave the football to them. Personally I'm not bothered whether they keep the club at arms length. They're never going to care about the club as much as us, and therefore any pretence at such would be disingenuous, kind of like turning up on Sky in the early hours of the morning brandishing an official mug. If they want to let the club run itself with the people they appoint, then fine. I wouldn't want the guiding hand (or interference) of someone that doesn't know the game. We've had that enough lately with Hicks, Gillett, Parry, Purslow and Broughton.

I don't think the appointment of Rodgers' was a circus as far as the owners were concerned. The papers made it seem that way, but I can't remember anything much coming from the club themselves until it was announced at the press conference.

[mercury]

Once bitten, twice shy.  Simple.

They may well be two completely different and seperate sets of owners, but until the club starts to move in the right direction, on and off the park, there will always be a sizeable proportion of supporters who will just see the current owners as another set of financial corporate hawks.

Having had our fingers burnt once, it's not so easy to take people at their word a second time, and trust  - although not the current owners fault -  is harder earned, at the second time of asking.

My apologies for my earlier response which seems to be crypt -- not meant to be but I was exasperated and in a hurry!

I can quite well understand the sentiment.  For those of us who have gone through the last painful painful fight, the scar will always be with us.  However letting it over-colour our judgement of what's happening at the Club is a disservice to ourselves, the Club and the current owners.

The current owners have not landed the debt in our lap.  Their record at the Sox has to be respected (although we'll not so presumptuous as to think we carry the same weight in their heart).  It is unfair to use G&H as a reference in judging them.

More importantly, it provides a leeway to sidetrack.  Instead of talking about how FSG has performed, the argument turn to something pointless, it descended into "people use the H&G ownership as a reason to dislike the "American owners.", when there are real issues at stake which merit our attention, which the OP is trying to express. 

On a personal note, meself have already spoken too much on our owners -- probably my last words on the matter --  but then this summer transfer forum, alas, has looked dull compared to the sparks in FSG threads

[mercury]

Your Honor, I'd like to admit the post above me by jckliew as evidence in this case. It reads:
 
"Didnt trust H & G.
i thought FSG could be different.
Never trust a Yank bizmen.....end of. "   

The Prosecution rests, Your Honor. We ask that that you find the Defendants guilty as charged. 

Yeah, I know.  (Biting my tongue   )

Let's keep ourselves out of that and do something more sensible!

And to you, my friend, I can understand your view of FSG.  Let's put this way:  we respect FSG's record at the Sox but let's look at their record at LFC now.  18 months are quite long enough to do a evaluation, ain't it?  It only takes them 6 or 8 months to fire Comolli.

There's nothing better for FSG to come good at LFC.  Hope is one thing.  Reality is another! 

[kenworthy]

Great OP and heartfelt. I'm one of those who are willing to give FSG the benefit and a little time. I don't think we know everything about the stadium decisions and they've had to pay off whopping sums for plans left behind by H&G. That said, your OP really resonated with me and for a bloke who is a self proclaimed "boring" writer you really touched on some personal things I believe are universal truths for many of us. Bravo.

[kcbworth]

No doubt they have a lot of learning to do. Need people to give them some guidance. Need people who love the club to show them the way.

However, for some reason instead we give them our scorn. Distrust them. Assume that they're trying to damage something. Why?

They haven't done a single thing to destroy my trust. My confidence in their ability has been damaged, absolutely, but I don't doubt for a moment that they want us to be successful, and in the right way to boot.

[doikc]

How open can they be about their plans. From the beginning they have shown an admiration for the Arsenal system and Wengers ability to continue to qualify for the CL on a shoe string budget. Working with this in mind then we have spectacularly failed in every aspect according to this model. I feel fsg have not been able to transmit this vision to the previous management team. I wonder if they have been able to do better with Rogers. They have spectacularly failed to transmit this message to the fans. No one wants to hear that fourth is all that matters it runs against our traditions as a club and that's why I feel we have come to this conflict between our traditions and the business plan of fsg.

The message should be loud and clear through their actions and their staff that we need to cut costs, buy unfancied players sell everyone over 30 and qualify for the CL.

As a fan, we can see small steps being taken to reach this vision and now that the rose tinted specs are off my hope is that Rogers gets this and works towards fourth despite us now having qualified for the Europa he should remember that the league will define whether or not he keeps his job. I think that's quite clear now.

[Reds4Life]

No doubt they have a lot of learning to do. Need people to give them some guidance. Need people who love the club to show them the way.

However, for some reason instead we give them our scorn. Distrust them. Assume that they're trying to damage something. Why?

They haven't done a single thing to destroy my trust. My confidence in their ability has been damaged, absolutely, but I don't doubt for a moment that they want us to be successful, and in the right way to boot.

They haven't done a single thing to destroy your trust? That's great and whatever yardstick you are using to measure them must be particularly lenient in my opinion.

I on the other hand have watched how they have let the reputation of Liverpool Football Club come under attack and failed to take immediate steps to ensure that the reputation of Liverpool Football Club is upheld and maintained.

Unfortunately there have been various instances where the reputation of Liverpool Football Club has been tarnished whilst under FSG ownership.

I don't like the race card being played in this and other threads either. There is a subtle undercurrent of "stereotyping" for reasons unknown rising to the fore. It really denigrates from the valid points being made. Needless and diverts from the good content.

Criticism is good as long as it is constructive criticism.

We all know that FSG view Liverpool Football Club as an investment and as a result of that they want to make a return on that investment.

However, we all know people who have blindly followed this football club year upon year since the time they could remember. They have also made an investment, whether financially or emotionally, it is one that is highly subjective but just as important as the objective view FSG and countless other investment firms view it as.

And the reality is this. There needs to be a delicate balance found by all.

An ownership who regardless of PR spin actually does value the tradition, the ethos, the standing and the reputation of Liverpool Football Club. Understands what it means to support this club, what this club means to the city and what it means to its people.

Supporters come and go, just as investment firms do. We all die eventually.

However, it is the legacy that we leave for our kids and grandkids that is imperative.

And that legacy is only measured when it all boils down to it by the reputation of Liverpool Football Club.

[cgahan]

Commercially, things have continued to improve, a trend that started under G&H. Other than that, they have shown nothing to suggest that they have either the ability or the resources to back up their rhetoric. 'We're here to win', 'we're working towards winning the league' is purely lip service. It's obvious that a win for them is 4th in perpetuity.

We sold the club to compete in financial terms with biggest clubs. Are we in any better position to attract top players than we were pre 2006? We'll have the odd Collymore, Saunders, Clough. Like we always have had. But that's it.

And don't talk to me about the need to see a return on their investment. I've invested financially, emotionally and every other way for 30 years.

Support the club, not the money men. Their aspirations for the club have little overlap with our own.

[burtreynolds]

Great OP . Sums up exactly how I feel . In my darker moments I sometimes think FSG are h&g with better pr and slicker haircuts but I can see that they are not quite so loathsome. On face value however much of what they have done or failed to do would have caused uproar under h&g. They are in a charmed position because they still are regarded as white knights who saved us from oblivion but they did not invest to save us but to ring a few pennies in the greasy till .
From the moment I saw the headline "dalglish sacked by lfc" I realised how far removed I am from this thing called Liverpool

[Kovai Red]

Exactly my thoughts in the OP.
IMO, regarding the stadium issue, we'll be able to hear only when we qualify for CL regularly. They wont put their own money into stadium. They are going to aquire stadium debts whether it be a new stadium or at Anfield. We need some consistent income inorder to service the debt. If we hasten the stadium process before even arranging necessary income, we will be in a mess. That is what FSG might be thinking or maybe it is my opinion.

As far as the manager in concerned, till he has conducted himself in a good manner. Hope he gets the right support from the fans and the owners. We might need to be patient with this guy. He should be very ruthless in order to implememt his philosophy into the team.

[L666KOP]

Nice OP, it definately is a case of once bitten, and I think FSG may be suffering a touch due to that, but it doesn't help when it appears from the outside at least, that there tenure so far is akin to looking at a pinball bouncing around the table. The reluctance it would appear to strike up a dialogue with supporters groups is also worrying, especially after they said there'd be a line of contact. They should realise we'd be cautious after the last debacle, and thus far have not done a great deal to allay our fears.

[No666]

How much of the distrust that is directed at FSG is a result of their own actions? I feel that people use the H&G ownership as a reason to dislike the "American owners".

That's bollox, with all due respect. A bit like saying Roy could not have succeeded. Most of us are mature enough to judge individually rather then on their nationality, don't you know?  Furthermore, it was some of the savelfc big guns who first met John Henry (and reported with cautious enthusiasm) on the morning after the takeover. If some of those who gave most in terms of energy and leadership to fighting H&G now have concerns about FSG it has nothing to do with their shared inability to pronounce tomato. FSG were welcomed, by and large with a sigh of relief. It's with reluctance we've had to express the worries which are creeping in.

[L666KOP]

Exactly my thoughts in the OP.
IMO, regarding the stadium issue, we'll be able to hear only when we qualify for CL regularly. They wont put their own money into stadium. They are going to aquire stadium debts whether it be a new stadium or at Anfield. We need some consistent income inorder to service the debt. If we hasten the stadium process before even arranging necessary income, we will be in a mess. That is what FSG might be thinking or maybe it is my opinion.

As far as the manager in concerned, till he has conducted himself in a good manner. Hope he gets the right support from the fans and the owners. We might need to be patient with this guy. He should be very ruthless in order to implememt his philosophy into the team.

And if we take on a significant stadium debt reliant on Champions League football we'll be in a bigger mess, either we can afford it or we can't.
If we have to follow the Arsenal model, ie cutting back on player recruitment to fund it then so be it, but under no circumstances should the club sign up for anything other than servicable debt citing Champions League as a viable income stream.
What worries me most is that they'll sell the stadium naming rights up front to finance the deal, and then revamp Anfield, I have no issues 'branding' a new stadium, however I feel it would be a massive own goal to try and 'rename/brand' Anfield, but that's for another thread.

[edeyj]

I think the word "unease" is the one that springs to my mind.

The removal of H&G was a big relief and NESV were making all the right noises. However, are we any further forward under them? And, the sacking of Kenny was atrocious.

However, we are stuck with them and if they really want their "asset" to increase in value then they will have to invest. Invest in financial terms and professionally. The management structure at the club has huge holes in it just now and they really do need to address that. They need to back the new manager in the transfer market. They need to be more open about what is happening with the stadium.

I sincerely hope the uneasy feeling subsides over the next 12 months.

[rossipersiempre]

A really good OP which encapsulates a lot of the concerns over FSG's stewardship of the club rightly floating about at the current time.

Ultimately, it all boils down to scrutiny/scepticism vs. trust/faith. Given events to date, I know where I am right now...

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. "

[kcbworth]

They haven't done a single thing to destroy your trust? That's great and whatever yardstick you are using to measure them must be particularly lenient in my opinion.

I've lost optimism, faith, and confidence... but not trust.

Regarding reputation, I personally haven't seen anything to indicate anything other than that they don't hold the traditions of Liverpool FC with respect, but perhaps I'm missing something.

[JohnHobbes]

I think we all know that they're not very knowledgeable when it comes to running a football club, what they do appear to be knowledgeable about is business, and I think their plan is to recruit footballing men and leave the football to them. Personally I'm not bothered whether they keep the club at arms length. They're never going to care about the club as much as us, and therefore any pretence at such would be disingenuous, kind of like turning up on Sky in the early hours of the morning brandishing an official mug. If they want to let the club run itself with the people they appoint, then fine. I wouldn't want the guiding hand (or interference) of someone that doesn't know the game. We've had that enough lately with Hicks, Gillett, Parry, Purslow and Broughton.

I don't think the appointment of Rodgers' was a circus as far as the owners were concerned. The papers made it seem that way, but I can't remember anything much coming from the club themselves until it was announced at the press conference.

Agree with you. Your second paragraph correctly highlights that some people can't distinguish between media frenzy and actual club releases. We know the club interviewed at least two people and appointed one, the rest is just whatever the media made up from Whelan's rants, random speculation and whatever sells newspapers.

There are enough valid reasons for anyone who dislikes/distrusts them to say FSG aren't the football knowledgeable, hands on, money investing owners that they want. There is no need for anyone to tar them with a brush that is of no legitimacy.

[Grobbelrevell]

FSG has so far:

Hired and sacked a DoF whose sole achievement was to implement an anti-matter version of moneyball where we overvalue & overpay. 

Fair enough. In hindsight Comolli was a failed appointment for various reasons and I would go one step further and question their source of advise that drove his appointment. If reports are to be believed it was primarily Billy Beane - a baseball figure. There's nothing wrong in recognising a gap in your knowledge base and seeking external advice, but surely that advice should come from an expert in the field that you are working in (i.e. football)?

What I would add though, in Comolli's defence, is that he was also responsible for a number of signings who may yet prove to be very successful.

Given a manager a 3 year deal and sacked him after one following 1 cup & 2 finals. Why do that? Why not back him? If he wasn’t what they wanted, why offer him the full time job or why not have some sort of 1 year rolling deal that would allow one or other to call it quits if it wasn’t working out?

What if Kenny refused a one year rolling contract? And whilst you make a valid point in that there was a logical case to say that there were signs of progress under Kenny last season that suggested a need for patience, there was also an equally valid, logical case to be made for the opposite, which you fail to mention at all. Remove the obvious emotional element of the decision (which would not have been evident for FSG) and it's somewhat harsh in my opinion to level this as a huge negative on FSG when there were many supporters who (mutedly) felt that it was ultimately the correct decision, however painful it was to witness.

Not made any sort of decision on the stadium.  We mustn’t forget that this was the sole reason we were told we needed to sell up to the corporate world in the first place. Has whoever was put in charge of that area been sacked yet?

I agree that we could feel justified in expecting further progress on this than seems evident up to now, but at the same time it does need to be recognised that this is an absolutely monumental decision for the long term future of the club and with that in mind I think I would prefer patience to be at the forefront of a thorough process.

Where I do think criticism could rightly be levelled at FSG here is with the communication. The reason that there is so much being said about this issue is largely because of the void in communication. Noone knows what's happening or why. If the club had opened a continued dialogue with supporters and residents about the whole process then much of the confusion and speculation could have been avoided, along with much of the negativity.

Recruited a manager through a process that played out X-factor style in the press.  A long list, then a short list and apparently there was only ever one first choice anyway. It looked and sounded like a complete mess.  It still does even as it’s reinvented after the fact. 

Played out in the press? How much of that information originated from the club? Very little, if any. It was either so called 'rejections' from certain managers (which were actually nothing of the sort because they were offered nothing to reject in the first place) who were simply answering a question from a keen journalist who had put two and two together. The rest was the spawn of Dave Whelen. I'd actually argue that the club were quite controlled and respectful in how they handled the process, with it being kept behind closed doors. Essentially you're speculating here, completely.

Recruited a manager based on advice from “experts”.  Who are these experts exactly?  No one knows.  No one appears to be asking?  I’d like to know.  Instead, we’re being asked to take it on trust.

This is a huge question, admittedly, but you also state yourself - noone knows the answer, and so you're speculating again without having any fact or evidence at all to back up your criticism. Should the club be doing things 'The Liverpool Way' behind closed doors, or making public statements throughout any process to keep the world informed of what they're doing and why? I suspect that whichever option they chose they'd be in the firing line.

Recruited a manager who has 152 games in charge of a first team, one season as a manager in top flight football and whose success to date has been not getting a team relegated.  Paul Lambert did the same with Norwich and finished level on points with the mighty Swansea.  He likes Barcelona and did a super first press conference though, so that’s alright then isn’t it?

Shall we give the man a chance before we decide he's not good enough? As John Barnes pointed out, success is relative to your resources:

“Well, what is success? Is a manager guiding a team to safety – a team like Wigan, for example – less successful than Harry Redknapp guiding Tottenham to fourth or fifth? Which manager has been more successful in terms of working with what they’ve got? All you can ever do as a manager is maximise the potential for that team and if maximising the potential of that team means you finish fourth from bottom, and a team who finishes second doesn’t maximise their potential because they should have finished first, the manager of the team who has beaten relegation has had a more successful season.”

Decided that they want a continental model with a DoF, then decided not.  Not sure we’ve heard the last on this one yet mind.

Agree with this to a point because I believe that the one area where there is a geniune concern over Rodgers is his experience at this level so a strong team around him is vital in my opinion. However, the appointments have not finished yet by all accounts and there are still reports from respected sources that we're still in contact with Txiki, so perhaps we should wait and see what the final outcome is before we jump up and down with this. Whilst Rodgers highlighted his unwillingness to work with a DoF, he did also state that he expects a 'technical team' to be formed, so perhaps we will see the continental model but perhaps with differing titles.

Maybe I’m wrong about some, maybe all of this.  Maybe there’s some sort of master plan that has been taking shape all along. Maybe.

Maybe they’ll be great owners.

Maybe Brendan Rodgers will be great manager for us. 

That's a lot of maybe's. As you suggest, maybe we should actually wait and see what they actually do before criticising or praising?

One of the main defence's of Kenny last season was that it was the start of a long term process of rebuilding the side following years of turmoil and neglect. The same could be said of the club as a whole, surely?

[boots]

This sort of things is reminiscent of the trust and insecurity you feel when a girl you really love dumps you. You feel you cannot be fully open with another girl in case you get hurt again. Trouble is that this closing up forms a barrier against you forming a proper trusting relationship again. You end up in a spiral of mistrust and deeper insecurities. The reality is that sometimes you just have to face up to being hurt and stay open. Its a hard thing to do as your experiences keep clouding your better judgement but staying open is the only healthy option. Staying open is a better experience than the cynical and over analysing experience. You feel free. Yes you are more vulnerable but its honest and healthy.

Easier to type than do though.

[Red Genius]

It was always going to be tough acquiring trust, following the last cowboys who rode in. I think at the moment the owners have been reminiscent to arriving home at 3am on a Saturday night half cut kebab dripping down one arm whilst stumbling around with the other looking for the light switch in the dark.

They, for me initially spoke well and the caution they took with decision making appeared wise - seeing as though they weren't men of football. They have for me made some absolute awful decisions (although not quite as bad as tearing the club into administration!) and some good ones.

The elephant in the room for owners of our club over the past decade has been the stadium issue - i do get the impression though that there is imminent progress about to be unveiled on that front however if you believe what comes through the grape vine and the mummerings of developments with regards to the ownership of property around the direct vicinity of Anfield. One thing is certain if they were to go down the road of redeveloping Anfield, that would be a very popular decision, and more importantly for me a very correct and decisive one.

They've listened to the fans when putting Kenny in, they then for whatever reasons removed him, whatever those reasons were i think we can safely say, for them he wasn't their man or choice. So now they've got their man / men coming in that is where the first footballing judgement can be made. So i'll wait before judging on that. But i've hope.... we've  not brought in archaic individuals, rather young forward thinking ambitious ones, that's a positive for me.

Anyway's - i think the next 12months will prove decisive on their part, i'm prepared to wait that little bit longer to see how their vision develops on both the stadium and pitch.

[Met]

I've lost it all.

I hope we maul everyone we meet, I hope Rodgers his here for years and becomes a proper legend,  but I don't really have any faith in FSG. Love the team, broken by the owners.

(Bit dramatic, that last bit?)

[CarolinaKopite]

Didnt trust H & G.
i thought FSG could be different.
Never trust a Yank bizmen.....end of.

What about a Saudi, an Egyptian, Indian, Welsh?  Does it really matter what country the owners call home.  A winning team is a profitable team.  They are going to do what is necessary to put out a winning team.  Because in the end, it's about maximizing profit.  Tell me one owner in a top flight league, any, that in your own opinion isn't in it for the money.  No not just for the money, but that is a priority.

[gandalf50]

Not underestimating anyone's intelligence or implying that people here can't differentiate owners. I meant to ask, perhaps not clearly, whether the H&G ownership has changed the supporters attitude towards new owners. The whole "once bitten, twice shy" idea.

The thing is H&G bought the club with debt which was then piled onto the club accounts.
FSG bought the club and made the debt go away. But their indecision and constant changing of managers will end up building debt at the club again unless they can find some stability.
The thing I am worried about is the fact that commercial revenues are growing despite the team going into decline. If FSG see that the can generate good revenue from a mediocre team, will they then decide to stop investing in the team medium term to generate cash for a new stadium / Anfield rebuild?
To some extent Arsenal did this and, are probably still doing it, with little effect on their attendances / revenue.

[Fat Scouser]

I'd say, I'd trust John Henry as far as I could throw him. But with a fair wind behind me, I reckon I could lash him a fair aul distance.

But anyway, I don't know why all of a sudden we being told we have to trust some rich people blindly. We never did. Even in the days of Shankly and Paisley, they were just the suits in the back and they fucked us over without a second thought on plenty of occasions. Just the way it is.

Suddenly, whenever I comment on FSG, I get a load of people, who I've never even seen or spoken to before, jumping all over what I say, telling me what a shite red I am, and how I must keep schtum and support some business based in Boston. Well, I tell you what.... Fuck off and don't bother.

FSG are here to make money, nothing more, nothing less. They are the current owners of the club. They won't be when they can maximise their profits on a sale. That's it. That's all there is to it. So please don't start telling me about some bloody baseball team 3500 miles away or how LFC need to succeed on the pitch for FSG to succeed on the balance sheets. I've heard it all before. It's all hogwash. I can't be arsed going through it again. FSG are the owners. They're not as bad as some. We know that. But what good are they... we'll have to wait and see. But until that time I won't be waving me half n half LFC and FSG scarf.

[rola]

That's a lot of maybe's. As you suggest, maybe we should actually wait and see what they actually do before criticising or praising?

One of the main defence's of Kenny last season was that it was the start of a long term process of rebuilding the side following years of turmoil and neglect. The same could be said of the club as a whole, surely?

Thanks for the considered reply/critique.  You're right - a balanced, non-judgemental, reasonable, fair minded approach is what is needed.  I read your article on the subject of FSG and their tenure - I'd recommend everyone who hasn't yet has a read - well worth the time and good to get such an objective view point.  If I knew how to pit in a link to it I would.

My problem is that I find it difficult to be balanced, reasonable or fair minded when it comes to things that I'm passionate and care about.  My post was written form a personal perspective and I'll be the first to admit that it's full of flaws and inconsistencies when subjected to any sort of rational analysis.

I suppose I was trying to highlight how the connection I had with the club was much stronger than it is now and that was because of the people, their values, how they behaved and what they did.  Right now, I feel as though I'm being asked to give the new owners and manager the same level of trust.  I can't do that.  Not yet anyway.  They haven't earned it yet.

There's also an element of feeling like my chain is being yanked (no pun intended).  The PR machine went into overdrive with the Rodgers appointment. He handled the press conference superbly.  Very impressive.  Then there was the avalanche of quotes from interviews and articles about his philosophy, approach and what he was going to do to impose his brand of football.  He needed four players, it would take time to achieve...

Hold on a minute, the fella doesn't even know where the bogs are, but he reckons he knows how many players he needs? It's just a bit too cocksure for me. Photo ops next to Shankly pics, Brendan with a mug of tea...man of the people stuff.  Striking stuff, but it rubs me up the wrong way.  Sorry, that's just me. Like I said, I can feel me chain being yanked, and that usually causes me to pull back on it a bit. 

Look, I've got nothing against Rodgers personally.  I know very little about him other than what I've read & heard.  He seems an enthusiastic fella who has worked hard, travelled widely to learn about being a coach. He did well at Swansea.  I wish him all the very best of luck and will support him and his team every step of the way. I hope he is a massive success here and proves to be an astute and inspired choice by the owners.  I hope the owners honour whatever agreement they have made with him and back him the full.  I hope he is able to live up to all the statements he has made and earns the adulation of the Kop.     
   

[Vulmea]

Fair enough.

have to admire you consistency if nothing else Grob.

"In hindsight Comolli was a failed appointment for various reasons and I would go one step further and question their source of advise that drove his appointment. If reports are to be believed it was primarily Billy Beane - a baseball figure. There's nothing wrong in recognising a gap in your knowledge base and seeking external advice, but surely that advice should come from an expert in the field that you are working in (i.e. football)?"
So a poor decision – naive and lacking knowledge?

"What if Kenny refused a one year rolling contract? And whilst you make a valid point in that there was a logical case to say that there were signs of progress under Kenny last season that suggested a need for patience, there was also an equally valid, logical case to be made for the opposite, which you fail to mention at all. Remove the obvious emotional element of the decision (which would not have been evident for FSG) and it's somewhat harsh in my opinion to level this as a huge negative on FSG when there were many supporters who (mutedly) felt that it was ultimately the correct decision, however painful it was to witness."

So you speculate that Dalglish refused – there is no evidence for this but if he had refused what would the reason be? Maybe he recognised that it takes time to build a side. FSG are now saying Rodgers will need time but were not prepared to give Dalglish the time they agreed just months before. How is this good enough?

Remove the emotional element – why should Rodgers be afforded more time than Dalglish?

Again it shows a lack of knowledge, indecisiveness, back tracking on a decision.

The general belief is they did not want Dalglish but they had no choice because his legacy would have hovered over any new manager. FSG as late as March were still saying Dalglish has our full support when it was already clear he didn’t. In the summer if they genuinely did not believe in him and his ‘image’ they should have moved Kenny upstairs into an ambassadorial/DoF style role, they should have asked him to support the appointment of the kind of manager they wanted. Ok maybe Dalglish would not have accepted but if that is the case you deal with it you don’t fudge it and go into the season half hearted.

Naive and lacking knowledge yet again.

"Played out in the press? How much of that information originated from the club? Very little, if any. It was either so called 'rejections' from certain managers (which were actually nothing of the sort because they were offered nothing to reject in the first place) who were simply answering a question from a keen journalist who had put two and two together. The rest was the spawn of Dave Whelen. I'd actually argue that the club were quite controlled and respectful in how they handled the process, with it being kept behind closed doors. Essentially you're speculating here, completely. "

Not sure if you arrre delibberately missing the point here. The process was the problem.

Like it or not it was a media circus. It comes with the territory. We had a process akin to selecting an advertising exec. Football is more akin to headhunting – you find the man you want discretely and you go get them, that’s how it’s done, that’s how it’s done behind closed doors. Why if the process is appropriate did Rodgers refuse to take part? Why if it’s appropriate did  we select somebody who did not take part in the process?
The media got to play their games because of the process we tried to employ.
Naive and lacking knowledge yet again.

This is a huge question, admittedly, but you also state yourself - noone knows the answer, and so you're speculating again without having any fact or evidence at all to back up your criticism. Should the club be doing things 'The Liverpool Way' behind closed doors, or making public statements throughout any process to keep the world informed of what they're doing and why? I suspect that whichever option they chose they'd be in the firing line.

FSG are in a position where they have shown themselves naive and lacking knowledge. They need credibility. They claim to have expert advice. They claim they are setting up a structure based on expert advice. Then they ignore the advice and the manager states in his first press conference he won’t work with a DoF.

The obvious conclusion is they have spoken with several people who have provided informal advice to the owners but it is the owners themselves drawing conclusions. They are trying to learn the game. They had the right idea first time around when they appointed Comolli they just picked the wrong guy. The really odd thing is they have Dalglish sitting there and they’ve ignored him. They have Rafa sitting there and they’ve ignored him. Both men would provide trusted advice both men have 40 years of know how compared to FSG’s 20 months – not only that but a lot of FSG’s own experience is wrong. This is shown with the selection process. Let’s not forget if Rodgers is successful its despite the selection process he did not take part in. 

Inconsistent, naive and lacking knowledge yet again.

Shall we give the man a chance before we decide he's not good enough? As John Barnes pointed out, success is relative to your resources:

“Well, what is success? Is a manager guiding a team to safety – a team like Wigan, for example – less successful than Harry Redknapp guiding Tottenham to fourth or fifth? Which manager has been more successful in terms of working with what they’ve got? All you can ever do as a manager is maximise the potential for that team and if maximising the potential of that team means you finish fourth from bottom, and a team who finishes second doesn’t maximise their potential because they should have finished first, the manager of the team who has beaten relegation has had a more successful season.”

Nobody is saying Rodgers will not get a chance. However to assume ‘success’ in managing a small team to avoid relegation and a big team winning a title are that relevant is once again naive and lacks know how – they are different skill sets. Its why Rijkaard can have a team relegated in the dutch eredvisie and then take over at Barca and win the CL, its why Guardiola  can step up from Barca's stiffs and win the CL. Its why Hodgson failed so miserably at Liverpool. 

I dont even think the majority are saying FSG wont get a chance. Its just so far FSG aint been good enough. They need to get better and build a relationship that's if they actually want trust. They'll need better fan communication, consistency of approach and a certain openess to build the trust that allows them to eventually just get on with things behind closed doors.

[Greebo62]

I'd say, I'd trust John Henry as far as I could throw him. But with a fair wind behind me, I reckon I could lash him a fair aul distance.

But anyway, I don't know why all of a sudden we being told we have to trust some rich people blindly. We never did. Even in the days of Shankly and Paisley, they were just the suits in the back and they fucked us over without a second thought on plenty of occasions. Just the way it is.

Suddenly, whenever I comment on FSG, I get a load of people, who I've never even seen or spoken to before, jumping all over what I say, telling me what a shite red I am, and how I must keep schtum and support some business based in Boston. Well, I tell you what.... Fuck off and don't bother.

FSG are here to make money, nothing more, nothing less. They are the current owners of the club. They won't be when they can maximise their profits on a sale. That's it. That's all there is to it. So please don't start telling me about some bloody baseball team 3500 miles away or how LFC need to succeed on the pitch for FSG to succeed on the balance sheets. I've heard it all before. It's all hogwash. I can't be arsed going through it again. FSG are the owners. They're not as bad as some. We know that. But what good are they... we'll have to wait and see. But until that time I won't be waving me half n half LFC and FSG scarf.

Succinct and put in your inimitable style FS.  And you say that you can't write...

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, I guess what most people want, is not necessarily a sugar daddy, but a set of well off responsible owners who "get" the club, just as most of our legends are from elsewhere, we hope that they too will feel that emotional bond with the club that we do.

I'm kind of between the two camps.  Like you I realise that they're here to make a profit.  Nevertheless, I also hope they realise just what a special club they have here.

YNWA

[Fat Scouser]

Succinct and put in your inimitable style FS.  And you say that you can't write...

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, I guess what most people want, is not necessarily a sugar daddy, but a set of well off responsible owners who "get" the club, just as most of our legends are from elsewhere, we hope that they too will feel that emotional bond with the club that we do.

I'm kind of between the two camps.  Like you I realise that they're here to make a profit.  Nevertheless, I also hope they realise just what a special club they have here.

YNWA

They didn't even know who we were until they decided to buy us. I reckon they found out there was a firesale going on in some place where the Beatles came from in the financial papers and grapevine. When they realised what a world wide brand their competitors in America where about to lose, they put in the 2nd highest bid for it. It was just like buying Weetabix, but they got it on the cheap.

This new thing about supporting owners is beyond me. I couldn't give a fuck about FSG. I'm not even slagging them above others of their ilk. I'm saying it like it is... they are investment capitalists. They will want a maximum return on their investment when they eventually move on, which they will, without a doubt. That's just how it is now.

I got educated by Shankly's socialism and dockers on the kop. I'm now being bollocked by people that claim to support LFC for not supporting hedge fund managers from Boston. If I'd have been told that just a few short years back, I'd have never believed it. But it's true. Football has moved on, and it's all the worse for it.

I know it's a global entertainment industry now. In fact, it's the perfect symbol of what wrecked the world's economy and left millions of people skint while a handful of rich bankers made mega money. I'm not a fan.

[geoffstrong]

I judge people on what they do and not on what they say they will do, so for me what they have done is like a curates egg some good, but also a lot bad, naive, in the end they will look after themselves only leech what they can sell at a profit and forget us like any other owner in it for the bucks, FS as for they didn't know us , that's a given they saw a cut rate investment and wanted to maximise it , no attachment to club or it's fans required!