Author Topic: Captain Hero for Year Zero? (Read 22339 times)

Wirral1 · « **Reply #360 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:16:48 PM »

Quote from: Nessy76 on June 19, 2012, 07:14:52 PM

Seems like your entire reason for living is to slag off great players, thought I'd give it a try.

Still don't see what you see in it.

And you still haven't come up with another holding player in the squad who could cover for Lucas as effectively as Gerrard, however much you change the subject.

I gave you three names.....three players who, when they played CM, got more points than we got when Gerrard played there......thats what I see in it.

Maybe if you were a Liverpool supporter rather than a Gerrard supporter, you would notice such things.

Nessy76 · « **Reply #361 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:17:35 PM »

Quote from: Wirral1 on June 19, 2012, 07:16:48 PM

I gave you three names.....three players who, when they played CM, got more points than we got when Gerrard played there......thats what I see in it.

And none of them are holding players, which tells me you know sod all about the game.

Wirral1 · « **Reply #362 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:21:43 PM »

Quote from: Nessy76 on June 19, 2012, 07:17:35 PM

And none of them are holding players, which tells me you know sod all about the game.

'holding player' is simply a term. Anyone who can play CM...and be defensively effective can be a 'holding player'.
I wish the sky generation would stop thinking football was invented 15 years ago.

TALBERT · « **Reply #363 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:22:43 PM »

Pepe Reina

Daniel Agger

Remember when Rafa was building a team of captains

andspecks · « **Reply #364 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:37:02 PM »

Quote from: Carlos Qiqabal on June 19, 2012, 07:09:01 PM

According to who?

According to anybody's who has ever worked with him. Find me one person who has worked with Gerrard that said anything negative about him. You won't be able to. As much as you'd love to believe that rumour since it makes Lucas look better and Gerrard look worse, there isn't a single chance it's true.

Semi Skimmed · « **Reply #365 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:48:17 PM »

Quote from: Wirral1 on June 19, 2012, 07:16:48 PM

Maybe if you were a Liverpool supporter rather than a Gerrard supporter, you would notice such things.

You seem to wheel this out ever time someone tries to engage you as to why you have an obvious dislike for the lad.

It doesn't make you sound like the 'top red' you think it does you know, it makes you sound like someone desperately scrabbling for reasons to mask your plain and bizzare hatred for one of our greatest ever players.

Saddens me to see people so twisted by their own agendas, that they effectively call fellow reds lesser fans. Cos that is what you're doing.

carling · « **Reply #366 on:** June 19, 2012, 08:55:55 PM »

Third world class assist from Gerrard in 3 games. Leading by example yet again. Not just by talent but by work rate too.

He's a player everyone can look up to and draw inspiration from. Couldn't want for a better captain.

Frizzo · « **Reply #367 on:** June 19, 2012, 08:57:45 PM »

Anyone watching the one man show against Ukraine?

Frizzo · « **Reply #368 on:** June 19, 2012, 09:00:56 PM »

Quote from: carling on June 19, 2012, 08:55:55 PM

Third world class assist from Gerrard in 3 games. Leading by example yet again. Not just by talent but by work rate too.

He's a player everyone can look up to and draw inspiration from. Couldn't want for a better captain.

You're not suggesting he's fulfilling his defensive responsibilities as well are you?

I thought he was incapable...

carling · « **Reply #369 on:** June 19, 2012, 09:20:46 PM »

Quote from: Frizzo on June 19, 2012, 09:00:56 PM

You're not suggesting he's fulfilling his defensive responsibilities as well are you?

I thought he was incapable...

More than fulfilling them. Must be shit for any player he is marking at the moment he's not giving them space to breathe. Obvious one being the Ukraine player he hounded until he wimped out and booted it away (giving England possession).

Few really crunching tackles as well. Must be doing wonders for the England team's spirits.

Please to god say he gets no more bad luck with injuries. Got a great feeling he is in for a huge season.

Frizzo · « **Reply #370 on:** June 19, 2012, 09:24:31 PM »

Agreed. If he can keep anywhere near this form domestically this season we could really achieve something.

TSC · « **Reply #371 on:** June 19, 2012, 09:41:23 PM »

Plebs have fucked off out of this thread for the time being I see, surprise surprise.

TSC · « **Reply #372 on:** June 19, 2012, 09:42:53 PM »

Quote from: Carlos Qiqabal on June 19, 2012, 02:43:13 PM

I read a rumour on here that it was Rafa showing Gerrard a DVD of Lucas and asking him to play more like that which broke the camel's back and led to him storming out.

Missed this gem. Where to start eh. In fact I won't bother

Frizzo · « **Reply #373 on:** June 19, 2012, 09:54:46 PM »

Quote from: TSC on June 19, 2012, 09:42:53 PM

Missed this gem. Where to start eh. In fact I won't bother

I didn't know what to say either.

Just...yeah...

I don't know.

lfc786 · « **Reply #374 on:** June 19, 2012, 10:00:29 PM »

Quote from: Frizzo on June 19, 2012, 08:57:45 PM

Anyone watching the one man show against Ukraine?

LF · « **Reply #375 on:** June 19, 2012, 10:10:07 PM »

Quote from: TSC on June 19, 2012, 09:42:53 PM

Missed this gem. Where to start eh. In fact I won't bother

ps - good idea

mb1111 · « **Reply #376 on:** June 19, 2012, 10:14:20 PM »

Amazing that theres still a huge group of idiots who'll say he cant play central midfield. He's brilliant there, prefer him behind a striker by all means but this lad is and has always been utter class in CM.

-Q- · « **Reply #377 on:** June 19, 2012, 10:19:09 PM »

Quote from: Carlos Qiqabal on June 19, 2012, 02:43:13 PM

The comparison with Lucas is really interesting - Gerrard's style as captain fits in more with a blood-and-thunder high pace counter-attacking team whereas Lucas's play is better for a high pressing, patient possession based side. I read a rumour on here that it was Rafa showing Gerrard a DVD of Lucas and asking him to play more like that which broke the camel's back and led to him storming out.

Aren't you ashamed to spread malicious rumours to support your agenda against our players? It's just pathetic and ridiculous.

Quote from: Wirral1 on June 19, 2012, 06:55:00 PM

Adam, Spearing, Henderson were available...even Agger, who has enough ability, coupled with his defensive knowledge to play this role.

The 'no-one else available' idea is only true if you believe that Gerrard is better than all of those players as a CM (not as a player but just as CM). This is not sustainable when you look at his career. Benitez didn't trust him in CM, so played him behind the front man....Houllier often played him out on the right.

The two recent liverpool managers who played him in CM were both sacked within the same 18 months....for bad results.

I think Adam/Spearing operated better in CM than Adam/Gerrard or Spearing/Gerrard.

Gerrard's managers do the real work... and you troll online forums with nonsense like this, each according to their knowledge and abilities.

carling · « **Reply #378 on:** June 19, 2012, 10:48:50 PM »

In fact I'm not sure Stevie should start in the quarter final. I mean fair enough he's been England's best player and made match-winning contributions in every group game. But has anyone checked his win ratio over an arbitrary amount of time?

Samee · « **Reply #379 on:** June 19, 2012, 11:05:28 PM »

Wirral1 is worse than A@A.

The 5th Benitle · « **Reply #380 on:** June 19, 2012, 11:21:02 PM »

Its only England but I'm quite excited that Stevie has finally grown up and realised what to do in a deep lying midfield role. If he translates that to the club he's added 2 years to his career. Great stuff. Big if mind.

Samee · « **Reply #381 on:** June 19, 2012, 11:22:46 PM »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on June 19, 2012, 11:21:02 PM

Its only England but I'm quite excited that Stevie has finally grown up and realised what to do in a deep lying midfield role. If he translates that to the club he's added 2 years to his career. Great stuff. Big if mind.

He'll play beyond 34 I reckon.

stonty · « **Reply #382 on:** June 19, 2012, 11:28:01 PM »

Quote from: carling on June 19, 2012, 10:48:50 PM

In fact I'm not sure Stevie should start in the quarter final. I mean fair enough he's been England's best player and made match-winning contributions in every group game. But has anyone checked his win ratio over an arbitrary amount of time?

Most excellent

Frizzo · « **Reply #383 on:** June 19, 2012, 11:54:32 PM »

Quote from: carling on June 19, 2012, 10:48:50 PM

In fact I'm not sure Stevie should start in the quarter final. I mean fair enough he's been England's best player and made match-winning contributions in every group game. But has anyone checked his win ratio over an arbitrary amount of time?

Brad Jones is better than Stevie could ever hope to be with his point per game ratio!!!

vivabobbygraham · « **Reply #384 on:** June 20, 2012, 12:12:33 AM »

Quote from: carling on June 19, 2012, 10:48:50 PM

In fact I'm not sure Stevie should start in the quarter final. I mean fair enough he's been England's best player and made match-winning contributions in every group game. But has anyone checked his win ratio over an arbitrary amount of time?

Yeah, give Parker the armband, he fits better into Hodgson's rigid 4-4-2. He can play the Gerrard role easy, I mean what does Gerrard do that Scotty can't?

Nessy76 · « **Reply #385 on:** June 20, 2012, 12:39:24 AM »

Quote from: Wirral1 on June 19, 2012, 07:21:43 PM

'holding player' is simply a term.

Yes, it's a term that describes a player's role in the team. It's a role that applies to Lucas, but not to any of the players you listed. Especially not Agger. He's a defender.

Oh, that's simply a term too, is it?

Quote

Anyone who can play CM...and be defensively effective can be a 'holding player'.

So "defensively effective" isn't just a term, then? (It's a particularly horrible term, where did you drag that one up from?) And it's wrong. None of the players you mention are holding players, whether you put it in quotes or not. Especially Agger. He's a defender you know.

Quote

I wish the sky generation would stop thinking football was invented 15 years ago.

And I wish all you old farts would sod off with your "jumpers for goalposts and oranges at half time" rubbish.
It's easy this "generalising without making any coherent attempt to demonstrate my point" business, isn't it?

Vidocq · « **Reply #386 on:** June 20, 2012, 04:32:24 AM »

Quote from: The 5th Benitle on June 19, 2012, 04:20:29 PM

Mourinho shits all over Sacchi? I seriously need to explain why I disagree with that so strongly?

i dont want to turn this into sacchi vs mourinho, because i dont care if you think sacchi was/is better...thats your opinion

mourinho wanted gerrard when he was at chelsea, inter and when he signed for madrid...if stevie isnt a good player like sacchi said, i dont think someone like mourinho would try three times to bring him

Vidocq · « **Reply #387 on:** June 20, 2012, 05:24:12 AM »

Quote from: Wirral1 on June 19, 2012, 07:08:45 PM

That would be the Mourinho that Benitez took apart tactically in their European cup games....the same Benitez who said that Sacchi was the main influence on his style of play.......

that Benitez who rated Gerrard very highly?

Saint Kopite™ · « **Reply #388 on:** June 20, 2012, 05:34:09 AM »

Quote

“In situations like that, I just have to say, Gerrard’s a great footballer, but perhaps not a great player.” - Arrigo Sacchi.

What exactly is a great "player"?

Really interested to know.

danwarb · « **Reply #389 on:** June 20, 2012, 05:47:21 AM »

Quote from: Vidocq on June 20, 2012, 04:32:24 AM

i dont want to turn this into sacchi vs mourinho, because i dont care if you think sacchi is better...thats your opinion

mourinho wanted gerrard when he was at chelsea, inter and when he signed for madrid...if stevie isnt a good footballer like sacchi said, i dont think someone like mourinho would try three times to bring him

Madrid wanted Gerrard when Sacchi was their DoF, and he never said Gerrard wasn't a good footballer. Gerrard's had an awkward period with injuries over recent season but looks at the moment like he's past them. We have Rafa talking up his quality, saying that Hodgson's right to play Gerrard deeper for England, that he's their best player to pass/switch the play quickly. His teammates and managers always speak very highly of him, including Lucas, younger and past players. Kenny was singing his praises recently too. Seems like a decent lad actually.

Wirral1 looks to be basing his argument on 12 league starts last season, and just win% over such a small number of games with so many other variables. Pretty daft.

Gerrard's looking very good at present.

greytop11 · « **Reply #390 on:** June 20, 2012, 07:46:52 AM »

I honestly can't believe some of the shite written on here! We all have our favourite players but lets not "slag off" anyone who isn't YOUR fave.

We're all in this together

BarryCrocker · « **Reply #391 on:** June 20, 2012, 08:45:08 AM »

Well past it.

No.11 that is.

steveeastend · « **Reply #392 on:** June 20, 2012, 09:25:30 AM »

Quote from: Vidocq on June 20, 2012, 05:24:12 AM

that Benitez who rated Gerrard very highly?

That Benitez who always played Gerrard within a strict tactical concept and almost never without protection behind him? Because he thought he would be better further up the pitch? Istanbul in the second half as probably the best example?

Quote from: Saint Kopite™ on June 20, 2012, 05:34:09 AM

What exactly is a great "player"?

Really interested to know.

In this context he meant that there is a difference between the individual football qualities of a player, "being a great footballer" and the qualities for being part of a team as a unit, especially the movement off the ball, "as a player".

This debate doesn´t make any sense as Sacchi for sure didn´t intent to be criticial here.

Bottom line you need both nowadays. A player has to have both, it´s not enough to offer outstanding skills only, you have to constantly work for the entire 90 minutes, constantly offering the right positioning and movement off the ball for the team as well.

To me the question isn´t if Gerrard could do that, although I don´t think he could for an entire season/90 PL minutes. The question is why waste him there?

carling · « **Reply #393 on:** June 20, 2012, 09:33:07 AM »

Quote from: BarryCrocker on June 20, 2012, 08:45:08 AM

Well past it.

No.11 that is.

Haha love how the guy gets owned that badly he just collapses.

scared_person · « **Reply #394 on:** June 20, 2012, 09:54:23 AM »

Great to see him playing so well and fulfilling the captain's role, even if it is only England. I'll be gutted when he inevitably gets injured playing for Terry & Co and misses pre season.

-Q- · « **Reply #395 on:** June 20, 2012, 10:05:41 AM »

Quote from: Samee on June 19, 2012, 11:05:28 PM

Wirral1 is worse than A@A.

I think they are the same (person)

robgomm · « **Reply #396 on:** June 20, 2012, 10:18:15 AM »

Gerrard's three performances from central midfield have been excellent. Disciplined, composed and an example of leadership. He looked ropey to me at times last season, looking tired and short of form. Now he looks a tower. Very impressed.

Mother.F · « **Reply #397 on:** June 20, 2012, 10:21:02 AM »

Bizarre thread.

Reading the OP makes me feel like I'm being abused with pyramid selling PR doublespeak. Although to be fair, that's been quite common on RAWK recently.

There's absolutely no reason to take the armband away from anybody, and even if Gerrard and Carragher both retired tomorrow, Lucas would still be 3rd choice at best.

On top of that, these 'bold, innovative, whatever' owners that you like the taste of so much, probably have quite a few million reasons to keep a big name star like Stevie G™© around. Beyond the pitch, he's the Face of the Franchise. We're constantly told about football's push into Asia, but it's obvious our owners have the U.S. firmly in their sights as well, and it's not too difficult to understand why Gerrard, more than anyone else, will be the star of that campaign.

-Q- · « **Reply #398 on:** June 20, 2012, 10:21:31 AM »

Quote from: steveeastend on June 20, 2012, 09:25:30 AM

That Benitez who always played Gerrard within a strict tactical concept and almost never without protection behind him? Because he thought he would be better further up the pitch? Istanbul in the second half as probably the best example?

Benitez + last year squad = ? (yes I know Benitez would have diferent team, but had he replaced Kenny let's say in December and was unable to make changes in January)

Benitez + England team as it is now = ?

I simply find it weird when people say a certain player should play certain way without considering changes . Yes another manager in diferent times with much superior squad played Gerrard in a diferent way, but that does not mean much when the situation changes. Alonso, Gerrard, Torres were amazing together, but that is in the past. Let's move on and wait and see what our new manager has in mind.

robgomm · « **Reply #399 on:** June 20, 2012, 10:28:58 AM »

Quote from: -Q- on June 20, 2012, 10:21:31 AM

Benitez + last year squad = ? (yes I know Benitez would have diferent team, but had he replaced Kenny let's say in December and was unable to make changes in January)

Benitez + England team as it is now = ?

I simply find it weird when people say a certain player should play certain way without considering changes . Yes another manager in diferent times with much superior squad played Gerrard in a diferent way, but that does not mean much when the situation changes. Alonso, Gerrard, Torres were amazing together, but that is in the past. Let's move on and wait and see what our new manager has in mind.

Excellent post.