Topic: Bridging the Gap to a Structured Playmaking Style

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

I am absolutely delighted to read this from Rodgers and I couldnīt agree more with every single word heīs been saying here. I just hope he will make no compromises in order to implement what he is after and that he will get the full backing of the board and the people at the club when the going gets tough in the dressing room.


For me, the first big question will be if itīs possible to play pressing over the entire 90 minutes of a game with having to play two games a week.

Itīs one of those things being different at a big club that there is little to no time for regeneration, more pressure on winning every game (Swansea still finished behind us) so the question will be how he wants us to press and will the players being able to keep the ball if we won it back.

Big questions IMO cause it will determine the difference on the tactical framework and the demandings for the players in terms of fitness.

Dortmund vs Barca? Both of them successfully play pressing but in a very different way... Which way in terms of pressing will we go?

I think you'll find that you don't need to press for 90 minutes of a game unless you have zero possession. The longer you have the ball, the less you have to press, meaning you can work like a dog when you lose it, if you retain the ball well on the whole.

On a very basic level, a 50-50 split in possession means 45 minutes without the ball, obviously excluding set-pieces etc. However, if you get 60% of the ball in a 90-minute game, you have the ball for 54 minutes. Meaning you then have to press for 36 minutes.

[rickythered]

Swansea where a joy to watch but lacked a real cutting edge. I really have this fear that we will return to the Evans era of passing for passing's sake with hardly any quality end product.

[JohnHobbes]

Swansea where a joy to watch but lacked a real cutting edge. I really have this fear that we will return to the Evans era of passing for passing's sake with hardly any quality end product.

It's not as if we had any last year either was it? With this framework in play, we control the ball and create chances by wearing them down and pulling them out of position. This allows for chances to be created from better areas on the pitch (zone 14), i.e. ones of higher scoring probability. The more we do this the higher the confidence, the better overall play and likelihood of converting. It doesn't always work but it's better than lots of hopeful crosses into the box...

[lankyguy007]

Organised pressing. Not x defensive players and x attacking players, but players responsible for a zone in relation to the rest of the team, and passing over responsibility as the ball moves around, with the team changing shape as the situation changes. It's not enough to play well, you also need to economise on energy whilst playing well, thus leaving a bit in reserve at the end of a game or a season when the opposition are running out.

[JohnHobbes]

I think you'll find that you don't need to press for 90 minutes of a game unless you have zero possession. The longer you have the ball, the less you have to press, meaning you can work like a dog when you lose it, if you retain the ball well on the whole.

On a very basic level, a 50-50 split in possession means 45 minutes without the ball, obviously excluding set-pieces etc. However, if you get 60% of the ball in a 90-minute game, you have the ball for 54 minutes. Meaning you then have to press for 36 minutes.

Also, the system is the star in Rodgers model. If you have to play 45 games a season then little changes of the cogs, a.k.a squad rotation, is required. Nearer 60 then much more is done.

The more we control the more we shift the tiredness to the opposition, Barca's squad is tiny but the key players can play nearly all games. They get rotated as required though.

[No666]

The idea is that you're not sapping your energy in the implementation of your pressing because you retain possession to such an extent that you are fresh while the opposition is drained. We will obviously have to transition there but the radio press conference suggests he'll look to do it as speedily as the squad allows. He already has ideas about where he wants to strengthen/ship out.

[Sangria]

Swansea where a joy to watch but lacked a real cutting edge. I really have this fear that we will return to the Evans era of passing for passing's sake with hardly any quality end product.

And we'll do better once we give up looking only at those all important English qualities, pace and power, and start looking at other qualities like geometry and timing. Look at the interplay last preseason of Aquilani and Insua, and you'll see a type of play that will cut open teams more often than not. But we got rid of both, and there are those who will to this day insist that they're shit and won't accept they have any positives.

[rickythered]

I will absolutely love it if our new manager get's it right, his philosophy is the way the game should be played IMO. Rafa was nearly there and Hodgson managed to dismantle Rafa's system in a few short month's. beautiful total football, in the Barcelona mould back at Anfield.

[steveeastend]

I think you'll find that you don't need to press for 90 minutes of a game unless you have zero possession. The longer you have the ball, the less you have to press, meaning you can work like a dog when you lose it, if you retain the ball well on the whole.

On a very basic level, a 50-50 split in possession means 45 minutes without the ball, obviously excluding set-pieces etc. However, if you get 60% of the ball in a 90-minute game, you have the ball for 54 minutes. Meaning you then have to press for 36 minutes.

Interesting observation. The big difference between Dortmund vs Barca is exactly here to be found.

Dortmund plays very direct right after winning back the ball. For that, itīs a VERY intense way of playing and the reason why Klopp pretty much only signs players with outstanding physical abilities. They HAVE to be able to run two miles more on full speed than the other team on an average, stated by Klopp himself as his philsophy of play which fit right into the pocket of Dortmund having to sign pretty much young players only cause they had little to no money to spend when Klopp started out. I think itīs the closest to what I think of an "moneyball-approach" in football so far.

In contrast Barca would be playing the way you were describing in your first sentence.  By being able to keep possession for the majority of the game, waiting for the right chance by passing the ball around patiently, the emphasis on the recruitment of the players is different. They pretty much only sign player with outstanding technical abilities in order to stay calm under pressure, heads up all the time in order to pass the ball and move themselves in a very strict system which demand outstanding talent in order to concentrate on the movement and passing under pressure only. We could witness how Mascherano had a hard time to get into the first eleven as his technical abilities are not good enough in order to fit in their way of play. The risk of playing him in midfield was just too big, so they moved him to center back.

By the way, 36 minutes of pressing is a very long time, you wonīt find too many players in our squad able to do so over the period of an entire season

[steveeastend]

Organised pressing. Not x defensive players and x attacking players, but players responsible for a zone in relation to the rest of the team, and passing over responsibility as the ball moves around, with the team changing shape as the situation changes. It's not enough to play well, you also need to economise on energy whilst playing well, thus leaving a bit in reserve at the end of a game or a season when the opposition are running out.

I would agree that this is an approach which would be working as we are lacking the pysical power of Dortmund (our aging squad) and the technical abilities of Barcas squad.

I am no sure though if players like Downing, Enrique, Adam for an example will be able to concentrate on these aspects of the game AND being able to pass the ball long enough to rest while sensing the right moment for playing an attack without being overburdoned. Itīa matter of talent and the way the players have been brought up. If itīs all new, only the most talented ones will be able to make it happen I think.

[steveeastend]

... Barca's squad is tiny but the key players can play nearly all games. They get rotated as required though.

Thatīs a very brave comparison

I think it doesnīt work when looking at Barcas squad compared to ours at the moment.

[JohnHobbes]

Thatīs a very brave comparison

I think it doesnīt work when looking at Barcas squad compared to ours at the moment.

And you certainly shouldn't take it as I was comparing... they have no Stevie G!

I was just trying to counter the point that the new style and extra games in the EL would be incompatible due to fatigue. The new style should improve our chances if it is played right and a small squad like Barca's was proof of that concept if executed right. As long as our players can keep the ball and force the opposition to make the running then tiredness shouldn't be an issue.

[Kasper]

I agree with the player assessments given by RoyHendo above. For me, Carra has to go and Stevie G wil lneed to change his game or go back to the positions Rafa played him in to accomodate him.

I'd love to see Gerrard as one of the inside forwards, interchanging freely with Suarez as the other one - and Carrol as the target man laying the ball off and giving the central defenders a hard time. I firmly believe that Gerrard is utilized best when he can be more direct, attacking and doesn't have to be too disciplined - and especially when he can find space behind the striker and get some shots off. With a bit of luck (and willingness) I think he could mimic the success a player like Cristiano Ronaldo has had coming in the from the wing as an inside forward.

I'd set up like this. My personal hope is that Aquilani will come back and get a chance as the playmaker - so I put him in the middle with Henderson. But it's mainly to illustrate the kind of player I'd like to see there.

[Suareznumber7]

I'd love to see Gerrard as one of the inside forwards, interchanging freely with Suarez as the other one - and Carrol as the target man laying the ball off and giving the central defenders a hard time. I firmly believe that Gerrard is utilized best when he can be more direct, attacking and doesn't have to be too disciplined - and especially when he can find space behind the striker and get some shots off. With a bit of luck (and willingness) I think he could mimic the success a player like Cristiano Ronaldo has had coming in the from the wing as an inside forward.

I'd set up like this. My personal hope is that Aquilani will come back and get a chance as the playmaker - so I put him in the middle with Henderson. But it's mainly to illustrate the kind of player I'd like to see there.

I'd prefer to see Gerrard played where you have Henderson and then for us to bring in some real quality for that right inside forward position.  Someone in the mold of an Afellay or a Ramirez type player. 

[DanA]

I'd prefer to see Gerrard played where you have Henderson and then for us to bring in some real quality for that right inside forward position.  Someone in the mold of an Afellay or a Ramirez type player. 

I'd want all of the above. Gerrard to spend time between central mid and as a wide forward. I also want another option.

[lachesis]

From the OPTA stats Rodgers doesn't seem to like his forwards pressing too much near the opposition box. He seems to prefer the ball being played into the midfield, tightening it and then winning the duel there. Possibly because heavy pressing takes less energy from a number of players than a fewer number of players - this in turn conserves the attackers energy levels for when they are needed most?

[lankyguy007]

From the OPTA stats Rodgers doesn't seem to like his forwards pressing too much near the opposition box. He seems to prefer the ball being played into the midfield, tightening it and then winning the duel there. Possibly because heavy pressing takes less energy from a number of players than a fewer number of players - this in turn conserves the attackers energy levels for when they are needed most?

Yeah a lot of the 'legendary' pressing teams pressed mainly in the middle third, the most notable example being Sacchi's Milan. It varies of course but pressing is to be done as a team and the key is knowing when to press with intensity and knowing when to drop off. If you press aggressively near the opposition box, it can mean that players get enticed forward and end up leaving too much space between the lines and behind the defenders. If you don't have the balance and co-ordination as a team then you'll be easy to break down. If you press mainly in the middle third, it allows you to be more compact as a team.

[soxfan]

Some great reading in this thread. Thank you all! 

[No666]

"When people came to Swansea it was probably the longest 90 minutes of their life. So after 10 minutes when they hadn't had a touch of the ball they are looking at the clock and seeing only 10 minutes had gone. It's a long afternoon."

That reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WntL_5hYjdI&feature=player_embedded

The prime, indeed hackneyed, example of us recycling possession until a goal scoring opportunity presented itself. It was not that long ago; much of that team is still with us. It's not going to be completely alien, is it?

[soxfan]

I think the biggest problem with Kenny's system was he didn't have the tactical approach behind it, or at least it wasn't communicated well enough to some of our players.  IMO if Rodgers can change that, we'll be good.

I think this is where we have to have patience as supporters. Kenny had a brilliant attacking mind -- look at his career as both player and manager -- but his system was sputtering the 2nd half of the season in particular. So even though Rodgers might have a great looking system, we're going to have growing pains. To be honest, I wasn't hoping for Rodgers 2 weeks ago, but the more I read about him the more impressive he looks. But it will take time.

[jason23]

Swansea where a joy to watch but lacked a real cutting edge. I really have this fear that we will return to the Evans era of passing for passing's sake with hardly any quality end product.

They just didn't have that real quality to press home their advantage. I watched the Swans under Martinez and one of my biggest gripes then was the pass for passing's sake. I was doing my coaching 'C' badge at the time and the focus was on players exploiting and attacking the space in front of them and I tried to implement that in my kids team but then the kids would watch the Swans and see them turn down those sort of opportunities in favour of a square or reverse pass. Under Rodgers that hasn't really been the case. Yes they love to keep the ball (If you have the ball can you score? Yes! If you have the ball can they score? No! If they have the ball can you score? No! - so keep the ball!)  but they will try to take advantage if the opportunity is there.

I think some of our players will positively grow/shine/blossom under Rodgers' coaching and (this must jar with some) I think that Downing could be one of them. He might keep things fairly simple at first so he can get the gist of it over to the players but I believe that by Christmas at the latest the squad as a whole should be fairly comfortable with the style.

It is likely that his "Technical Board" at Swansea would already have drawn up a list of players that Swansea would target in this window. This list will now need to be revised given a) our greater pulling power b) our greater budget c) our higher standard required d) our current squad and e) our requirements. The players Rodgers brings in will be able to play in his system and that can only make the transition easier.

It's not as though he is going to be asking all the left-footed players to play only with their right foot and vice versa and I am confident that we will produce quality football that is also effective....

[shook]

Not sure if this has been mentioned during the thread, but does anyone who watched Swansea have any observations on how the Swansea players filled space when attacking?

What I mean is, beyond simple passing and moving, did Swansea players in general make intelligent and structured runs, filling the appropriate spaces in a balanced fashion?  Because IMO this was a major problem for us, we would have 3-4 players stuck in one area of the pitch (usually wide), with one player in the box, and then instead of recycling the ball and making the appropriate runs, we would cross it in to be cleared.

[spider-neil]

I'd prefer to see Gerrard played where you have Henderson and then for us to bring in some real quality for that right inside forward position.  Someone in the mold of an Afellay or a Ramirez type player. 

I would definately prefer to see Gerrard positioned as he is pictured in the diagram. For me you can count on one hand the players in our squad who 'come alive' in the final third of the pitch. Calm under pressure, true goal threats, for me these players need to play as high up the pitch as possible.

With possession football the need for racking passes or bursting runs from midfield will be minimised so it would be pointless playing Gerrard further back, instead you play him between the lines and use his intelligence and movement to open up space and his goal threat to pounce on the balls Carroll wins in the area.

[steveeastend]

And you certainly shouldn't take it as I was comparing... they have no Stevie G!

I was just trying to counter the point that the new style and extra games in the EL would be incompatible due to fatigue. The new style should improve our chances if it is played right and a small squad like Barca's was proof of that concept if executed right. As long as our players can keep the ball and force the opposition to make the running then tiredness shouldn't be an issue.

The Barca concept depends heavily on the quality of the players, we donīt have this quality around, for that it will be impossible to play this kind of football and stick to a smaller number of players. Shortly said, we donīt have enough Stevie Gs in his prime around

[Kasper]

I would definately prefer to see Gerrard positioned as he is pictured in the diagram. For me you can count on one hand the players in our squad who 'come alive' in the final third of the pitch. Calm under pressure, true goal threats, for me these players need to play as high up the pitch as possible.

With possession football the need for racking passes or bursting runs from midfield will be minimised so it would be pointless playing Gerrard further back, instead you play him between the lines and use his intelligence and movement to open up space and his goal threat to pounce on the balls Carroll wins in the area.

Exactly. And if you have Suarez doing excactly the same on the other side of the pitch, and Carrol being a nuisance in the area and both of them generally requiring a lot of attention, that could be a deadly attacking trifecta.

[redmark]

I would definately prefer to see Gerrard positioned as he is pictured in the diagram. For me you can count on one hand the players in our squad who 'come alive' in the final third of the pitch. Calm under pressure, true goal threats, for me these players need to play as high up the pitch as possible.

With possession football the need for racking passes or bursting runs from midfield will be minimised so it would be pointless playing Gerrard further back, instead you play him between the lines and use his intelligence and movement to open up space and his goal threat to pounce on the balls Carroll wins in the area.

I can't see us playing patient possession football resulting in hoping someone gets onto "balls Carroll wins in the area". If Carroll does have a place in the system, it will need him to drop and link up, with runners (inside forwards and the two advanced midfielders) getting beyond him, or spreading the ball wide for overlapping fullbacks and then getting into the area to attack a cross. In either event, the two attacking midfielders will need to be capable of the sharp little through balls or good movement and running that Gerrard (and Henderson) can provide.

[lachesis]

</snip>

Precisely

Not sure if this has been mentioned during the thread, but does anyone who watched Swansea have any observations on how the Swansea players filled space when attacking?

I've watched a few games over the last couple of days of Swansea (against us, Norwich, Arsenal and Wigan) so I'm no 'expert' but the general things I've picked up on are:

:: Ball worked across the field from full back to midfielder and releasing the winger;
:: Ball from centre back played past the deep midfielder and straight into attacking midfielder who turns and runs when setting up quick attacks;
:: Players seem to spread well and keep a decent distance from each other;
:: It seems the first ball is played with a known risk attached and the supporting runners anticipated the ball coming right back or were prepared to add pressure when the second ball was loose;
:: The decision on whether to recycle or go for the attack was often made by the two midfielders just ahead of the centre circle. From here it either went back or was sent forward sharply - be interesting to see how that works for us because some of the positions we get in only to play back is ludicrous.

[spider-neil]

I can't see us playing patient possession football resulting in hoping someone gets onto "balls Carroll wins in the area". If Carroll does have a place in the system, it will need him to drop and link up, with runners (inside forwards and the two advanced midfielders) getting beyond him, or spreading the ball wide for overlapping fullbacks and then getting into the area to attack a cross. In either event, the two attacking midfielders will need to be capable of the sharp little through balls or good movement and running that Gerrard (and Henderson) can provide.

I would be very surprised if there were NO crosses. I've already seen clips of Swansea where they have got the ball wide and crossed it, even Barca do this with Dani Alves. If the ball is cross then Carroll is ideally the one to win the first ball and if Gerrard and Suarez are buzzing around him they will capitalise on the second ball.

[lachesis]

Crosses wouldn't really be a good indicator of a tactic at Swansea though as their attackers generally lacked height. A lot of their crosses seemed to be that awkward height of two-four feet that caused problems.

However, Swansea got wide enough on occasion to have the option if taller players were there.

[redmark]

:: The decision on whether to recycle or go for the attack was often made by the two midfielders just ahead of the centre circle. From here it either went back or was sent forward sharply - be interesting to see how that works for us because some of the positions we get in only to play back is ludicrous.

Movement. Rodgers talks in one of his interviews about practicing movement and 'rotation', which seemed with us to be left too much to individual instinct last season. So if Carroll's movement was poor at times, and Downing stands still when he's not directly involved, attacking positions can be squandered because there's no good movement ahead of or inside or outside of the ball.

[redmark]

I would be very surprised if there were NO crosses. I've already seen clips of Swansea where they have got the ball wide and crossed it, even Barca do this with Dani Alves. If the ball is cross then Carroll is ideally the one to win the first ball and if Gerrard and Suarez are buzzing around him they will capitalise on the second ball.

I didn't say no crosses; in fact I specifically mentioned Carroll attacking crosses. However I don't think there'll be an emphasis on speculative crosses and winning the 'second ball' - why focus on possession to then throw in a ball for Carroll to knock down that's as likely to be cleared by a defender as find a teammate? The point of patient possession is to manufacture good chances, not hope for a knockdown.

Ultimately, it's one aspect of why I'm not sure Carroll is sure to be here next season. There are other striker 'types' that might function better.

[spider-neil]

I didn't say no crosses; in fact I specifically mentioned Carroll attacking crosses. However I don't think there'll be an emphasis on speculative crosses and winning the 'second ball' - why focus on possession to then throw in a ball for Carroll to knock down that's as likely to be cleared by a defender as find a teammate? The point of patient possession is to manufacture good chances, not hope for a knockdown.

Ultimately, it's one aspect of why I'm not sure Carroll is sure to be here next season. There are other striker 'types' that might function better.

I think Carroll's technical ability is under estimated, from what I've seen of him for both Liverpool and Newcastle is he is just as capable on the deck as he is on the air but wasn't given enough balls into feet and wasn't given enough support from midfield to prove it.

[steveeastend]

"Obviously I have a philosophy in terms of where I want to get to but that won't happen on the first day. What we will need to do is make a number of adjustments and bring in players for key positions that will allow us to play that way.

"You can't come to Liverpool and play a direct game of football, lumping-it style.

"This is a club that is historic for the identity, style and DNA of its football."

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/rodgers-outlines-his-lfc-vision

I cannot say how much I loved to read that! Go for it Brendan!!!

[Markus_12]

I think Carroll's technical ability is under estimated, from what I've seen of him for both Liverpool and Newcastle is he is just as capable on the deck as he is on the air but wasn't given enough balls into feet and wasn't given enough support from midfield to prove it.

I agree.  I actually think it is quite possible for Carroll to flourish in this system.  I think he will still see a decent amount of crosses, but he will be seeing them after we have passed the ball around and gotten into an ideal crossing position.  He won't have to be attacking crosses anymore that weren't actually crosses, but rather balls hoofed up to him from behind. 

[redmark]

I think Carroll's technical ability is under estimated, from what I've seen of him for both Liverpool and Newcastle is he is just as capable on the deck as he is on the air but wasn't given enough balls into feet and wasn't given enough support from midfield to prove it.

I'm not criticising his technical ability (any more than I said there would 'no crossing'). I think his control is good and his passing his good. His movement can improve. However, there are other 'types' of striker that might thrive better in a patient, passing side. A quick goalscorer to latch onto through balls, a tricky skilful player who can interchange with the inside forwards. Accepting that Carroll's strength is his aerial ability doesn't imply that he has no other skills; but equally to ignore his heading ability or it's suitability is unwise.

If we didn't have a number 9 at the club at all, would we be discussing Andy Carroll as an obvious fit for the sort of football we expect from Rodgers?

[Vulmea]

Yeah a lot of the 'legendary' pressing teams pressed mainly in the middle third, the most notable example being Sacchi's Milan. It varies of course but pressing is to be done as a team and the key is knowing when to press with intensity and knowing when to drop off. If you press aggressively near the opposition box, it can mean that players get enticed forward and end up leaving too much space between the lines and behind the defenders. If you don't have the balance and co-ordination as a team then you'll be easy to break down. If you press mainly in the middle third, it allows you to be more compact as a team.

aint sure of the 'legendary' teams bit to be honest and if you recover the ball in the final third you have a far higher chance of scoring - you need a higher defensive line and a keeper comfortable as a sweeper in order to compress the play like that though  - yes it can increase the opportunities for the opposition but our intent is that the opposition are going to come desparate for a draw, spending the first 30 minutes wondering what the ball looks like

[vivabobbygraham]

Loved that line about 'the opposition thinking it's the 'longest 90 minutes of their lives' when they come to Anfield...or something like that.

[Not A Scouser]

From the OPTA stats Rodgers doesn't seem to like his forwards pressing too much near the opposition box. He seems to prefer the ball being played into the midfield, tightening it and then winning the duel there. Possibly because heavy pressing takes less energy from a number of players than a fewer number of players - this in turn conserves the attackers energy levels for when they are needed most?

I think the reason for this would be to leave space behind the opposition defence to attack.  If you gain possession just outside the opposition penalty area there isn't enough space to put a ball in behind.  If you win it fifteen yards further back you have the opportunity for a quick through ball.

[BEAST]

I'd love to see Gerrard as one of the inside forwards, interchanging freely with Suarez as the other one - and Carrol as the target man laying the ball off and giving the central defenders a hard time. I firmly believe that Gerrard is utilized best when he can be more direct, attacking and doesn't have to be too disciplined - and especially when he can find space behind the striker and get some shots off. With a bit of luck (and willingness) I think he could mimic the success a player like Cristiano Ronaldo has had coming in the from the wing as an inside forward.

I'd set up like this. My personal hope is that Aquilani will come back and get a chance as the playmaker - so I put him in the middle with Henderson. But it's mainly to illustrate the kind of player I'd like to see there.

I like it but that team is WAY more narrow than Swansea was.

Then again, being a big club we can do thinks like afford a 15m RB that most teams can't, so maybe we can just get the width from our fullbacks.

I wouldn't be averse to seeing a Gerrard-Carroll-Suarez triumvirate up top but I would need to see it to believe it'll be successful.   Personally I would like to see Gerrard and Aquilani in the attacking mid roles ...... maybe we'd only get 38 games total out of both of them but that's fine.  Then I'd like at least 1 player who is supremely comfortable as a wide forward in a 433 - the "top 4" version of Dyer.  Maybe we'd need to go to Holland or Spain to find such a player but so be it.

[IamSpartacus]

Swap Lucas and Gerrard and I'm with you.

Would love to see Stevie G in the advanced role but I cannot see him playing an up tempo attacking game week in and week out at this stage of his career.