Topic: Why Rafa is the man for Liverpool

[conman]

Well I've already posted my views on the 'Barry saga' in this thread if you care to look, but again, trying to sell Xabi Alonso in order to raise funds for Gareth Barry was one of Rafa's biggest mistakes at LFC (IMO).

you commented on Keane, but didn't comment on the quotes i provided over that transfer. I'd appreciate it if you did.

[Z e u s]

04/05 - 5th
05/06 - 3rd
06/07 - 3rd
07/08 - 4th
08/09 - 2nd
09/10 - 7th

So four out of those 6 above were "poor"? I must be easily pleased.

Five out of those six seasons we were out of the title by Christmas (If I am right in saying), often earlier.

OK the first season I will let him off as he needed to build a new side.  But the other five, one title challenge in six seasons - sorry not good enough IMO given the players he inherited.

I didn't expect us to necessarily win the league, but we only had one title challenge - it was not good enough IMO and I don't think he ever 'got' the league, we were too cautious and it cost us season after season, even in 2008/9 it has been argued it was the difference between a title and a challenge.

[subroc]

Why do we even have a thread about Benitez - is there a source saying he is in the running?

If not, this thread should be closed.

Why do you want this thread to be closed and feel the need to paint Benitez almost as a failure in it? Do you dislike him that much?

[Z e u s]

I am biding my time mate believe me.  There is no source, but then there are no reliable sources for any of the candidates so Rafa remains technically involved.  It's not going to happen though is it?  So we need to pick our chins up, stop behaving like a bunch of mid-game Man City fans, and move on.

I agree.

We have to move on.

[conman]

I agree.

We have to move on.

Move on

[The 92A]

probably wont employ him, but we can have hope.

We're trying to help some face reality so the appointment of a new manager isn't going to be so painful

[subroc]

Five out of those six seasons we were out of the title by Christmas (If I am right in saying), often earlier.

OK the first season I will let him off as he needed to build a new side.  But the other five, one title challenge in six seasons - sorry not good enough IMO given the players he inherited.

I didn't expect us to necessarily win the league, but we only had one title challenge - it was not good enough IMO and I don't think he ever 'got' the league, we were too cautious and it cost us season after season, even in 2008/9 it has been argued it was the difference between a title and a challenge.

And we have had so many real title challenges int he last 20 years, have we? Not to mention won the CL and qualified for the semis and the final so many times over the last 20 times Apart from the Bentiez years, eh?

The so-called caution was in fact wise tactics. Playing for broke would have gotten us slaughtered.

[Z e u s]

Why do you want this thread to be closed and feel the need to paint Benitez almost as a failure in it? Do you dislike him that much?

I remember the good times, the bad times and in the end I think we needed a change.  I will never down play his achievements though, but I also won't forget what he did wrong.

The reason I think the thread should be closed is because it is meant to be for managers who are in the running for the job.  Everyone seems to agree, FSG aren't considering him.  So no point in debating the possible chance.  We'd be better moving on.

[Paragon]

I raise you a

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/5578084/Xabi-Alonso-warns-that-tax-will-drive-top-players-away.html

You're responding to conclusive evidence with a flimsy article. Xabi Alonso has admitted that he knew he wanted to leave Liverpool when Rafa tried to sell him. They're his own words. 

[astowell1]

I am biding my time mate believe me.  There is no source, but then there are no reliable sources for any of the candidates so Rafa remains technically involved.  It's not going to happen though is it?  So we need to pick our chins up, stop behaving like a bunch of mid-game Man City fans, and move on.

Well said, totally agree.  This really isn't going to happen and we have to move on and accept our new and impending future under the next manager.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

The decline started before Benitez left, that is clear given we came 7th in the league.

The same year we were, according to you 'out of all compitions in october' yet somehow managed to get to the ufea cup semi's?

[subroc]

I remember the good times, the bad times and in the end I think we needed a change.  I will never down play his achievements though, but I also won't forget what he did wrong.

The reason I think the thread should be closed is because it is meant to be for managers who are in the running for the job.  Everyone seems to agree, FSG aren't considering him.  So no point in debating the possible chance.  We'd be better moving on.

Who knows...maybe he is just another name down the list they have not come to yet...

[Acaustiq]

Rafa didnt decide the fee for any of those players, nor did he buy Keane, he wanted Barry then Keane, but Parry and Co said you can have Keane or Barry, not both and proceeded to buy Keane without Rafa's say so.

Do you never stop and think - "You know, these stories about Keane, Barry, Roma, Portsmouth and Jovetic, they're just a bit too convenient."

It's not like they're corroborated by multiple sources, they haven't been fact checked by Vanity Fair or Rolling Stone.

[Z e u s]

The same year we were, according to you 'out of all compitions in october' yet somehow managed to get to the ufea cup semi's?

It was November not October, I was wrong by a month.  I meant and have clearly explained, the competitions we started the season in.  Hence Champs League, not Uefa Cup.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

sorry not good enough IMO given the players he inherited.

The players he inherited scraped into the top four, dragged kicking and screaming by Steven Gerrard the previous season. Had we finished on 58pts (Rafa's first season total) in Houllier's final season we'd have still made top 4. Had we finished on 60pts (Houllier's last season total) in Rafa's first season, we'd have still finished 5th.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

It was November not October, I was wrong by a month.  I meant and have clearly explained, the competitions we started the season in.  Hence Champs League, not Uefa Cup.

Rigghttt.

You are aware that us getting into the ufea cup came from our time in the Cl?

But lets put some random markers down and shift them when shown that you don't know the basics that all Liverpool fans know.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Am I stuck in a time warp? Doomed forever to exist inside an argument that was pretty damn tedious back in late 2009.  Maybe I have died and this is my particularly fiendish private hell?

[S]

Benitez certainly wasn't without his flaws, and I think some on this forum are determined to ignore that fact.

However, I've never understood why his transfer activity is criticized so much. For every Voronin there's a Chamakh, for every Dossena there's a Veron. Every manager makes errors of judgement but for some reason Benitez is the only one whose bad decisions get spoken about.

[lankyguy007]

Five out of those six seasons we were out of the title by Christmas (If I am right in saying), often earlier.

OK the first season I will let him off as he needed to build a new side.  But the other five, one title challenge in six seasons - sorry not good enough IMO given the players he inherited.

I didn't expect us to necessarily win the league, but we only had one title challenge - it was not good enough IMO and I don't think he ever 'got' the league, we were too cautious and it cost us season after season, even in 2008/9 it has been argued it was the difference between a title and a challenge.

I think your expectations were too high. You could say that he inherited some good players (Gerrard, Hamann, Owen) but seriously if you compare them to the top 3 at the time, we were clearly very far behind. Arsenal had gone a season unbeaten and had players like Campbell, Cole, Vieira, Pires, Henry, Bergkamp. Man United had Rooney, Ferdinand, Neville, Ronaldo, Scholes, Giggs, Van Nistelrooy etc, Chelsea had Cech, Carvalho, Terry, Lampard, Makelele, Robben, Drogba etc. In addition to that their squads were a lot stronger than ours. We had very little pace or balance in the side, very few quality players and a squad that was very very far off being a title challenging squad.

2005/06 we finished with 82 points and came third, two places better than the season before. Yet still we didn't have the financial power to be able to put forward a genuine challenge. Personally I feel that Rafa possibly concentrated too much on the squad rather than first choice players but even then we were still improving without the financial backing. Then, after the first transfer market under H + G where Rafa was backed but Parry was still messing up transfers, he started to have his hands tied behind his back again. Yet we still, with the fifth highest net profit and the fifth costliest squad and the fifth highest wage budget, came 2nd in 2009. I don't see how you think Rafa could realistically have challenged for the title every year.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

Am I stuck in a time warp? Doomed forever to exist inside an argument that was pretty damn tedious back in late 2009.  Maybe I have died and this is my particularly fiendish private hell?

 

[conman]

Do you never stop and think - "You know, these stories about Keane, Barry, Roma, Portsmouth and Jovetic, they're just a bit too convenient."

It's not like they're corroborated by multiple sources, they haven't been fact checked by Vanity Fair or Rolling Stone.

I posted Rafa's quotes on these very 2 topics. One of which is on the previous page here.

[Runehammer]

04/05 - 5th
05/06 - 3rd
06/07 - 3rd
07/08 - 4th
08/09 - 2nd
09/10 - 7th

So four out of those 6 above were "poor"? I must be easily pleased.

Wonders if just one of the 3rds was poor or both since 4th is the new Utopia.

[conman]

Am I stuck in a time warp? Doomed forever to exist inside an argument that was pretty damn tedious back in late 2009.  Maybe I have died and this is my particularly fiendish private hell?

I think you all are, maybe you can persuade the thread to talk about the theme of the thread "why Rafa is the man for Liverpool".

[pistolpete]

Am I stuck in a time warp? Doomed forever to exist inside an argument that was pretty damn tedious back in late 2009.  Maybe I have died and this is my particularly fiendish private hell?

Yep but it's still good to see the old myths & skyisms blown out of the water and some posters given a factual history lesson.

[lankyguy007]

I think you all are, maybe you can persuade the thread to talk about the theme of the thread "why Rafa is the man for Liverpool".

Because he's a genius, that's why

[astowell1]

Considering Martinez and Rodgers seem to be the front runners for the job, would it be a massive surprise to see Lambert's name being touted and linked more? How would you guys feel about him being manager?  They're all similar to me.

[Paragon]

To be honest if his own wife has confirmed that there has been no contact then what is the point in this thread? Petty arguments and as VDM said, we've seen it all before. I think maybe it's time to lock this. 

[KopMcGinty]

Why is rafa the man for England?

With him 5 good season out of 6.  Regular CL qualification.

Since err.. no good seasons and no CL.

The one bad season was a man engineered out of the club by our cancerous owners.  Really that last season Benitez was in an untenable situation and there was so much infighting at LFC it looked like the american civil war.  Mitigating circumstances for most people.  Some people bought so far into the media lines though they can't see it though.

Those who disliked Rafa for the style of play etc are entitled to their opinion and that is a different debate but those who blame him for our decline seem hellbent on doing so despite the mass evidence to the contrary.

All that said it clearly isnt happening but i've said it before and will say it again, i'd love him back one day to finish what he started with owners that actually back him.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Considering Martinez and Rodgers seem to be the front runners for the job, would it be a massive surprise to see Lambert's name being touted and linked more?

Oh leave off. It's depressing enough seeing the first two names.

[lankyguy007]

To be honest if his own wife has confirmed that there has been no contact then what is the point in this thread? Petty arguments and as VDM said, we've seen it all before. I think maybe it's time to lock this.

Says the person who keeps bringing them back up

[conman]

To be honest if his own wife has confirmed that there has been no contact then what is the point in this thread? Petty arguments and as VDM said, we've seen it all before. I think maybe it's time to lock this. 

We don't know the future, Rogers was ruled out previously, so was Klopp. Circumstances can change.

[Cheshire_Cat]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1210773/Xabi-Alonso-I-decided-leave-Liverpool-year-ago--Rafa-Benitez-tried-sell-fund-swoop-Gareth-Barry.html

Is Mr. Alonso part of this 'Sky myth bingo' too?

And I'll raise you a

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/oct/14/premierleague-liverpool

I understand why Alonso left when he did, but I also understand why Rafa tried to sell him when he did. Alonso's form was such that we couldn't get £18m for him in 2008 and yet we got £30m 12 months later. Go figure .....

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

To be honest if his own wife has confirmed that there has been no contact then what is the point in this thread? Petty arguments and as VDM said, we've seen it all before. I think maybe it's time to lock this. 

well the exact quote is "No he is at home, we have double checked the phone is working and the broadband as well! but nothing happened yet."

[Acaustiq]

I posted Rafa's quotes on these very 2 topics. One of which is on the previous page here.

Which reinforce my point; so what? Why is his word gospel?

He fucked up so he pins it on the owners and parry, three people he knows the fans hate and will back him against all day long.

There's a chance you've been had, I'm afraid.

[Paragon]

Says the person who keeps bringing them back up

 

I posted my opinion once and since then all of my posts have been responses to others who are speaking directly to me. I haven't 'brought anything up'. If anything it's the likes of you who are highlighting the same old stories about your undying love for Rafa.

well the exact quote is "No he is at home, we have double checked the phone is working and the broadband as well! but nothing happened yet."

Time will tell mate

[conman]

Which reinforce my point; so what? Why is his word gospel?

He fucked up so he pins it on the owners and parry, three people he knows the fans hate and will back him against all day long.

There's a chance you've been had, I'm afraid.

I never heard Parry say otherwise, I never heard Moore's say otherwise. Infact all the hype in the lead up to this was over Barry, rather than Keane. That would suggest Barry was integral to his plans. Barry was English born, another reason he was needed for the squad with the new rules coming in.

[eirwen]

I wish Rafa just went to another club already. This is heartbreaking.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

Am I stuck in a time warp? Doomed forever to exist inside an argument that was pretty damn tedious back in late 2009.  Maybe I have died and this is my particularly fiendish private hell?

Yep.

Its frankly become clear that there's little point trying to change the minds of reds like Zeus and Paragon.

They're perfectly aware he's by far our most successful manager in recent history. How much he spent. What his tactics were. What we won. The changes he made to the club. The pride he brought back to us. They know what happened to the main sticks that were used to beat him - the zonal marking (numerous golden gloves), playing 2 defensive midfielders (now widely adopted by top clubs), moving Gerrard from CM, Lucas, rotation and wanting Barry to come to the club (the same one who just won the premiership as a stalwart of the team).

But they look at all this and conclude that Rafa failed.

Fair enough, they're entitled to their opinion but it reminds you of the aphorism that "you can't reason a man out of a position he has reached without reason".

God only knows how they have reached the conclusions they have - I suspect its watching Andy Grey too much - but if all those years of watching how Rafa went about his job couldnt do it they're not going to change their minds by some posts on RAWK - no matter how much logic they contain. Happily though it does provide a helpful signpost about how seriously we can regard their opinion on current matters.

It's the fact they're LIverpool fans that makes you think there's a logical, knowledgeable or educated (in footballing terms) part of their brain you can reach - but you can't. And it's the hope that kills you.

[redmark]

I never heard Parry say otherwise, I never heard Moore's say otherwise. Infact all the hype in the lead up to this was over Barry, rather than Keane. That would suggest Barry was integral to his plans. Barry was English born, another reason he was needed for the squad with the new rules coming in.

Keane was 'homegrown'. Not getting any further into this particular "debate" than that...

[Paragon]

 

So you're jumping on the 'Andy Gray accusation' bandwagon. You have not once tried to disprove anything that I've said.

For the last time I am not saying Rafa failed, I'm saying I think he's the wrong man for the job vacancy. Read what I've said before you spout more bollocks.