Topic: Why Rafa is the man for Liverpool

[The G in Gerrard]

Ah but he's only the stand out candidate to those who want him back, those who cant and wont or even refuse to put his time here behind them

There's a better or realistic candidate out there?

[Buzz Killington]

Ah but he's only the stand out candidate to those who want him back, those who cant and wont or even refuse to put his time here behind them

Name better candidates than him that are available, and realistic.

[disainit]

Actually, a completely new slate would mean 'new fans' as well.

Maybe that's FSG's strategy all along. Get rid of us baggage.

[Hazell]

Excellent post mate. Put simply, football wise, Rafa makes sense, and that's all it should be about.

[disainit]

Forget the plan we had, its gone, its over.
Yes we, as a club have regressed, a mixture of many things account for that, but like Neil has suggested on TAW I think we need a clean slate if we are going down the Year Zero route.
We have to remember the past but lets not repeat it.

The last time we wanted a clean slate, we got Uncle Roy.

[KopMcGinty]

Top post HH. You mentioned the internally orchestrated campaign to discredit Rafa, which on turn dirtied his name with the fans. The papers & sky were only too eager to lap it up and stick the boot in. Not only to their fat Spanish waiter, but also to the fans that were taking onboard their bile and turning on our manager. The internally orchestrated campaign by our morally bankrupt owners who almost bankrupted the cub, led the campaign to destroy the club financially, physically and verbally.

Despite all these problems, Rafa stood up for the club, he stood up for us and got shat on by many of our own. So call us bitter all you want, or Rafa fans. But that man did a bell of a lot for the very fabric of this club. Without that man communicating cryptic messages with us, Rawk could well have been too late to start the series of campaigns to prevent the banks rounding us in more dept. ffs, Liverpool fc oils have been done. That's my wee rant for people not understanding why we hold Rafa with such high esteem, just like Kenny. Rafa means a lot to LFC. They were both there for us in our times of need.

Now, to the footballing side of the matter. When Rafa arrived in 2004, he said he wanted 2 quality players for every position on the pitch. If we were to challenge (especially with his physically demanding high pressing game), we needed to be able to slot players in and out of the team seamlessly, like a jigsaw. We were never afforded that luxury.

He bought many mediocre players, as he had not the funds to o out and buy big names, but he worked with the told he had, and improved the players. Combine a bit of cash and the youth players. And rafa would not be bringing in many average players for a 2nd term.
 
He had to sell some of our good players, so he could buy better. He bought direct replacements, not direct competition. Bellamy, Garcia, etc are testament to those we were unable to keep. We traded up, and in many ways our squad got thinner, thus stretching us further for a sustained attempt at challenging the league. We regularly competed into the final stages of the European cup, We had so many Spanish wc and euro winners within our ranks too, players that were not going to be able to recharge their batteries for the coming seasons. Injuries, a thin squad and fatigue (muscle and mental) would have played their part during rafas tenure.

People say he played defensively. This is not true, we did play a rigid game for some time. But the squad was evolving. He replaced arbeloa with Johnson, the attack minded Dossena was brought in to play the left. Barry, jovetic and (I can't think who the 3rd was) were brought in to play the middle. This isn't the making of a defensive future? Rafa was learning and building that squad off a solid defensive shape, and was trying to bring a more dynamic attack to his crushing machine.

If Rafa were to return, we would see him build with that same intent.

Spot on post.

This is why despite trying to see the merits and sense of looking elsewhere, for me rafa is the no1 choice by a long shot.  I voted for him in the other thread.

Is my view romanticised by Istanbul?  Hell, I'd be lying if i said otherwise.  That was the best day of my life.   Bearing in mind I am happily married with three kids that says something.  On that score I am guilty as charged and so hold up my hands but, I don't feel I am rodent simply following the Pied Piper (though what a Piper!).

In our time of trouble Rafa showed himself to be the side of the club.  Rafa could easily have gone quietly but he made the owners scrape the barrel of morality and then punch through the bottom into the realm of anything goes to get him out.  Why?  because LFC is all that matters (and I believe Rafa has that affinity for the club that we as fans do) ..Not what the owners can earn from it.  Not what the media can generate bullshit stories around.  Not even what the fans in our quest for trophies would have happen.  The health of the club comes before all that and Rafa was in a position to fight for it and luckily for us was a man with the fortitude and affinity to do just that.  Even without the CL that alone would be a huge plus for me but when you add that to the achievements as proof of ability and then take a healthy dose of his tactical ability and vision of how a club can be run he is a stand out choice.

All that said I accept is is not going to happen at this point which is a shame.  As mentioned if Rafa had done what he did for us anywhere else FSG would have had him in for a chat pronto but this is one case were fan opinion counts against.  After Kenny they can't risk being burned a second time and so sadly he may never get the chance to rectify his unfinished business at Anfield.

[shelovesyou]

There's a better or realistic candidate out there?

You know its not as straight forward as that mate, you can argue no of course, but its not that simple, thats what im getting at.
Realistic ? Yes, because its clear FSG dont want to involve him.
Better ? Again subjective.

Again just my take on the situation and like I say FSG have a lot to prove.
So I'll leave it at that.

[zero zero]

The last time we you wanted a clean slate, we got Uncle Roy.

Is more accurate

[shelovesyou]

Is more accurate

Not that you hold a grudge tho eh!? Pathetic.
Im out.

[The G in Gerrard]

You know its not as straight forward as that mate, you can argue no of course, but its not that simple, thats what im getting at.
Realistic ? Yes, because its clear FSG dont want to involve him.
Better ? Again subjective.

Again just my take on the situation and like I say FSG have a lot to prove.
So I'll leave it at that.

Your post said he's the only good candidate if your some kind of Rafa fanatic, who can't see anything better there. So who in your opinion is a better candidate?

[HarryLabrador]

Despite all these problems, Rafa stood up for the club, he stood up for us and got shat on by many of our own. So call us bitter all you want, or Rafa fans. But that man did a bell of a lot for the very fabric of this club. Without that man communicating cryptic messages with us, Rawk could well have been too late to start the series of campaigns to prevent the banks rounding us in more dept. ffs, Liverpool fc oils have been done. That's my wee rant for people not understanding why we hold Rafa with such high esteem, just like Kenny. Rafa means a lot to LFC. They were both there for us in our times of need.

Excellent observation. It's becoming pretty obvious the reason why FSG are ignoring Rafa...they are scared of him.  The sad bit is that without Rafa's stance during H&G's ownership, FSG would not now be custodians of LFC.

[HighSix]

Rafa does make sense on a number of levels but the model FSG look to be going down (a strong DOF say Cruyff or Van Gaal working with a young manager) is exciting to me.

[shelovesyou]

Your post said he's the only good candidate if your some kind of Rafa fanatic, who can't see anything better there. So who in your opinion is a better candidate?

Im not sure we'll ever agree mate, not having a go, Im not sure who is the best candidate, without the baggage etc, so i dont know.
Not trying to be dismissive at all but im better off out of here before the lynch mob starts.

[Red Genius]

Im not sure we'll ever agree mate, not having a go, Im not sure who is the best candidate, without the baggage etc, so i dont know.
Not trying to be dismissive at all but im better off out of here before the lynch mob starts.

You probably are mate, because you find it difficult to be objective with Rafa, you have this irrational concept of his time at our club and his over all qualities and abilities, your perception of him are driven by emotion rather than logic, so ta'ra la.

[The G in Gerrard]

Im not sure we'll ever agree mate, not having a go, Im not sure who is the best candidate, without the baggage etc, so i dont know.
Not trying to be dismissive at all but im better off out of here before the lynch mob starts.

Fair enough but if your not sure then I don't see how you can dismiss/question Rafa's credentials for the post. Anyway its all subjective, hopefully its all over soon.

[Grobbelrevell]

Asked if the blueprint was to install a younger manager, Henry said: “Initially it was. You want to have long-term stability in as much as the staff as possible..."

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2011/10/14/liverpool-fc-owner-john-henry-we-wanted-a-young-manager-but-were-won-round-by-kenny-dalglish-92534-29593099/

This is the only logical reason I can think of to explain why FSG are refusing to consider Benitez.

Villas-Boas (35), Rodgers (39), Martinez (39), Klopp (45), De Boer (42), Deschamps (44).

Perhaps it's as simple as them laying down a selection criteria headed by a policy of no older than forty-five.

[zero zero]

Not that you hold a grudge tho eh!? Pathetic.

If I did, it'd be perfectly understandable. But I don't. It's just I stopped being interested in you pontificating on our managers, let's see, three manager's back.

[Sangria]

Top post HH. You mentioned the internally orchestrated campaign to discredit Rafa, which on turn dirtied his name with the fans. The papers & sky were only too eager to lap it up and stick the boot in. Not only to their fat Spanish waiter, but also to the fans that were taking onboard their bile and turning on our manager. The internally orchestrated campaign by our morally bankrupt owners who almost bankrupted the cub, led the campaign to destroy the club financially, physically and verbally.

Despite all these problems, Rafa stood up for the club, he stood up for us and got shat on by many of our own. So call us bitter all you want, or Rafa fans. But that man did a bell of a lot for the very fabric of this club. Without that man communicating cryptic messages with us, Rawk could well have been too late to start the series of campaigns to prevent the banks rounding us in more dept. ffs, Liverpool fc oils have been done. That's my wee rant for people not understanding why we hold Rafa with such high esteem, just like Kenny. Rafa means a lot to LFC. They were both there for us in our times of need.

And the last thing he did for us was to drop most of his compensation, saving the club money rather than claim what he was legally entitled to. And in return, the likes of Cormack Snr try to paint him as a leech who's cost the club (an imaginary) £20m to pay off, whilst ignoring the concrete fact that their preferred manager Hodgson squeezed the club for every penny he could get, amounting to more compensation money for 6 months at LFC than Benitez got for 6 years service.

[Red Genius]

Asked if the blueprint was to install a younger manager, Henry said: “Initially it was. You want to have long-term stability in as much as the staff as possible..."

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2011/10/14/liverpool-fc-owner-john-henry-we-wanted-a-young-manager-but-were-won-round-by-kenny-dalglish-92534-29593099/

This is the only logical reason I can think of to explain why FSG are refusing to consider Benitez.

Villas-Boas (35), Rodgers (39), Martinez (39), Klopp (45), De Boer (42), Deschamps (44).

Perhaps it's as simple as them laying down a selection criteria headed by a policy of no older than forty-five.

Well that would demonstrate their ineptitude in itself. What's Rafa 52? Hardly and old fogey.... has at least 10 - 15 years in his locker.

[HighSix]

Perhaps it's as simple as them laying down a selection criteria headed by a policy of no older than forty-five.

Were Capello & Van Gaal not considered for the managers position as some media suggested, I guess we dont really know.

[Grobbelrevell]

Well that would demonstrate their ineptitude in itself. What's Rafa 52? Hardly and old fogey.... has at least 10 - 15 years in his locker.

Oh I agree completely mate, like I say though i'm struggling to find any other logical reason. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that as two successful and intelligent businessmen they're not being driven by second hand opinion/grudges either.

Were Capello & Van Gaal not considered for the managers position as some media suggested, I guess we dont really know.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure but as I understand it Capello never met the criteria that they were looking for (which i'm guessing is primarily relating to age) and Van Gaal seems to be in contention for the Sporting Director role rather than manager (although it seems obvious he'd like that position).

[El Ninos Black Eye]

Asked if the blueprint was to install a younger manager, Henry said: “Initially it was. You want to have long-term stability in as much as the staff as possible..."

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2011/10/14/liverpool-fc-owner-john-henry-we-wanted-a-young-manager-but-were-won-round-by-kenny-dalglish-92534-29593099/

This is the only logical reason I can think of to explain why FSG are refusing to consider Benitez.

Villas-Boas (35), Rodgers (39), Martinez (39), Klopp (45), De Boer (42), Deschamps (44).

Perhaps it's as simple as them laying down a selection criteria headed by a policy of no older than forty-five.

“But the fans knew much more than I did. It took me a while to get up to speed.”


Interesting comment by John Henry. Shame he's not listening now   

[-HH-]

Im not sure we'll ever agree mate, not having a go, Im not sure who is the best candidate, without the baggage etc, so i dont know.
Not trying to be dismissive at all but im better off out of here before the lynch mob starts.

No lynch-mobbing from me, but you're talking about a manager who has won 2 la ligas, a champions league, a UEFA cup and recorded 2 of our highest ever points tallies. What you said was the only reason people want him back is due to emotional attachment. I'm well aware of your views on Rafa and you're entitled to your opinion but say his Liverpool record was achieved at, say, Tottenham - you wouldn't think his was the most stand out cv of anyone obviously available? 

[Black Bull Nova]

Asked if the blueprint was to install a younger manager, Henry said: “Initially it was. You want to have long-term stability in as much as the staff as possible..."

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2011/10/14/liverpool-fc-owner-john-henry-we-wanted-a-young-manager-but-were-won-round-by-kenny-dalglish-92534-29593099/

This is the only logical reason I can think of to explain why FSG are refusing to consider Benitez.

Villas-Boas (35), Rodgers (39), Martinez (39), Klopp (45), De Boer (42), Deschamps (44).

Perhaps it's as simple as them laying down a selection criteria headed by a policy of no older than forty-five.

Average age of managers in top 10 of PL=56.6, average of bottom 10=47.1

[MagicB8all]

No lynch-mobbing from me, but you're talking about a manager who has won 2 la ligas, a champions league, a UEFA cup and recorded 2 of our highest ever points tallies. What you said was the only reason people want him back is due to emotional attachment. I'm well aware of your views on Rafa and you're entitled to your opinion but say his Liverpool record was achieved at, say, Tottenham - you wouldn't think his was the most stand out cv of anyone obviously available? 

The way I see it Rafa needs to give up on Liverpool and go abroad. Take some non entity to a league and European cup (CL) all on next to nothing.
Then maybe in 2 seasons when Chelsea have given up on Guadiola,  FSG have failed at Liverpool, or Harry loses his stars and quits Spurs would Rafa be considered for a managers job in the premier league.

[jackfrancis]

Forget the plan we had, its gone, its over.
Yes we, as a club have regressed, a mixture of many things account for that, but like Neil has suggested on TAW I think we need a clean slate if we are going down the Year Zero route.
We have to remember the past but lets not repeat it.

If repeating the past means going to CL finals every few years and racking up more and more points, I think I would like to repeat the past, thank you.  Who besides Neil and a few other muppets brainwashed by Sky punditry really thinks a 'clean slate' is a good idea? A clean slate means starting over, which is ridiculous.  It's not as if we were in a relegation battle and playing terrible football.  We don't need or want a clean slate.  We want a good manager to put the finishing touches on a strong squad, and play them well and in a tactically astute way, get them confident and firing on all cylinders.  Maybe ship off a few obvious duds and bring in some properly scouted talent to strengthen the squad.. but a clean slate is an insane and pointless idea.

Of all the managers out there who could potentially- I don't know, win a league like La Liga with a team not named Barcelona or Real Madrid, or go to CL finals with an under-dog squad featuring Crouch and Dirk Kuyt, I think Rafa is the best one.  He's in his prime, he's proven in the Prem, he's available.. he lives minutes from the ground.  All this clean slate talk, to me, is just sport cliche being trotted out as wisdom when really it's the exact opposite.  This is a chance to get the Rafa train back in gear, I don't want to miss it.  He's the best manager we've seen in Europe for LFC since Paisley.  He's one of the best tacticians I've seen in the modern game, ever.  Why go backwards? Why start from zero? It makes zero sense, to me.

[lfcderek]

If it's a swift return to the top four you're after, who's the most likely to get it for you? This is a serious choice for you, you're mortgage depends on it - maybe your wife's virtue! 

Guus Hiddink
José Mourinho
Fabio Capello
Rafael Benitez
Van Gaal   

I think in practice the first 3 are simply not available due to money - both their salary and their demands for transfer funds.

To get quickly to a top four I think Rafa is a clear favourite.

OK, OK, OK so a medium/long term structure is more important to you.

So you need a young, hungry manager to work under a DoF.

Martinez or Rodgers. Either one - no problem.

You need a DoF.

Johan Cruyff
Van Gaal
Txiki Begiristain

Honestly can't believe Cruyff would come.

Van Gaal as DOF is likely to be a short term regardless of who the manager is.

So, for me,

The return of Rafa as manager
or
Txiki Begiristain/Rodgers combo

would, IMHO, be viable solutions. I'm a Rafa fan so I'd prefer the first.

Maybe Rafa could work long term with a DoF - I don't know.

Maybe our top players would stay under a Txiki Begiristain/Rodgers regime - I don't know.

Certainly the much fancied Van Gaal/(Martinez or Rodgers) combo seems to address neither of the two possible priorities of FSG.

[Black Bull Nova]

If repeating the past means going to CL finals every few years and racking up more and more points, I think I would like to repeat the past, thank you.  Who besides Neil and a few other muppets brainwashed by Sky punditry really thinks a 'clean slate' is a good idea? A clean slate means starting over, which is ridiculous.  It's not as if we were in a relegation battle and playing terrible football.  We don't need or want a clean slate.  We want a good manager to put the finishing touches on a strong squad, and play them well and in a tactically astute way, get them confident and firing on all cylinders.  Maybe ship off a few obvious duds and bring in some properly scouted talent to strengthen the squad.. but a clean slate is an insane and pointless idea.

Of all the managers out there who could potentially- I don't know, win a league like La Liga with a team not named Barcelona or Real Madrid, or go to CL finals with an under-dog squad featuring Crouch and Dirk Kuyt, I think Rafa is the best one.  He's in his prime, he's proven in the Prem, he's available.. he lives minutes from the ground.  All this clean slate talk, to me, is just sport cliche being trotted out as wisdom when really it's the exact opposite.  This is a chance to get the Rafa train back in gear, I don't want to miss it.  He's the best manager we've seen in Europe for LFC since Paisley.  He's one of the best tacticians I've seen in the modern game, ever.  Why go backwards? Why start from zero? It makes zero sense, to me.

Maybe it has been posted and maybe I already know but there are numerous posts which say things like, "we all know why Rafa won't get the job" could someone place on record here a definitive list of these reasons so we can take stock of whether they stand up to scrutiny. I've heard some things behind the scenes but I'm not that close now and we surely have enough informed people inputting into this forum to state once and for all the true situation as at May 2012.

[Black Bull Nova]

If it's a swift return to the top four you're after, who's the most likely to get it for you? This is a serious choice for you, you're mortgage depends on it - maybe your wife's virtue! 

"Your wife's virtue", classic knight's of the round table stuff

[lfcderek]

"Your wife's virtue", classic knight's of the round table stuff

some of those Knights may have 'Long Swords' my good man.

[shelovesyou]

No lynch-mobbing from me, but you're talking about a manager who has won 2 la ligas, a champions league, a UEFA cup and recorded 2 of our highest ever points tallies. What you said was the only reason people want him back is due to emotional attachment. I'm well aware of your views on Rafa and you're entitled to your opinion but say his Liverpool record was achieved at, say, Tottenham - you wouldn't think his was the most stand out cv of anyone obviously available? 

Wasn't aimed at you mate  but look back and they are there, right on cue.
Thing is nobody knows my views on Rafa now  because i made an error in judgement and they
Are not interested because of that. So best leaving it alone.

[shelovesyou]

If I did, it'd be perfectly understandable. But I don't. It's just I stopped being interested in you pontificating on our managers, let's see, three manager's back.

Contradiction if i ever saw one. Now lets leave it.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

Maybe it has been posted and maybe I already know but there are numerous posts which say things like, "we all know why Rafa won't get the job" could someone place on record here a definitive list of these reasons so we can take stock of whether they stand up to scrutiny. I've heard some things behind the scenes but I'm not that close now and we surely have enough informed people inputting into this forum to state once and for all the true situation as at May 2012.

apparently there is a quote that says that fsg , fenway or what ever they are called said "there are players on big contracts"....and lots put that down to rafa.
so they presume that rafa will only sign players on big contracts.

what they really meant was they saw scope to trim the wage budget like any owners should do.

what they failed to mention re rafa was he was pretty handy in increasing the value of players he bought in especially the bigger ones.

alonso...torres...mascherano.....god knows how much lucas is worth now but i rate him higher than mascherano and alonso.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

rafa is not out of this by any means .

fsg are not stupid
rafa can make their model work just more in his transfer dealings.

[muyuu]

I'm still hoping for the second coming of Rafa, but only if he gets proper backing.

Interviewing Martinez suggests we may not be having a stellar transfer season in terms of investment.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

they said they were interviewing 12 ffs.

for all we know they may have interviewed rafa simeone favre pottechino but we just dont know about it.

[rowan_d]

they said they were interviewing 12 ffs.

for all we know they may have interviewed rafa simeone favre pottechino but we just dont know about it.

I think Montse confirmed that Rafa hasn't been contacted

[KopMcGinty]

I'm still hoping for the second coming of Rafa, but only if he gets proper backing.

Interviewing Martinez suggests we may not be having a stellar transfer season in terms of investment.

Agreed on rafa but I think interviewing Martinez means fook all in terms of transfers.  If it is Martinez and they scrimp.. well they would have scrimped with anyone they hired; they are just as likely to spend big again IMO though.  That said, whoever comes in, if we don't spend a decent amount, you can be pretty sure the new guy agreed to it before taking the job.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

I think Montse confirmed that Rafa hasn't been contacted

yep on her twitter account for her foundation.

[MagicB8all]

rafa is not out of this by any means .

fsg are not stupid
rafa can make their model work just more in his transfer dealings.

Don't want Rafa in this unless they're 110% (yes I know) committed  to Rafa.