Topic: Roberto Martinez - Wigan Manager

[Resurrected]

When we look at Roberto Martinez, there's a tendency to look at just the results. Seriously, if i hear 26% win ratio again, i'm gonna blow fire out of my arse. He manages Wigan, for fuck sake, he's hardly gonna have a 75% ratio, is he.

But this is the problem, the only things we know about his strengths are what we see on the surface. Is he a good coach? Is he a good man manager? Is he a great tactician? None of us know one way or the other because he manages Wigan and the detail tends to get obscured by the shit.

If FSG's advisors (who probably know more about the game than us lot put together) think he's the best man then he's got my backing. Doesn't matter what my personal opinion is of him, you get behing the owners, the manager and the team or you take a walk.

[Jimmy Conway]

When we look at Roberto Martinez, there's a tendency to look at just the results. Seriously, if i hear 26% win ratio again, i'm gonna blow fire out of my arse. He manages Wigan, for fuck sake, he's hardly gonna have a 75% ratio, is he.

Wigan - Steve Bruce 33%
Wigan - Paul Jewell  43.6%
Swansea (Prem only) - Rodgers 31.6%

[Name Of The Game]

FSG dont have us days away from administration. and ONE sacking you don't agree with is not cause to compare them to the ultimate duo of c*nts.

you're saying you're backing Kenny over the club. Kenny himself said no one person is bigger than the club. so fucking listen to him.

Backing Kenny over the club? So the Americans are now the club are they? Liverpool FC, its fans and its legends are now no longer the club, but Liverpool is merely a play thing passed between some rich people and we should just always get behind them?

As for FSG not being as bad as H&G you are right. But he didnt say that did he, he said we should back the owners or take a walk. Which would mean a fucking lot of people would have taken a walk by now already.

[geoffstrong]

Someone do a quick summary of what has happened?

ok itks fighting over is it Roberto or Bredonado, Duncan Jenkins tweeting for fun, announcement friday perhaps and I had Sausage , Chips and Beans for my dinner, oh i forgot Rafa likes Lemon Sorbet

[ShibbyLFC]

Backing Kenny over the club? So the Americans are now the club are they? Liverpool FC, its fans and its legends are now no longer the club, but Liverpool is merely a play thing passed between some rich people and we should just always get behind them?

As for FSG not being as bad as H&G you are right. But he didnt say that did he, he said we should back the owners or take a walk. Which would mean a fucking lot of people would have taken a walk by now already.

You're right i made a bad conjecture from that statement. But so far FSG haven't done anything to have us turn on them. They are nowhere NEAR as bad as H&G and anyone claiming they are should have their head checked because they are dealing with some serious memory loss. ONE sacking we don't agree with is not cause for us to turn on them.

I still trust them to make the right (and consequently, the tough) decisions to take us forward. Because really, we don't know shit. Maybe Kenny staying would have been a disaster, maybe a success; maybe Rafa returning would have been a disaster, maybe a success; maybe Rodgers will be a success, but maybe a disaster. We don't know, nor are we in a position to make that call.

It's their job to make the tough decisions, and you will never have unanimous support for a tough decision, but it shouldn't stop you making it if you think it was right. If they think moving on from Kenny was the right call, we just have to trust it and see what happens, and I for one am glad they had the balls to make that decision and not shy away from it because some see Kenny as "unsackable".

[Kenny Red]

A lot of supporters believe that they got 5 of those decisions wrong and only the first one right.

And supporters have just as much right to an opinion as the 'professionals'.

Please detail your credentials, I'd love to see your footballing operations cv.

Have an opinion, but please don't be under the impression you know better. Beacuse I'll bet a pound to penny (Cecil excluded) that you dont know more than the people in charge of the club or those advising. For instance; Parry may have been a clown in our eyes, but he pisses all over anyone on this site in terms of real experience of running a football club and football as business, and the like of Dein and Barwick have forgotten more about football than any of us can ever hope to know.

No matter how limited their experience is or patchy they have been in thier success of making decisons, its a million times more than anyone posting on this site.  Being an expert in hindsight is really easy cos you already know the guaranteed outcome.

Here's an example: I believe We really should have tried to assassinate Hitler back in 30s and we could have prevented millions of deaths and a world war as Churchill and co go it wrong.

Does that mean i'm qualified to be military general now?

[the_red_pill]

I would be with Rodgers. His Swansea team play good football (certainly better than A.V.B. or Martinez) - imagine what he could do with us.

I think you have to give some credit where it's due- even though I'm not a fan yet of Martinez; but how much of that is down to having brought in the "right" players in the first place- after having identified them? I mean Rodgers did have a stint at Reading where he didn't have the right players and attitude and failed.

As far as I know, a large chunk of that squad was scouted and assembled by none other than Martinez and he "set them up" and got the right attitude in. After Rodgers left Reading, he just fell in at Swansea who were already beating teams left, right and centre and were well-known for their football at that point and continued Martinez's success.

Martinez has done the same with Wigan as he's done with Swansea- had the team playing good football and he's been relatively successful at both, which you can't say of Rodgers.

[vicgill]

When we look at Roberto Martinez, there's a tendency to look at just the results. Seriously, if i hear 26% win ratio again, i'm gonna blow fire out of my arse. He manages Wigan, for fuck sake, he's hardly gonna have a 75% ratio, is he.

But this is the problem, the only things we know about his strengths are what we see on the surface. Is he a good coach? Is he a good man manager? Is he a great tactician? None of us know one way or the other because he manages Wigan and the detail tends to get obscured by the shit.

If FSG's advisors (who probably know more about the game than us lot put together) think he's the best man then he's got my backing. Doesn't matter what my personal opinion is of him, you get behing the owners, the manager and the team or you take a walk.

If thatดs what you think I suggest you take up baseball

[Kenny Red]

If thatดs what you think I suggest you take up baseball

Vic can you tell me who is advising FSG then? Would you consider Dein and Barwick as inexperienced / incompetant in providing football consultancy and advice?

Cos I can gurantee (i actually know this for a fact) that both of them are being used by the club in this capacity.

Knowing this should the guy still go and follow baseball?

[ShibbyLFC]

edited. im an asshole.

[the_red_pill]

Just read ESPN are going to cover our US-friendlies. That would be great, since I've got ESPN on my Digital satellite package.

Just hope we don't boo the manager for marketing and glorified performances and so put unnecessary early pressure on him(remember Kenny last season?). If it's any of the 2 young managers, they might not take it too well. So please okes, whatever our reservations and grievances are, let's back our next manager.

[ShibbyLFC]

Just read ESPN are going to cover our US-friendlies. That would be great, since I've got ESPN on my Digital satellite package.

Just hope we don't boo the manager for marketing and glorified performances and so put unnecessary early pressure on him(remember Kenny last season?). If it's any of the 2 young managers, they might not take it too well. So please okes, whatever our reservations and grievances are, let's back our next manager.

anybody who boos our manager, whoever it may be, should stop supporting Liverpool.

[the_red_pill]

anybody who boos our manager, whoever it may be, should stop supporting Liverpool.

On the money.

[geoffstrong]

Edited anyone can make a mistake no problem now, but if you want to know about our real history read Vic's stuff

[Z e u s]

I still think it will be Martinez.

Just a hunch.

[cox3100]

any updates from dave whelan?

[Harinder]

There is no need for this thread to be derailed

There is no need for anyone to be so ignorant and to not know Vic Gill's history and hence saying things like he "doesn't know shit" really ought to think and know more about Liverpool Football Club than they think they do

[the_red_pill]

vic just knows better. it's shocking that he isn't involved in the business side of football. oh wait, it's not shocking at all, because he doesn't know shit, like the vast majority of fans.

That's hugely disrespectful to Vic mate. He knows more than most of us will about this club. Read up on him if you will.

EDIT: I've done the hard part:

In My Life - The Vic Gill Story
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=115020.0

[zero zero]

vic just knows better...

Ha ha priceless. You are very well informed for a 22 year old

[lfcderek]

Please detail your credentials, I'd love to see your footballing operations cv.

49 years following LFC - decent education - 38 years in business, hiring and firing and trying to maximize profit.

Have an opinion, but please don't be under the impression you know better.

When some of those decisions (e.g. selling to H&G, firing Rafa etc.) seem to be obvious mistakes? To many, not just me.
 
 Beacuse I'll bet a pound to penny (Cecil excluded) that you dont know more than the people in charge of the club or those advising. For instance; Parry may have been a clown in our eyes, but he pisses all over anyone on this site in terms of real experience of running a football club and football as business

You really are onto a loser backing Parry on this site I would think!

, and the like of Dein and Barwick have forgotten more about football than any of us can ever hope to know.

No matter how limited their experience is or patchy they have been in thier success of making decisons, its a million times more than anyone posting on this site.  Being an expert in hindsight is really easy cos you already know the guaranteed outcome.

Here's an example: I believe We really should have tried to assassinate Hitler back in 30s and we could have prevented millions of deaths and a world war as Churchill and co go it wrong.

Churchill & co (actually just Churchill) was warning about the rise of Hitler throughout the thirties - the 'professionals' ignored him.

Does that mean i'm qualified to be military general now?

[stevenseagal]

Well, I hope Roberto enjoyed his stroll with JWH anyway..

[Resurrected]

It seems that every time the new manager thread gets locked, the argument continues on this one.

I thought the whole point of this thread was some intelligent discussion about Roberto Martinez, his merits and his faults. Now we have personal arguments about who knows fuck all. This is just embarrassing. It's depressing.

Back to the original point, does anyone have any more info on his time at Swansea?

[Kenny Red]

Good cv, shame it has fuck all to do with football or sport in any way shape or form.

I have been follwing the club for just as long, live about a mile away from the club ( and always have) have Bsc, MBA and Phd in Business and work in very respectable and responsible job in this city, though i still dont know nearly as much about football as those i mentioned.

So dont make out that somehow your CV makes you qualified to make those decisions, because im afraid it doesn't, not even slightly.

But hey, you still convince yourself that your qualified and experienced to make the big calls in such an esoteric industry as football.

As I say, have an opinion. Though don't try to justify, or try to extol that you know more than those who are clearly do know the business (whether you like them on this site or not e,g Parry is irrelevant) as that is complete and utter horse shit.

[Tepid water]

Good cv, shame it has fuck all to do with football or sport in any way shape or form.

I have been follwing the club for just as long, live about a mile away from the club ( and always have) have Bsc, MBA and Phd in Business and work in very respectable and responsible job in this city, though i still dont know nearly as much about football as those i mentioned.

So dont make out that somehow your CV makes you qualified to make those decisions, because im afraid it doesn't, not even slightly.

But hey, you still convince yourself that your qualified and experienced to make the big calls in such an esoteric industry as football.

As I say, have an opinion. Though don't try to justify, or try to extol that you know more than those who are clearly do know the business (whether you like them on this site or not e,g Parry is irrelevant) as that is complete and utter horse shit.

What

The

Fuck


Are you lot bickering about.... Honestly

Give over

[ShibbyLFC]

Apologies to Vic.

Obviously mistook him for just any random fan. Thank you for keeping me informed. We all make mistakes.

My point, although rudely and disrespectfully conveyed, was that fan opinion is so divided and most fans are unknowledgeable about the business end of the game, that the fan base as a whole can't trustfully be considered to know more than profesional advisors.

[Fauxy]

Wigan - Steve Bruce 33%
Wigan - Paul Jewell  43.6%
Swansea (Prem only) - Rodgers 31.6%

The premier league may have been weaker when Bruce was in charge, the team may have had a bigger budget, they may have already had a very good squad in place when Bruce got there, the Wigan chairman may have invented a secret formula for his players to make them have a good season etc etc

People miss use statistics far too often, especially on this forum. Showing the statistic that Steve Bruce had a better win ratio means fuck all unless you back it up with other statistics that show its a fair comparison.

[lfcderek]

And back and forth we go.

Good cv, shame it has fuck all to do with football or sport in any way shape or form.

I have been follwing the club for just as long, live about a mile away from the club ( and always have) have Bsc, MBA and Phd in Business and work in very respectable and responsible job in this city, though i still dont know nearly as much about football as those i mentioned.

So dont make out that somehow your CV makes you qualified to make those decisions, because im afraid it doesn't, not even slightly.

But hey, you still convince yourself that your qualified and experienced to make the big calls in such an esoteric industry as football.

As I say, have an opinion. Though don't try to justify, or try to extol that you know more than those who are clearly do know the business (whether you like them on this site or not e,g Parry is irrelevant) as that is complete and utter horse shit.

This is a forum. We're here to give an opinion, read others opinions, form judgements etc. From your comments, it would seem that this is impossible if you haven't spent your working life in the business of football. i.e. Barwick, Dein.

MY original comments were

Should've fired Hodgson - did !

Should've re-hired Rafa - didn't
Should've Kept Kenny - didn't
Should've hired Rafa - haven't
Should've hired Van Gaal(as manager) - haven't
Should've realized that Martinez hasn't the experience - ?

FSG = Clueless ?

These are my opinions. Based on my own assessments and the the considered (at times!) views of other posters.

You seem to be saying that I, and others, should be deferring to those in 'authority'. That they invariably know best. And us lesser mortals should shut up and accept their every decision.

There are a number of very good posters on this site. Royhendo, Fat Scouser, El Loco, Degs etc. etc.

I appreciate their views and knowledge. Yet they don't work in the football business. So should their views be disregarded? Sometimes (IMHO) they too speak through their arses - and people will tell them so. 

So 'Kenny Red', of the 6 expressed opinions, which do you disagree with.

Perhaps we can discuss them?

[lfcderek]

Apologies to Vic.

Obviously mistook him for just any random fan. Thank you for keeping me informed. We all make mistakes.

My point, although rudely and disrespectfully conveyed, was that fan opinion is so divided and most fans are unknowledgeable about the business end of the game, that the fan base as a whole can't trustfully be considered to know more than profesional advisors.

Sorry mate - this is nonsense.

Like 'Kenny Red' you're implying that all of us on here can't have sensible opinions on business matters outside of our particular areas of expertise.

Bollocks!

I didn't need to be an expert in communications to know that the idea to drop the name 'Royal Mail' and change it to 'Consignia' (costing 10s of millions of ฃs) was borderline psychotic.

Common sense, although by no means common, does exist on this forum from time to time.

Mods please forgive me for going wildly off topic but these two posters seem to have forgotten what a forum is!

Edit
I seem to be driving 'Tepid Water' up the wall but this deference to 'authority' figures
is depressing in the extreme.

[Regi]

If he doesn't end up getting this job, I remain convinced Martinez will be in a big job, and be successful at it, within 3 seasons.
The game needs young managers like him willing to put their faith in good football, even with their back to the wall.
He is the sort of manager that commands repect because of his demeanour on and off the pitch...respectful and intelligent.
The fact he has been at the forefront of our search is also likely to have thrust him to the top of the list at more than a few Spanish clubs.
I coule easily see him at a top half La Liga side come August

[ShibbyLFC]

Sorry mate - this is nonsense.

Like 'Kenny Red' you're implying that all of us on here can't have sensible opinions on business matters outside of our particular areas of expertise.

Not at all. I'm just saying that the fan base taken as a whole has opinions so divided. And each of them think their opinion is the one that is best for the club. I'm sure there are many business-savvy people on here, but how many of them have experience working the business side of football? More specifically, how many of them are more experienced than the people advising the club on these matters (whoever those people may be-Dein thought to be one of them)?

[PAULG]

If he doesn't end up getting this job, I remain convinced Martinez will be in a big job, and be successful at it, within 3 seasons.
The game needs young managers like him willing to put their faith in good football, even with their back to the wall.
He is the sort of manager that commands repect because of his demeanour on and off the pitch...respectful and intelligent.
The fact he has been at the forefront of our search is also likely to have thrust him to the top of the list at more than a few Spanish clubs.
I coule easily see him at a top half La Liga side come August

you are doinga better job at selling Martinez than Dave Whelan, medicority sneaks through the backdoor whilst the house owners are debating its potential at the front door, been here before, ended in tears, oh yes and LFC isnt just any old top half la liga side.

[Regi]

you are doinga better job at selling Martinez than Dave Whelan, medicority sneaks through the backdoor whilst the house owners are debating its potential at the front door, been here before, ended in tears, oh yes and LFC isnt just any old top half la liga side.

Your opinion.
I tend to look beyond the bare results, even though these have been remarkable in recent months.
Makes me laugh when people describe as 'mediocre' the achievement of finishing 15th on a net budget of ฃ1million at the smallest club by a country mile in the league, all the while playing a brand of football which, when they got it right, was too hot for Arsenal, United us and Newcastle to handle.
Paint it whatever way you like to fit your agenda, the man's philosophy on football is to be admired and his success in getting a very average bunch of players to play so well is even more impressive.
And we are just a top half Premier League side at the minute...pretending otherwise is silly.

I assume you were comparing him to Hodgson with the 'been here before' comment.
If so, it just devalues your post completely.
There is simply no comparison between the two managers, in any way

[PAULG]

Your opinion.
I tend to look beyond the bare results, even though these have been remarkable in recent months.
Makes me laugh when people describe as 'mediocre' the achievement of finishing 15th on a net budget of ฃ1million at the smallest club by a country mile in the league, all the while playing a brand of football which, when they got it right, was too hot for Arsenal, United us and Newcastle to handle.
Paint it whatever way you like to fit your agenda, the man's philosophy on football is to be admired and his success in getting a very average bunch of players to play so well is even more impressive.
And we are just a top half Premier League side at the minute...pretending otherwise is silly.

I assume you were comparing him to Hodgson with the 'been here before' comment.
If so, it just devalues your post completely.
There is simply no comparison between the two managers, in any way

ha ha to quote you lad, its your opinion. Not here to say if your right or wrong, and im not dissing martinez  he is just not for us.  All of this pretending otherwise is bull shit,   Too hot to handle? Arsenal twatted them and to be fair we threw it away against them. They werent that fucking good mate.  Tell me if he hadnt betaen Arsenal, the Mancs and us would you still be advocating his appointment?  Plus no devalues of posts he is flavour of the months. If he was so good why werent we sniffing round last year after hodgson,  why does no other club want to take a punt on him? I also look beyond bare results and whilst i like his character he hasnt ever convinced me. I have seen his team put some of the worst performances in that i jhve ever seen in 30+ years of watching football.

[funkykingston]

Any idea why Martinez suddenly seems to be off the menu?

Seems to be the accepted view but I haven't seen why this is so? ...

[PAULG]

i just fucking give in,   yes i suppose what the fuck do i know, I have watched teh club for over 30 years im just a working class supporter what do my views and opinions matter,, seriously never thought i would say this but im seriously falling out of love with all this. The club is a shadow of its former self. Despite results etc we could always point to out tradition our fantastic support,  our tradition has been threw out of the window, and our support plummeted with the shocking treatement of Rafa Benitez , there was no way back then we set the precedent.  Its gone forever , and im gutted.  Leave it for teh Sky generation and the up and coming football manager addicts that think they know football.  fucking shambles the lot of it, but as i said    what does my opinion count for?  apart from ticket money over the course of the season.  Fuck Ayre and fuck the Yanks they are pretenders , pretending to care about this great institution and its fans.

apologies for teh negativity- mods feel free to ban me.

[bclfc]

Come over to the Rodgers thread, it's all puppies and giggles in there!   

[Clayton Bigsby]

Any idea why Martinez suddenly seems to be off the menu?

Seems to be the accepted view but I haven't seen why this is so? ...

Dropped a bomb on him to be the next boss so Im curious about this as well. FML 

[TheYashLFC]

Any idea why Martinez suddenly seems to be off the menu?

Seems to be the accepted view but I haven't seen why this is so? ...

Because it's a lot more fun to be moving onto a new managerial contender every 3-4 days 

[DutchRed]

Let's make up the RAWKscore. It's either Rodgers or Martinez. Who would you pick?

[Liverbird 2010]

Go then, give up. You're right, you know fuck all.

So fucking defeatist when you haven't the slightest idea what's going to happen.

Do you know whats going to happen? the lads hurt like a lot of us and is worried sick about the club you know fuck all either. im sick of people on here giving grief to genuine reds that are worried about the way the club has gone.