Topic: 18 + 5 we preach

[Shady77]

I believe the outcry over FSG on here stems from trust. You cant blame people for thinking the worst after what we went through with the last owners, its just human nature. But..... you can see a pattern developing, the rage and anger being directed towards them in the wake of Kenny's departure was misplaced and bordering on hysterical.

I read comments such as, "I feel physically sick" and "Today LFC died", in my opinion that is the same type of kneejerk comment that follows a bad game.
People need to look at the bigger picture, it has been three days since Kenny has gone, yet people are assuming FSG are letting us drift like a ship with no engine, yet behind the scenes interviews are being held, plans drawn up, contracts sorted, heads being hunted - and for what? to make Liverpool Football Club a major super power in football once more.

It might not sit pretty with some on here, but I trust FSG, and I am confident they only want the best for our club, so I say let them do their jobs and see what happens from there.

this

[The Grinch]

Just a point about this bit Al: I know some people who worked with Theo Epstein at the Yale Daily News and were at college with him there.

By all accounts, he is a bright guy but wasn't a people person (not loved by all anyway), not a talented a writer (he did the sports section) and did not give off this aura of genius/brilliance you describe. Kind of laconic/sarcastic slacker was the gist of his personality.
 
He got results but I get the impression that he gets far more credit for the Red Sox success than he maybe deserves.

I bow to your superior knowledge mate, I must admit I had absolutely no interest in Baseball at all until FSG took us over and the only reason I did any research was to try and understand FSG's methodology and the way they think. I may well of got a skewed perspective.

[coolbyrne]

Reaching the top four should never been seen as the holy grail. It should be seen as a stepping stone on the path to greatness. CL football = More money. CL football & more money = The chance to attract better players. CL football, more money and better players = gives us a better chance of winning the league title.

Not just the league title, but all titles. We can't do that the other way around by winning the Carling Cup.

[el diablos]

Reaching the top four should never been seen as the holy grail. It should be seen as a stepping stone on the path to greatness. CL football = More money. CL football & more money = The chance to attract better players. CL football, more money and better players = gives us a better chance of winning the league title.

That's nice on paper and may well work. I hope it does.


But its a little simplistic. Once you're in the CL and qualifying regularly as we were doing only a few seasons ago the priority is to remain there. There are no parachute payments for falling outside of the top four. As could be argued with Rafa's tenure the financial exigencies of the board mandated that he had to qualify for the CL and maybe he prioritised that over domestic cups. I also remember lots and lots of people complaining that he sacrificed league matches also just to progress in europe -  just to qualify from the group stage. The financial return from each stage of the CL is greater than for finishing between 2-4th in the league.


Now i certainly wouldn't be complaining if the next manager could deliver what Rafa did but its easy to see how financial targets dictate on-field aspirations. Settling for participation in lucrative events rather than aiming to win them seems to be the policy at Arsenal. But at least they have stability. Chelsea on the otherhand forego stability because they have independent wealth, that may change with FFP. But they do win cups. 


These are all real world considerations and i'm not for one moment going to underestimate the imperatives of financial requirements. My worry is that we'll end up as something in the middle of Chelsea and Arsenal - settling for 4th when we get it but with some managerial (coaching) upheaval along the way.


But we'll have to wait and see.


But back to the OP and the title of the thread which i think is incorrect. We don't 'preach' 18+5, its not a mantra or a philosophy. It was aimed solely at Man U. Our tradition of winning all cups has been vital in forging our history, identity, our relationships with a manager and the terrace folklore that ensued. It all helped create a fan culture that used to be famous and contributed to the success itself.

[Always_A_Red]

What I love is the fact that for some unknown reason, we as fans, expect to always be kept in the loop of whats going on. We demand the owners tell us what their planss are and what their ambitions are however all the while, we demand them to get back to the traditions of what the club was like 'back in the good old days' where nothing was disclosed to the fans, press, anyone.

Take the letter from SOS to the owners today as a prime example. Who are we to question what they do? We are we to tell them how to run their club? Who are we to tell them that they have to tell us everything? Who are we to tell them that their objective to make us able to challege for the title shouldn't be to get in the top 4 so that we can attract players like Aguero & Hazard??

I understand that we've been burnt once before and we're shy of being burnt twice, however we need to trust them to do the job that they set out to do and ultimately that is to get us be the greatest team in the world once again. If that means sacrificing the league cup and FA cup for a few years whilst we're concentrating on cementing ourselves in the top 4 and building a quilty side that able to challenge for the league and CL then im all for it! I can guarentee that once we do that, and we are attracting world class players, the other cups and success will follow too.

They are not saying that they do not want to win the FA cup or the carling cup, however they are sayining that at this moment in time, getting into the CL is the first goal to allow us to get to our ultimate aim. I see no harm in that and people need to realise that they are not H&G....they actually want to be the best! Now let them do that......

[The Grinch]

A company is supposed to make a profit. If they're doing a good job at it and the NYT made a profit then that's a good thing surely, if they're improving the financial muscle of Liverpool FC through more shirt sales/sponsorship.

My point is, where is your proof that profit was put ahead of long term success? Why would any reputable company be stupid enough to jeopardise long term with short term profiteering. H&G were corporate raiders, buy on debt and sell for profit. What proof is there FSG are the same?

Listen to the Language mate, how many times have they talked about winning things at Liverpool and compare that to Werner promoting the 39th game and Ayre talking about grabbing more of the overseas rights and talking about getting the Champions League dough.

Yes, the Marlins is troublesome history but aren't you ignoring the concept that people can learn from their past and not to repeat it? It might happen again but until I see evidence it is then I'm not going to jump to any conclusions.

Learning from your mistakes are you having a laugh what happened to Kenny being afforded the opportunity of putting right last seasons mistakes. Why are you prepared to bend over backwards for owners who have continually ballsed up since they arrived but show no such understanding for a man who has put trophy after trophy in the Clubs trophy cabinet.

[TSC]

Re the OP and importance of trophies, it's still great to see us sit at the 'top of the league' in England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_major_honours_won#England.27s_Most_Successful_Clubs

[RojoLeón]

I bow to your superior knowledge mate, I must admit I had absolutely no interest in Baseball at all until FSG took us over and the only reason I did any research was to try and understand FSG's methodology and the way they think. I may well of got a skewed perspective.

No worries. I know nothing meaningful about baseball. 

I do have the pleasure of knowing a lot of Yale graduates. Others have described the Red Sox situation as being a great blend of people and fan momentum. Each contributed towards a collective effort that amounted to more than the sum of it's parts. Rather than Epstein being some kind of genius that catalyzed the success, he fulfilled his role competently, even exceeding expectations: But that this was just his blending well with the team that Henry and Co assembled.

He also failed the California State Bar, which although tough and grueling, is successfully passed by all practicing lawyers in the State. Not proving that he isn't a genius, but not to his credit either. 

[RojoLeón]

Listen to the Language mate, how many times have they talked about winning things at Liverpool and compare that to Werner promoting the 39th game and Ayre talking about grabbing more of the overseas rights and talking about getting the Champions League dough.


Learning from your mistakes are you having a laugh what happened to Kenny being afforded the opportunity of putting right last seasons mistakes. Why are you prepared to bend over backwards for owners who have continually ballsed up since they arrived but show no such understanding for a man who has put trophy after trophy in the Clubs trophy cabinet.

Judge them by what they have done (and by what they do), not by what they say they have done and will do

[Vulmea]

Judge them by what they have done (and by what they do), not by what they say they have done and will do

err - have you kept up with recent events?

[RojoLeón]

err - have you kept up with recent events?

Yes. And I am not judging them kindly

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

It does not offend me. I just think you are stupid.  It makes me think you don't go to the games.  It makes me think you have never experienced the expectation of a trip away for a big cup final or the thrill of seeing your team lift the trophy and parade it in front of you.  It's the reason I go to the games. It is the reason I fell in love with the game.  It is the reason, to me, that Liverpool FC exist.

I don't think it's stupid at all. If we exist to win trophies we should have an idea about how we can afford the kind of players we need to go about doing that.

Isn't that why the stadium issue is so important to us?

No revenue = no trophies.

[liverpooll]

What I love is the fact that for some unknown reason, we as fans, expect to always be kept in the loop of whats going on. We demand the owners tell us what their planss are and what their ambitions are however all the while, we demand them to get back to the traditions of what the club was like 'back in the good old days' where nothing was disclosed to the fans, press, anyone.

Take the letter from SOS to the owners today as a prime example. Who are we to question what they do? We are we to tell them how to run their club? Who are we to tell them that they have to tell us everything? Who are we to tell them that their objective to make us able to challege for the title shouldn't be to get in the top 4 so that we can attract players like Aguero & Hazard??

I understand that we've been burnt once before and we're shy of being burnt twice, however we need to trust them to do the job that they set out to do and ultimately that is to get us be the greatest team in the world once again. If that means sacrificing the league cup and FA cup for a few years whilst we're concentrating on cementing ourselves in the top 4 and building a quilty side that able to challenge for the league and CL then im all for it! I can guarentee that once we do that, and we are attracting world class players, the other cups and success will follow too.

They are not saying that they do not want to win the FA cup or the carling cup, however they are sayining that at this moment in time, getting into the CL is the first goal to allow us to get to our ultimate aim. I see no harm in that and people need to realise that they are not H&G....they actually want to be the best! Now let them do that......

Exactly, although about the last point: Everybody knows getting in the Champs League is the key for Liverpool if they are going to become a top club once again. However, sadly the Carling Cup victory has deluded certain fans.

[oojason]

Exactly, although about the last point: Everybody knows getting in the Champs League is the key for Liverpool if they are going to become a top club once again. However, sadly the Carling Cup victory has deluded certain fans.

I see the Carling Cup victory and getting to the FA Cup Final as steps in the right direction, a base to kick on and take confidence from winning and getting to Finals of tournaments - and that experience and know-how from the Cup runs will stand us in good stead for if and when we do get back to Champions League. However, sadly this is lost on certain deluded fans.

[youll never walk alone it]

even if we do trust them what makes you think they will get the  next decision right?

[liverpooll]

I see the Carling Cup victory and getting to the FA Cup Final as steps in the right direction, a base to kick on and take confidence from winning and getting to Finals of tournaments - and that experience and know-how from the Cup runs will stand us in good stead for if and when we do get back to Champions League. However, sadly this is lost on certain deluded fans.

Good for you then. But I am not sure if that will help to attract quality players and thus improve our team greatly.

[oojason]

Good for you then. But I am not sure if that will help to attract quality players and thus improve our team greatly.

Actually, it'll be good for the club. As I posted in another thread - If we are missing out on our first choice players then young, up-and-coming, players may be the ones to go for - who will use the experience of playing Europa League footy at a club like Liverpool, who are competing for and winning honours, to become better players in their development - and make us a better team.

[jillc]

What I love is the fact that for some unknown reason, we as fans, expect to always be kept in the loop of whats going on. We demand the owners tell us what their planss are and what their ambitions are however all the while, we demand them to get back to the traditions of what the club was like 'back in the good old days' where nothing was disclosed to the fans, press, anyone.

Take the letter from SOS to the owners today as a prime example. Who are we to question what they do? We are we to tell them how to run their club? Who are we to tell them that they have to tell us everything? Who are we to tell them that their objective to make us able to challege for the title shouldn't be to get in the top 4 so that we can attract players like Aguero & Hazard??

I understand that we've been burnt once before and we're shy of being burnt twice, however we need to trust them to do the job that they set out to do and ultimately that is to get us be the greatest team in the world once again. If that means sacrificing the league cup and FA cup for a few years whilst we're concentrating on cementing ourselves in the top 4 and building a quilty side that able to challenge for the league and CL then im all for it! I can guarentee that once we do that, and we are attracting world class players, the other cups and success will follow too.

They are not saying that they do not want to win the FA cup or the carling cup, however they are sayining that at this moment in time, getting into the CL is the first goal to allow us to get to our ultimate aim. I see no harm in that and people need to realise that they are not H&G....they actually want to be the best! Now let them do that......

Well as it was the owners themselves who were full of promises when they first arrived, about keeping dialogue with the fan groups they can hardly be that surprised, when we have so many issues hanging in the air, that people are wondering what's going on. If you want, to keep every thing in house,  don't make rash promises in the first place.

[Alan_X]

Exactly, although about the last point: Everybody knows getting in the Champs League is the key for Liverpool if they are going to become a top club once again. However, sadly the Carling Cup victory has deluded certain fans.

Sorry mate but what is it with you? Who is deluded? No one I go to the match with or talk to. You really need to stop making shit up.

[TSC]

Exactly, although about the last point: Everybody knows getting in the Champs League is the key for Liverpool if they are going to become a top club once again. However, sadly the Carling Cup victory has deluded certain fans.

You don't half post some shit mate.  I take it from your grammar construction that you're not English speaking and that's fine.  But your views and content are atrocious.

[Vulmea]

What I love is the fact that for some unknown reason, we as fans, expect to always be kept in the loop of whats going on.

I'm not sure thats correct - what needs to be establishd is a degree of trust - the only trusted member of the management set up has been dismissed - he was employed by them less than 12 months ago and all we have in his place is a statement saying we have a plan and are taking advice.

They've said the same thing about the stadium, on Comolli's strategy.....

They have to earn our trust and they've provided little to no evidence for it-  with no actions to judge by except what by their own assessment are apparently errors - they need to show a degree of openess and honesty to help build it - firstly who was the advice from - who's actually running the football side of the club.

[Dave D]

However, sadly the Carling Cup victory has deluded certain fans.

Did you say the same things back in the early 80s?

I'm not sure what your game is this evening, but you seem to want to fight everyone on here. Maybe you're hurting over what has happened the past few days and that's fair enough.
Maybe it's something else, maybe you're on a wind-up, maybe you wan't to be called a cuntish, shit-for-brains, know-nothing supporter so you can gain the moral high ground. But luckily nobody has taken the bait.

So seriously, what is your game this evening? Is it anti-RAWK or just anti-Liverpool?

[RojoLeón]

You don't half post some shit mate.  I take it from your grammar construction that you're not English speaking and that's fine.  But your views and content are atrocious.

Harsh. But fair.

[Haemogoblin]

We've spent long enough now outside of the elite European competition for it to be a smart move to prioritise qualifying for it above trophies like the Carling Cup, at least for a season or so. If we have the means (i.e. the squad) to challenge on all fronts, then of course we'll do that, because we want to keep adding to our trophy cabinet. But if it entails falling away in the league as we focus all our energies on winning the domestic cups, then it's not a very clever thing to be doing season after season. There are limited resources here, and you have an opportunity to significantly improve that situation simply by competing in the Champions League, in a way that the Carling or even FA Cup will not help.
I want us to win more FA Cups, and Carling Cups, but I don't want us to become a domestic cup side, where those become our primary targets each season because we inwardly acknowledge we've fallen so far off the pace of the league frontrunners.

We seem to be bending over backwards here trying to dismiss the importance of our future involvement in something which quite clearly can be a serious attraction for top players, can increase transfer funds, can greatly help us to retain our most talented players who may feel their career stagnating here, and can keep us pushing toward 1st place in the league.
No one here who is suggesting finishing in the top 4 is of great importance to the club right now is saying they are satisfied to remain at that level once it is achieved. We get in there first, and then we push on, always aiming to finish as high as we possibly can. Once we have been able to assemble a truly competitive squad of players with the rewards of getting ourselves back among the established European elite, then we can be looking to smash all the cups again without shooting ourselves in the foot, league-wise. At the moment, something has to give with the fixture schedule and our comparitively small pool of players of genuine quality.


Please no one call me or fans with similar outlooks a shit supporter or an imbecile for honestly feeling this way at this moment in time. It's just an opinion. I certainly did not agree with the sacking of Kenny, and I have a hell of a lot of doubts now regarding our owners, but I feel whoever was in charge would be doing the right thing by setting league places 1-4 as a target range now. Aiming for 1st is madly optimistic, but it's what LFC playing in the premier league's all about, so we should always keep that spirit alive; 4th is a good bar to set so as not to remain complacent and resigned to our 6th-8th status. It shouldn't mean a good manager is fucked off immediately if they fall short for a season or 2, that's a daft way of running things. But it's a very sensible target, because the practical rewards can be so great.

The simplest point is, as much as we enjoyed ending our trophy drought, winning Carling Cups will do very little to get Liverpool beating the other big boys to the league title any time in the next 20 years. It patently did not 'engender a winning mentality'.

[DanielAggersEar]

even if we do trust them what makes you think they will get the  next decision right?

they are successfull.

they know what they are doing.

[jDJ]

I thought it was a fairly widely held belief that qualifying for the champions league improves your revenue and increases your chances of signing the calibre of player which can significantly improve the team.  It's only since Ian Ayre has vocalised this belief in the wake of the sacking of Kenny that everyone's acting as if there's been a great shift in emphasis.  Modern football is what it is, and success in the league is inextricably linked to qualifying for the champions league in my opinion - it's an ugly modern football world but our Americans didn't create it, they're just realistic enough to recognise it.

The self-same people criticising the Americans I'm sure defended Rafa to the hilt for putting out weakened sides in the cups.  So, what's changed?

And who said Kenny was sacked for not getting 4th?  Is it equally true to say he was sacked for getting only 52 points, the worst league points tally for half a decade after one of the biggest summer spends in our history.

There is something in between finishing in the top 4 and having an absolutely fcking appalling set of league results - having, say, a Newcastle-esque season.  I doubt very much Kenny would have been sacked if he'd presided over Newcastle's results.

Anyway, I'm deeply sceptical of the Americans, think it was a very poor footballing decision to sack him and showed a concerning lack of nous over how you build successful teams.  But I wish people would stop oversimplifying their view as 4th or nothing and no trophies when there's fck all evidence that's their view at all.  My view hasn't changed since Rafa was in charge and before and that's league is the priority, followed by Europe then the two cups - I thought most people shared that view, I'm surprised Rafa managed to maintain such support if everyone thought he was wrong to prioritise finishing 4th over the domestic cups.