Author Topic: Change and the inevitability of pain  (Read 5642 times)

Offline Rormac

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2012, 03:54:45 AM »
great post Keyo. 

Offline Manila Vanilla

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2012, 04:16:15 AM »
I actually think change started with the transfer of Christian Ziege. It was the first time we were publicly pilloried for using our financial muscle in an unethical way. We screwed Leeds over Harry Kewell and got our come-uppance in both deals. We flirted with the G14, a cartel designed to stop others from encroaching on our patch.

The watershed was the sale to Gillett and Hicks. From that point on, good owners or bad, we could only be run for financial reasons. Somebody had to find a way of extracting at least £300M from an, at best, breakeven enterprise. The routing of the cowboys was only ever going to be a Pyrrhic victory.

There's a lot of sense in having a rational plan and exercising financial common sense. But it also makes me look back on the complete lack of logic in my life.

Why accept a team that was thrust on me through an accident of birth? A team not long out of the Second Division and which had lost its first three home games. If I'd just supported the glorious double-winning side at Spurs my life would have been different....

I can now see that the club should have sacked Shankly after the abject FA Cup defeat at Watford in 1970. He'd had four years and failed miserably. We could have got Malcolm Allison and our history would have been different.

The manager panicked and threw a 20 year old from Scunthorpe straight into the first team. If he'd been any good he'd have been scouted at the age of five.

When we got rid of the manager we replaced him with the club physio. Where's the sense in that? We contravened all principles of Moneyball by paying top dollar for a 26 year old Scot, then made him player / manager before he'd even got his coaching badges.

We tore down fences and cancelled matches without regard to our contractual obligations to the Football League and the television companies.

We should have booed the team off the pitch at half-time in Istanbul. A lot of people had paid good money to see that humiliating capitulation.

What I've learned from the advertisers is that life should be lived through a lens. The important thing is to be seen to be "Witnessing History". Can you believe I left my camera at home for the St Etienne match? How can I prove to people that I was there? Mind you, it would have been difficult to get a steady shot as the people around me kept pushing and shoving.

I've also learned the importance of "What if you called it right....". I could be that demented Italian shouting "Yessss...." because I was clever enough to to call the score right after 60 minutes. If I'd been smart I'd have switched allegiance when the big money went into Chelsea, then Manchester City. I never bought a replica top, even when we were good. I missed out on impressing people by the fact that I'd called it right.

But I see things clearly now. There's no logic in paying young millionaires to kick a piece of plastic around. It only made sense if I projected my community's values onto them - loyalty, encouragement, patience. The only reason they reciprocated in the past was because Bosman wasn't around then.

Anyhow, I have to go now. "Which" magazine has named my washing machine as Best Buy and I'm going down to my local to wave the magazine over my head like a demented Italian. Because I called it right.....

Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2012, 04:31:17 AM »
Unbelievable level of drama queenery going on in here the last few days. I keep popping in to see if its calmed down but the fervour seems to be building

Offline royhendo

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2012, 06:40:14 AM »
I can recall Roy being against fan ownership. Well we have capitalist owners, enjoy the plastic flags.

Ehm, what?
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Offline mercurial

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2012, 07:21:20 AM »
Not sure how you have come to that conclusion. 

They have always said they want to win, they have sacked Dalglish (and previously Hodgson) because they weren't being successful.

They want success and if they get that they'll get maximum rewards, as financially they'll benefit most if we are at the top.

Winning is their main goal, they have always said that and I don't think we have seen anything to suggest otherwise.  They have been ruthless to try and make that happen.

Sporting success is something like winning the cup double in a single year, achieved only thrice before. Unfortunately, FSG would have got rid of Kenny even then per Ayre's interview. So really it was a run for 4th place. What if we had come in 5th? From sporting perspective what difference did it make. Assume we came in fourth, even then we may not have played CL if Chelsea win it today. So, all indication are that they want the CL money and they want the money by spending less than other teams. So they want a good business. I am not saying that the business model is bad. I do not want a debt ridden club. What I do not want is a club where sporting success is put behind financial success. That is the the cart before the horse. Also, what FSG are doing has a much more difficult path before it. If winning was the goal then Kenny would be here. Then we would be building a team. If being a financial good business is the priority then getting to CL is a priority as it will bring TV revenues. TV and media is where they can make the money. These folks do not want success, they want money. It took me a while to realize it and I was supporting them since they came in. It is not the sacking of Kenny. It is the small small things that they did from time to time which made me realize that.

LeBron james, reality TV, media rows and bad publicity, the LFC.tv, the twitter and facebook stuff. They know the media well and they will make money out of it. That is why CL is important. They have the global audience to reach out to. They want to make money from the aligned revenue streams. Their focus is not on the people at RAWK. They want the occasional fans, the eyeball grabs on TV and the club is giving that. I cannot put my finger on it now but somewhere deep in my heart I know that the way the approach things is not appreciative of the way big clubs approach football.


Kenny: "We play the way we want to play. We play to the style that suits us, no disrespect to other clubs but we don't focus on anybody else"

Offline jason67

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2012, 08:09:11 AM »
Great op, thanks for that.
Still don't buy the s*n. 12.09.12. JFT96.

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2012, 08:27:35 AM »
Or we'll fight for the way we want it to be - whichever way that is - its been largely the same fight for 20 years plus just different battlegrounds - Kobiyashi maru -

or as the nappy clad one said - be the change you want to see in the world

So Mote It Be.
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2012, 09:31:54 AM »
So if fans going to finals and seeing their team win a cup is of no importance compared to revenue from Tv rights, why not dispense with the supporters and just play behind closed doors they still get the worldwide audience they still flog merchandise to people who will never get to Anfield anyway so why bother!
After all for FSG our opinions, traditions, ethos are of no consequence at all unless we are part of the master plan and revenue is our only god.

You see people forget is what made us great was not just Shanks et al but also the passion on the Kop and elsewhere envied and respect by nearly every club in the world, this what made us a good investment to potential buyers now though the Kop is a soulless shell were singing is frowned upon, the ground is solely a source of revenue where a member of the staff was happy to tell a group of us on a tour that building corporate boxes are the way forward now and they need to build more!

Kenny was our last link with how this club was when it was a proper football club and not an accountants wet dream!
So yeah I will still follow with interest but some if not all the passion for this club and the game died last Wednesday so go on number crunchers parasites and capatalist thinkers do your worse because I have seen and experienced things that you will never comprehend !
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Offline regnaD kciN

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2012, 11:18:50 AM »
Not sure how you have come to that conclusion. 

They have always said they want to win, they have sacked Dalglish (and previously Hodgson) because they weren't being successful.

They want success and if they get that they'll get maximum rewards, as financially they'll benefit most if we are at the top.

Winning is their main goal, they have always said that and I don't think we have seen anything to suggest otherwise.  They have been ruthless to try and make that happen.

My thoughts exactly.  I simply cannot fathom the number of times I've read "the owners simply want to make money."  Let's be clear about a few things.

-- Henry and Werner have more money than they know what to do with.

-- If that wasn't enough for them, rest assured they could find lots of ways of making more that would be quicker, less risky, and involve a whole lot less effort than buying and running a Premier League football team (or, for that matter, a Major League Baseball team).

-- There's a bigger motivation for people like the FSG heads to own a big-time sports franchise than profit-taking: winning.   Making your club #1 in the land, the continent, or the world gives a thrill that piling another few million in the vault (on top of the other several hundred million they already have there) no longer can.  Being atop the sporting world is a major boost of ego-gratification that trading bonds (or whatever) simply cannot provide.  And there's more:  not just the thrill of winning, but of having won because you yourself were able to outthink the opposition, to find a new system, a new paradigm that provides success where those who came before you had failed, is the sweetest feeling for the powerful and highly-competitive.

-- From the way FSG ran the Red Sox, it is clear that they made winning a top priority -- and, in fact, were able to take the Sox to the world championship within a little over a  couple of years.  In doing so, they cleared out the old management and brought in young leadership (their new General Manager -- the equivalent of a DoF -- was only 28 when he was hired) with innovative approaches, and worked many of the principles of sabermetric research (misunderstood and wrongly labeled as "Moneyball" far too often here...but that is a subject for another thread) in the decision-making process.  The big thing to take away from this was that they achieved this championship -- which involved considerable cost in free-agent signings, restaffing, and so on -- with a franchise that was already selling out games and had a rich cable network.   (It also had a city -- hell, a six-state area -- of near-religiously-devoted, supporters who passed along the team's history, its past triumphs and more-recent tragedies, from father to son for almost a century.  Sound familiar?)  If Henry et. al. had merely wanted to make money, they could have sat back, kept the Sox competitive on a lower budget, made the playoffs (but rarely gone beyond the first round) on a regular enough basis to keep fans satisfied, and raked in the cash.  They didn't, and I see no reason to think that is their primary goal here.

-- What I do think is the primary goal of FSG is to build a new structure, a new way of doing business here, that can be shown to win out over the "old way" of doing business in the EPL.  Whether they succeed or fail is yet unknown; if they fail, they will be understandably reviled for years to come.  But, if they succeed?

-- Some have said, from what they perceive of FSG's plan, that the owners no longer believe "Liverpool FC exists to win trophies."  I would say otherwise -- that they see their goal is for us to win everything...and that includes the Premier League trophy, the UEFA Champions League trophy, and even the Club World Cup.  But, to win the Champions League, you have to qualify for the Champions League.  Hence the importance of finishing fourth.  Yes, there's a financial reward for making the CL, but to assume that the payoff is the owners' sole interest is missing the point.  Every one of  the "top four" is able to use that extra reward to build its player strength, to make a deeper run in the CL, and to hopefully win it (and the EPL title, obviously, as well).  This is investment that, otherwise, will have to come out of the owners' pockets -- and, more crucially, with the advent of FFP, might not be possible at all.  It isn't so much that there's a reward for making CL, but that there's almost a penalty for not making it.  Thus, the prioritization of finishing in the top four -- not so much as a repudiation of "winning trophies," but as a means of being able to win more, and bigger, ones.  Would LFC fans really be satisfied with merely winning the League Cup ever few years, and the FA Cup occasionally?  How many League Cups would you trade for one Istanbul?

-- Of course, as the OP noted, change brings pain.  Well, actually, it doesn't have to, but, in this case, it's the fact that change could only be implemented at the cost of one of the most beloved figures in LFC history.  If it had been anyone other than Kenny at the helm; if they had brought in a Roberto Martinez or Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas to succeed Hodgson back in January 2011, with similar results, would people really be devastated at his sacking?  Would there be the feeling that "The Liverpool Way" had somehow been permanently destroyed?

-- Some with knowledge of both franchises run by FSG have drawn a parallel between the decision to sack Kenny and that of relieving manager Grady Little of his duties after his poor decision-making, in many people's eyes, cost the Red Sox the 2004 American League Championship Series.  But there's another parallel that I think may hit closer to home:  the departure of Nomar Garciaparra a year later.  Garciaparra was both the biggest star on the Red Sox and had been a near-idol to New England sports fans for years.  However, by 2004, he was getting on in years and had been sidetracked by injuries, but was still considered -- not least by himself -- to be the center of the team.  When the 2004 Sox, built at great cost, stumbled out of the gate and were stuck well behind their archrival Yankees by mid-summer, FSG did the unthinkable: at the deadline, they  traded Garciaparra for a trio of role-players who they thought might be important to shoring up weaknesses of the team.  Reaction from the "Fenway faithful" and fans throughout New England was strongly negative; I remember many stories of parents reporting their children going to bed in tears that night because "No-mah" was gone.  Many speculated that the trade was a cynical move to reduce salary on an underachieving team, or maybe even "waving the white flag" and accepting mediocrity for the next few years at least.  But, in the weeks following the trade, something unexpected happened:  the role-players, indeed, started playing surprisingly crucial parts in the club's performance (almost as if the owners and the GM had spotted previously-unnoticed crucial weakness in the team and worked to plug the holes), the team went on a hot streak lasting the rest of the season, and  wound up winning Boston's first world championship in eighty-six years.  The anguish at the departure of Garciaparra was quickly forgotten.  I'd say that the rationale of FSG is to build a winner, sentimentality be damned, because championships wipe away the bitterness of emotional losses.  Might that be the case here?  Be honest now:  if LFC, under the new plan and new leadership, brings home a CL trophy and EPL championship in the next few years, if they keep LFC a power that's always among the elite in Europe and a threat to win the Premier League every season, are you going to nonetheless turn your back on the club because "it no longer follows The Liverpool Way?"  Experience dictates that most will not.

The bottom line in this matter is that one can agree with the OP that this is a clash of "faiths," with every bit as much chance for becoming a flashpoint of anger as clashes of world religions can.  However, let's be clear and realize that it's a clash between the "faith of tradition" versus the "faith of rationality," each having the same goal of making LFC the top club in England if not Europe, rather than a clash between a belief in sporting success versus a belief in financial success.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 11:30:38 AM by regnaD kciN »

Offline Pistolero

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2012, 11:24:16 AM »
about the only good thing to come from this week is the amount of superb, insightful and heartfelt posts that have appeared on here..

once again the RAWK scribes put the genuine Liverpool journalists to shame
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Offline GODS LEFT BOOT

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2012, 11:24:48 AM »
As long as we hold on to something - even if its just memories or hope then the real LFC will never die.

Most 'fans' get the agenda given to them by the media

Most owners are cold businessmen or rich playboys

That shouldn't stop the rest of us conducting ourselves in a way that Shanks would be proud of
If my assistant had not signalled a goal, I would have given a penalty and sent off goalkeeper Patr Cheh. he beeped me to signal the foul. The noise from the crowd  stopped me hearing it, I have been involved at places like Barcelona, Ibrox, Old Trafford, Arsenal, but I've never in my life been involved in such an atmosphere. IT WAS INCREDIBLE

Offline The 92A

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2012, 11:50:24 AM »


We should have booed the team off the pitch at half-time in Istanbul. A lot of people had paid good money to see that humiliating capitulation.


Beautiful mate.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 11:53:04 AM by The 92A »
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Offline Pistolero

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2012, 11:54:08 AM »
I actually think change started with the transfer of Christian Ziege. It was the first time we were publicly pilloried for using our financial muscle in an unethical way. We screwed Leeds over Harry Kewell and got our come-uppance in both deals. We flirted with the G14, a cartel designed to stop others from encroaching on our patch.

The watershed was the sale to Gillett and Hicks. From that point on, good owners or bad, we could only be run for financial reasons. Somebody had to find a way of extracting at least £300M from an, at best, breakeven enterprise. The routing of the cowboys was only ever going to be a Pyrrhic victory.

There's a lot of sense in having a rational plan and exercising financial common sense. But it also makes me look back on the complete lack of logic in my life.

Why accept a team that was thrust on me through an accident of birth? A team not long out of the Second Division and which had lost its first three home games. If I'd just supported the glorious double-winning side at Spurs my life would have been different....

I can now see that the club should have sacked Shankly after the abject FA Cup defeat at Watford in 1970. He'd had four years and failed miserably. We could have got Malcolm Allison and our history would have been different.

The manager panicked and threw a 20 year old from Scunthorpe straight into the first team. If he'd been any good he'd have been scouted at the age of five.

When we got rid of the manager we replaced him with the club physio. Where's the sense in that? We contravened all principles of Moneyball by paying top dollar for a 26 year old Scot, then made him player / manager before he'd even got his coaching badges.

We tore down fences and cancelled matches without regard to our contractual obligations to the Football League and the television companies.

We should have booed the team off the pitch at half-time in Istanbul. A lot of people had paid good money to see that humiliating capitulation.

What I've learned from the advertisers is that life should be lived through a lens. The important thing is to be seen to be "Witnessing History". Can you believe I left my camera at home for the St Etienne match? How can I prove to people that I was there? Mind you, it would have been difficult to get a steady shot as the people around me kept pushing and shoving.

I've also learned the importance of "What if you called it right....". I could be that demented Italian shouting "Yessss...." because I was clever enough to to call the score right after 60 minutes. If I'd been smart I'd have switched allegiance when the big money went into Chelsea, then Manchester City. I never bought a replica top, even when we were good. I missed out on impressing people by the fact that I'd called it right.

But I see things clearly now. There's no logic in paying young millionaires to kick a piece of plastic around. It only made sense if I projected my community's values onto them - loyalty, encouragement, patience. The only reason they reciprocated in the past was because Bosman wasn't around then.

Anyhow, I have to go now. "Which" magazine has named my washing machine as Best Buy and I'm going down to my local to wave the magazine over my head like a demented Italian. Because I called it right.....

cracking post MV
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2012, 12:02:47 PM »
Ehm, what?
Think I was wrong on that Roy. Re-read the OP in a less inebriated state. Have to agree with the point about fans being emasculated. For many of us who can't get to see the team play as much as we would like, 2010 and getting rid of the cancers felt empowering, we felt a stronger connection to the club, and it led to a strong sense of community. It felt like a new dawn, in fact it has been a false one. We are just viewing figure stats for sponsors to sell their products to.

FSG came in with promises about listening to the fans, having a dialogue with SoS, how quickly that has turned to dust, with Henry choking on his cornflakes and a Christmas ruined! No movement on fan ownership either.

The saddest thing about the last week is the polarisation within the support. The older fans are increasingly alienated by what has transpired. In many ways they are the last connection the club has to the Liverpool Way. I hope we don't lose them, they are a vital living link to our glorious past. Too much change too quick, and we could lose it all.
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Offline matt120979

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2012, 01:01:22 PM »
I actually think change started with the transfer of Christian Ziege. It was the first time we were publicly pilloried for using our financial muscle in an unethical way. We screwed Leeds over Harry Kewell and got our come-uppance in both deals. We flirted with the G14, a cartel designed to stop others from encroaching on our patch.

The watershed was the sale to Gillett and Hicks. From that point on, good owners or bad, we could only be run for financial reasons. Somebody had to find a way of extracting at least £300M from an, at best, breakeven enterprise. The routing of the cowboys was only ever going to be a Pyrrhic victory.

There's a lot of sense in having a rational plan and exercising financial common sense. But it also makes me look back on the complete lack of logic in my life.

Why accept a team that was thrust on me through an accident of birth? A team not long out of the Second Division and which had lost its first three home games. If I'd just supported the glorious double-winning side at Spurs my life would have been different....

I can now see that the club should have sacked Shankly after the abject FA Cup defeat at Watford in 1970. He'd had four years and failed miserably. We could have got Malcolm Allison and our history would have been different.

The manager panicked and threw a 20 year old from Scunthorpe straight into the first team. If he'd been any good he'd have been scouted at the age of five.

When we got rid of the manager we replaced him with the club physio. Where's the sense in that? We contravened all principles of Moneyball by paying top dollar for a 26 year old Scot, then made him player / manager before he'd even got his coaching badges.

We tore down fences and cancelled matches without regard to our contractual obligations to the Football League and the television companies.

We should have booed the team off the pitch at half-time in Istanbul. A lot of people had paid good money to see that humiliating capitulation.

What I've learned from the advertisers is that life should be lived through a lens. The important thing is to be seen to be "Witnessing History". Can you believe I left my camera at home for the St Etienne match? How can I prove to people that I was there? Mind you, it would have been difficult to get a steady shot as the people around me kept pushing and shoving.

I've also learned the importance of "What if you called it right....". I could be that demented Italian shouting "Yessss...." because I was clever enough to to call the score right after 60 minutes. If I'd been smart I'd have switched allegiance when the big money went into Chelsea, then Manchester City. I never bought a replica top, even when we were good. I missed out on impressing people by the fact that I'd called it right.

But I see things clearly now. There's no logic in paying young millionaires to kick a piece of plastic around. It only made sense if I projected my community's values onto them - loyalty, encouragement, patience. The only reason they reciprocated in the past was because Bosman wasn't around then.

Anyhow, I have to go now. "Which" magazine has named my washing machine as Best Buy and I'm going down to my local to wave the magazine over my head like a demented Italian. Because I called it right.....


Stunning post. Thank you.
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Offline E2K

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2012, 01:14:18 PM »
Bang-on Roy. Nodded my head the whole way through that. The last paragraph especially hits on the central issue as far as I'm concerned:

So either we'll take it on the chin and tacitly consent to the herding, or we'll jack it all in and change the way we relate to the club. Either way, things will be different. The whole thing will become that little bit more plastic. And we'll sing about history and the shortcomings of other fans, but in reality we'll find ourselves becoming more and more like them.

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Offline E2K

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2012, 01:18:36 PM »
Walk tall, or baby don't walk at all...
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Online Peter McGurk

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2012, 01:49:42 PM »
On the face of it, this is the wholesale dumping of the traditions and values of the club - dumping the reason why we support this club. The Liverpool Way has kept the city and its families going through rough times and worse. It's no exaggeration to say that it really is a way of life. For the ‘traditionalists’, a loss of this magnitude is a bit more than ‘unsettling’.

We can ‘rage against the dying of the light’. Fight the good fight. Hold tight to our principles... and get buried in the inevitable tide. Or, accept the inevitable. Realise that that was then, this is now. Put the memories away and cherish them and think ourselves lucky to have them.

The last couple of days tells me that the Liverpool Way has been a dead man walking for the past 21 years. Dragging us back. To paraphrase, misquote and misconstrue Marina Dalglish, it’s been like a wake but the corpse keeps chipping in.

We can throw in the towel - leave it to the kids. Or, accept that it’s not working and never will again and get ready for new ways. We’ll have to wait and see whether we can stomach the difference and whether it brings ‘success’.

We have to hope that the fear of change is only as much as everyone felt when Shanks came.

.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 06:11:28 AM by Peter McGurk »

Offline Koplass

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2012, 02:09:45 PM »
As far as I’m concerned there are two types of Liverpool fan. Some of us support Liverpool because of the club’s core values; patience, respect and understanding. We started supporting the club because we grew up in the city, or our parents did, or we watched on from afar and appreciated the way the club handled itself. If I could summarise what Liverpool Football Club means to me, it is a side that have been successful on the basis of solidarity, strength in adversity and hard work. It is a pragmatic old club that won title after title not because of glamorous individual talents or romantic fairytale stories woven by the media, but by knuckling down, sticking together and fighting for every inch of football pitch. The supporters give everything and the players and manager must do so in return, they are what we refer to as ‘the holy trinity’.

Those core values are extremely important to one half of the Liverpool support. In fact, they mean everything, because they’re what got us through our darkest hours, as well as our most glorious. Without these values the club represents nothing more than a name, because without them it doesn’t represent a family or a community. Liverpool is a city that embodies those characteristics that I talk about, it’s a city that has had to dust itself down and carry on fighting more times than I care to remember. Perhaps people outside Britain will struggle to understand that, but it’s been trotted out a lot over the past few years that Shankly was a socialist, and Liverpool is a city that is imbued with left-wing rhetoric. This isn’t a great coincidence, Scots and Scousers have a lot in common, and a football club works best when it adequately represents the people it serves.

This is why a manager like Roy Hodgson struggled to fit in at a club like Liverpool. I don’t know the man’s personal political beliefs but I know that unity and shared responsibility are not words that are familiar to him. At Liverpool you have to be a backs-to-the-wall, confident under pressure, steely, determined character. But above everything, you must know who it is you answer to; it’s not the board, it’s not the media, it’s not the League Manager’s Association, it’s the fans. This is something that all of our greatest managers understood, Kenny Dalglish perhaps more than any. 

Now, this is where the other type of Liverpool fan comes in, and these people only seem to support the name. They started supporting the club because they saw the team winning trophies, or they liked the colour of the shirt, or their dad was an Evertonian and they wanted to piss him off. These people are interested in success and success only. Supporting a club that has such a strong ethos is merely a by-product of success in their eyes, not the foundation for it. And if they had to scrap every principle that we hold dear in the name of a Premier League trophy, they would do it. To them, Liverpool is an interchangeable model, and if you swapped Anfield for Ewood Park it wouldn’t really matter because it’s only the name they support.

They reflect the post-Thatcherite society we live in. The free-market, globalised, neo-capitalist, success at all costs world that many of us have been born in to. To them, getting one over on their opposition supporting mates is the greatest result of success, not the collective effort that got us there in the first place. For them, it’s not about working as one for a greater good and achieving things as a unit, but having success handed to them on a plate and lauding it over everyone else. A few years in the shadows dents their egos so much that they will happily sell their heroes out. And after watching Man City win the league off the back of millions of pounds of investment, I guess it’s hard to blame them. 

And really it’s impossible to explain to an American, even an American who owns their most Liverpool-esque sports team, what this club means to its people. Football isn’t like American sports and our clubs aren’t akin to their franchises. They come from a culture so brainwashed by capitalism that sentiment and patience are words they must sneer at. How can you make a billionaire from New England understand what a football club means in a city that had nothing for decades? How do you explain the nuances of a group of people who have often lived outside of the establishment, in a social, political and footballing sense? How do you justify the bond between a man like Dalglish and thousands of people who have never met him? This isn’t America, we don’t watch our football team lose a game and cheer ourselves up by watching our baseball team or basketball team or hockey team win. This is our everything, and whilst I admire their determination to get us winning again, I’m not sure their definition of success is quite the same as ours.     
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2012, 02:26:52 PM »
Maybe it’s as much as everyone felt when Shanks came.

Was thinking the same. Recall an interview with Robinson where he paid tribute to the work of Shanks and Eric Sawyer before he came into the club. So would that be Liverpool F.C Version 3.0 in the past 60 years?

We've kicked against it for so long whilst also adapting ourselves too. Slowly perhaps at times, but we have adapted so the change has been happening. Just maybe we're now being forced to face the situation full-on? What Ayre said isn't really new about priorities. Moores and Parry called it the 'virtuous circle'. What is perhaps newer is the blatant statement and the unwillingness to give a manager time. Though we can point there to Rafa who was gone after one season when he fell short too (amidst other reasons).

We're lacking leadership at the moment. Ayre can't open his mouth publicly without putting his foot in it (maybe there's a counter argument that he's reading from a script he didn't write there?). Maybe he now needs to grow into the role. My concern is that we've traditionally looked to the manager to provide the leadership. Emasculate him too much, set up any potential source for conflict within the club's structure, and it won't happen even if they find the perfect manager for us.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2012, 02:51:44 PM »
Quality

YNWA - except for the mad part about the washing machine


We can ‘rage against the dying of the light’. Fight the good fight. Hold tight to our principles... and get buried in the inevitable tide.

.


isn't that what life's all about big man?

hold tight to your principles or go and buy some different ones?

there's no real rational approach to football is there?  22 lads kicking a bit of leather about - wtf - how can anyone get passionate about that? But its about being part of something bigger isn't it?

Its about how we support not about what the board do isn't it?
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Offline E2K

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2012, 03:15:10 PM »
To them, getting one over on their opposition supporting mates is the greatest result of success, not the collective effort that got us there in the first place.

Your entire post is fantastic, but I find this part in particular scarily accurate. I've seen and heard so many Liverpool fans reacting to jibes from fans of other clubs by simply shrugging and meekly replying "I know..." and the thought has crossed my mind many times that their central reason for wanting the club to do well has become the prospect of going into work with something to gloat about to people whose opinions shouldn't matter in the first place.
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Offline Koplass

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2012, 03:45:59 PM »
Your entire post is fantastic, but I find this part in particular scarily accurate. I've seen and heard so many Liverpool fans reacting to jibes from fans of other clubs by simply shrugging and meekly replying "I know..." and the thought has crossed my mind many times that their central reason for wanting the club to do well has become the prospect of going into work with something to gloat about to people whose opinions shouldn't matter in the first place.

Yeah, this really became noticeable to me when I started using Facebook and I noticed status updates about football that were far too frequent to just fall in the category of 'banter'. And it's not just Liverpool fans, it's fans of every club. It feels like they're more concerned with other teams than their own, to them football is completely tribal, and it's about their tribe being better than everyone elses.

I was talking with a rugby fan last night about the pros and cons of football fans being segregated, where rugby is unsegregated. Now I love the fact that football is segregated, not because I hate fans of other teams or because I'm worried about hooliganism, I love it because I love being surrounded by fellow reds. I love that feeling when you're in the middle of the away end and a really loud rendition of The Fields Of Anfield Road starts up and the 2000 people around you are singing and clapping so loudly that you can't even hear yourself think.

There's such a sense of pride in that, and it's not aggressive and it's not about singing 'you're getting sacked in the morning' to another manager or 'your support is fucking shit' to another set of fans. It's about singing of our glories, our achievements, our heroes and simply not giving a damn about any other club or what they think. It's not about throwing your toys out of the pram because United fans are singing about winning more league titles than us, that's just something you deal with because you know deep down that a football club is about more than its roll of honours. You just sing louder and work harder and hope that one day we'll be ahead of them again.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 03:47:30 PM by Koplass »
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2012, 04:07:05 PM »
As the saying goes time waits for no man? guess same could be applied to the club, football will not wait around for Liverpool to build on old values, which sadly means nothing in this day and age. Either we move the times or stand still and complain about how much football has change.

The phrase is 'time and tide wait for no man' and was written at a time when time and tide (season) were circular. Time went round not forward and the seasons repeated every year. It just means you need to do things at the right time and not delay, nothing to do with the modern perception of the relentless progress of modernity...

But anyway, what do you man by 'football' moving on? And what exactly are the old values that we need to dump to allow the club to move on?

'Moving with the times' is an easy thing to say but what exactly does it mean?
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2012, 04:10:16 PM »
In my opinion the rot goes back to the day Sir John Smith retired and Noel White took over as Chairman in 1990. I believe that Sir John as a particularly able businessman would have embraced the premier league and enabled us to remain financially competitive, keeping up with the likes of Manchester United.

Sir John (again in my opinion) would either have supported Dalglish when he was near to a nervous breakdown or asked him to come back when Souness was judged to have failed. He would not have vacillated like David Moores did every time he needed to make a major decision.

We are in the position we are in because of 15-16 years of weak leadership and an inability to provide Liverpool Football Club with the necessary resources of all types to compete at the very top level. Because David Moores and Noel White did not possess the required skills and talents to allow us to EVOLVE into the type of football club that we as fans would still feel we belong to and yet still remain competitive we now face a major period of potentially dramatic change; we do not have the time for a gradual evolution drastic changes are now the only option.

I am hoping that Henry and Werner are as honourable and decent as Sir John and posses the necessary talents and skills to make us a top flight club once more. I suspect that they MAY be all of that but we really have no choice but to wait and watch and hope.

Offline coolbyrne

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2012, 04:23:20 PM »
My thoughts exactly.  I simply cannot fathom the number of times I've read "the owners simply want to make money."  Let's be clear about a few things.

[snip]

The bottom line in this matter is that one can agree with the OP that this is a clash of "faiths," with every bit as much chance for becoming a flashpoint of anger as clashes of world religions can.  However, let's be clear and realize that it's a clash between the "faith of tradition" versus the "faith of rationality," each having the same goal of making LFC the top club in England if not Europe, rather than a clash between a belief in sporting success versus a belief in financial success.

I don't have much to add to this except to say this is a wonderful, articulate post that gets to the heart of what I think FSG are trying to accomplish.
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Offline Asam

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2012, 04:54:44 PM »

As a supporter all I want is for my team :

-Play fluid, exciting, attacking football
-Compete & win the major trophies
-I want to see players in the Red shirt who are made of the "right stuff".
-I want the manager to be able to inspire

As along as the team is winning & playing well nobody will give a shit, this is true of sports across the world & FSG know this better than anyone else.





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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2012, 05:36:24 PM »
Koplass, that's a brilliant post.
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Offline royhendo

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2012, 05:41:03 PM »
And Peter's too.
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2012, 05:41:03 PM »
hold tight to your principles or go and buy some different ones?


Shanks had time. For today, he didn’t even do that well. It was Bob who reaped the reward and then Joe and then Kenny. Shanks’ world of self-reliance, responsibility and hard work has been watered down and down at every step since. It’s wobbled and wavered, bubbled up now and then. Rafa at least read the road but in the face of dramatically changing times and less-principled competition, it's essentially come all the way down to a blame-everyone-else Hodgson.

We’ve kept the faith. We kept our principles. We got Kenny back. We dreamed again and we had songs to sing again but now, there’s no time for the old and patient way. Thanks to those who can drop billions and not look back, there’s no time. Miss out on the money once ok. But twice? three times? four times? There’s no road back.

That way is all in the past. It’s had its day and that day’s gone. Memories to be treasured. If  ‘Liverpool Football club exists not to make money, it exists to win trophies [including domestic cups] and be a source of pride for its supporters. It serves no other purpose‘, we may not exist to make money but we need money now to compete now.

In Shanks’ day that was within the pocket of local businessmen. Not now. But it doesn’t mean we have to forget our principles. It doesn’t mean the club doesn’t have to work hard or the players have to play with heart or the supporters don’t need to belt out YNWA at half-time in Istanbul either.

I’m beginning to think that Shanks would have seen that too even though I can feel the dark side calling as I say it.

.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 09:05:51 AM by Peter McGurk »

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2012, 06:05:00 PM »
I'm beginning to think that Shanks would have seen that too even though I can feel the dark side calling as I say it.

.


suggested in the auld arse we needed a middleclass Shankly and Vic quite rightly put me in my place - 'no such animal'  and the horror of a Tony Blair style manager playing to sound bites, drifting on the wind, with no conviction other than to feed their own ego hit me like a hammer.

Shanks did compromise though even if just to bite his tongue in the board room - I think there are still men of integrity and passion out there that could manage us, earn our respect and lead us through the souless waste I'm just not sure that fits the FSG job description, in fact I've still to be convinced its not specifically excluded   
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2012, 06:31:36 PM »
suggested in the auld arse we needed a middleclass Shankly and Vic quite rightly put me in my place - 'no such animal'  and the horror of a Tony Blair style manager playing to sound bites, drifting on the wind, with no conviction other than to feed their own ego hit me like a hammer.

Shanks did compromise though even if just to bite his tongue in the board room - I think there are still men of integrity and passion out there that could manage us, earn our respect and lead us through the souless waste I'm just not sure that fits the FSG job description, in fact I've still to be convinced its not specifically excluded

Not really about compromise. More about working in the world you're in. Would you say Barca was an unprincipled club? Or Bayern? They make an awful lot of money to compete with that's not directly from football - from selling shirts and promoting Audi (well, that and 27 other sponsors). Would you have to Google who their manager was? Clutching at straws now... but what a footballing board that is.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 06:33:09 PM by Peter McGurk »

Offline jason67

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2012, 06:54:07 PM »
   
Great post, thanks. It reminded me so much of this one by BCCC a while back.

Quote
Unfortunately FS the majority (and that's a gut feel) of people on this site don't actually care. If you took the internet away from them they would drift into something else with just a passing glance at Liverpool Football Club. They have no connection, no ties its just somewhere to vent their frustration when things don't go their way. They hate the fact that their other mates equally as disconnected with their respective football clubs take the piss out of them at work, down the pub or in cyberspace.

It's about them not about anything or anyone else. They're only interested in bragging rights and don't care enough to get behind the club. I'm not sure whether its a shift in society where currently most things can be bought and therefore the frustration that football success can't be (ask city fans this morning) brings mass impatient outpourings on the boards.

Whatever it is it's shite, we're only 90mins away from a pop at the biggest cup competition in the world that arguably back in the day was considered more important than winning the league by many. If that can't bring people to put aside their frustrations and get behind the team then nothing will. Funny thing is I now know what the reaction will be to phase 3 when we just miss out on the title because lack of experience of a run in will take its toll. We have to experience failure before we achieve success because that's where the learning is - you can't have one without the other. People just think they can.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2012, 07:31:33 PM »
Not really about compromise. More about working in the world you're in. Would you say Barca was an unprincipled club? Or Bayern? They make an awful lot of money to compete with that's not directly from football - from selling shirts and promoting Audi (well, that and 27 other sponsors). Would you have to Google who their manager was? Clutching at straws now... but what a footballing board that is.

'working in the world you are in'  is the very definition of compromise isn't it? :)

interestingly two fan 'owned' clubs  - whether people believe it 'works' does not concern me - what I believe it does do is provide a sense of engagement and identity for the punters - something LFC supporters have created despite the reality of our ownership situation even in the 60's.  Its the same type of mentality which says ok we are in England but we aren't really English -  - the holy trinity never covered writing cheques it was always just a necessary evil - of course some would say we are delusional and self harming........
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Offline keyo

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2012, 11:52:47 PM »
Unbelievable level of drama queenery going on in here the last few days. I keep popping in to see if its calmed down but the fervour seems to be building
out of interest, what do you want from the club? How does the changes resonate with or impact on you?
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Offline Hinesy

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2012, 01:21:56 AM »
First of all I don't think any of us that write about the passing of an older way, want anything less than success for Liverpool. Just before Kenny was sacked, there were a couple of threads about "Do you want beautiful football, or winning football" and in some respects that's where the big fracture line in supporters is now:Modern supporters mistakenly thinking, "Do you want us to win, or do you want us to do things the Liverpool Way, the old way, out of loyalty and sentiment." I feel that a lot of modern supporters, in this thread and others are saying we have to move with the times and so forth; that FSG want success and us ol' traditionalists are fearing The Brave New World etc.

Well, the OP isn't just about that for a start, its an elegy in a way to the passing of the old way Liverpool was run.
Now some of us mourn it, some of you praise that move into the future.

But this is the point I want to make:

You can hold both views similtaneously. I can promise you there are fewer more hardcore wanting victory fans than RoyH or I. I watched us win 1-0 endless times in the 70's+80's, hard ground out ugly football. As Rushian writes on Twitter tonight: its not the sentiment that counts its the cold hard reality of the history book.

You see, I believe Liverpool is still a special club, a unique club that still has an aura of being 'different' to the other football clubs. Utd were the glam team, Spurs or Arsenal the fancy dans and we were the club that did things the 'right' way. And I'm gutted that that 'aura' is disappearing. In the name potentially of being more successful ie two cup finals and one win isn't enough for a season. Its now or never.

Well, please don't for one minute confuse sentimental nostalgic harking back to a time when loyalty and continuity were key; with an acceptence of poor playing, lacklustre football and never mind, we've got a legend in charge. The Boot Room worked. If it hadn't, it wouldn't have gone down in history as the nucleus of a powerhouse footballing club.

This isn't about Kenny's sacking, it isn't really about the manner in which he went, the OP and mindset of many of us is that the club we love and cherished because of its special-ness has just lost a great deal of that uniqueness. We'll be there cheering and shouting and singing and laughing at the good times and the bad. Doesn't mean we can't have a minute's silence for what we grew up with. Doesn't make us fuddy duddy Luddites.

I know my support was forged in the heat of 70's fighting football, disasters and tragedies, championships lost in the last minute and still we applaud them, managers who built dynasties leaving and dying, resigning through the sheer weight of grief and so on...

For me, Liverpool 2.0 started with Houllier. Liverpool 2.1 or 3.0 whatever, is starting now. But I'm not entirely convinced FSG aren't about to throw the baby out with the bath water. I remember Souness trying to bring in a modern culture to the club when he arrived. Couldn't do it. Too much too soon. And whilst City's modern approach of a person for each role, you still need a manager who can lift a team at half time with a rousing speech, who has the players' respect and knows their football. How can you ever reconcile these exclusive things: A democracy led by a dictator...

I don't doubt for one minute FSG want the club to be successful, for whatever reason. Please don't doubt that we don't get that. But I know that the traditions that this club made its name on, worked. And I'll be damned if I can't mourn its passing and raise a glass to that world I grew up with.
You can have it both ways.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:56:09 PM by hinesy »
Yep.

Offline keyo

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2012, 01:51:35 AM »
In my opinion the rot goes back to the day Sir John Smith retired and Noel White took over as Chairman in 1990. I believe that Sir John as a particularly able businessman would have embraced the premier league and enabled us to remain financially competitive, keeping up with the likes of Manchester United.

Sir John (again in my opinion) would either have supported Dalglish when he was near to a nervous breakdown or asked him to come back when Souness was judged to have failed. He would not have vacillated like David Moores did every time he needed to make a major decision.

We are in the position we are in because of 15-16 years of weak leadership and an inability to provide Liverpool Football Club with the necessary resources of all types to compete at the very top level. Because David Moores and Noel White did not possess the required skills and talents to allow us to EVOLVE into the type of football club that we as fans would still feel we belong to and yet still remain competitive we now face a major period of potentially dramatic change; we do not have the time for a gradual evolution drastic changes are now the only option.

I am hoping that Henry and Werner are as honourable and decent as Sir John and posses the necessary talents and skills to make us a top flight club once more. I suspect that they MAY be all of that but we really have no choice but to wait and watch and hope.

Agree entirely and believe this is the main source of our failure over the years
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Offline keyo

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2012, 01:55:25 AM »
As a supporter all I want is for my team :

-Play fluid, exciting, attacking football
-Compete & win the major trophies
-I want to see players in the Red shirt who are made of the "right stuff".
-I want the manager to be able to inspire

As along as the team is winning & playing well nobody will give a shit, this is true of sports across the world & FSG know this better than anyone else.






This is true, unfortunately people seem to think this all happens by accident or inspiration.....and we're we happy with g&h when we were challenging?
Joey's ate the frogs legs, made the swiss roll, now he's munchin' gladbach!!

Offline Lady_Brandybuck

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2012, 02:07:34 AM »
Excellent piece Roy.

It brings the question, can it evolve to take the best out of all the parts involved? once the storm settles and each part of the equation knows its place?
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Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2012, 04:43:17 AM »
out of interest, what do you want from the club? How does the changes resonate with or impact on you?

Well it's nice to be asked!

The way I see it, Kenny was never FSG's choice. He was forced on them by Hodge's shitness. Then when he did well, and the massive swell of good feeling from the fanabase was obvious, they were forced to give Kenny a contract. But it was never their vision, they wanted a complete rebuild. And frankly, Kenny didn't deliver this season. Last season, yeah, he had us in title-winning form. Title-challenging form at least. But things went pear-shaped. I think they've looked at the money he's spent and seen zero return. A Carling Cup is a nice day out for the fans but it does nothing for you in the long term.

I think a lot of people here are getting confused. Here are some viewpoints I've seen on RAWK that seem to be popular right now:

FSG aren't interested in success - i.e., a Carling Cup and possible FA Cup - they just want CL money
FSG don't have patience in our manager
People who are OK with Kenny being shown the door want it all now, are Sky generation, etc.

It seems to me that accepting a Carling Cup win as 'success' is the ultimate in short-termism. I mean literally - it's a happy Sunday afternoon. After that it's nothing. I hoped, as did every fan, that it would instill this mythical "winning mentality" in the team. Did it? We went to shit after that game. Our league form fell off a cliff.

I would have given Kenny another season. However, to be brutally honest, based on the signings (and I know we can look at Comolli as well, let's just admit the truth though, we're all clueless as to who really is picking people and having final say) and the results, I wouldn't actually be confident of us pushing for fourth, like I was in August 2011. I think we went backwards from where we were at then end of last season.

So now,  I'm looking forward with interest to see what they'll actually do. What is their grand plan. Maybe I'm naive, but I have a lot of faith in them. I think they're going to put together a quality team to take us to the next level. And they definitely want success - real success. For me the league is everything - the be all and end all - the Carling Cup does nothing whatsoever to help us build towards a Prem title. Nothing.