Topic: A call for calm.

[CraigDS]

When they come up with a plan? The plans have been there for years.

They have had 2 years to come up with their own plan. But being rudderless throughout the club now, how do they plan to do it?

They've been here 18months, not 2yrs.

They've had to go through a shit storm of a stadium plan drawn up, costing silly amounts, but the previous owners.

They've actually listened to fans and started to look at a plan (and have plans drawn up for this according to Ayre) to expand Anfield.

They've actually started looking for a naming rights partner for a new stadium SHOULD the above not be a goer.

So they have been doing something, and I'd be happy with them making the right decision (even if it takes time) rather than a stupid one that saddles the club with a ridiculous amount of debt.

[mercurial]

Just because the structures of the sports are different doesn't mean there's somehow an impenetrable knowledge between baseball and football and that in two years the owners haven't gained enough knowledge to understand what stands as success and what will bring us success. This notion that they can't possible understand what constitutes success or progress in football because they're American and own a baseball team is something that needs to die.  It's moronic and small-minded.

Unless there is evidence to the contrary. Right now what they have done all substantiates that they do not know how to manage a club like Liverpool. So far they are swinging all over the place like a Foucault pendulum.  If they have gained enough knowledge about what right for the club then the proof will be when they get it right. thus far they have not looked like delivering the goods. They have sacked people who could have delivered them. So their style of management has been moronic. Total mess in terms of press, hiring and firing staff, no clear direction on the long term way build the stadium What have they done I ask you which say that they have got this right? You call us moronic, I call their decisions moronic. What makes you think that they really understand football and the fans? All I can see are two rich people hankering after my money.

[kiNki]

If thats the case, don't anyone be dreaming of a one of those Wembley, Cardiff, Westfalen nights, anytime soon.

in fairness its nice to know, especially from our commercial director, that there's no need to tick the boxes for cup games in our season ticket renewals.

[mercurial]

They've been here 18months, not 2yrs.

They've had to go through a shit storm of a stadium plan drawn up, costing silly amounts, but the previous owners.

They've actually listened to fans and started to look at a plan (and have plans drawn up for this according to Ayre) to expand Anfield.

They've actually started looking for a naming rights partner for a new stadium SHOULD the above not be a goer.

So they have been doing something, and I'd be happy with them making the right decision (even if it takes time) rather than a stupid one that saddles the club with a ridiculous amount of debt.

 Even H&G were looking for naming rights, whats so special about it? Everyone is looking for one as it drives the cost down.

[jDJ]

Barca -- Lets see how did Cryuff take on the path to success? Do you remember someone called Stoichkov and Laudrup? How did that team win the league? What did they win before the league run? How close was those league finishes? Barca went about it the same way. No big teams will shit on the cups. It is what your favourite owner from boston has drilled into you. Barcelona fans will still take a cup any day over a 3rd place finish. It is called mentality of a team.

Oh come off it mate - the cups are not taken seriously in Spain at all.  Have you seen some of the teams who have knocked out top sides in the Copa del Rey over the years.  It's only since Mourinho's Real won it a couple of years ago that Barca and Real have played anything approaching their strongest teams.

[BostonScouse]

They've been here 18months, not 2yrs.

They've had to go through a shit storm of a stadium plan drawn up, costing silly amounts, but the previous owners.

They've actually listened to fans and started to look at a plan (and have plans drawn up for this according to Ayre) to expand Anfield.

They've actually started looking for a naming rights partner for a new stadium SHOULD the above not be a goer.

So they have been doing something, and I'd be happy with them making the right decision (even if it takes time) rather than a stupid one that saddles the club with a ridiculous amount of debt.

right on. We will go nowhere as a club if this is going to be how owners are treated now.

[mercurial]

Oh come off it mate - the cups are not taken seriously in Spain at all.  Have you seen some of the teams who have knocked out top sides in the Copa del Rey over the years.  It's only since Mourinho's Real won it a couple of years ago that Barca and Real have played anything approaching their strongest teams.

What was the original debate about? About cups successes being a stepping stone to league success. We are talking late 80's here.

[Holwing Fantod]

When they come up with a plan? The plans have been there for years.

They have had 2 years to come up with their own plan. But being rudderless throughout the club now, how do they plan to do it?

Not architectural plans, an actual specific plan for moving forward.  They have two major options which required serious analysis and investigation and they've been doing that.  They couldn't do that before they arrived and the two options have serious pros and serious cons.  They've said they'd prefer to refurbish Anfield but due to constraints placed upon them by the Liverpool city council that seems unlikely.  In the meantime they've probably been working to find a naming rights partner so they can afford to build a separate stadium, but at the same time, they have to analyze whether or not the cost of a new stadium can be justified when the increased capacity may not in fact either be filled or bring in enough money to recoop costs. 

To me those are major decisions that take time and it's only right that it's taking a few years to make them.  I know it seems glacial from a personal perspective, particularly when we've been already waiting so long, but from an organizational point of view 18 months is a shot time to have done all of that. 

On top of all of that, we actually don't know where they stand with regard to the stadium.  There's every chance they plan on making that announcement this summer.  Although a lot of people like to portray them as absentee landlords, to my reckoning they've been very proactive and hands-on and this strikes me as something that would received most of their attention and I'm sure they'll act as quickly as it's feasible.  I know all of that sounds maybe too nuanced or reasonable for an internet forum that encourages hasty and poorly-considered opinions, but I think it's how it is. 

[CraigDS]

What was the original debate about? About cups successes being a stepping stone to league success. We are talking late 80's here.

That wasn't really my debate to be honest. I don't doubt they can help in some way, but in the grand scheme of things in modern football (not late 80's) you need the revenue to compete. We don't have (or want) billionaire owners so we need all we can get. £40m+ of which a season we can get (btw this is nearly as much as our stadium brings in) by getting 4th place.

If the owners told Kenny that was the aim, which I think they did publicly as well as privately, then even by winning the Carling Cup he failed to reach that aim - by a hell of a long way.

[Anthony]

Whose idea was it to have LFCTV replay Istanbul tonight - it's not helping you know!!!

[Cassiel]

Fuck this shit.  How about a call for Kvarme?

[mercurial]

That wasn't really my debate to be honest. I don't doubt they can help in some way, but in the grand scheme of things in modern football (not late 80's) you need the revenue to compete. We don't have (or want) billionaire owners so we need all we can get. £40m+ of which a season we can get (btw this is nearly as much as our stadium brings in) by getting 4th place.

If the owners told Kenny that was the aim, which I think they did publicly as well as privately, then even by winning the Carling Cup he failed to reach that aim - by a hell of a long way.

So you wriggle out of it. You come in to claim that cups mean nothing. Time and again people pointed out numerous examples of team who used that. You will not get 40M by getting into CL. Since you like finances so much, let me put it this way -- the cost of playing CL football is substantial. So it is not really as profitable as people think. So dump that 40M down the drain. That is what you get if you have a great run in the CL which is not something we expect. Arsenal did not earn as much and we will probably earn even less. Those extra money they bring in from the gate is not available at Anfield.

http://swissramble.blogspot.in/2012/04/champions-league-revenue-final.html

If you look at the wage bills and the cost of the setup it is quite a sum. The club does not make all 40m so easily. If you are an also ran you will not get so much money. Even Arsenal for all it low wage bill actually spends a massive amount on it youth setup and scouting. You seem to a have your fucking node in their arse, so here's a question? What do you as a football fan want? You want to talk finances as a fan or you want success? What do you define as success? Empty runs in CL and a top 4 finish and be the laughing stock. What has John Henry done so far in Liverpool? What has he succeeded in? what has he given to the club? All he has done is made an investment like a shrewd businessman. Is Is he a philanthropist as far as Liverpool is concerned? Why should he not look to make a profit and set sail if can get a price? Put on your other hat and tell me how it makes sense for John Henry to dump Liverpool.

[kenworthy]

Lets not downplay the CL now. I love winning cups. But when LFC are in the CL there is always a hope.  Istanbul, still to this day, features regularly in my dreams. As if I were on the pitch itself.

[mercurial]

Lets not downplay the CL now. I love winning cups. But when LFC are in the CL there is always a hope.  Istanbul, still to this day, features regularly in my dreams. As if I were on the pitch itself.

I love the CL football. I like to get in it. Craig was defending the owners and was making an argument on why Kenny was rightly sacked for not achieving CL. His opinion is that CL is the be all and end all for football. That cups are meaningless. That the owners treated Kenny in the right manner.

For me you cannot remove European nights from Anfield. They go together and that too when I see it on television. So really, no one is sayng CL is bad, I want us there. The way the owners are going about that job is what pisses off so many fans. It may not even get us there.

[SuperMilan]

Whose idea was it to have LFCTV replay Istanbul tonight - it's not helping you know!!!

I was thinking the same thing, it was NOT a good idea.

[kenworthy]

I love the CL football. I like to get in it. Craig was defending the owners and was making an argument on why Kenny was rightly sacked for not achieving CL. His opinion is that CL is the be all and end all for football. That cups are meaningless. That the owners treated Kenny in the right manner.

For me you cannot remove European nights from Anfield. They go together and that too when I see it on television. So really, no one is sayng CL is bad, I want us there. The way the owners are going about that job is what pisses off so many fans. It may not even get us there.

I know. I was being a bit flippant. I agree with you totally. It's a tough pill to swallow. But unfortunately this is the modern game. The prestige of CL far outweighs cups. It shouldn't. No kid dreams of scoring the goal that secured 4th place. They dream of hitting the back of the net in the cup final. I also think Kenny's sacking came down to more than just not securing 4th. But that's neither here nor there.

[bez]

Not architectural plans, an actual specific plan for moving forward.  They have two major options which required serious analysis and investigation and they've been doing that.  They couldn't do that before they arrived and the two options have serious pros and serious cons.  They've said they'd prefer to refurbish Anfield but due to constraints placed upon them by the Liverpool city council that seems unlikely.  In the meantime they've probably been working to find a naming rights partner so they can afford to build a separate stadium, but at the same time, they have to analyze whether or not the cost of a new stadium can be justified when the increased capacity may not in fact either be filled or bring in enough money to recoop costs. 

To me those are major decisions that take time and it's only right that it's taking a few years to make them.  I know it seems glacial from a personal perspective, particularly when we've been already waiting so long, but from an organizational point of view 18 months is a shot time to have done all of that. 

On top of all of that, we actually don't know where they stand with regard to the stadium.  There's every chance they plan on making that announcement this summer.  Although a lot of people like to portray them as absentee landlords, to my reckoning they've been very proactive and hands-on and this strikes me as something that would received most of their attention and I'm sure they'll act as quickly as it's feasible.  I know all of that sounds maybe too nuanced or reasonable for an internet forum that encourages hasty and poorly-considered opinions, but I think it's how it is. 

Great post!   . I have just looked at your post history. I pressume you are one of FSG?

All you have done is big them up, with no thought for the fan in the street who spends money actually following them.

Big deal they have looked for a naming partner,  so have everyone. On the plus side they NEED them to build the ground as they don't have a pot to piss in to build it themselves.

Organisationally as you say, they have been here 18 months, and we have Ayer! Who is taking the club forward? Where is the structure from the top to build for success, is there any footballing people around the club or is it just the monthly balance sheet and opta stats that they get reports on?

[Dubit10]

FSG have shown us nothing so far that would indicate they are serious about putting the club back in it's rightful place. Until they do they are just another group of yanks trying to make money out of our great name.

[Big m]

We haven't won the league for over 20 years so anyone thinking that we dont need massive change is dillusional. We have had horrible owners in that time and a decline off the pitch. FSG at least know how to run business and sport. Major surgery was required and is being delivered!!!!

I for one am totally behind it.

[CraigDS]

So you wriggle out of it. You come in to claim that cups mean nothing. Time and again people pointed out numerous examples of team who used that. You will not get 40M by getting into CL. Since you like finances so much, let me put it this way -- the cost of playing CL football is substantial. So it is not really as profitable as people think. So dump that 40M down the drain. That is what you get if you have a great run in the CL which is not something we expect. Arsenal did not earn as much and we will probably earn even less. Those extra money they bring in from the gate is not available at Anfield.

http://swissramble.blogspot.in/2012/04/champions-league-revenue-final.html

I'm sorry - 'the cost of playing CL football is substantial'. What costs? What considerable costs to we encounter where we have to 'dump that 40M down the drain'?

And I did slightly over estimate the CL figures there, thought I had read they were more this year. So united are getting approx 35m euros for going out at the group stages. Chelsea a min of 55m for a run to the final. That's minus the extra commercial revenue it brings in on top of that.

If you look at the wage bills and the cost of the setup it is quite a sum. The club does not make all 40m so easily. If you are an also ran you will not get so much money. Even Arsenal for all it low wage bill actually spends a massive amount on it youth setup and scouting. You seem to a have your fucking node in their arse, so here's a question? What do you as a football fan want? You want to talk finances as a fan or you want success? What do you define as success? Empty runs in CL and a top 4 finish and be the laughing stock. What has John Henry done so far in Liverpool? What has he succeeded in? what has he given to the club? All he has done is made an investment like a shrewd businessman. Is Is he a philanthropist as far as Liverpool is concerned? Why should he not look to make a profit and set sail if can get a price? Put on your other hat and tell me how it makes sense for John Henry to dump Liverpool.

Our wages at the moment are top 4 level. i.e. they are that of a CL team as it is. So no increase (as of last accounts, we have since dropped them).

What do I want? I will take empty CL runs for a few years for sure, if it means that extra revenue is constantly pumped into the squad to enable us to build one that can a. win the league and b. win the CL. I would take a few seasons with no trophies if it means we get back to a position to compete at the top once again.

What has Henry done? At the moment he has taken a club in absolute turmoil and settled the ship financially. On the pitch nothing has changed in a season and a half, I admit that. I think they have invested enough to be better than 8th and 17pts behind 4th place, but maybe not enough to be 4th place. I think they got the wrong structure to begin with but looks like they may have learnt from that and getting one in that can last a while. It remains to be seen if the decision to get rid of Kenny is the right one - I really don't know.

[CraigDS]

Craig was defending the owners and was making an argument on why Kenny was rightly sacked for not achieving CL. His opinion is that CL is the be all and end all for football. That cups are meaningless. That the owners treated Kenny in the right manner.

I was defending the owners. And I was making an argument for why Kenny was sacked.

I wasn't saying he should of got CL football, I have constantly said he should of been closer to it than 17pts.

I have certainly never said CL football is the be all and end all for football. I said it was a stepping stone to greater things (hopefully).

I have never said cups are meaningless.

And never said that they treated him in the right manner.

Please if you're gonna say shit about me at least get it right and not put fucking lies down.

[Bonaqua]

right on. We will go nowhere as a club if this is going to be how owners are treated now.

Owners are treated the way they deserve to be treated

[kenworthy]

FSG have shown us nothing so far that would indicate they are serious about putting the club back in it's rightful place. Until they do they are just another group of yanks trying to make money out of our great name.

I wouldn't totally agree with that. They aren't here to fail. They did save us administration. They opened up the purse for transfers. They installed Kenny at the behest of the supporters. We were the ones singing his name. Although I agree, since they made Kenny permanent manager last summer they should have given him at least two years to implement his philosophy. They paid off a massive amount of debt tied to the old stadium plans. That took time and we're in a better place for it. And 18 months seems like a long time. But its not when you are trying to get the wheels of this historic club churning again. Remember where we were 18 months ago? Remember what that felt like? We almost lost our club. We weren't mediocre as an institution 18 months ago. We on the brink.

[mercurial]

I know. I was being a bit flippant. I agree with you totally. It's a tough pill to swallow. But unfortunately this is the modern game. The prestige of CL far outweighs cups. It shouldn't. No kid dreams of scoring the goal that secured 4th place. They dream of hitting the back of the net in the cup final. I also think Kenny's sacking came down to more than just not securing 4th. But that's neither here nor there.

That is what many are ignoring. The man would have been gone even if had done the double to get us the league cup and the FA cup. They wanted face who fits in with their media friendly image. They want to make this club into a reality TV show. Kenny went as he would have done things his way. He would probably have given us that 4th place also, no manager can guarantee that. The Suarez incident and corporate pressure from the lieks of standard chartered may also have played a part but I do not know, no one does. That person on Craig's image failed to get 4th after publicly guaranteeing it.

It is not a debate where we defend the owners because he is from the same country and did great things there. Maybe he did and maybe he is a good person. So far, I have not yet seen anything which would make me trust them. In fact with time I am beginning to veer around to the view that they do not know how to run this club. Keeping an open mind is important. Our affiliation to our country should not lead us to put on the blinkers.

[thelinnen]

I love the CL football. I like to get in it. Craig was defending the owners and was making an argument on why Kenny was rightly sacked for not achieving CL. His opinion is that CL is the be all and end all for football. That cups are meaningless. That the owners treated Kenny in the right manner.

For me you cannot remove European nights from Anfield. They go together and that too when I see it on television. So really, no one is sayng CL is bad, I want us there. The way the owners are going about that job is what pisses off so many fans. It may not even get us there.

See for me you're right. When I look back in a few years I won't remember winning the league cup as fondly as Istanbul, or winning in Camp Nou or thrashing Real Madrid.

[Liverbird 2010]

Ive calmed down a lot from whats happened the past few days, but if some no mark like Roberto Martinez is given the Liverpool job there will be fuckin uproar !!!

And rightly so ......

[Bonaqua]

I'm sorry - 'the cost of playing CL football is substantial'. What costs? What considerable costs to we encounter where we have to 'dump that 40M down the drain'?

And I did slightly over estimate the CL figures there, thought I had read they were more this year. So united are getting approx 35m euros for going out at the group stages. Chelsea a min of 55m for a run to the final. That's minus the extra commercial revenue it brings in on top of that.

Our wages at the moment are top 4 level. i.e. they are that of a CL team as it is. So no increase (as of last accounts, we have since dropped them).

What do I want? I will take empty CL runs for a few years for sure, if it means that extra revenue is constantly pumped into the squad to enable us to build one that can a. win the league and b. win the CL. I would take a few seasons with no trophies if it means we get back to a position to compete at the top once again.

What has Henry done? At the moment he has taken a club in absolute turmoil and settled the ship financially. On the pitch nothing has changed in a season and a half, I admit that. I think they have invested enough to be better than 8th and 17pts behind 4th place, but maybe not enough to be 4th place. I think they got the wrong structure to begin with but looks like they may have learnt from that and getting one in that can last a while. It remains to be seen if the decision to get rid of Kenny is the right one - I really don't know.

Your posts are excellent. Insightful with common sense and logic.
One question for you. Who would you guess our next manager will be?

[CraigDS]

It is not a debate where we defend the owners because he is from the same country and did great things there. Maybe he did and maybe he is a good person. So far, I have not yet seen anything which would make me trust them. In fact with time I am beginning to veer around to the view that they do not know how to run this club. Keeping an open mind is important. Our affiliation to our country should not lead us to put on the blinkers.

I don;t know if this is directed at me, but because we have been debating I will ask - is this directed at me? In other words, are you presuming Im from the USA?

[bez]

We haven't won the league for over 20 years so anyone thinking that we dont need massive change is dillusional. We have had horrible owners in that time and a decline off the pitch. FSG at least know how to run business and sport. Major surgery was required and is being delivered!!!!

I for one am totally behind it.

There's only been 3, and the last 2 have done fuck all yet?

[Big m]

It would for me be odder that finishing 8th, 17 points off CL qualification was deemed acceptable at Liverpool. Its not. Playing players out of form over players in form is not either. Seems to me FSG have a pretty good idea about what and what isnt acceptable at Liverpool. I would be more disturbed the other way round.

[CraigDS]

Your posts are excellent. Insightful with common sense and logic.
One question for you. Who would you guess our next manager will be?

Honestly, I really haven't a clue at the moment. I have bought in to the whole media bullshit unfortunately as much as I really didn't want to. I'd like a top named manager and after reading some threads on here with some excellent posts Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas does look good if in the right structure.

Although my heart says Rafa!

[PAULG]

A call for calm you say?  Tell me , who is calmer than Rafa Benitez? He has Ice in his veins that man.

[mercurial]

I don;t know if this is directed at me, but because we have been debating I will ask - is this directed at me? In other words, are you presuming Im from the USA?

Yes, I did because of the way you seem to be aware of the red sox and the know how on the owners. I may be wrong and apologies if so.

[Fitzy.]

I'd like them to define their success. What does success mean to them?.....A quick buck or a quick cup? 

well they got their cup...

[killer_heels]

So far, I think the best decision they have made since they have been at the club has been the hiring of Kenny Dalglish.

You look at some of the bad and non decisions: -

- Hiring Comolli
- Sacking Kenny
- No real movement on the stadium
- Having no real structure in place
- No direction or leadership during the Suarez affair

At the moment, they have done very little to inspire confidence or believe that they know anything about this game.

[Fitzy.]

FSG have shown us nothing so far that would indicate they are serious about putting the club back in it's rightful place.

Erm, well they paid a bundle for a few players. That's kind of good, no?

[CraigDS]

Yes, I did because of the way you seem to be aware of the red sox and the know how on the owners. I may be wrong and apologies if so.

I was born in Mill Rd hospital and lived in the streets right behind the Kop, with both sets of Grand Parents living in adjoining streets there too. Both my parents families have all come from Liverpool going back as far as I know, and both sets have been going to watch Liverpool for as long as I know - me with them from the age of 5 (think may have been younger but went regularly on a ST that belonged to my Dads mate who just had a baby from that age!).

Got a season ticket by luck with my Dad when I was 6 (when Upper Centenary opened) and have had one ever since. Traveled all over watching them, including all over Europe.

So no, Im not American.

[suttonoot]

a call for calm , why? , up the east lancs road they are pissing themselves laughing with good cause , many years ago a manager called alex ferguson was one game away from the sack allegedly, they stuck by him , he won the fa cup and look where they are now , we won a domestic cup our first in 6 years and what do those clowns do sack our saviour , we were going forward we won something , now we can start rebuilding again sack the next one after 2 years , sack managers more often than deadly doug or Chelsea , call for calm my arse

[CHOPPER]

in fairness its nice to know, especially from our commercial director, that there's no need to tick the boxes for cup games in our season ticket renewals.

Wow! A moment of clarity in a sea of doom.

That, is so so absolutely spot on it's scary. Why should season ticket holders tick for cup games when, in effect, they don't really matter.

And I'll leave the "don't really matter" bit, up to interpretation whether they mean the cups or the fans.

[CraigDS]

Although he never said they don't matter. He just said the are not as high a priority as gaining 4th place.

Which should we gain 4th place, pretty much most fans would agree that aiming to go further in the CL in better than going further in the Carling Cup.