Topic: Ian Ayre outlines the way forward (*)

[RojoLeón]

I really don't understand why Kenny escapes all blame for the season results, and FSG receive the blame for everything.

It was a combined effort.  Kenny and Comolli (who is apparently now considered FSG) obviously chose the wrong players to pursue, Comolli negotiated the prices very poorly, and Kenny failed to produce results.

Now, I'm of the mind that Kenny should have been retained in light of the bad luck we saw this season.  I think his status in the annals of the club earns him a longer leash.  But I'm also sure that he'd be the first to tell you he was not good enough this season.

And trying to blame anyone other than Torres and Meireles for their transfers is complete bollocks.

So why does Kenny take ALL the heat, if it was a combination of errors throughout the club. Including Ayre and the owners.

[The Grinch]

Which takes us back to you offering the argument - in his defence - that Dalglish couldn't get anything more out of the players he already had, without buying new ones; that our performances actually declined significantly.

Is it a huge shock that if Dalglish appealed to FSG on this basis, that he needed new players to reinvigorate the squad, having sought Downing, Adam, Henderson and Andy Carroll in his previous major signings, that they weren't particularly impressed with his plan, or his ability to get the most out of the squad?

Fundamentally, football management is about getting a team to be more than the sum of it's parts. I take absolutely no pleasure in this, but Dalglish failed quite badly on that score.

If it was a failure to get enough out of the players then why are the two people who Coached the Players Clarke and Keen still here but the two people involved in the Suarez affair Kenny and Comolli dust.

[farawayred]

I was out in the wilderness and just seen the article. To me, FSG got Kenny's achievement wrong. Yes, the signings didn't work out; yes, they were his and Comolli's signings, but our "major failure" (as described by Ayre) was due to one simple incident - Lucas' injury. With him, we'd be in 3rd place comfortably. Most people say the table doesn't lie, but then 40% of the table is not a bad indicator either. The statistical threads show it clearly that if we had continued on the trend that we were with Lucas, we would have been 3rd. That much FSG should have been able to analyze. I have no issues with the other structural changes, but Kenny should have been given at least another season.

[Anfield Kopite]

ffs. The old RAWK infighting seems like its never gonna end.

[mercurial]

Personally I don't believe Liverpool will ever have a problem getting a decent sponsorship deal. Fanbase dictates that fact alone..

..fair play to them though I guess.
Apart from that they haven't done a lot in my eyes.

They have increased commercial revenue. The question is how much. We had 2 deals coming up for renewal. The kit deal and the team sponsor. It is quite reasonable to assume that we would have had a increase in revenue as it would have been up for renewal/renegotiation. That said both the deals went better than expected. The warrior deal was good but we have lost adidas. It has to be seen how much merchandise is now sold and what revenue hit takes place as a result of indirect sales. Warrior may not sell as many shirts as Adidas and I think we get a percentage based on sales figures.

[kcbworth]

Pathetic - you have nothing to back it up except snide digs at Al. The proof lies with him of course yet it is you making the personal attack with nothing to back it up. (and he has argued at length over the last week or so - pretty easy to find examples - if they are actually there, and not your own preconceived conjecture)

Lazy and snide

What proof does Al have that the owners refused funds? It's the cornerpiece of his entire argument today and it's complete conjecture?

Al the other day said

Make no mistake FSG are looking to make cuts everywhere at the Club and they have no interest in the sporting side of things...

they are an investment group and they bought Liverpool to make money. The sooner we realise that the better.

Where is the evidence to back that up? I've only heard the complete opposite from them?

Al has made some excellent posts over the past few days, but he has gone way OTT at times and I based on the mass hysteria over the last few days, I think misinformation could be much more damaging for the club than any of the misgivings you might have about FSG.

[The Grinch]

He just used a Dalglish quote to do so, in this thread, as an example, highlighting a contradiction in Al's version of events.

How was it a contradiction didn't Kenny make it clear that the first the press would know about signings was when we had signed them. What we do know is that Kenny rang Mick McCarthy  and asked the Wolves game to be pushed back a day so it didn't clash with deadline day.

Why would you do that if you didn't intend to bring anyone in ?

[RedSoc]

Years? Certainly no further back than spring 2009. Better than Hodgson's? Sure. Setting the bar low.

Do you really believe any Benitez or Houllier side could play like we have done this year (I'll give you 2nd half of season under Benitez 2009 we were unstoppable)??
Forget those big nights in Europe, I'm talking the ability to play football like we know it. Not for me, seen some diablolical shite under rafa and houllier.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Is there ever any middle ground in any discussion? Doesn't seem like it.

[Mizerooskie]

So why does Kenny take ALL the heat, if it was a combination of errors throughout the club. Including Ayre and the owners.

He didn't take ALL the heat.  Commolli and the communications director, whose name escapes me at the moment, took 'heat' as well.

It seems to me that FSG's biggest mistake was bringing in Kenny in the first place.  Not because he wasn't good enough (because he was/is), but because it put them in the impossible position of having to consider sacking the club's biggest legend.  If they hadn't sacked Kenny, this outrage towards them would be nonexistent.

[redmark]

If it was a failure to get enough out of the players then why are the two people who Coached the Players Clarke and Keen still here but the two people involved in the Suarez affair Kenny and Comolli dust.

Because Clarke and Keen implement the manager's tactical and training instructions, not their own.
Because the 'Suarez affair' is not the only event for which Comolli and Dalglish have responsibility for in the last 18 months.

The logical conclusion of your argument would suggest that Suarez will be transfer listed and hawked around Europe very soon. Let's see.

[montysmum]

Yes, 100%, unfortunately. There is no way FSG are culpable there. You only have to compare our spending to Newcastle's. The fact we need invest again now is partly due to poor signings in those windows, although we will wait to get value on the pitch from Carroll and Henderson I would say.

You are both missing the point.

Yes, FSG gave kenny money to spend in the transfer window.  We could debate about how much, gross spend and net spend etc, but leaving that aside, they did provide some money for players.

We could debate if the final decision was Kenny's or Comolli's, who picked the players, who had the most input etc, but even that is not the point to be honest.

What is the point is that we had a raft of new players all coming into a club where the expectation and demands were probably outside anything they had ever experienced before.  We had senior players out with long term injury or bans, we had  the media hurling crap at the club on a daily basis.

We had senior executives at the club hiding behind their sofa's while Kenny was left in the firing line desperately trying to do what he instinctively felt was his job - defending the club and the players, while the 'suits' stayed silent in their offices.

The players that were brought in needed time, and while we would all have wanted them to slot into a new team seamlessly life isnt always that easy.  The performances of Carroll, Henderson, and at times Downing as the season rolled on showed that they could well do a decent job for us and next season could see them vastly improved.

None of that matters though does it, because time isn't a commodity people at this club are willing to give.  Trust, faith and belief are not words that sit easily next to the spreadhseets these days though, and they have to save money so they can buy us all plastic red and white flags next season.

[The Grinch]

What proof does Al have that the owners refused funds? It's the cornerpiece of his entire argument today and it's complete conjecture?

Al the other day said

Where is the evidence to back that up? I've only heard the complete opposite from them?

Al has made some excellent posts over the past few days, but he has gone way OTT at times and I based on the mass hysteria over the last few days, I think misinformation could be much more damaging for the club than any of the misgivings you might have about FSG.

Come of it mate the Anfield Cat makes as many appearances at Anfield as Henry and Werner do. How the hell can they be in it for a Sporting Buzz but not turn up for a Semi Final against Everton.

[The Grinch]

Because Clarke and Keen implement the manager's tactical and training instructions, not their own.
Because the 'Suarez affair' is not the only event for which Comolli and Dalglish have responsibility for in the last 18 months.

The logical conclusion of your argument would suggest that Suarez will be transfer listed and hawked around Europe very soon. Let's see.

Suarez will get the same treatment as Meireles it will be made clear to him that he might be better of moving on but then forced to hand in a transfer request to make it happen.

[Mizerooskie]

What relevance does owner attendance have?

Would you rather have Mike Ashley?  Or a meddler like Abramovich?

[rushandapush]

He's a complete 'Ayre head' yank puppet. Lost any little faith i had in the yank dynasty. Stick your money ball, baseball,l shit ball.

[sforzisi]

How was it a contradiction didn't Kenny make it clear that the first the press would know about signings was when we had signed them. What we do know is that Kenny rang Mick McCarthy  and asked the Wolves game to be pushed back a day so it didn't clash with deadline day.

Why would you do that if you didn't intend to bring anyone in ?

Let's just say that you are right, that Kenny wanted someone in January. Are you saying that we already have a player lined up with all personal terms agreed and FSG refuse to sanction the deal? Is there any chance that the player in question did not want to move? If you have insider info, you should say so.

[Finn Solomon]

ffs. The old RAWK infighting seems like its never gonna end.

It will end soon enough when we're winning things with our new manager.

Oh who am I kidding. It's never going to end.

[timmyonions]

The club left Kenny high and dry during the Luis suarez saga.Its simple.The club left Kenny to put out the defense of Luis in the public.They should have nipped the situation in the bud early doors.Kenny was always going to come out of this bad.He defended Luis to the hilt like he always has.He's always defended the club and its players.Its in his genes.With a situation as sensitive as this he was always going to be left as the fall guy.A club this size should have a PR department for such issues.

This in my opinion is where the club fucked up big time.

I think the whole debacle had a profound effect on Kenny.He looked a battered man since.This had rubbed off on the whole squad imo.

[AlphaDelta]

To be honest, it burns my head out coming on here recently. There is numerous threads all with the same stuff going round and round in circles. The general gist of things are that Kenny is blameless and completely innocent, and FSG are nothing but bastards who cant be trusted no matter what.
Add to that people are up in arms because FSG havent said a word, yet people are also up in arms because they want things doing 'The Liverpool Way'.
Finally, the famous old RAWK trait when we find ourselves in similar situations, fans turn on fans, replies get personal, insults are thrown, necks get redder, spleins are vented.

I shall be blunt, I dont believe Twitter, I dont believe Sky Sports, I dont believe text messages off mates who claim they know a cab driver/steward/aunty/uncle/cousin etc, I dont believe any of the newspapers - with a slight exception to the Echo, but even thats starting to smell of horseshit these days.
The only thing I believe is the official statement from Liverpool Football Club.

My old fella never trusted nobody, he didnt trust cars with blacked out windows when we were abroad, he wouldnt have drinks with ice-cubes in, and he didnt trust fellas in raincoats or trilby hats.........and you know what, it was all paranoia.

Nobody knows what FSG have planned, what we do know is they are keeping their traps shut about it and the only reason we knew about Martinez being approached was because a stupid old duffer in Wigan couldnt hold his own water for no more than 20 minutes before phoning the media.

Until we do know anything DEFINATE, would it not be best to calm down, stop getting high blood pressure, stop ripping other fans and stop repeating idle speculation, because all we are doing is going round and round in circles, much like a one-armed man in a swimming pool.

[hugoboss]

They get no credit for merely owning us. What have they done well?

Just because you and some others here don't agree with their decisions doesn't make it wrong. The only wrong they've done in my eyes was the appointment of Comolli and I also applaud them for sacking him when they realized he wasn't doing a good job.

Everything else they have done has been alright with me and I give them extra credit how they backed Kenny last summer.

[Mizerooskie]

Goes for you too. If you have nothing to add in terms of argument, don't try and shut him down. His arguments will fall by themselves if they are weak.

Well, they're completely based on conjecture and assumption, so they are weak.

Frankly, any arguments that lay either party (FSG and Kenny) blameless are weak.  As is the case with nearly every scenario, the truth lies somewhere in between the two polar opposite assumptions.

[L666KOP]

If that was the case then that is surely a case of a dead man walking for Kenny and makes me question whether our current "search" is nothing more than fluff with the head coach already in the bag.

A lot of us summised there were problems due to the fact we neither covered Lucas, nor 'freshened the squad' during the January window. Indeed if Kenny was actively refused money, he must have known himself perhaps, maybe the whole squad knew, it would certainly explain the 'choosing' of matches in which to 'play'.
Also lends weight to the claims by certain journos that Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas 'employed' by FSG for a fortnight or more.

[RojoLeón]

Just because you and some others here don't agree with their decisions doesn't make it wrong. The only wrong they've done in my eyes was the appointment of Comolli and I also applaud them for sacking him when they realized he wasn't doing a good job.

Everything else they have done has been alright with me and I give them extra credit how they backed Kenny last summer.

No. You don't get credit for appointing a man with an awful record, off the advice of unknowns, giving him powers far beyond his capacity, allowing him to spunk money left right and centre, then binning him 16 months later. Big black mark against their judgement there.

No credit to them, whatsoever.

[redmark]

No. You don't get credit for appointing a man with an awful record, off the advice of unknowns, giving him powers far beyond his capacity, allowing him to spunk money left right and centre, then binning him 16 months later. Big black mark against their judgement there.

No credit to them, whatsoever.

I'll agree everything before the bold is a negative. But sacking him, if he's replaced in the next week or two by a superior candidate, is a positive. People make mistakes. The bigger mistake is not recognising it and correcting it.

[The Grinch]

Some trust FSG. Some think they're trying to ruin the club (edit: well at least that has been my interpretation)

I don't think FSG are trying to ruin the Club I just think that they are out of their depth and as a consequence will cut costs and settle for profit over pushing the envelope and trying to win. The biggest problem for me is sacking Dalglish. Sure I can see reasons why an astute experienced Football operator could evaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that Dalglish might need replacing.

The whole point is that there is simply no one at the Club who could possibly have the Football acumen and knowledge to make that decision for Football reasons and that quite frankly scares the shit out of me.

I just cannot fathom how Liverpool supporters can possibly believe that Henry and Werner have the knowledge or experience to sack Dalglish for Football reasons, it's just preposterous.

[RojoLeón]

I'll agree everything before the bold is a negative. But sacking him, if he's replaced in the next week or two by a superior candidate, is a positive. People make mistakes. The bigger mistake is not recognising it and correcting it.

You're right - sacking him is a step forward after the massive leaps backwards. They are still in arrears for their mistake regardless.

[kcbworth]

I don't think FSG are trying to ruin the Club I just think that they are out of their depth and as a consequence will cut costs and settle for profit over pushing the envelope and trying to win. The biggest problem for me is sacking Dalglish. Sure I can see reasons why an astute experienced Football operator could evaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that Dalglish might need replacing.

The whole point is that there is simply no one at the Club who could possibly have the Football acumen and knowledge to make that decision for Football reasons and that quite frankly scares the shit out of me.

I just cannot fathom how Liverpool supporters can possibly believe that Henry and Werner have the knowledge or experience to sack Dalglish for Football reasons, it's just preposterous.

You should stick to posts like that Al Most people would agree with that 100%

Problem is, there's one part in there that "you think" that you seem to have been trying to convince everyone else (i.e. "as a consequence will cut costs and settle for profit over pushing the envelope and trying to win"),  and really, there is very little to back that bit up.

But good post mate.

[USC19Babel]

I just cannot fathom how Liverpool supporters can possibly believe that Henry and Werner have the knowledge or experience to sack Dalglish for Football reasons, it's just preposterous.

Maybe some of us don't buy into the narrative that Henry & Werner are shut up in a room somewhere in Boston twiddling their thumbs together making random decisions about the club. Maybe some of us think that they are individuals who have spent a great fortune to acquire an asset and will likely seek expert counsel on nurturing their investment.

These aren't a couple of nearly men or chancers, they've done it in Boston and if you really think they're out there acting cluelessly and without any external insight, then I think THAT is preposterous

[JohnHobbes]

I'll agree everything before the bold is a negative. But sacking him, if he's replaced in the next week or two by a superior candidate, is a positive. People make mistakes. The bigger mistake is not recognising it and correcting it.

Yes, how many times have we all criticised the club in the past for not acting faster? Roy being a prime example or Parry in the distant past.

They've admitted they made a mistake and have acted swiftly in fixing that mistake. That's a good thing. If they split his role with two new ones and then those don't work out either then they're liable to be justly criticised for not learning from the first time.

[redmark]

I don't think FSG are trying to ruin the Club I just think that they are out of their depth and as a consequence will cut costs and settle for profit over pushing the envelope and trying to win. The biggest problem for me is sacking Dalglish. Sure I can see reasons why an astute experienced Football operator could evaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that Dalglish might need replacing.

The whole point is that there is simply no one at the Club who could possibly have the Football acumen and knowledge to make that decision for Football reasons and that quite frankly scares the shit out of me.

I just cannot fathom how Liverpool supporters can possibly believe that Henry and Werner have the knowledge or experience to sack Dalglish for Football reasons, it's just preposterous.

Two possible scenarios - firstly, that they have been talking to and taking advice from experienced 'football people'. It's widely reported they've been talking to Dein (highly regarded, if an Arsenal fan) and Barwick (a Liverpool fan for decades). Secondly, that Dalglish's selling point was getting more out of the squad, with decent money on signings last summer, than Hodgson had; a swift return to competitiveness and challenging for the top four; in which case Dalglish was judged (unfavourably) against his own sales pitch.

[shelovesyou]

Maybe some of us don't buy into the narrative that Henry & Werner are shut up in a room somewhere in Boston twiddling their thumbs together making random decisions about the club. Maybe some of us think that they are individuals who have spent a great fortune to acquire an asset and will likely seek expert counsel on nurturing their investment.

These aren't a couple of nearly men or chancers, they've done it in Boston and if you really think they're out there acting cluelessly and without any external insight, then I think THAT is preposterous

Yep, and one of the first things Henry did after he brought the club was arrange a meeting with real fans, some from this very site, he also brought a load of books about the club, in isolation not a great amount of research but he did that never the less.
Surely that tells you something about him ?

[redmark]

In the same vain, is hiring Kenny a big black mark against their judgement?

Unpalatable as it seems, yes - if they were really uncomfortable with appointing Dalglish and going against 'their plan', then succumbing to our messianic demands was a huge mistake. Another they've now corrected, perhaps - and the likeliest reason why Rafa won't be the replacement.

You're right - sacking him is a step forward after the massive leaps backwards. They are still in arrears for their mistake regardless.

Indeed. Rectification requires a good structure and good individuals to be appointed.

[geoffstrong]

Yep, and one of the first things Henry did after he brought the club was arrange a meeting with real fans, some from this very site, he also brought a load of books about the club, in isolation not a great amount of research but he did that never the less.
Surely that tells you something about him ?

yeah it tells you he was on a charm offensive buying books doesn't mean he had read them, and given his actions my guess is he didnt, met the fans made assurances set up a fans committee that does nothing it seems there for cosmetic purposes, arrange to make further meetings never happened.

Actually i am surprised you can be so easily taken in by a guy buying or being given a few books!

edit who are the real fans?

[Tomo!]

I don't think FSG are trying to ruin the Club I just think that they are out of their depth and as a consequence will cut costs and settle for profit over pushing the envelope and trying to win. The biggest problem for me is sacking Dalglish. Sure I can see reasons why an astute experienced Football operator could evaluate the situation and come to the conclusion that Dalglish might need replacing.

The whole point is that there is simply no one at the Club who could possibly have the Football acumen and knowledge to make that decision for Football reasons and that quite frankly scares the shit out of me.

I just cannot fathom how Liverpool supporters can possibly believe that Henry and Werner have the knowledge or experience to sack Dalglish for Football reasons, it's just preposterous.

Why are they trying to genertate profit though?

Don't get me wrong i know there business men and in the long term they might hope to sell the club for more money than they paid.
But if there trying to generate profit to re invest in the club for transfers etc to make us sustainable as opposed to relying on the sugar daddy model that say City and Chelsea depend on then the obsession with CL football is understandable.

[SP]

This is a starred topic. One line posts not welcome.

[Mizerooskie]

Unpalatable as it seems, yes - if they were really uncomfortable with appointing Dalglish and going against 'their plan', then succumbing to our messianic demands was a huge mistake. Another they've now corrected, perhaps - and the likeliest reason why Rafa won't be the replacement.

I don't disagree at all.  Kenny should have been hired as a caretaker manager for the remainder of the disastrous Hodgson season, at most.  Modern football is a results-oriented business first and foremost.  FSG put themselves into a position where they'd likely be forced to alienate a large portion of fans by sacking a club legend if he didn't get the results.  After being out of coaching for over a decade, it probably should have been expected that the results would dip at some point.

I honestly believe we could have finished 16th, and sacking Kenny would have produced the same vitriol.

[shelovesyou]

yeah it tells you he was on a charm offensive buying books doesn't mean he had read them, and given his actions my guess is he didnt, met the fans made assurances set up a fans committee that does nothing it seems there for cosmetic purposes, arrange to make further meetings never happened.

Actually i am surprised you can be so easily taken in by a guy buying or being given a few books!

edit who are the real fans?

Like i said in isolation it doesnt mean that much but its a start. Did he read the books ? God knows, however I supppose you could say it was a charm offensive yes, but it can also depend on your outlook how you viewed those things.
Im highly sceptical of FSG mate, I dont fully trust them yet, it takes time, but im not making claims and trying to pass them off as fact, like so many in here are.

[Cork Red]

Suarez will get the same treatment as Meireles it will be made clear to him that he might be better of moving on but then forced to hand in a transfer request to make it happen.

I'm not having a go, but I don't remember too many on RAWK blaming the owners at the time.

It seemed to be pretty much accepted at the time that Meireles was being a greedy bastard regarding a new contract and the club were right to let him go.

When Torres was sold the prevailing narrative on here was that he'd put in a transfer request and that Kenny wanted him gone for showing a lack of loyalty to the club.

I think the owners were wrong to sack Kenny, but I don't think every decision of the last 18 months can be reinterpreted as a in light of that mistake.

[Benbo]

OK maybe the signing of Damien Comolli was a mistake but it at least it was an honest one. They thought they had their guy and backed him massively because they didn't know any different. When the penny dropped they got rid quickly. The fact is they realised he wasn't the very best in the world and therefore not good enough for Liverpool and they sacked him. I'm sorry but this shows that FSG are good owners.