Topic: Who do you want as Liverpool's next manager?

[rafathegaffa83]

Thanks. How did the team do under Francona, compared to the other guy?

Francona won two World Series and they made the playoffs five times in the seven years he was there. In their worst season under him they had a .530 winning percentage, but finished 3rd in their division (the toughest in division in the sport), which was better than the St. Louis Cardinals, who won their division and later won the World Series. They always had a winning record under Francona, despite the fact he'd never had a winning record before taking them over. Under Valentine, they currently have a losing record, which part of that is down to the fact that most of their starting pitchers are injured.

Likewise, it may have been discussed before but I would like to understand the sort of skills that make a successful baseball coach and how players are chosen as being promising or desirable. I will admit to having only a limited understanding of Baseball but it does appear to be more like cricket than football and therefore individuality and statistics may be more important. It is useful to understand this because it helps us understand whether these choices involve transferable skills or whether new ones need to be developed by FSG.

 Statistics are part of it, but like in football a large part of how players are considered desirable is based on character.  Billy Beane as a young high school prospect had all the tools to be a great player, but his mentality was terrible and thus he flopped as a player. They will pick managers according to the different skill sets that are required in each sport. But, like in every team sport, you have very tactically minded managers and then you have the pseudo-psychologist types who surrounded themselves with talented people. Judging from the candidates we know about it's clear they want someone who fits a proposed system that likely is more attack and possession-oriented and will require someone who is more an innovative thinker and tactician. I think it's important for people to disregard the CVs and think about how these candidates relate to a specific system, rather than if they are being picked with an idea of how they like to recruit in other sports.

[ghost1359]

Ask around lad, ask a mod or two. Fsg refused to buy any players or back him in Jan. Hard to get players playing for you when they know you're a dead man walking.

Just because they'd decided they wanted another man doesn't mean it was down to the Suarez affair. If that's what they had decided by the time January had come around then it makes a bit of sense to not give money to Kenny if you're gonna change manager 5 months later. Why would you give him 20 million to spend when you could add that to whatever you had lined up for the next summer & give it all to the man you actually want in charge?

I can't say it's a decision I personally agree with but business is all about taking risks I suppose, as is football.

[rafathegaffa83]

The thing people need to realise is that under the FSG structure the DOF will be the main guy and the longer term appointment. The manager will be the secondary figure and will have to buy into and implement his philosophy on the training pitch and in matches. From the media it would appear that an extra technical director will come in ie: Pep Segura so between the 3 they will devise and implement a football strategy that filters throughout the club at all levels. This will probably be a 5-10 year project and may have several managers involved.  The whole idea being that even if the manager changes we'll have continuity and won't have tear the plan up and start again like we've been doing for the past 20 odd years. In baseball the DOF would be akin to the general manager and the manager the equivalent of the head coach. Taking that into consideration the type of manager we're looking for changes and it's one of the main reasons why Rafa isn't being considered.

I think we should take the plunge as fans and back FSG and see what happens. I'm positive they want to win and to make the club successful. They won't make any money if we stay where we are. They're trying to look at it from a different angle and gain an advantage on clubs that currently have a greater income than us.

That's how I see it.

[L666KOP]

So why aren't SOS and all the mods here currently laying seige to FSG HQ?

Probably because the whole Suarez saga was a clusterfuck from top to bottom, there was culpability right from the top to the bottom.
Fsg should have stepped in sooner than they did, Kenny did himself no favours whatsoever either with his defence of Luis, bordering on obsessive at times, and the less said about the t shirts the better.
We needed guidance and direction, FSG obviously thought we could sort it ourselves, and we all saw the results, and whether we were right or wrong to back Luis, FSG were not about to jeopardise the millions in sponsorship by being labelled a racist club. We needed a fall guy.

[Resurrected]

Francona won two World Series and they made the playoffs five times in the seven years he was there. In their worst season under him they had a .530 winning percentage, but finished 3rd in their division (the toughest in division in the sport), which was better than the St. Louis Cardinals, who won their division and later won the World Series. They always had a winning record under Francona, despite the fact he'd never had a winning record before taking them over. Under Valentine, they currently have a losing record, which part of that is down to the fact that most of their starting pitchers are injured.

 Statistics are part of it, but like in football a large part of how players are considered desirable is based on character.  Billy Beane as a young high school prospect had all the tools to be a great player, but his mentality was terrible and thus he flopped as a player. They will pick managers according to the different skill sets that are required in each sport. But, like in every team sport, you have very tactically minded managers and then you have the pseudo-psychologist types who surrounded themselves with talented people. Judging from the candidates we know about it's clear they want someone who fits a proposed system that likely is more attack and possession-oriented and will require someone who is more an innovative thinker and tactician. I think it's important for people to disregard the CVs and think about how these candidates relate to a specific system, rather than if they are being picked with an idea of how they like to recruit in other sports.

So what you're saying is that Rodgers would be a pretty good fit for them. How do you think some-one like Laudrup would fit into the system?

Sorry if this resembles twenty questions but you seem to have an insight into their tendencies.

[Black Bull Nova]

The thing people need to realise is that under the FSG structure the DOF will be the main guy and the longer term appointment. The manager will be the secondary figure and will have to buy into and implement his philosophy on the training pitch and in matches. From the media it would appear that an extra technical director will come in ie: Pep Segura so between the 3 they will devise and implement a football strategy that filters throughout the club at all levels. This will probably be a 5-10 year project and may have several managers involved.  The whole idea being that even if the manager changes we'll have continuity and won't have tear the plan up and start again like we've been doing for the past 20 odd years. In baseball the DOF would be akin to the general manager and the manager the equivalent of the head coach. Taking that into consideration the type of manager we're looking for changes and it's one of the main reasons why Rafa isn't being considered.

I think we should take the plunge as fans and back FSG and see what happens. I'm positive they want to win and to make the club successful. They won't make any money if we stay where we are. They're trying to look at it from a different angle and gain an advantage on clubs that currently have a greater income than us. Usually the wage bill correlates to where a team finishes in the league, that's one trend they'll be trying to break. They've done it already in finance and baseball, I wouldn't be surprised if they did it with us.

Please tell me what the coach actually does though. What tactics exist in Baseball or am I being stupid.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Just because they'd decided they wanted another man doesn't mean it was down to the Suarez affair. If that's what they had decided by the time January had come around then it makes a bit of sense to not give money to Kenny if you're gonna change manager 5 months later. Why would you give him 20 million to spend when you could add that to whatever you had lined up for the next summer & give it all to the man you actually want in charge?

I can't say it's a decision I personally agree with but business is all about taking risks I suppose, as is football.

we were 6th in the league, only a few points from 4th at the time. If they decided to sack him due to table position how could thay have made their minds up 5 months before the end of the season.

So why aren't SOS and all the mods here currently laying seige to FSG HQ?

We need to wait and see what they are looking. Also fighting owners does nothing for the club, I am sure if things needed to go that way they would, but that is not the aim.

[rafathegaffa83]

So what you're saying is that Rodgers would be a pretty good fit for them. How do you think some-one like Laudrup would fit into the system?

I think Rodgers would be a superb fit. Possibly Laudrup as well. If it works, the ability to adapt and work within the system will trump CV from now on. It's how the likes of Milan do business.  They select managers who check the boxes of what their model requires. It's why they plucked Sacchi from Serie B, Capello from their youth system, Allegri from 16th placed Cagliari etc. 

[Black Bull Nova]

Kenny was sacked because SC complained about the Suarez Saga. No Questions, it was known around that Kenny was going since he asked them to back or sack him in Feb.

Sorry, being dim, SC?

[The 5th Benitle]

Sorry, being dim, SC?

Standards Corrupted Standard Chartered

[L666KOP]

Sorry, being dim, SC?

Standard Chartered

[Black Bull Nova]

Thanks, would not suprise me, always felt like Kenny looked under strain, something we didn't know about.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Standards Corrupted Standard Chartered

You're Bold. 

[Tepid water]

So they claimed, they also said (mirror piece when they took over) that any manager woudl be given time to get it right, and that their main aim was to add silverware to the trophy room.

Kenny was sacked because SC complained about the Suarez Saga. No Questions, it was known around that Kenny was going since he asked them to back or sack him in Feb.

Making stuff up doesn't make it true.....


It's nonsense , rubbish, unutterable crap.

[Resurrected]

I think Rodgers would be a superb fit. Possibly Laudrup as well. If it works, the ability to adapt and work within the system will trump CV from now on. It's how the likes of Milan do business.  They select managers who check the boxes of what their model requires. It's why they plucked Sacchi from Serie B, Capello from their youth system, Allegri from 16th placed Cagliari etc.

Thanks for taking the trouble to answer me. I really appreciate it.

[petrichor]

The biggest thing Stanchart want from us get into CL, where it will get huge exposure in its most important Asian market.

[decky]

Please tell me what the coach actually does though. What tactics exist in Baseball or am I being stupid.

I'm afraid you are a little, sorry (no offence)

I don't know much about baseball either but I have read 'Moneyball' by Michael Lewis and am currently reading 'Mindgame' by Steven Goldman. The level of detail about the game they go into is quite extraordinary and a lot of it using principles not usually related to sport at all.

Mind Game is the Red Sox specific one and is a great read so far, you can have a look at it here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mind-Game-Created-Blueprint-Winning/dp/0761140182 and read a few pages

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Making stuff up doesn't make it true.....


It's nonsense , rubbish, unutterable crap.

I saw one of the mods confirm it the other day, Pheeny, or 24/7 I think. I was PM'ed it before the end of the season, was told basically what was likely to happen, and it did.

[JackBauer]

Please tell me what the coach actually does though. What tactics exist in Baseball or am I being stupid.

What batting order best fits my batters' qualities and is best placed to score runs against the team we're playing today? Who's pitching for the opposition? What kind of pitches does he like to throw? Who bats well against those pitches?

[7777]

Really awaiting to find out who our manager is gonna be.

I did wonder what I was doing in this thread, thanks for reminding me

[Tepid water]

I saw one of the mods confirm it the other day, Pheeny, or 24/7 I think. I was PM'ed it before the end of the season, was told basically what was likely to happen, and it did.

Don't care, it's utter crap.

He was sacked because we were miles off fourth.

He wasn't sacked earlier because

1.  We were still in two cups

2. FSG genuinely did reflect on the season and make a decision.

If the decision was made months ago, we would clearly be far closer to appointing a manager and DOF.

It's so clear the decision was only made a week and a half ago that it's bewildering to suggest otherwise....


Anyway

[Vork+The Knights of Good]

Please tell me what the coach actually does though. What tactics exist in Baseball or am I being stupid.

There aren't many tactics in baseball. Substitution rules are the same as football, once a player leaves the game he cannot return, so the biggest in-game decisions Managers have to make in baseball are pitching changes. These are often determined by things such as matchups (for instance, it's typically harder to hit against a pitcher who throws from the same side from which you hit, ie - right hander v right hander), pitch count (pitching taxes the arm greatly and over the past 20 years or so tracking the number of pitches one makes in a game has become highly valued, 100 pitches is about standard for a starting pitcher), or of course performance. There are two different leagues in Major League Baseball, the American and the National. I won't bore you with the details, but the National League (the Red Sox play in the American League) is generally assumed to be the more "tactical" of the two as there are different rules in the two leagues.

The truth of the matter is that Managers in baseball are far less important than other sports (this is borne out by their salaries). Their most important role IMO is man management as the baseball season is extremely grueling (162 games over 6 months) and players go through massive ups and downs. Very few Managers are viewed as innovative in any tactical way, though. The only one in the game today who's really seen as such is the Tampa Bay Rays' manager, Joe Maddon. He was the other finalist for the Red Sox job ten years ago when they hired Francona, so they had a really good eye then (and neither man at the time was proven).

[Black Bull Nova]

I'm afraid you are a little, sorry (no offence)

I don't know much about baseball either but I have read 'Moneyball' by Michael Lewis and am currently reading 'Mindgame' by Steven Goldman. The level of detail about the game they go into is quite extraordinary and a lot of it using principles not usually related to sport at all.

Mind Game is the Red Sox specific one and is a great read so far, you can have a look at it here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mind-Game-Created-Blueprint-Winning/dp/0761140182 and read a few pages

None taken (I think), skimmed what I could, could see choosing players and motivation but please tell me a couple of things that a coach does in Baseball that transfer over into football. I fully understand that picking/having the best players and making sure they believe in themselves is important (like Cricket) but what's the other great secrets? Sorry I have not got time to buy and read a book.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Don't care, it's utter crap.

He was sacked because we were miles off fourth.

He wasn't sacked earlier because

1.  We were still in two cups

2. FSG genuinely did reflect on the season and make a decision.

If the decision was made months ago, we would clearly be far closer to appointing a manager and DOF.

It's so clear the decision was only made a week and a half ago that it's bewildering to suggest otherwise....


Anyway

Ah we sacked the Dof in April and still have no one to replace him. that makes sense too doesn't it.

[Black Bull Nova]

(162 games over 6 months)

They play nearly every day?

[decky]

What batting order best fits my batters' qualities and is best placed to score runs against the team we're playing today? Who's pitching for the opposition? What kind of pitches does he like to throw? Who bats well against those pitches?

The moneyball philosophy introduced new statistics like 1st base percentage, Oakland/Red Sox would buy a player that could bunt and get on first base a high percentage of the time, which over the course of the game would get the team more runs. The old way of thinking would mean these players weren't signed because they weren't big hitters. In that alone you introduce a new tactic or strategy and then get the players to fit it. There are numerous examples of things like this that I'm sure proper baseball fans could explain better than me

[Not funny reecehenebry]

There aren't many tactics in baseball. Substitution rules are the same as football, once a player leaves the game he cannot return, so the biggest in-game decisions Managers have to make in baseball are pitching changes. These are often determined by things such as matchups (for instance, it's typically harder to hit against a pitcher who throws from the same side from which you hit, ie - right hander v right hander), pitch count (pitching taxes the arm greatly and over the past 20 years or so tracking the number of pitches one makes in a game has become highly valued, 100 pitches is about standard for a starting pitcher), or of course performance. There are two different leagues in Major League Baseball, the American and the National. I won't bore you with the details, but the National League (the Red Sox play in the American League) is generally assumed to be the more "tactical" of the two as there are different rules in the two leagues.

The truth of the matter is that Managers in baseball are far less important than other sports (this is borne out by their salaries). Their most important role IMO is man management as the baseball season is extremely grueling (162 games over 6 months) and players go through massive ups and downs. Very few Managers are viewed as innovative in any tactical way, though. The only one in the game today who's really seen as such is the Tampa Bay Rays' manager, Joe Maddon. He was the other finalist for the Red Sox job ten years ago when they hired Francona, so they had a really good eye then (and neither man at the time was proven).

How do they play that amount of games over a 6 month period? Do they play nearly ever day? Or do they play a more than one game in a day.

[ghost1359]

we were 6th in the league, only a few points from 4th at the time. If they decided to sack him due to table position how could thay have made their minds up 5 months before the end of the season.We need to wait and see what they are looking. Also fighting owners does nothing for the club, I am sure if things needed to go that way they would, but that is not the aim.

Maybe they were thinking long term & thought that Kenny wasn't the man & wanted to keep the money back for the long term successor? Stranger things have happened.

[Acaustiq]

They play nearly every day?

Pretty much, sometimes two games a day, the pitchers rotate though.

[Vork+The Knights of Good]

They play nearly every day?

Yes they play virtually everyday. There's a 3 day break in July for the All-Star game and other than that they have on average about one day off for every ten days or so.

[Resurrected]

The moneyball philosophy introduced new statistics like 1st base percentage, Oakland/Red Sox would buy a player that could bunt and get on first base a high percentage of the time, which over the course of the game would get the team more runs. The old way of thinking would mean these players weren't signed because they weren't big hitters. In that alone you introduce a new tactic or strategy and then get the players to fit it. There are numerous examples of things like this that I'm sure proper baseball fans could explain better than me

So, in your opinion, were players such as Downing and Henderson, who had a high percentage of assists in 2010/11, bought to satisfy the FSG strategy?

[Black Bull Nova]

Pretty much, the pitchers rotate though.

So, like Cricket thenin that respect, small crowds for most games I guess.

I have yet to hear anything that convinces me that success in Baseball is the same as football. Money seems to be even more important in some way as individual players seem to matter more than teamwork although there is a common thread that money will buy success. Coaches seem more like Cricket captains/ selectors rolled into one. Are there any examples of baseball teams that have been turned around from a bunch of losers to a winning team without changing the players (a la Martin O'Neill at Sunderland this year for example)

[L666KOP]

Maybe they were thinking long term & thought that Kenny wasn't the man & wanted to keep the money back for the long term successor? Stranger things have happened.

Would certainly explain their reluctance to shell out for a striker and a DM.
Two positions that desperately needed reinforcement, and would arguably meant a better end to the season.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Yes they play virtually everyday. There's a 3 day break in July for the All-Star game and other than that they have on average about one day off for every ten days or so.

Pretty much, sometimes two games a day, the pitchers rotate though.

Surely they game cannot be that complex if you can play every with no training, no prep for each team you're up against. Don't they play in different states?

Sounds so far away from football it's unreal.

[decky]

None taken (I think), skimmed what I could, could see choosing players and motivation but please tell me a couple of things that a coach does in Baseball that transfer over into football. I fully understand that picking/having the best players and making sure they believe in themselves is important (like Cricket) but what's the other great secrets? Sorry I have not got time to buy and read a book.

They are different sports, you can't transfer a lot of them directly but FSG were based primarily in hedge fund markets and yet they were able to translate strategies they'd been successful with in that to baseball so I think they can do it with us. They are all about deep analysis of things, finding a way to gain advantage by exploiting avenues others are overlooking. They may not be football experts but they will surround themselves with people who are, ask all sorts of detailed questions and make decisions based on that. The structure they want to put in place will be similar to what Barcelona have now, their whole style of play will not just go out the window because Pep has left, why do you think they hired his no. 2 as replacement? Because it gives them continuity - that's what FSG are looking for

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Maybe they were thinking long term & thought that Kenny wasn't the man & wanted to keep the money back for the long term successor? Stranger things have happened.

So 6 months after they gave him he job, and only three of those being active playing months they make a huge decision like that.

Righttt.

[Black Bull Nova]

They are different sports, you can't transfer a lot of them directly but FSG were based primarily in hedge fund markets and yet they were able to translate strategies they'd been successful with in that to baseball so I think they can do it with us. They are all about deep analysis of things, finding a way to gain advantage by exploiting avenues others are overlooking. They may not be football experts but they will surround themselves with people who are, ask all sorts of detailed questions and make decisions based on that. The structure they want to put in place will be similar to what Barcelona have now, their whole style of play will not just go out the window because Pep has left, why do you think they hired his no. 2 as replacement? Because it gives them continuity - that's what FSG are looking for

I'd love to know what deep analysis has led them to Roberto Martinez, presumably such analysis is based on the last two months because he was statistically the worst manager in the PL until mid march.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

They are different sports, you can't transfer a lot of them directly but FSG were based primarily in hedge fund markets and yet they were able to translate strategies they'd been successful with in that to baseball so I think they can do it with us. They are all about deep analysis of things, finding a way to gain advantage by exploiting avenues others are overlooking. They may not be football experts but they will surround themselves with people who are, ask all sorts of detailed questions and make decisions based on that. The structure they want to put in place will be similar to what Barcelona have now, their whole style of play will not just go out the window because Pep has left, why do you think they hired his no. 2 as replacement? Because it gives them continuity - that's what FSG are looking for

They have surrounded themselves with Ayre, the football expect. Listen lad there is no one out there in football land going to feed them correct info without payment. You will end up with hacks like Commoli. As for the Barca model, they had a series of question they would about every manager before they hired Pepe, going so far as to interviewing Maureen, who they believe wouldn't work even before the interview.

[tommyLFC]

Martinez has arranged a press conference to tell everyone his plans? Fuck off. Who does he think he is? That twat Hazard? Or daare I say LeBron James.

My only hope is that it means he'll announce that he's staying. Cos surely an official LFC conference would make more sense if he was comin...

[L666KOP]

Martinez has arranged a press conference to tell everyone his plans? Fuck off. Who does he think he is? That twat Hazard? Or daare I say LeBron James.

My only hope is that it means he'll announce that he's staying. Cos surely an official LFC conference would make more sense if he was comin...

Is this true?