Author Topic: The Kenny Dalglish Discussion (*) - Post A Rumour and Get A Week Off Free  (Read 52521 times)

Offline ricflairandy

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The problem is, anyone who says this season has been anything but a disaster is a liar or deluded. The target was top 4, we fell far short of that.

I love Kenny, hes a legend. However standing by him out of loyalty is a big mistake. If we keep him, I wont be dissapointed as such, but I wont hold any hope for anything next season. I will probably expect a top 7 target and a decent run in the cups.

If we do want to progress, its time to get a new manager... or an old one.  *runs and hides after that last comment*

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It very nearly did, though I think it would have been about 1990.  He kept his job down to Robin's goal and more importantly Martin Edwards the chairmans decision to stand by his man and see what happened, despite the Stretford End baying for Mr Alex Ferguson's head.  Now is the time for FSG to stand by thier man, as in Dalglish and see beyound the rhetoric of the press and some LFC fans, which in my opinion, would show a manager who has got a team playing attacking football and not delivering the end result, at this stage.  With further backing, some bottle from all concerned at LFC, then we will soon see next season whether Dalglish can start to deliver the much needed league results. Failure to keep Dalglish and thus meaning that Liverpool would be on it's 4th manager in 2 seasons, will ultimately spell disaster.

You may well be right, but to play devil's advocate for a minute; as others have mentioned, Kenny hasn't got the years ahead of him that Ferguson had back then.  In fact Kenny was really brought in by FSG to 'steady the ship' after a (for want of a better word) disastrous period for the club on and off the field.  So you could argue, that because Kenny was appointed initially on a temporary basis with no other candidates considered, he has only ever been an 'interim' man for FSG whilst they find someone who they think can take us to the next level and be here long-term.

Perhaps if an in-depth period of finding the right man, interviewing, making sure the candidates philosophies match the direction of the club etc had lead to Kenny being appointed, the argument for giving him more time would be much stronger.  As it happens, FSG haven't ever been through this process and might simply think they owe it to themselves and fans to make sure we have the best man for the job particularly after such a disappointing season.
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Offline red_mark1980

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The problem is, anyone who says this season has been anything but a disaster is a liar or deluded. The target was top 4, we fell far short of that.

I love Kenny, hes a legend. However standing by him out of loyalty is a big mistake. If we keep him, I wont be dissapointed as such, but I wont hold any hope for anything next season. I will probably expect a top 7 target and a decent run in the cups.

If we do want to progress, its time to get a new manager... or an old one.  *runs and hides after that last comment*

Standing by him out of loyalty would be a mistake agreed.

Standing by him based on 12 months out of 18, and looking at his past C.V. wouldn't be a mistake.
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Offline scared_person

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There are two outcomes which really worry me.

1) FSG decide to keep Kenny on, but they don't really have faith in him and refuse to back him in the transfer market. The squad needs a lot of work and without money to spend I think we will struggle to progress too far.

2) FSG decide to sack Kenny/move him upstairs, but without another manager in place. I could well see our first choices turning us down (Are we really that great a project to take on at this point?) and us being left with a second or third choice manager. Now he might be a fine manager but at a club like LFC the press will know he wasn't first choice, the players would know and the fans would know and it would mean they would be given much less patience.
Of course the other factor is that any time we waste know will mean we are less prepared for next season. With the Euros this summer prices could get crazy for anyone who has a good tournament. We'd be much better off getting a few deals sorted before it starts.

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Part of the problem with last season and the transfer dealings in the two windows before that is Kenny's preference for British players. At Blackburn he bought mainly British players, while at NUFC his forays into the European market didn't go too well. I suspect Kenny feels more at home in the British transfer market. Totally understandable. It is like Rafa and his eye for Spanish and Latin players. A strong DoF and a much better scouting network needs to be in place so that Kenny can be given all the assistance he needs to get non-British players that are not his natural forte. His eye for a player no doubt is as keen as ever, regardless of where they come from. Last season it didn't work out, one or two of these players may develop into good players but the majority have been poor and a mistake if we are honest. He will need to sharpen up his expertise on non-British players if we are to do well this summer. He will need quality assistance and help to make the right decisions. It is key that FSG get on the ball with appointing the right DoF. 
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Offline Rafa_La

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If you cut out all the sentiment and say for the sake of it that RH was still the manager, there is no way as many people would be willing to go another season like this.
We can't get caught up and held back because of who the manager is, if the season was a car crash (as it was, cups mean nothing, who did we beat) then we haven't got time for this sentiment. Get someone new in now and give him time to get things right before August. I do have my ideas on who but that's not the subject.
I would be sorry to see kenny go but needs must and being loyal to him, in my mind would be a mistake we can't afford.

Finalists in cups that teams who finished ahead of us in the league were eliminated means nothing?

Cups counted.

Loyalty matters. Kenny warrants this
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:56:40 PM by Rafa_La »
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Offline Holwing Fantod

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There are two outcomes which really worry me.

1) FSG decide to keep Kenny on, but they don't really have faith in him and refuse to back him in the transfer market. The squad needs a lot of work and without money to spend I think we will struggle to progress too far.

2) FSG decide to sack Kenny/move him upstairs, but without another manager in place. I could well see our first choices turning us down (Are we really that great a project to take on at this point?) and us being left with a second or third choice manager. Now he might be a fine manager but at a club like LFC the press will know he wasn't first choice, the players would know and the fans would know and it would mean they would be given much less patience.
Of course the other factor is that any time we waste know will mean we are less prepared for next season. With the Euros this summer prices could get crazy for anyone who has a good tournament. We'd be much better off getting a few deals sorted before it starts.

Neither of those seems at all likely, or like moves intelligent people would make.  If they keep Kenny, then you imagine that means they have some level of faith in him, and if they decide to keep him, why wouldn't they work to improve the side so that it can compete for a CL place?  Their stated aim is to help the club be self-sufficient, and the only way to do that is to have us regularly qualifying for the CL.  If they don't put enough money in now, they'll just have to continue to pump in more in the future to keep the club running. 

As for sacking Kenny and not naming a replacement within a week, can you conceive of good reason for anyone to do that? 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:57:09 PM by Holwing Fantod »

Offline LondonRedMan

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Thinking about this further leaves me to think it's awfully presumptive of the media to presume this meeting is about Kenny's future.

If they are the business men they are acclaimed to be surely they would be bringing Kenny over to discuss the DoF position, the other vacancies at the club as well as our strategy in the upcoming transfer window.

I mean there's no way they would allow a circus to develop as to the status of the current manager - who also happens to have the support of the majority of the fan base and a legendary status at the club.

I mean...these FSG boys are hardly Hicks and Gillet...

Offline scared_person

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Neither of those seems at all likely, or like moves intelligent people would make.  If they keep Kenny, then you imagine that means they have some level of faith in him, and if they decide to keep him, why wouldn't they work to improve the side so that it can compete for a CL place?  Their stated aim is to help the club be self-sufficient, and the only way to do that is to have us regularly qualifying for the CL.  If they don't put enough money in now, they'll just have to continue to pump in more in the future to keep the club running. 

As for sacking Kenny and not naming a replacement within a week, can you conceive of good reason for anyone to do that? 

I completely agree that neither would be sensible decisions. However it doesn't stop football boards up and down the country and around the world doing this sort of thing again and again. Do I trust that FSG are competent enough football administrators to not do this? I'm not sure.

What we need is a clear decision (and probably a public statement to stop the rumour mill).

The complicating factor I suppose is the DoF role. Without a DoF are they just going to allow Kenny to spend whatever on whoever? FSG are not knowledgeable enough to have an informed stance on any signings, so without a DoF they'll just have to trust Kenny. Will they be happy to do this? If they're not then they need to get a DoF in as quickly as possible because as I said before with the Euros this year we will need to move very soon on transfer targets.

Offline 5yearplan

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Can we get a few things straight before further discussion?

1. Firstly Kenny hasn't been "hauled" anywhere - he was always due to meet the owners but moved the meeting forward rather than wait for them to come over here.

2. Whether Kenny goes over there or they come over here nobody has any idea about was ws said; least of all journalists and what they have printed is speculation. Whoever travels where doesn't have bearing on what is happening to Kenny - trying to decipher what is going on from flight schedules is one step crazier than the body language experts who were trying to tell us what was going on with Torres.

3. "Getting to Wembley three times" are weasel words - the FA is responsible for moving the semi final venue there so we could pay the inflated costs for the stadium, it's not a managerial achievement.

4. We can't simultaneously hold the poistion that Kenny should have complete control and run everything like an old fashioned manager and also say that he was hung to dry as the face of the club during the Suarez affair.

5. To those people saying Kenny is anachronistic and out of touch with the modern game - let's just bear in mind that one of the owner's original choices for manager  - Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas  - about whom rumours were flying around about a pre-contract and who is likely taking over at Roma (with american links to FSG) was sacked due to his performance and would probably have finished lower than us had he stayed in charge at Chelsea.

6. For people saying the owner's net spend have been too low: John Henry made it clear during last summer's transfer window that there was more money to spend if needed - Kenny and Commoli decided that they already had enough new players to integrate into the team whilst keeping it functional (rightly so as it turned out). No, we didn't buy anyone in january but maybe the thinking was that Commoli was for the chop before then, our targets weren't available and it wasting money at that stage just to get anyone in wouldn't have made a difference to our anticipated league position (ie why waste 15 million on getting from 7th to 5th?)

7. It's not really good enough to complain that we can write off this season as a "transition year"and that Kenny has a three year contract. Its reasonable to look at progress during that time and ask - a transition to what? The fact is Kenny has been in charge a season and a half and we should be able to look at the direction we are travelling in by now.

8. The players HAVE let Kenny down, but which players? In general it's those that Kenny signed and so he bears some responsibility whichever way you look at it.

9. We can't simultanbeously hold the position that the players are short of confidence / need time to learn how to play with each other / are being integrated into a new system and also that we should have played Kuyt / Maxi more. The latter two, for all the great service they have given are not the future of this club, the likes of Downing and Henderson, once we've invested in them, are. The only two options we have if they are not working is to get rid or to play them more. At some point they need that time to bed in. Playing Maxi and Kuyt mighht have improved our league position by a place or two but then we would be in the same position for the start of next season but without anyone to fall back on if the new players didnt work.

10. If Kenny goes now the people who have done well out of this season are those Chelsea fans who disrupted the silence, Torres, the Arabs who bought the league title, Ferguson who agitated the whole Suarez affair to damage our club, the moneybag Arabs who bought the league, David Moyes and Roy Hodgson. Are we really going to ceed victory to them so easily? With no Kenny who exactly are we supporting who represents the LIverpool Way? Ayre? Werner? Henry? Martinez or whichever flavour of the month manager pops into peoples' heads? Kenny Dalglish IS Liverpool Football Club. He is the point of our club. Unless there is a compelling reason for him to go (and as yet there isn't) getting rid of him is like England hiring Erikkson or Capello  - it's missing the point. We will be LFC in name only. We will be like a franchise. What exactly will be "Liverpool" about us any more? The fact we play in red?

Well said Sir
 

Offline Percito

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It's just dawned on me how damaging the defeat at Swansea could be. It would have been good to end the season on a high by thumping Chelsea. Kenny's job probably would have been pretty safe and we could have gone into the summer with more positivity. I sincerely hope that loss at Swansea does not cause a nasty hangover that results in the King losing his job.

I think that the dreadful season-long display, demonstrated ineptitude with transfer funds, and lack of any apparent philosophy or rigour of tactical thought would be the factors leading to him losing his job, if and when he does. The reverse at the hands of Swansea is basically just one more symptom of where the team has been going under Kenny's stewardship. I doubt anybody is going to make the call based on that one game.

Offline T-Bone

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A lot of people are referring to Kenny's last stint as manager, but how relevant is this? He took over the best team in Europe (no, I haven't forgot that we probably were the best ever around 88, with him as manager). He didn't need to build a dynasty, but perfect what had already been created. That's not the case now. We need a major overhaul and a complete revitalisation. The two stints can't be compared IMO.

What I'm saying is that at the time probably several manager could've done a great job, it doesn't necessarily mean they're a geniuses or could perform at the top level more than 20 years later.


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A lot of people are referring to Kenny's last stint as manager, but how relevant is this? He took over the best team in Europe (no, I haven't forgot that we probably were the best ever around 88, with him as manager). He didn't need to build a dynasty, but perfect what had already been created. That's not the case now. We need a major overhaul and a complete revitalisation. The two stints can't be compared IMO.

What I'm saying is that at the time probably several manager could've done a great job, it doesn't necessarily mean they're a geniuses or could perform at the top level more than 20 years later.



Why did he pick up a decent team, (STABILITY) so why not look at what he got then and then what has happened since he left, and then think long term Kenny carries on meanwhile we look at in house succession and get them in now to work with him, in other words Bootroom 2012.
If that is Clarke fair enough I have my doubts there,  but for example there is a local young lad with a team producing good football ( even though they lost last night) and the likes of Karl Robinson at MK Dons or someone like him  youngish and who wants to play the game the right way would be great if we could get someone like that on board now I feel.

Worked last time from Shankly onwards why not again from Kenny onwards?
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Offline montysmum

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Take a step back.
FSG are a major company with more to worry about than just Liverpool. There is no way they can be expected to drop everything and make LFC their prime focus. That's not how business works.

Even if they did ask for Kenny to go there (and from reports this does not seem to be accurate) it is perfectly natural to report to your boss, rather than have him report to you, isn't it?

I'm really not understanding what the problem is.

On your first part, I dont agree.

The owners head up a company with several businesses - one of which is LFC.  I would not expect the head of say M&S to lose sight of the needs of one branch over the other, and I do not expect JWH & Co., to lose sight of the needs of LFC because their focus is on the Red Sox or Nascar or whatever it is.

They have a responsibility to make this club efficient at all levels, and successful on the pitch.  If they can't be over here taking control on a day to day basis themselves then they need to appoint the right people to do that in their place.

The lack of a decent and experienced CEO has been a problem for a long time and still is.  We should not have to see the Manager dashing across the Atlantic trying to find out what his future is, and what the plans for the club are, there should be someone in place at the club telling him this.

Whatever the facts of the dash across the Atlantic, it has led to a stream of rumour, gossip, speculation and unnecessary pressure yet again on the club, and it has been yet another example of a PR backfire.

Carlos Qiqbal posted earlier in this thread and is spot on --

" If Kenny goes now the people who have done well out of this season are those Chelsea fans who disrupted the silence, Torres, the Arabs who bought the league title, Ferguson who agitated the whole Suarez affair to damage our club, the moneybag Arabs who bought the league, David Moyes and Roy Hodgson. Are we really going to ceed victory to them so easily? With no Kenny who exactly are we supporting who represents the LIverpool Way? Ayre? Werner? Henry? Martinez or whichever flavour of the month manager pops into peoples' heads? Kenny Dalglish IS Liverpool Football Club. He is the point of our club. Unless there is a compelling reason for him to go (and as yet there isn't) getting rid of him is like England hiring Erikkson or Capello  - it's missing the point. We will be LFC in name only. We will be like a franchise. What exactly will be "Liverpool" about us any more? The fact we play in red? "
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Offline keeby

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This is just a small point and has no reflection on my view that is, Kenny should stay put for at least another sesaon....

However the argument of ferguson being given time at the toilet, could be countered with gollum across stanley park has been given 10 years and won nothing and fished above us twice in 10 years

conclusions........
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Offline tax_man

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Carlos Qiqbal posted earlier in this thread and is spot on --

" If Kenny goes now the people who have done well out of this season are those Chelsea fans who disrupted the silence, Torres, the Arabs who bought the league title, Ferguson who agitated the whole Suarez affair to damage our club, the moneybag Arabs who bought the league, David Moyes and Roy Hodgson. Are we really going to ceed victory to them so easily? With no Kenny who exactly are we supporting who represents the LIverpool Way? Ayre? Werner? Henry? Martinez or whichever flavour of the month manager pops into peoples' heads? Kenny Dalglish IS Liverpool Football Club. He is the point of our club. Unless there is a compelling reason for him to go (and as yet there isn't) getting rid of him is like England hiring Erikkson or Capello  - it's missing the point. We will be LFC in name only. We will be like a franchise. What exactly will be "Liverpool" about us any more? The fact we play in red? "

I agree with the notion this post has of the positives of Kenny staying. However I think it's a bit hyperbolic. I was half expecting a 'If Kenny goes the terrorists have won' line.

That post suggests that Kenny is the end of the line, the last of a dynasty - I disagree. When we packed in the boot room and brought in a relatively unknown French man, we warmed to him as one of our own. When he left and a fresh faced Spaniard came in, we warmed to him as one of our own and he epitomised the Liverpool Way (to the point where he lost that fresh face!). We are bigger than one man. If Kenny is replaced (and he will be at some point), we will have to just ensure we bring in the right calibre of person who knows what we are all about, like we did with Ged and Rafa. I hope Kenny stays but we won't suddenly become 'just a franchise' if he goes.

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Fact is, we have had many good performances this year only to let ourselves down with poor finishing, not getting enough players in the box, hitting the post or the bar or suffering as another keeper plays a blinder.  We are in a false position, if we were to score just a few more goals and finish off teams, next season will be very different.  If we win our first few home games, perhaps putting one of the smaller teams to the sword, then teams will no longer come to Anfield thinking they can nick something and get a big scalp, raising their game in a way they don't at Old Trafford or the Etihad where teams know they are beaten before they get onto the pitch.  Confidence will surge back through the team - we've never had a problem beating the big teams as we managed to beat everyone above us this year, apart from Spurs (poor performance and two reds away, but a great performance at home, battered them but didn't score when they were still looking at going for the title).  We need to bring in a few players - principally a third striker, a winger, cover for Lucas - but I can't see a single reason why we can not get into the top four with Kenny next year.
This is the argument. This is where I think the debate should be - you have faith Dalglish has the right stuff to get us where we're aiming for. Yes, we're in a pretty horrible league position - we're there because of a matter of inches that has repeated itself throughout the season. It's totally fair enough to suggest that we can progress enough over the summer for many of those inches to turn into goals. Do that and for sure we can get into the top 4.
Quote
It is easy to say 8th is not good enough, sack the manager, but you have to have a plan in place for his replacement.  I doubt there are many managers of the calibre we need willing to take on the Liverpool project.  In a few years, I'd be more than happy to see someone like Guardiola, Löw or maybe Rijkaard taking the reigns from Kenny.  But who are the potential replacements now?
This, to me, is a very poor argument. This isn't 2 years ago, we don't have Purslow in charge, we haven't artificially limited our candidates to a media-approved shortlist of one-deluded owl and his media approved transfer strategy. There are compelling candidates available right now who are out of a job, and there are no doubt many more who could be tempted out of their job. We aren't in crisis - Liverpool football club with the promise of reasonable backing from clued up directors is a hell of a job (and they are clued up. They may not be football experts but they ARE sports experts. Most clubs are run by clueless businessmen - ours know sport, know how to succeed in it. It's only a matter of time before they learn football as well as they need to - assuming that they are as committed as they seem). Dalglish deserves or does not deserve the job on HIS merits, not least because if he isn't kept there on HIS merits then he isn't going to be fully backed and that isn't any kind of solution anyway.

Personally, I'm quite brutal on this, and I don't know how many are. I don't think I do have a huge amount of faith in the football we've played under Dalglish, and I have no faith whatsoever that the football we've seen so far will ever challenge for the really top trophies. I do think it can get us back into the top 4, but I don't see the link to the rest of the club, and I don't see solid foundations being laid in place for successive managers to tweak and build upon - which surely is the whole point of going with a DoF model. To have a defined system which others can work with and tweak, not a system that is, in my opinion, taking us further away from the cutting edge, further away from the kind of football that can be not just successful but consitently successful against better funded opposition. I don't have much faith that we are doing everything in our power to exploit and explore every potential avenue that might squeak an extra few % from our squad.

What I think is that we've got an incredibly charismatic and hugely talented man in charge who has a slightly old-school football vision and who leaves a lot of decision-making up to the players themselves. We've got, in short, a manager who I think is quite a lot like Ferguson in charge, who lacks Ferguson's foundations, his money, his absolute control over the squad, his control over the media, his aura and, I suspect, the quality of support staff that Ferguson surrounds himself with. I think we have a manger who could and did galvanise a decent set of players, but one who doesn't have a detailed plan in place for progression, one that takes into account the fiendish lengths every other club now also goes to in order to eke out a bit of extra performance from their players.

I think if we start next season strongly, get luck with injuries and make a few good signings this summer then we can certainly get back into the top 4. I don't think we will get higher than that though, because we're trying to beat better squads with more money without superior tactics. I don't see how that bridge can be gapped, and I haven't seen any evidence that we do have the kind of tactical coherence required - a squad in which Suarez presses while 9 others are behind the half-way line is not a well-drilled side working to a clear plan, and is not going to consistently beat such sides, certainly not if they have better players.

Where we can improve enough is in becoming a flat-track bully and destroying the lesser teams consistently. That certainly is possible. That's where the inches and posts and penalties of this season look very tantalisingly like a gap to top 4 that really can be bridged.

So, there we go. That's my cards on the table but it's a horribly tough question, and one where FSG have arguably cut off their choices unnecessarily by sacking Comolli without having a replacement already in place and ready to go. If we are going to commit to a DoF model I don't think it's acceptable to leave ourselves in this kind of situation - it defeats the whole point of that structure, that ideal of long-term planning and foundation laying, to go into the fucking summer transfer window with a question mark hanging over the manager and no DoF in place at all. In that respect, FSG have dropped a massive, massive ball and I really hope something like this doesn't happen again.

But this could cause us a major problem. IF FSG really don't think Kenny is the man, don't fully trust his judgment on players and would really like a change but Kenny won't step down(or move up) because Kenny is 100% sure he is the right man to manage the club then we're screwed. We need owners & management to be united and need to make a statement to such. Kenny can't take us back to the top on his own. Maybe they are united. Maybe at their meeting Kenny convinced them. Maybe they were already convinced and all this media stuff over the last 48 hours is just typical silly season nonsense and Kenny and Steve Clarke have gone off on holiday happy as Larry.
This is absolutely crucial as well, and needs to be borne in mind. If, for example, Dalglish is kept in place because FSG fear a fan backlash then he's a dead man walking anyway. The only way any manager can work is if he goes into a season fully backed, not least because a lot of his authority over the players rests on that backing too. We don't owe Kenny Dalglish the manager's job. We do owe him the ability to do that job properly to the best of his ability.
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Offline Hinesy

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There may well be a thread needed on how to run a football club properly, or one on free advice on how to run LFC to FSG from the fans, but this isn't it. Its a thread on Kenny and his season past.
If this has run its course, we can lock it and move on, but a couple of things stand out for me:

We're supposed to be the life blood of the club according to Kenny, he'd have a fit if he read half the posts on here speculating on absolutely nothing. We want the club to keep things in house. When they do, we panic and guess and complain, and think Kenny's sat there like us, not knowing. Well he does or he doesn't. Frankly he has always struck me as the kind of guy who would leave on his terms, and therefore my guess is he knows what's happening, or he's happy not knowing. The rest is used up oxygen.
Yep.

Offline stewy17

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Try having a look at Kenny's CV. How many active managers have won as many league titles and cups as he has? How many people in football have achieved what he has?

Yeah there have been some fucking awful, bizarre moments this season, but there has been undeniable progress. He's been let down by a few of his signings but that happens to everybody. No team, not one team, will make marked progress in the first season with a new manager and a relatively new squad.

Whomever is in charge of Liverpool next year they will have to deal with all manner of ills. Moving on and replacing 2 absolute stalwarts of the football club, one of them arguably the best we've ever had. Integrating young players with massive price tags and expectations and finding new players to have an instant impact. Then they have to contend with the position of strength of our competitors both financially and in terms of the current squads they have which are all arguably stronger than us.

Then, whoever it is, will have to deal with the excruciating expectations of Liverpool fans and certain sections of the media.

I seriously cannot think of a better man for the job than Kenny Dalglish.

If people think that turning this club around is a one season / twelve month gig then you're mentally retarded. Yeah we've been poor at times, but we were also poor at times under Rafa during his first season. It took Rafa 4 years before he could put us in a position to compete for the title again before it all unravelled before him due to the septics.

Kenny needs time, the progress is visable and the signs are encouraging. If there is no improvement this time next year then yeah lets talk about him leaving, but until then it is absolutely mental.

Offline timmyonions

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I always feared we would get to this point.Where  some of the support wuldn't want Kenny at the helm anymore.The man deserves better than this and better than he's had to deal with this season just gone .We have had injuries in crucial areas.Most notibly in the middle of the park.A lot of lessons can be learned from the season.I just have this beliefe that Kenny can do better next season.That the players can do better next season .They've had enough time to settle in now and the like of downing Adam and the rest can contribute more.We've already seen signs of steady improvement from carroll and Henderson.

If we clear someone the wage bill down with the players going into the twilight of their careers so to speak and bring in some hungry players who want to play for us the then we can improve next season.I beliefe we need some stability now and we have to give Kenny another season to continue this.
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Offline Fruity

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This is just a small point and has no reflection on my view that is, Kenny should stay put for at least another sesaon....

However the argument of ferguson being given time at the toilet, could be countered with gollum across stanley park has been given 10 years and won nothing and fished above us twice in 10 years

conclusions........

I think you would have to say that based on what they spend everton have been relatively successful under moyes. They generally qualified for  europa league had an fa cup final and a champs league qualification
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I think if we start next season strongly, get luck with injuries and make a few good signings this summer then we can certainly get back into the top 4. I don't think we will get higher than that though, because we're trying to beat better squads with more money without superior tactics. I don't see how that bridge can be gapped, and I haven't seen any evidence that we do have the kind of tactical coherence required - a squad in which Suarez presses while 9 others are behind the half-way line is not a well-drilled side working to a clear plan, and is not going to consistently beat such sides, certainly not if they have better players.

Great post but this point sticks out. We need to think beyond 4th and CL, based on the evidence of last season, I don't think Kenny's tactics or team can get us beyond this even with the better luck. Had Kenny stuck with the free-flowing tactics and players when he was caretaker, I would have much more confidence that he could take us beyond fourth with a brand of football that is easy on the eye and more sophisticated then what we witnessed last season.
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Offline Carlos: Very Kickable

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I agree with the notion this post has of the positives of Kenny staying. However I think it's a bit hyperbolic. I was half expecting a 'If Kenny goes the terrorists have won' line.

That post suggests that Kenny is the end of the line, the last of a dynasty - I disagree. When we packed in the boot room and brought in a relatively unknown French man, we warmed to him as one of our own. When he left and a fresh faced Spaniard came in, we warmed to him as one of our own and he epitomised the Liverpool Way (to the point where he lost that fresh face!). We are bigger than one man. If Kenny is replaced (and he will be at some point), we will have to just ensure we bring in the right calibre of person who knows what we are all about, like we did with Ged and Rafa. I hope Kenny stays but we won't suddenly become 'just a franchise' if he goes.

That' s my point though.

The LFC way IS bigger than one man - the way you talk it's as though we can get a new manager in and that will define us as a club. But it won't - its the way WE act that defines "The Liverpool Way".

As Fats says above, if Kenny goes he will dust himself off and enjoy life with his grandkids - he will always be LFC.

We,on the other hand, will have dumped Rafa, Hodge and now Kenny in quick succession. It's US who are degraded not him. WE will have stopped acting in the Liverpool Way not him. Fair enough if there's a compelling reason he MUST go then he must go. We want success not an old boys club. But that's not the case at the moment is it? Playing in red, clapping the oppo keeper, singing YNWA is all part of who we are - part of the Liverpool Way. Get rid of those things and we ARE just a franchise. Backing the manager, eveen when times are hard - in fact ESPECIALLY when times are hard is what WE do. But times aren't even THAT hard - we've had a mixed season, two cup finals, Europe, Silverware and a disappointing league performance.

Bailing on the manager now removes a hugely important part of what this club is about - even if we replace him with someone else who 'gets' the club. How can we say to the new manager - you have a special relationship with the fans - we back you all the way because we believe in you? What's to stop us bailing on him too? What makes us different from the Skywashed plastic fans of other clubs?

There was a guy on the radio saying yesterday, you go through one divorce you can say 'fair enough', go through the second one and you have to look at yourself and ask if you're the real problem.
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Offline CRAZY HORSE EMLYN

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There may well be a thread needed on how to run a football club properly, or one on free advice on how to run LFC to FSG from the fans, but this isn't it. Its a thread on Kenny and his season past.
If this has run its course, we can lock it and move on, but a couple of things stand out for me:

We're supposed to be the life blood of the club according to Kenny, he'd have a fit if he read half the posts on here speculating on absolutely nothing. We want the club to keep things in house. When they do, we panic and guess and complain, and think Kenny's sat there like us, not knowing. Well he does or he doesn't. Frankly he has always struck me as the kind of guy who would leave on his terms, and therefore my guess is he knows what's happening, or he's happy not knowing. The rest is used up oxygen.

FSG are at the heart of this discussion, as they are the ones making the assessment of Kenny. Therefore it's salient to look at the position they have put Kenny in. But as my post regarding the owners seems to have disappeared into your precious 'oxygen' I won't bother contributing to the discussion? You lot are getting worse.
 
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Offline stevedo

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Closed doors is what we all wanted wasn't it?

They've made some decisions and made them quickly.

I don't want them responding to anything the press say. The media nowdays is there to stir it and get all the people that buy papers and believe their lies to go off on one.

We used to be a club that did everything behind closed doors and if we're getting to that again then great. If it annoys the media then fantastic. If it annoys the NOW NOW NOW!!! Fans who want everything yesterday and want the club to tell them everything then even better.

If LFC don't announce a thing over the whole summer then sounds good to me. If they are backing Kenny and it's done in-house then great.

No need to release any response IMO.
Exactly.

The Liverpool way should be what we all want. Fuck twatter, rumour spreading tabloid journos.
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Offline Walshy®

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I agree with the notion this post has of the positives of Kenny staying. However I think it's a bit hyperbolic. I was half expecting a 'If Kenny goes the terrorists have won' line.

Exactly, I agree.

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Offline stroller

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Part of the problem with last season and the transfer dealings in the two windows before that is Kenny's preference for British players. At Blackburn he bought mainly British players, while at NUFC his forays into the European market didn't go too well. I suspect Kenny feels more at home in the British transfer market. Totally understandable. It is like Rafa and his eye for Spanish and Latin players. A strong DoF and a much better scouting network needs to be in place so that Kenny can be given all the assistance he needs to get non-British players that are not his natural forte. His eye for a player no doubt is as keen as ever, regardless of where they come from. Last season it didn't work out, one or two of these players may develop into good players but the majority have been poor and a mistake if we are honest. He will need to sharpen up his expertise on non-British players if we are to do well this summer. He will need quality assistance and help to make the right decisions. It is key that FSG get on the ball with appointing the right DoF. 
This is key for me. Scouting for players needs to improve and not be reliant on the manager. If we kept Kenny and didn't rectify this, then I really think we will have another season like the last one

Offline doikc

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There are many reasons for Kenny to continue his work which have been well articulated. The results so far however, have been disappointing and lessons need to be learned. I'd like to know what role if any Sammy lee played in the kind of football played towards the end of last season? We could maybe hire a different kind of tactical coach to help Kenny out next season.

An argument can be made that we didn't buy well last season but the players were not properly coached either. If you don't have a budget to improve by buying players then you should have a coaching system where new players and young players can improve over a period of time.

If we are at a cross roads and the decisions made now have an impact on our future then I would prefer that people who know something about this club and football in general make these decisions not business men. My biggest issue is our structure. I think firing Comolli so quickly was a mistake and it has set a precedent that has now put Kenny in this particular situation.
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Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

This assertion that Kenny only buys British has been beaten like a dead horse, despite the fact that there is not any real evidence supporting it.  Last summer we brought in 6 new players (not counting Bellamy who was free).  Three were British:  Adam, Henderson, and Downing.  Three were not:  Enrique, Coates, Doni.  Further, nobody really knows what other players were considered, how the negotiations went or even who had final say between Kenny and DC.

There is some anecdotal evidence from DC's interviews that Premiere League experience was considered one of the boxes to tick, but there is no evidence that nationality ever played any role in the decisions.

Some people on here have become as bad as the journos, jumping to conclusions from mere speculation.
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Offline Cracking Left Foot

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This is just a small point and has no reflection on my view that is, Kenny should stay put for at least another sesaon....

However the argument of ferguson being given time at the toilet, could be countered with gollum across stanley park has been given 10 years and won nothing and fished above us twice in 10 years

conclusions........

In terms of the ability to win trophies, Kenny's CV is far closer to Ferguson's than it is to Moyes though.
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Offline Andy @ Allerton

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The problem is, anyone who says this season has been anything but a disaster is a liar or deluded. The target was top 4, we fell far short of that.

I love Kenny, hes a legend. However standing by him out of loyalty is a big mistake. If we keep him, I wont be dissapointed as such, but I wont hold any hope for anything next season. I will probably expect a top 7 target and a decent run in the cups.

If we do want to progress, its time to get a new manager... or an old one.  *runs and hides after that last comment*

A disaster would be getting relegated.
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Offline LondonRedMan

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This is just a small point and has no reflection on my view that is, Kenny should stay put for at least another sesaon....

However the argument of ferguson being given time at the toilet, could be countered with gollum across stanley park has been given 10 years and won nothing and fished above us twice in 10 years

conclusions........

In relative terms, Moyes has brought Everton success. He got them into the champions league and to cup finals/semi finals as well as Europa (?). He has ensured safety for them each season. For Everton this is good and if they are realists they will recognise that Moyes has been successful for them.

So the point of managers needing time still stands. Kenny needs to be given the backing and a long term contract

Offline LondonRedMan

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Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

This assertion that Kenny only buys British has been beaten like a dead horse, despite the fact that there is not any real evidence supporting it.  Last summer we brought in 6 new players (not counting Bellamy who was free).  Three were British:  Adam, Henderson, and Downing.  Three were not:  Enrique, Coates, Doni.  Further, nobody really knows what other players were considered, how the negotiations went or even who had final say between Kenny and DC.

There is some anecdotal evidence from DC's interviews that Premiere League experience was considered one of the boxes to tick, but there is no evidence that nationality ever played any role in the decisions.

Some people on here have become as bad as the journos, jumping to conclusions from mere speculation.

Offline royhendo

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Another point to add. FSG could indirectly affect England's Euro 2012. Can't imagine club upheaval and uncertainty will help GJ, SG and AC in their preparations for England.

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Offline DanA

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The problem is, anyone who says this season has been anything but a disaster is a liar or deluded. The target was top 4, we fell far short of that.

I love Kenny, hes a legend. However standing by him out of loyalty is a big mistake. If we keep him, I wont be disappointing as such, but I wont hold any hope for anything next season. I will probably expect a top 7 target and a decent run in the cups.

If we do want to progress, its time to get a new manager... or an old one.  *runs and hides after that last comment*

I agree with the sentiment bit, how standing by him out of loyalty is a big mistake. But i've got to wonder why you are so pessimistic about next season. We played good football, we were so close to winning so many times, to me it felt we were consistently a few key squad member short (and not expensive ones either). 

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Offline sketch

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I see the owners justification for both sacking and retaining.

I just really, really hope that the fans don't turn on Henry and co. if they decide to part ways with KK.
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Offline Hinesy

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FSG are at the heart of this discussion, as they are the ones making the assessment of Kenny. Therefore it's salient to look at the position they have put Kenny in. But as my post regarding the owners seems to have disappeared into your precious 'oxygen' I won't bother contributing to the discussion? You lot are getting worse.
 


Actually its a fair post you made so I moved it to here, where it sat better. We're trying to keep this about Kenny not about the owners and the way they run the club. Sorry we're getting worse.
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=293606.msg10330913#msg10330913
Yep.

Offline Jia Xiang

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Kenny Dalglish leave Liverpool.

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Locking this in light of his departure.
Yep.