Topic: Director of Football / Technical Director.

[Torpedo Tommy]

It's a sensible idea that most European clubs have been doing for decades. It's only in Britain were it's considered to be an evil concept.

That clears a lot of questions I had on the manager/DOF scenario.

I'm still not convinced there is a role though.  I'm a believer in everything revolving around the first team.  Whatever needs to happen to bring success to the first team needs to happen.  The rest, profit etc should look after itself with good management.

What makes me fearful of the DOF / Manager Concept is the relationship between the two has to be brilliant.  If it isn't and they don't both share exactly the same vision it is obvious that problems will arise.

Hypothetically speaking, we get Martinez in as coach and van Gaal as DOF.  The blueprint for our formation and style of play is already in place.  Let us say we operate in 4-4-2 and it becomes apparent we need a right winger.  van Gaal shortlists 3 very good £20m wingers but Martinez, having managed winger "A" and faced him on numerous occasions on an opposing team wants winger "A" at a much cheaper cost.

Who rules the roost in this instance?

Martinez gets his way and signs winger "A".  Naturally van Gaal is perplexed about this and when winger "A" suffers in his first season, would it not be in van Gaal's interest to brush off all responsibility for the signing?  There could be a million and one reasons why winger "A" hasn't bedded in but if I'm van Gaal then I might want to be pointing the finger of blame at Martinez for signing him and ignoring my recommendation.

van Gaal gets his way and all 3 £20m wingers sit down with the club.  van Gaal makes his preference known but Martinez is dubious of all 3's ability and suggests not to sign any of them.  We sign one and he is diabolical.  Again, there may be numerous reasons for this but Martinez will be inclined to shirk all responsibility for the signing.  It might be that Martinez has coached the winger poorly - it might be that he is poor.

You see, that is were responsibilities suddenly become very murky unless that relationship is based on 100% trust and belief and supported to the end by the Directors.

Rafa Benitez is one of the best tactical coach of players I have ever seen.  Why is it that Rafa wanted to have his own targets?  Because he knew that it was his neck on the block if the signing was poor.

If the manager has the final say in transfers then is a DOF nothing more than a pimped up scout?

For me, it is a role that has been engineered into football.  There are too many contradictions in what people interpret as its defining role.  If I'm a manager and my cock is on the block then I want my people around me performing not what someone else 'thinks'.

[gaijin_lfc]

Van Gaal is an incredibly demanding, arrogant and innovative coach who has an immense reputation in Germany and Holland. There is no way someone Martinez could simply "see him off".

It's probably the other way around.

Yeah, but if Liverpool looks oddly enamored with an underwhelming name and listens to his demands to see off one of the biggest and most successful people in football, that makes for a saucier story, which makes for more clicks, which makes for more money.

Shouldn't come as a surprise when every minor thing is spun as negatively as possible. People just can't get enough schaudenfreude when it comes to watching us suffer.

[Markus_12]

People are making the relationship between the DoF and the manager sound way too difficult.  How is it any different then what happened in the boot room?  All that happens is the DoF and manager get together with the scouts and pick out a transfer target, then the DoF goes out and gets him.  I think it is great to have multiple opinions on different players.

[PaLee]

The DOF/sporting director role is not a problematic role. It will help the manager so that he can focus on coaching/training/games preparation/motivating players. If you look at it positively.

[stoa]

Why?  Why have an appreciation for continental approaches to player skills/technique, formations, transfers etc but then when it comes to managers you go all British bulldog on us? 

I am not English, so I am in no way biased (in the sense that I have been brought up with all those myths about how football should work). I'm still not too fond of the DoF-idea the way it is described by lots of people on RAWK and in this thread. I don't believe in the DoF being the "keeper of the Holy Grail" with more power than the manager, because I feel it is unnecessarily complicated. The one who decides on what kind of football you play should ultimatively be the manager, because after all he is the one who has to actually do it on the pitch. I'm not against the DoF being the "watchful eye" looking at what the manager wants to do: i.e. which players he wants to sell/buy. It's just that I'm not too keen on having the DoF as some kind of "dictator" telling the manager what to do.

And one question still hasn't been answered: if you have a DoF leading the way and sack the manager you'll have to get a similar one to the first, so he can work with what he has. What's so different in a scenario where the manager leads the way, and simply getting a similar one who won't want to change everything, but can work with what he has? And with leading the way, I'm not saying that I want the manager to decide who manages the youth-teams, how they work at the academy or who is on his medical team. That can be done by the DoF. I just think it is important to give the manager full power as far as the playing side of things is concerned. Not saying that the DoF (or anyone else qualified enough for that matter like coaches) cannot give their views on certain things, but ultimatively it should be the manager who decides what happens on the pitch, because his job is on the line.


As far as van Gaal is concerned in the DoF-role, I'm pretty sceptical about that, because already you have people saying "Well, if things don't work out for Martinez/Rodgers van Gaal could take over". That's dangerous territory in my view.

That leads to another point I find a bit surprising. Before and after Kenny was sacked, I've read a lot of stuff about not wanting to become Chelsea or Newcastle with some kind of "revolving door"-policy in terms of managers. Yet, all you hear when there's talk about the role of the DoF is that it makes it easier to sack the manager. I'm not saying that that's what people want, but there certainly is some kind of underlying notion that any manager who'll come here next won't last very long. And that's what I don't get...

[Baz Smythe]

So is this still going to be Van Gaal working with Martinez. Gonna be very interesting

[rossipersiempre]

So is this still going to be Van Gaal working with Martinez. Gonna be very interesting

Pray to god it's neither.

[conman]

I'll never understand how on RAWK the majority of posters are ahead of the curve and don't buy into the British player media hype, don't like 442, think "blood and thunder" is an overrated concept, etc but then when it comes to the role of the manager instead of following the same route and buying into the continental philosophy they become hardcore conservatives and keep propagating the English myth of the messianic manager and hate the concept of a DOF.

Why?  Why have an appreciation for continental approaches to player skills/technique, formations, transfers etc but then when it comes to managers you go all British bulldog on us? 

I believe in the DOF position, but only if the DOF does not over shadow the role of the manager.

That quote from Segura is quite enlightening, as well as utterly frightening. I don't blame Martinez to be concerned about working in his shadow, as he would be essentially be Van Gaals coach.

[conman]

Pray to god it's neither.

[Billy The Kid.]

Pray to god it's neither.

Why? why not Van Gaal?

[Danny_]

People are making the relationship between the DoF and the manager sound way too difficult.  How is it any different then what happened in the boot room?  All that happens is the DoF and manager get together with the scouts and pick out a transfer target, then the DoF goes out and gets him.  I think it is great to have multiple opinions on different players.

It's the same as the continental system and works for some clubs in Italy and Spain.  Personally, I don't like it but it can produce good results - it just never has in the English game.  We need 3 really good footballing people for all 3 positions.  Kruyff would have been great for DOF but it looks like we can't get him.

[Juan Loco]

Why? why not Van Gaal?

It's Rossi. He's decided and now he's digging a trench around his view.

I want Van Gaal and Laudrup together, just to see how Rossi copes with it.

Dirk and Sami as assistants.

[Kopite B205]

Pray to god it's neither.

Van Gaal's experience, knowledge, credentials and achievements make him an outstanding candidate for either DOF or manager. I for one hope we get him; quite frankly I find yours - and others opinion of him on here utterly ludicrous.

[conman]

Why? why not Van Gaal?

my tuppence on this, is that having a manager as DOF would serve to increase the insecurities for any actual manager. Van Gaal has said he wants the managerial role. The Pep quote shows how good he is as a manager, how hands on he is with teaching the players. So, with that in mind, and taking into consideration his ego any manager would get to serve only as a coach of his teachings.
I could be talkin bollix, but that's my view and fear.

I do agree with the idea of having a DOF, but it should not be someone with a huge ego, who could want to manage the team.

[conman]

Van Gaal's experience, knowledge, credentials and achievements make him an outstanding candidate for either DOF or manager. I for one hope we get him; quite frankly I find yours - and others opinion on him on here utterly ludicrous.

as manager maybe imo.

[conman]

It's the same as the continental system and works for some clubs in Italy and Spain.  Personally, I don't like it but it can produce good results - it just never has in the English game.  We need 3 really good footballing people for all 3 positions.  Kruyff would have been great for DOF but it looks like we can't get him.

there are different ways to implement a DOF position, different takes on what power and influence the DOF should have. So, be careful saying it works in Italy, Spain, Germany. Because in fact its different variations that word for different clubs.

[stoa]

there are different ways to implement a DOF position, different takes on what power and influence the DOF should have. So, be careful saying it works in Italy, Spain, Germany. Because in fact its different variations that word for different clubs.

Exactly. Just take Germany as an example. If you look at who the clubs have as Sporting Directors almost every single one of them has little experience in managing. The only exception to that would be Rudi Völler at Leverkusen, but he has such a connection with the club that it doesn't matter. And he used to manage them before.

I have to say I share your fears about van Gaal taking the job as DoF...

[Agent99]

Van Gaal has said he wants the managerial role.

Where has he said this? Are there quotes from him where he says he wants to be the Manager of Liverpool?

[Saint Kopite™]

It's Rossi. He's decided and now he's digging a trench around his view.

I want Van Gaal and Laudrup together, just to see how Rossi copes with it.

Dirk and Sami as assistants.

Well, It would be much easier for him in that case because in case any wrongs happen we know who would be blamed.

[Baz Smythe]

Van Gaals philosophy;

When asked about his system in 2008, van Gaal said: "It's a footballing philosophy more than a system. A system depends on the players you have. I played 4–3–3 with Ajax, 2–3–2–3 with Barcelona and I can play 4–4–2 with AZ. I'm flexible. The philosophy stays the same though. I don't think that you can adapt it to every possible situation. You need the right mindset, and it depends on how the players see the coach and vice versa. The coach is the focal point of the team but you need to have an open mind, and so do all the players. Everyone needs to work together to achieve a common goal. Preparing your tactical formation is essential. Each player needs to know where he has to be, and that is why there needs to be mutual understanding because you need absolute discipline. This is a sport played by 22 men, and there are 11 opponents out there playing as a team. Each individual needs to know who he has to beat and be there to support his team-mates."

He knows the inner workings of Ajax, Barcelona and Bayern Munich, 3 of the biggest teams in the world and renowned for bringing through youth players. Having him helping us out so our club can bring through youth players, attract bigger stars, and helping bring though a philosophy at Liverpool with Segura and Martinez can only be a good thing. They all seem to favour 4-3-3 but can tinker about with it to get the best out of their players. I can just see them now sharing a few bottles of red after a game talking shop. It'll be a 21st century boot room. Magnificent

[killer_heels]

What gives anyone the confidence that Van Gaal, a guy who albeit is a fantastic manager (I would give him the job without hesitation), would make a good DOF, considering the knowledge and shared view that the guy is a nightmare to work with, hasn't actually had any mass experience in such a role and himself stated on several occasions that he wants to go into a coaching role?

[Saint Kopite™]

What gives anyone the confidence that Van Gaal, a guy who albeit is a fantastic manager (I would give him the job without hesitation), would make a good DOF, considering the knowledge and shared view that the guy is a nightmare to work with, hasn't actually had any mass experience in such a role and himself stated on several occasions that he wants to go into a coaching role?

Exactly my worry. Also, The main objective of having a DoF/SD is because you have someone for the long term perspective. But I don't see how Van Gaal would stay with us for a long duration considering his ego and his history of falling out with player, management and higher authorities.

[Baz Smythe]

What gives anyone the confidence that Van Gaal, a guy who albeit is a fantastic manager (I would give him the job without hesitation), would make a good DOF, considering the knowledge and shared view that the guy is a nightmare to work with, hasn't actually had any mass experience in such a role and himself stated on several occasions that he wants to go into a coaching role?

How many clubs has he left due to being a nightmare to work with? Or left because of internal conflict. As far as I'm aware it's only 1, Rafa has 2 is he nightmare?

[killer_heels]

How many clubs has he left due to being a nightmare to work with? Or left because of internal conflict. As far as I'm aware it's only 1, Rafa has 2 is he nightmare?

That is fine as a manager but would that work with a DOF, where the whole point maybe to jointly make decisions and work with others. Also, he has stated that he wants to manage. All I am asking is is there any evidence to suggest he would work in such a role? Would it not be best to get a proven person in such a role?

[Baz Smythe]

That is fine as a manager but would that work with a DOF, where the whole point maybe to jointly make decisions and work with others. Also, he has stated that he wants to manage. All I am asking is is there any evidence to suggest he would work in such a role? Would it not be best to get a proven person in such a role?

He was going to be appointed to a board of Ajax and share decision making Cruyff and a couple others but as Cruyff wanted all the power he took the board to court and won. So that says to me he was happy to have a bit part at Ajax, he'll actually get a bigger part here.

[conman]

Where has he said this? Are there quotes from him where he says he wants to be the Manager of Liverpool?

I'm going by what was said on these boards a few weeks ago, i don't have any quotes at hand. It could have been conjecture by some.

[conman]

Van Gaals philosophy;

he most certainly has some very positive attributes. My fears relate to his personality. Do we have any further info on his relationships internally within clubs?

[DeclanYNWA]

There doesn't have to be dischord between the DOF/SD and the manager, it doesn't have to make any manager feel inadequate.  It's there to help take the managers mind off of anything other than football.  Doesn't mean the DOF will get his players, the manager won't, of vice versa.  That's just a bunch of nonsense made up by you lot because you've got fuck all else to do but dream up nonsensical scenarios in your head.  It works at clubs all across Europe and it works a Man city and Cheslea, who just won the league and the CL.  FSG won't hire people who aren't willing to work in this style of system, full stop.

[Kopite B205]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/raphael_honigstein/04/14/vangaal.bayern/index.html

[conman]

There doesn't have to be dischord between the DOF/SD and the manager, it doesn't have to make any manager feel inadequate.  It's there to help take the managers mind off of anything other than football.  Doesn't mean the DOF will get his players, the manager won't, of vice versa.  That's just a bunch of nonsense made up by you lot because you've got fuck all else to do but dream up nonsensical scenarios in your head.  It works at clubs all across Europe and it works a Man city and Cheslea, who just won the league and the CL.  FSG won't hire people who aren't willing to work in this style of system, full stop.

depends on who the DOF is and what the role of the DOF is. We don't know either, so we can only debate based on our opinions and past experiences.

[Baz Smythe]

he most certainly has some very positive attributes. My fears relate to his personality. Do we have any further info on his relationships internally within clubs?

Nope;
Ajax 1991-1997 Won 3 leagues, uefa cup and a champions league left as his contract ran out and was then knighted For the order of Orange-Nassau
Barcelona 1997-2000 Won 2 la ligas and said the media pushed him out of a job. He left to take over as Dutch manager but failed to qualify for World cup so he stepped down from his role their.

He then went to Ajax as technical director and had an internal conflict there and left.

AZ - 2005-2009 Won the league with them (impressive)
Bayern 2009-2011 Won the league with Bayern but was sacked year layer for finishing third. (Chelsea)

So he has only left 1 post due an internal conflict. Not bad in 20 years of management. Has always worked with his staff as well so they must like him and not find him that troublesome.

I think he'll be fine but what do I know I'm just the guy who checks the facts and not just blindly believes what others think.

[Shady77]

2–3–2–3 with Barcelona

fucking cant wrap my head around how that works

[Juan Loco]

fucking cant wrap my head around how that works

It's 4-3-3 in the Barcelona mould.

[locultom]

fucking cant wrap my head around how that works

                Skrtl                Agger

Johnson           Lucas                Enrique

            Gerrard           Henderson

Suarez            Carroll                Bellamy

[rocco]

Van Gaal interesting shout as Manager but as DOF not so sure but would be a interesting choice

[Baz Smythe]

Van Gaal interesting shout as Manager but as DOF not so sure but would be a interesting choice

It's a gamble, but fuck it we've played safe the past few years and where has that got us.

[Agent99]

I'm going by what was said on these boards a few weeks ago, i don't have any quotes at hand. It could have been conjecture by some.

Fair enough mate. I saw the reports last week of him saying he was ready to coach again but just thought I had missed a recent interview where he stated directly that he wanted to be our Manager and not DOF.

[Shady77]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/raphael_honigstein/04/14/vangaal.bayern/index.html

how the hell he's going to be able to work side by side with someone else is beyond me + as far as manager goes we've had enough of the school headmaster approach from Rafa, doesn't get the best of your players on a consistent basis for me

[Shady77]

It's 4-3-3 in the Barcelona mould.

cheers, lightbulbs gone off , all this sun + it being a monday

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

                Skrtl                Agger

Johnson           Lucas                Enrique

            Shelvey           Henderson

Gerrard            Carroll                Suarez

For me