Topic: General Transfer Discussion about LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB

[SP]

But generally wages correlate with transfer fees anyway, if you're making a 30 million pound signing more often than not they'll be on high wages. The past couple of seasons we've been mugs & over paid, considerably for a few players.

Not when you are owned by H&G. They could not stump up large transfer fees because they were in hock to RBS. Thus they looked to deal like Aquilani was the payment was deferred, and deals like Joe Cole with no transfer fees. The club's transfer dealings were horribly distorted by that regime. It may have been how Rafa was able to work around the strictures placed upon him, but it means that wages were not rational. It certainly blew that nominal correlation.

Besides transfer fees are very age dependent. A 30 year old has a much reduced transfer value as the sell on potential disappears. They are probably on higher wages than a much more valuable 27 year old though.

[barnseysleftpeg]

That's what he is. A lot of his goals come from being in the right place at the right time.

Thanks for that

[Jeffe]

Do you have any link?

From late last night: http://www.tuttomercatoweb.com/?action=read&id=361733

[Cpt_Reina]

If I'm not mistaken that €7M would get 50% of Borini, which is owned by Parma. So the total value of the player would be around €14M.

Apparently 50% of him wont cost that much.

Both teams seem unwilling to pay up the full amount. Looks as if at the blind auction (the next stage of bidding) 50% of him will cost around €4m-€5m.

[BarryCrocker]

If I'm not mistaken that €7M would get 50% of Borini, which is owned by Parma. So the total value of the player would be around €14M.

We should offer Roma €7.2M considering we sold them Riise for €5m and they sold us Aquilani for €20m. About time we came out with some sort of positive when dealing with the Giallorossi.

[SP]

We have slashed wages?

Didn't the last financial report show that we Increased our wage bill not reduce it? I'll try to find a link to it.

The reporting cycle is horribly out of date. FSG were appalled by the salary bill when they took over, and they have pledged to bring it under control.

[Acaustiq]

Had it been just last season, I might have agreed. But for the past three years, we have been 6th-8th. We are behind the best sides. We are not a top four team anymore. We haven't got that kind of quality. Three years of league performances show that.

Aye, we can engage in delusion all day long but the overall mentality of our squad is very much mid table.

We need to be signing winners; you want to break down Stoke and win games 'we should win' - you sign players who are used to playing in that situation, under that kind of pressure every week. Or you find some way to bottle 'essence of Shelvey' and force Downing to take it intravenously.

There's no massive mystery to it.

In today's market that's unrealistic imo. To make that work we'd have to make atleast 10 million back in player sales & I can't see where we'll recoup that money. Even if we sold Cole, Adam & Maxi I can't see us getting 10 million.

Jones, Maxi, Downing, Spearing, Wilson, Adam, Eccleston, Gulacsi, Aqua, Cole, possibly Pacheco.

Thing is, I actually believe we'd find some way to get less than ten million for them.

[SF Red]

We have slashed wages?

Didn't the last financial report show that we Increased our wage bill not reduce it? I'll try to find a link to it.

Those wages were from 2010-2011 (which were higher than 2009-2010) before last summer's transfers.

Not sure if the wages were really reduced much, but they were probably reduced a bit.  The real reductions will occur when Cole/Carra/Maxi come off the wage bill.  Obviously, Kuyt will be off next year.

[Packalacky]

The reporting cycle is horribly out of date. FSG were appalled by the salary bill when they took over, and they have pledged to bring it under control.

Well, they have pledged to do it, but that is not the same as actually doing it. Unless we get rid of players like Joe 100K a week Cole and Carra, our wage bill will continue to be quite large.

At the moment I haven't seen anything that would indicate our wage bill is decreasing. Carroll, Adams, Henderson and Downing are all reportedly on £65k+ a week, and that can't be attributed to FSG. The current owners have contributed to the problem and passing the buck to FSG all the time isn't going to solve things.

[greenstien]

Do you have any link?

THe translation isn't great but here it is:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tuttomercatoweb.com%2F%3Faction%3Dread%26id%3D361733

Here is the original
http://www.tuttomercatoweb.com/?action=read&id=361733

[BarryCrocker]

The reporting cycle is horribly out of date. FSG were appalled by the salary bill when they took over, and they have pledged to bring it under control.

Still got the 2nd highest in MLB.

[ghost1359]

But the reduction in the wage bill may well be significant. £100K a week is over £5M per year. Thus selling Cole for nothing could save the club £10M over 2 years. Changing a squad player for a younger player who earns £20k a week less would save £1M per year.

Selling Dirk did not raise much of a transfer fee, but would have saved a lot of money in wages. Transfer fees are the headline figures, but are likely to be far less significant than wages in the money that the club recoups from player sales.

I see what you're saying but on the other end of that there are players within our squad who will be wanting a pay rise, so you have to balance it out. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Skrtel, Agger, Lucas & Suarez all get new deals within the next 12 months & you'd have to assume they'll all be getting significantly more than they're on right now, Suarez & Lucas especially. We will make savings on the wage bill, there's no doubt about that but I don't see it being a significant amount when you consider how much will then be pumped back in to player wages.

[johna999]

Well, they have pledged to do it, but that is not the same as actually doing it. Unless we get rid of players like Joe 100K a week Cole and Carra, our wage bill will continue to be quite large.

At the moment I haven't seen anything that would indicate our wage bill is decreasing. Carroll, Adams, Henderson and Downing are all reportedly on £65k+ a week, and that can't be attributed to FSG. The current owners have contributed to the problem and passing the buck to FSG all the time isn't going to solve things.

No way Adam on £65k a week. He was at Blackpool who paid the lowest wages in the premiership that season, he'd have been on £15k there tops. Can't see him being on more than £40k here. I hope it would have been £30-£35k with a review this year if he had played a certain amount of games/performance related. Same thing for Raul when he was here, he was on supposedly around the £30-£35k with a promise of a review in the summer we sold him.

[CraigDS]

Well, they have pledged to do it, but that is not the same as actually doing it. Unless we get rid of players like Joe 100K a week Cole and Carra, our wage bill will continue to be quite large.

At the moment I haven't seen anything that would indicate our wage bill is decreasing. Carroll, Adams, Henderson and Downing are all reportedly on £65k+ a week, and that can't be attributed to FSG. The current owners have contributed to the problem and passing the buck to FSG all the time isn't going to solve things.

No, they actually have slashed it.

Getting rid of the likes of Jovanovic, part wages paid for Cole and Aquilani, Poulson, Koncheskey, Degen, Torres all slashed it (plus a load of 'squad' players which all add up). And those coming in to replace them would not of been on as high a wage.

This will carry on no doubt, with Aurellio and Kuyt being the first two. No doubt at least one of Cole and Aquilani will be out the door too.

[scatman]

No way Adam on £65k a week. He was at Blackpool who paid the lowest wages in the premiership that season, he'd have been on £15k there tops. Can't see him being on more than £40k here. I hope it would have been £30-£35k with a review this year if he had played a certain amount of games/performance related. Same thing for Raul when he was here, he was on supposedly around the £30-£35k with a promise of a review in the summer we sold him.

Adam is on 65k, it was reported earlier in the season from his own mouth.

[CraigDS]

I think some people are forgetting that FSG have come out numerous times and said they don't mind paying good wages, and have the ability to increase the clubs wage bill, but they want value for those wages rather than some of the crap we've had in the past (i.e. Cole and Jovanovic being two on massive wages offering next to nothing for it).

[Zlenpasha]

Love this transfer window.
Other then Sigurdsson who's situation is specific we're very secretive about our targets and I actually have some hidden hope we could do some good business this summer.

[L666KOP]

In today's market that's unrealistic imo. To make that work we'd have to make atleast 10 million back in player sales & I can't see where we'll recoup that money. Even if we sold Cole, Adam & Maxi I can't see us getting 10 million.

It's not unrealistic though is it, if we accept that the 8m quoted for Gylfi is fact, then 3 players of his quality would cost 24m, we've got 1 for Dirk, so realistically we need to find 3 million, so if we shift Aquillani which is looking likely, we may get another couple, but the real saving will be wages, Gylfi won't be on 80k like Dirk was, and another 8m player won't be on AA wages.
If anything it will make our scouting network work harder, and FSG have already addressed this area with the sacking of DC and the recruitment of the pair from City.
It's a common misconception that to be successful you need to spend big.
City's 'most valuable' player (to the team) is in my opinion, Kompany and he cost what? 6 million?

Let's not forget, by reducing our wage bill, and we can make significant savings in this department, will increase our spending power significantly. I'm not going to guess peoples wages but I think it's reasonable to assume the amounts listed below.
Cole 90-100k
AA   70-80k
Kuyt 70-80k
Maxi 70-80k

These players have either gone, looking likely to go, or we could do without.
Saving between 300 and 340k a week. Yearly that's 15.6 - 17.68million, for players that between them contributed less than 50 games to the club.
You're not so far away from one of these 'marquee' signings that people are banging on about.

[-Q-]

Aye, we can engage in delusion all day long but the overall mentality of our squad is very much mid table.
There's no massive mystery to it.

Jones, Maxi, Downing, Spearing, Wilson, Adam, Eccleston, Gulacsi, Aqua, Cole, possibly Pacheco.

Thing is, I actually believe we'd find some way to get less than ten million for them.

I think that is exactly why Kenny wanted to win the cups, to make the players who never won anything want to win more. This is why I am glad our players are doing well in Euros and I hope they will be back happy and full of confidence. Further the new coach - I think despite his age and lack of experience there is this charisma and confidence that surrounds him and the players and fans are looking forward to see what can he do.

Jones, Maxi would most likely go on free. Whilst I wouldn't be averse to selling them, Downing and Adam are unlikely to leave as I don't see them wanting to leave or be forced out. We will be playing a lot of games next season and this is why I think most of the players will be kept and after the first year the new manager will see what needs to be done, I really don't see any major changes this year, just a few additions.

[incredibleL4ever]

The job of fixing the wage structure takes time.....a few season really.  FSG's problem was not the wages per se, but the results that a team that are paid so well are getting.  The wages would be justified if we are getting Champions league revenue.  To fix the problem takes 3 steps - 1. Reduced the overall wage bill by replacing highly paid under-performing players, 2. Increase overall revenue (commercial revenues in particular plus the new TV deal will help) and 3. Getting better results, hence the manager change.  FSG know that its a delicate balancing act, but it is easy enough to see that we could replace Kuyt, Aquilani, Cole and (say) Maxi and Adam who cost about 16m per annum after taking the part payment of wages by Lille and Milan, with Sigunarsson (sp), Sterling, and one other costing 6m per annum.  With the Warrior deal and the new Sky deal from 2013 our revenues will go up by 20m anyway and if we can also make it into the Champions League then the problem is well sorted.

[L666KOP]

Adam is on 65k, it was reported earlier in the season from his own mouth.

I'm fucking staggered, so he went from 12 at Blackpool to 65 here?
That's astounding, another reason why DC bit the bullet perhaps.

[swordfishtrombone]

Not when you are owned by H&G. They could not stump up large transfer fees because they were in hock to RBS. Thus they looked to deal like Aquilani was the payment was deferred, and deals like Joe Cole with no transfer fees. The club's transfer dealings were horribly distorted by that regime. It may have been how Rafa was able to work around the strictures placed upon him, but it means that wages were not rational. It certainly blew that nominal correlation.

You're absolutely right, and there's also a knock on effect. Not only are many of the players we signed during the H+G era on inflated wages but we continue to pay many of our new signings inflated wages, presumably to keep some kind of parity amongst our squad. Its crazy though - I firmly believe that if we'd signed Cabaye and Ba we'd have paid them £50k+ instead of the £30k Newcastle are paying or if Spurs had signed Henderson or Adam they'd only be paying them £40k a week. In turn this means that when it comes to selling players, they're almost always on wages far in excess of what prospective buyers are willing to pay. This means we end up with smaller incoming transfer fees, or a steady drain on our finances as we pay wages to players who aren't even at the club.

Even with all the work we've done, its still going to take another season or two before we see recover from the ludicrous wage decisions of the past, and that's assuming we don't go on making the same mistakes.

[Discipline]

Adam is on 65k, it was reported earlier in the season from his own mouth.

I'd like to see that.

[L666KOP]

You're absolutely right, and there's also a knock on effect. Not only are many of the players we signed during the H+G era on inflated wages but we continue to pay many of our new signings inflated wages, presumably to keep some kind of parity amongst our squad. Its crazy though - I firmly believe that if we'd signed Cabaye and Ba we'd have paid them £50k+ instead of the £30k Newcastle are paying or if Spurs had signed Henderson or Adam they'd only be paying them £40k a week. Even with all the work we've done, its still going to take another season or two before we see recover from the ludicrous wage decisions of the past, and that's assuming we don't go on making the same mistakes.

I'm convinced also.
Makes a mockery though, because players that really would make a difference will be jibbed rather than pay them 120grand a week.
If we paid the likes of Adam and Henderson etc what they were worth we'd have money for a 'aguero' type.

[BarryCrocker]

I'm fucking staggered, so he went from 12 at Blackpool to 65 here?
That's astounding, another reason why DC bit the bullet perhaps.

Adebayor went from £80k to £170k from Arsenal to Man City. In all seriousness would you take less than 50% of a player standing beside you in any team?

[CraigDS]

I'm convinced also.
Makes a mockery though, because players that really would make a difference will be jibbed rather than pay them 120grand a week.
If we paid the likes of Adam and Henderson etc what they were worth we'd have money for a 'aguero' type.

£250k a week?!

[Gnurglan]

No, they actually have slashed it.

Getting rid of the likes of Jovanovic, part wages paid for Cole and Aquilani, Poulson, Koncheskey, Degen, Torres all slashed it (plus a load of 'squad' players which all add up). And those coming in to replace them would not of been on as high a wage.

This will carry on no doubt, with Aurellio and Kuyt being the first two. No doubt at least one of Cole and Aquilani will be out the door too.

Unfortunately, we haven't solved the problem. Naturally, it was a good thing to lose Degen, Konchesky, Poulsen and Jovanovic. Torres wasn't good to lose. I know he's seen as the devil himself, but we're weaker without him. We've lost Aurelio and Kuyt. Cole isn't gone. Aquilani isn't gone.

But for all the money we saved on those wages, we spent 80M on what I consider backup players last summer and they're not playing for free. Carra is probably 4th pick CB now and he's still here.

I think this is typical for how we've done things in recent years. We take a hard stance in one area. Jova - gone! Konchesky - gone! Kuyt - gone! Meireles - can't have a pay rise! And it's party all around.
Next we ship truck loads of money out, almost as charity, to clubs and players. And we try to say this is an improvement.

[L666KOP]

£250k a week?!

Would you swap cole, maxi kuyt and AA for Aguero?

[L666KOP]

Adebayor went from £80k to £170k from Arsenal to Man City. In all seriousness would you take less than 50% of a player standing beside you in any team?

City can't be used as the benchmark though can they, money means nothing to them, they can afford not to be smart we can't.

[CraigDS]

Would you swap cole, maxi kuyt and AA for Aguero?

Of course, but it's not really as easy as that.

You do that and pay £250k a week to him then what will Gerrard want. Or Suarez. Or even further down the ladder the likes of Reina, Agger and Skrtel. Lucas even. And then anyone joining in the future.

I have no problem paying players £100k a week, or even paying Cole, Kuyt, etc that much if they add that much value to the team.

[Carlito Roberto]

Unfortunately, we haven't solved the problem. Naturally, it was a good thing to lose Degen, Konchesky, Poulsen and Jovanovic. Torres wasn't good to lose. I know he's seen as the devil himself, but we're weaker without him. We've lost Aurelio and Kuyt. Cole isn't gone. Aquilani isn't gone.

But for all the money we saved on those wages, we spent 80M on what I consider backup players last summer and they're not playing for free. Carra is probably 4th pick CB now and he's still here.

I think this is typical for how we've done things in recent years. We take a hard stance in one area. Jova - gone! Konchesky - gone! Kuyt - gone! Meireles - can't have a pay rise! And it's party all around.
Next we ship truck loads of money out, almost as charity, to clubs and players. And we try to say this is an improvement.

Good post mate.

[ghost1359]

It's not unrealistic though is it, if we accept that the 8m quoted for Gylfi is fact, then 3 players of his quality would cost 24m, we've got 1 for Dirk, so realistically we need to find 3 million, so if we shift Aquillani which is looking likely, we may get another couple, but the real saving will be wages, Gylfi won't be on 80k like Dirk was, and another 8m player won't be on AA wages.
If anything it will make our scouting network work harder, and FSG have already addressed this area with the sacking of DC and the recruitment of the pair from City.
It's a common misconception that to be successful you need to spend big.
City's 'most valuable' player (to the team) is in my opinion, Kompany and he cost what? 6 million?

Let's not forget, by reducing our wage bill, and we can make significant savings in this department, will increase our spending power significantly. I'm not going to guess peoples wages but I think it's reasonable to assume the amounts listed below.
Cole 90-100k
AA   70-80k
Kuyt 70-80k
Maxi 70-80k

These players have either gone, looking likely to go, or we could do without.
Saving between 300 and 340k a week. Yearly that's 15.6 - 17.68million, for players that between them contributed less than 50 games to the club.
You're not so far away from one of these 'marquee' signings that people are banging on about.

I hope you're right & we do start picking up some gems in the transfer market because I agree wholeheartedly with you that they're there but I don't think we'll come in at a net spend under 20 million. No way, under 30 million maybe. There are 3 main areas in the squad right now that everyone agrees we need to strengthen, we need a centre mid, a winger & a striker. Then there's lb, dm & cb, we've been linked with a couple of each so I'll be surprised if we don't pick up atleast one for one of those areas.

Those 3 main positions are not cheap to fill, much as Sigurdsson looks a player there's no doubting he's a risk, if he works out at 8 million he'll be a fantastic buy because goal scoring midfielders are usually upward of 10 million, wingers again, unless we get a relatively young, relatively untested winger you're looking at 10-15 million & the same with a striker, if you go for someone with a decent record you're looking at upward of 10 million.

As for your point about wages, as I said in a post just 10 minutes ago, the money you save on wages will inevitably go straight back in to the wage pot just distributed more sensibly. Lucas, Suarez, Agger & Skrtel will all probably be getting new deals at some point in which you'd be expecting they'll all get relatively sizeable pay rises (10-20k a week) then there's the wages new players will be on, which even if we do incredibly well you'd have to think will all be atleast 40/50k a week, possibly higher. I'd be willing to bet that little of any of the money we save from cutting the wage bill will go into the pot for paying transfer fees.

[Acaustiq]

We will be playing a lot of games next season and this is why I think most of the players will be kept and after the first year the new manager will see what needs to be done, I really don't see any major changes this year, just a few additions.

We hope we'll be playing a lot of games; we could end up playing 70 or 42, you don't know.

[No666]

I'd like to see that.

So would I. Takes publicity seeking to a new height that he announced his own finances to the world at large.

[L666KOP]

.

As for your point about wages, as I said in a post just 10 minutes ago, the money you save on wages will inevitably go straight back in to the wage pot just distributed more sensibly. Lucas, Suarez, Agger & Skrtel will all probably be getting new deals at some point in which you'd be expecting they'll all get relatively sizeable pay rises (10-20k a week) then there's the wages new players will be on, which even if we do incredibly well you'd have to think will all be atleast 40/50k a week, possibly higher. I'd be willing to bet that little of any of the money we save from cutting the wage bill will go into the pot for paying transfer fees.

I agree re the redistribution of wages, players like Skrtel, Lucas etc have earned their big contracts, Henderson, Cole etc haven't. This is where we need to be smart, and I agree that little if any of saved wages will go back into the transfer pot, but it might just mean that our transfer pot doesn't have to prop up our wages pot.

[classycarra]

I'm fucking staggered, so he went from 12 at Blackpool to 65 here?
That's astounding, another reason why DC bit the bullet perhaps.

if that's true, whoever was negotiating that should have been sacked on the spot

[L666KOP]

Of course, but it's not really as easy as that.

You do that and pay £250k a week to him then what will Gerrard want. Or Suarez. Or even further down the ladder the likes of Reina, Agger and Skrtel. Lucas even. And then anyone joining in the future.

I have no problem paying players £100k a week, or even paying Cole, Kuyt, etc that much if they add that much value to the team.

It's all about being able to realise what a player is worth to the team, Cole and Gerrard on similar wages? Adam, if previous posts are to be believed, on more than Skrtel?
Charlie Adam knows he's not worth as much to the team as Skrtel, likewise Cole knows he's not as important as Suarez/Gerrard etc, so why would they expect parity?

[BarryCrocker]

City can't be used as the benchmark though can they, money means nothing to them, they can afford not to be smart we can't.

Modric would probably triple his pay if he moved to Chelsea or ManU. Unfortunately, when you have a pay structure that has your top player earning £120k per week everything else falls into certain layers.

There’s a reason we can’t offload players like Joe Cole.

[filopastry]

It's not unrealistic though is it, if we accept that the 8m quoted for Gylfi is fact, then 3 players of his quality would cost 24m, we've got 1 for Dirk, so realistically we need to find 3 million, so if we shift Aquillani which is looking likely, we may get another couple, but the real saving will be wages, Gylfi won't be on 80k like Dirk was, and another 8m player won't be on AA wages.
If anything it will make our scouting network work harder, and FSG have already addressed this area with the sacking of DC and the recruitment of the pair from City.
It's a common misconception that to be successful you need to spend big.
City's 'most valuable' player (to the team) is in my opinion, Kompany and he cost what? 6 million?

Let's not forget, by reducing our wage bill, and we can make significant savings in this department, will increase our spending power significantly. I'm not going to guess peoples wages but I think it's reasonable to assume the amounts listed below.
Cole 90-100k
AA   70-80k
Kuyt 70-80k
Maxi 70-80k

These players have either gone, looking likely to go, or we could do without.
Saving between 300 and 340k a week. Yearly that's 15.6 - 17.68million, for players that between them contributed less than 50 games to the club.
You're not so far away from one of these 'marquee' signings that people are banging on about.

There's no way we're getting rid of Cole without paying off most of the remaining value on his contract, one way or another though.

[Studog]

There's no way we're getting rid of Cole without paying off most of the remaining value on his contract, one way or another though.

unless they do what they've done with other players: sell the player for a really low transfer value, thus freeing up money on the other end for the buying club to pay a bit more. Like Kuyt