Topic: Not being Barca

[Filter]

The new revised reserve league structure and the Next gen will both hopefully be useful improvements and the new lets pinch any good kids and pay little clubs peanuts (elite player development) policy is another change the impact of which has still to be measured - but there is still a huge gap between 18 and 21 and first eam football - one you can drive a coach and horses through -  the lets teach the kids the 'Liverpool Way' approach is buggered when in order to get first team experience they have to go to Northampton or Rayo Vallecano to get it

The next gen's effect is minimal I think. Reserve league can be important as far as the transition from youth to first team football goes, but I think the main issues are way before that. I think Germany is a prime example of how youth development should be revised and what kind of effect that has. But England has a serious lack of qualified coaches compared to countries like Spain, Germany and Holland who are praised for their youth development. That seriously affects the way kids are scouted, selected and taught to play.

[corkboy]

I did.

You said you don't hit 32 and develop skills you never had.  Gerrard had the skills, but he is now too much of a valuable match winner to be a discplined defensive one.

If by skills you mean "liking a tackle" then we still disagree. That's not what a good holding mid should be. And he isn't indisciplined in that role because he's a match winner, it's because he's indisplined.

[Z e u s]

If by skills you mean "liking a tackle" then we still disagree. That's not what a good holding mid should be. And he isn't indisciplined in that role because he's a match winner, it's because he's indisplined.

Now he is, but he didn't use to be.  He was the holding player for England with Scholes and was brilliant at it.

[corkboy]

Now he is, but he didn't use to be.  He was the holding player for England with Scholes and was brilliant at it.

We'll have to disagree then. Gerrard has never been a top class holding mid.

[Z e u s]

We'll have to disagree then. Gerrard has never been a top class holding mid.

Yeah I'm happy to agree to disagree.  Both of us agree he should be used higher up the field in the future.

[Vulmea]

The next gen's effect is minimal I think.

I think it gets underestimated - it is a massive learning curve for the kids - the traveling, cultures, styles of football, pressure, tv coverage, quality of opposition - there's also the fact its U19 and gives an opportunity for the 3rd year scholars to be kept on maybe mature physically and have a 2nd chance to impress. Its also a extra half dozen quality games.

In terms of how it relates to the Barca discussion I think it provides the biggest contrasts of styles for the young lads to cope with and certainly exposed short comings in our tactical and technical excellence this season. If nothing else it sjows the coaches the extent of  the short comings.

[Gnurglan]

Why do teams have to have a "way"? Why can't you adapt your football tactics/philosphy per game? I understand the Liverpool way off the pitch and how we express and represent ourselves but i've never been overkeen of having a "way" on the pitch, Barca came unstuck this year in both the league and the Champions League using the "Barca way" they were very one dimensional vs. Chelsea and didn't adapt their tactics during the game.

You are best off with a platform to start from. It creates stability and it helps you get the right types of players in. You know what to look for. Based on that platform, you make changes accordingly. I think we have tactical variations in every game and from game to game, but they are based on that platform. The platform is the "way".

If we talk style of play, it's very demanding to expect players to play tiki-taka one week and the next they should master the longball game. It's not realistic to expect players, or a team, to have that kind of flexibility.

Barca's weakness is IMO that they no longer have Ibrahimovic. They lack that alternative to their attack. It didn't show when they were able to press teams all game long. That said, it's a rather unique situation for them. They dominated the games vs Chelsea and Chelsea had maximum return on their chances. Barca lost, but are still a better side.

[Vulmea]

Barca's weakness is IMO that they no longer have Ibrahimovic. They lack that alternative to their attack. It didn't show when they were able to press teams all game long. That said, it's a rather unique situation for them. They dominated the games vs Chelsea and Chelsea had maximum return on their chances. Barca lost, but are still a better side.

its tricky though isn't it because one of the benefits of the current barca game plan is that they just keep going - they wear the opposition down tire them out, create opportunities late in games because sides have basically played 90 minutes chasing the ball - the lack of a plan B is seen as a plus its about belief in the system

I dont think Chelsea could have complained if they'd lost both games 3 - 0 - its been a crazy season and its the one reason I have not dismissed Chelsea's chances against Bayern

but Chelsea's tactics and Inters before them,  those of virtually complete lack of ambition - allows those sides to retain their fitness to the late stages, and the repetitive nature of the possession and attacks allows a certain defensive focus - there's no real mixing up and so defences can just absorb and cover - at time its cries out for  a roll of the dice,  a high risk attack just to wrong foot the opposition - in Barca terms that appears to be treated as a release of the pressure rather than a shift in balance

If I'm reading most peoples comments rightly then we need to play with intelligence and that intelligence should allow a degree of flexibility that I dont really see at Barca - its not necessarily long ball or short ball  its more a question of when and where each is apppropriate - and that should not just be put the big man upfront for the last 10 minutes - if like against Chelsea Andy terrorises their defence then that needs to be exploited, if Suarez is on form and nut megging players for fun he needs the ball more, if the lightning left sided forward is destroying the right back feed them the ball - its about exploiting our strengths and the oppositions weaknesses as the game demands - if they have a genuine lack of pace then most likely Carroll would be our first tactic as they sit deep, if they are pushing up then pace would seem the more obvious answer - if we could build that type of flexibility then it's not a cultural shift every game its using our tactical intelligence to maximum effect -

Under Rafa I always had the impression he had to pull the strings - we' d have to wait for half time to switch tactics - for all of Xabi's brilliance we could still become moribond and toothless in attack - what we should be aiming for is a team that can respond to whats happening on the field - that means we need a leader on the pitch that understands what is requirred and when and has the ability to make it happen.

[Filter]

I think it gets underestimated - it is a massive learning curve for the kids - the traveling, cultures, styles of football, pressure, tv coverage, quality of opposition - there's also the fact its U19 and gives an opportunity for the 3rd year scholars to be kept on maybe mature physically and have a 2nd chance to impress. Its also a extra half dozen quality games.

In terms of how it relates to the Barca discussion I think it provides the biggest contrasts of styles for the young lads to cope with and certainly exposed short comings in our tactical and technical excellence this season. If nothing else it sjows the coaches the extent of  the short comings.

My comment was more directed on England's youth development as a whole, the effect on that is minimal. I think alot of English talent is lost long before that age. But sure, it's a good experience. But it isn't really going to give you much of an advantage when every big team is going to be a part of it. If anything it'll be an interesting scouting platform, which I guess already it has shown to be with our signing of Joao Teixeira.

The thing is though, we don't have a real academy (yet) like some of the more prestigious academies. Our biggest talents right now in our youth are signed at a relatively late age, not developed by us. When you look at the youth of Ajax, Barcelona and Sporting for instance, most of those players have been playing together in the same style for many years. While our youth team is more a melting pot, without the same foundation.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

You are best off with a platform to start from. It creates stability and it helps you get the right types of players in. You know what to look for. Based on that platform, you make changes accordingly. I think we have tactical variations in every game and from game to game, but they are based on that platform. The platform is the "way".

If we talk style of play, it's very demanding to expect players to play tiki-taka one week and the next they should master the longball game. It's not realistic to expect players, or a team, to have that kind of flexibility.

Barca's weakness is IMO that they no longer have Ibrahimovic. They lack that alternative to their attack. It didn't show when they were able to press teams all game long. That said, it's a rather unique situation for them. They dominated the games vs Chelsea and Chelsea had maximum return on their chances. Barca lost, but are still a better side.

I disagree with Ibra, they missed a top class finisher outside of Messi. Villa was a huge loss for them. In the last few years Eto'o and Henry added that. Sanchez has added something, but not enough goals. Rooney would be the best player for them to get the replace Villa, as he can score and add to overall play.


As for us, we shouldn't look to be Barca, or even blueprint the club or football around them. We need to look at how they created a platform for success by having a set idea on how to run the club. The Graham Hunter book about Barca was interesting in this. He point out that Barca have had success when the club worked as a whole towards a certain footballing idea. Interestingly though, while Cryuff started playing for Barca in the 74 season, it wasn't until the players he had in his dream team retired into roles at the club did that idea take shape (Even though the youth system was revamped in 81, and added to by Cryuff himself.) Strangely enough after Cryuff left in 96 the club pulled away from his idea's buying stronger and more English type players. It was a bit lucky that the youth system was left alone for this period and not revamped. truth is the youth system kind of limped on ignored for a few years.

The style and football should be our own, but the club needs to be one footballing unit, following a set plan. The major footballing icon managers in the English leagues acted in a middle role between Dof and Coach. They set the system. Problem is they also are the sackable part of the formula in England, similar to the coaches in European clubs that run a dof system.

Another thing I got from that book is that the fan owned clubs are so tied to the president they vote in. If they make a mistake it can take years to fix. Bittier rivals often fight dirty, promising silly things for the short term.

I can't but help think the youth system is so important to our future, in a similar way it was for Barca. That's the only way these two clubs need to cross idea's. After that we can do as we please, like we have always done, often to great success.

Oh and any system needs to be flexible. 

[Carolina Red]

You are best off with a platform to start from. It creates stability and it helps you get the right types of players in. You know what to look for. Based on that platform, you make changes accordingly. I think we have tactical variations in every game and from game to game, but they are based on that platform. The platform is the "way".

If we talk style of play, it's very demanding to expect players to play tiki-taka one week and the next they should master the longball game. It's not realistic to expect players, or a team, to have that kind of flexibility.

Barca's weakness is IMO that they no longer have Ibrahimovic. They lack that alternative to their attack. It didn't show when they were able to press teams all game long. That said, it's a rather unique situation for them. They dominated the games vs Chelsea and Chelsea had maximum return on their chances. Barca lost, but are still a better side.

Agreed. Barca's dedication to their philosophy of play is admirable but has gone to an extreme. Not only do they lack alternatives like Ibra, Toure, or Eto'o but they also started playing Macherano and similar midfield types at center back and have become almost totally reliant on skill/possession.

Managers like Rafa and Mourinho can develop a style or identity to a team, but adjusts the tactics/personnel for particular opponents. Mourinho built Chelsea to win the Premier League, and tried to tweak it to win in the Champions League. One could argue that Rafa's Liverpool teams were the opposite. Nonetheless you have to built an identity that best suits your club, you will never out-Barca Barca or out-Italian the top Italian teams, etc.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

its tricky though isn't it because one of the benefits of the current barca game plan is that they just keep going - they wear the opposition down tire them out, create opportunities late in games because sides have basically played 90 minutes chasing the ball - the lack of a plan B is seen as a plus its about belief in the system

I dont think Chelsea could have complained if they'd lost both games 3 - 0 - its been a crazy season and its the one reason I have not dismissed Chelsea's chances against Bayern

but Chelsea's tactics and Inters before them,  those of virtually complete lack of ambition - allows those sides to retain their fitness to the late stages, and the repetitive nature of the possession and attacks allows a certain defensive focus - there's no real mixing up and so defences can just absorb and cover - at time its cries out for  a roll of the dice,  a high risk attack just to wrong foot the opposition - in Barca terms that appears to be treated as a release of the pressure rather than a shift in balance

If I'm reading most peoples comments rightly then we need to play with intelligence and that intelligence should allow a degree of flexibility that I dont really see at Barca - its not necessarily long ball or short ball  its more a question of when and where each is apppropriate - and that should not just be put the big man upfront for the last 10 minutes - if like against Chelsea Andy terrorises their defence then that needs to be exploited, if Suarez is on form and nut megging players for fun he needs the ball more, if the lightning left sided forward is destroying the right back feed them the ball - its about exploiting our strengths and the oppositions weaknesses as the game demands - if they have a genuine lack of pace then most likely Carroll would be our first tactic as they sit deep, if they are pushing up then pace would seem the more obvious answer - if we could build that type of flexibility then it's not a cultural shift every game its using our tactical intelligence to maximum effect -

Under Rafa I always had the impression he had to pull the strings - we' d have to wait for half time to switch tactics - for all of Xabi's brilliance we could still become moribond and toothless in attack - what we should be aiming for is a team that can respond to whats happening on the field - that means we need a leader on the pitch that understands what is requirred and when and has the ability to make it happen.

Interesting points.

I think Barca move things more then we realise, they when they have a full squad change things very well. When they lack certain players they can suffer. Personally I think the game against Chelsea swung on Pique going off injured, very often he is the extra man that makes the difference up front in tight games. Hardly a 'put the big man up front' idea, Pique was always one of the top scorers for the youth teams.

Villa, Pique, Pedro and Iniesta off form was the major shitstorm for Barca. Saying that they need an option or two more. A Suarez would help a lot.

Rafa and Sacchi played a more even game, in that they knew how to use a few systems well. Difference was Sacchi had some of the best players to grace a football pitch, as has Pep.

[Vulmea]

My comment was more directed on England's youth development as a whole, the effect on that is minimal. I think alot of English talent is lost long before that age. But sure, it's a good experience. But it isn't really going to give you much of an advantage when every big team is going to be a part of it. If anything it'll be an interesting scouting platform, which I guess already it has shown to be with our signing of Joao Teixeira.

The thing is though, we don't have a real academy (yet) like some of the more prestigious academies. Our biggest talents right now in our youth are signed at a relatively late age, not developed by us. When you look at the youth of Ajax, Barcelona and Sporting for instance, most of those players have been playing together in the same style for many years. While our youth team is more a melting pot, they don't have the same foundation.

mmm not sure  but you raise some intersting points

there may be a shortage of english coaches but there isn't a shortage at LFC - and again I think our scouts are being trained to look at different things these days or at least I hope they are. So although the pool is smaller than it could be its getting bigger.

As a city we've probably produced the best talent in the England side,  Gerrard and Rooney. The very best are still likely to rise to the top despite the systems in place. Of course given how we prize physicality some of the better technical and tactical players may have been lost or never found. The Barca academy in equivalent terms stretches beyond Birmingham so its no great surprise we have players from across the UK. I think we aim to sign one of two of the very best schoolboys every year not every lad who makes it starts out at an academy aged 9. At U19/U18 level we still have Lussey, Dunn, Morgan, Smith, Robinson all of whom signed as kids but it will take several years before whatever techniques and methods we've introduced in the last couple of years will have been fully integrated - those who first benefitted are still only 10 or 11 but thats not to say that what went before was entirely useless.

less than 6 years ago we had a side winning the FA youth cup who'd been together since the age of 9 - it was  2nd victory in three years - the hot house atmosphere clearly does bring benefits of its own but as none of those lads have gone on to seal a top flight career something clearly had to change but it can't have been all wrong.

In terms of the benefits of the next gen we are talking about the elite young players, those who have reached U19 status at LFC. Their individual development is the key - it does not really matter if others are developing too - its about maximising those we have and the next gen clealry helps with that.

in terms of the mix and match at the academy then if we are to use different styles, adapt within games all is not lost, if the key element is tactical intelligence I'd have thought that type of maturity isn't necessarily taught at the earlier ages in any event

we are where we are,  part of the excitement is to see what we can conjure up from what we already have - its not like the lads have been learning a different sport and whatever we may be teaching them should still have a core of the scouse/english template.

[Rormac]

Great read all.  I think it's important to remember that important elements of this amazing Barca side have played football together since they were kids.  Nurture develop and be patient. 

[ReddyMac]

In europe they tend to play with a different interpretation of the rules, they tend to play at a slower pace and they tend to have better technical players - its possible we could play teh same way but if you stick with one style its becomes easier to organise against.

Do you want to develop a single style that you use against the top 6 clubs,in europe and the park the bus teams - is it appropriate? Might be, might not.

One of the accusations against Barca and Arsenal is that they only know one way of playing and when it does not work they do not have a plan B. Granted plan A has worked for Barca 99% of the time but as pointed out above by far cleverer people than me I think they've actually evolved to a point when they are in danger of becoming too specialised - they had greater variety in 2009 than they do now.

And I agree, but cant Liverpool style of play have Plan A and Plan B with the help of a slight tactical change/substitution. What i'm trying to get at is, you don't necessarily need 2 completely opposite styles ,i.e., long ball vs short passing game of play to compensate against different types of opposition.

I was just reading Rafa's interview the other day and this is what I came accross:

Q)How did you manage to win the Champions League with Liverpool in your first season – what were the key ingredients? And we’ve heard the players’ version, but just what was said at half-time in Istanbul? Did you honestly believe you could come back?

Rafa) We had a very good team spirit, especially in the Champions League where we felt we could beat anyone, because we were able to adapt tactically and play like two different teams.

This makes sense as some of the greatest teams can completely change the way they play during a period of one game. That can be our Liverpool way.

[ReddyMac]

But for this we need intelligent players which we lack at the moment.

Also, this raises the next issue. What if we make a huge signing and he fails to adapt to a system or this this case the Liverpool way? Now,what if we make several signings who fail to adapt to the Liverpool way?

The players cannot play the way the manager aspires to play, so the manager changes the system to 1) suit the players 2)enforce the club's playing style onto the players.

Liverpool's current campaign is somewhere in between.

[Rormac]

And this is where Barca failed in the Champions League.  I see huge promise in Andy and Luis because they are dangerous in such different ways. 

[Rormac]

But for this we need intelligent players which we lack at the moment.

Also, this raises the next issue. What if we make a huge signing and he fails to adapt to a system or this this case the Liverpool way? Now,what if we make several signings who fail to adapt to the Liverpool way?

The players cannot play the way the manager aspires to play, so the manager changes the system to 1) suit the players 2)enforce the club's playing style onto the players.

Liverpool's current campaign is somewhere in between.

They need time

[rola]

What a great thread.  Thanks all. Will try to make a sensible contribution.

Like to pick up on the approach needed for the PL.  The style of play (as Vulmea summarised in op) being developed I would refer to as a "power" game.  The definition of power in terms of physics is instructive: Power is the time rate at which work is done or energy is transferred. In calculus terms, power is the derivative of work with respect to time.

The physicality and pace of the PL are its defining features - compared to, say, the touch and tactics of La Liga.  Physicality + pace = power football.  That style mitigates against the touch/tactics approach. I'd hazard a guess (though it's not an educated one), that Barcelona would struggle to win the PL, because of the demands of the league are so different to those in La Liga. They have adapted their style to suit their league, and the upper echelons of European football. The environment in the PL is different, so a different style has evolved.

That style can best be understood by looking at he likes of Chelsea & Man City and how they achieved (i.e bought) success.  Both teams underpinned by a core of physical players - Kompany, Toure, Richards, Barry, De Jong - out of the current city crop.  The power approach holds true even for those who aren't in any way as physical - the likes of Silva, Mata for example - they are adapted to the PL environment because they can play with explosive burst of speed (energy) and their (almost continuous) movement.  Optimising the balance between that physicality & explosive speed/movement produces powerful teams suited to the PL. 

This is where Andy Carroll fits in I think.  He's a power forward.  Not meant to be just an immobile big lump target man - but a physical presence - aggressive, threatening, challenging - the sort of player we glimpsed for the last 30 min of the cup final.  Suarez is a perfect fit in the speed.movement category - he's an explosive presence in more ways than one.  Perfect for the PL and perfect for us. 

Lucas is a another good example - especially when you consider how he has bulked and strengthened up over the past couple of years. The likes of Adam, Spearing and Downing appear to lack in these areas - they don't add to the power coefficient of the team.  A player like Gerrard even now, and more so at his physical peak, is the perfect amalgam of the modern PL power player.

This style doesn't exclude finesse or touch or sublime skill - it just makes it that much harder to achieve and deliver consistently. 

I've maybe strived a bit too hard for a theory (without really thinking it through - well, just made it up) there - but I think there's something in it maybe. 

[Fat Scouser]

I've caught up with a lot of this thread now, and I'll read the rest tomorrow. But there's something I want to say, before calling it a day, and I don't really want to say it. But, going with the players we have at the moment, I honestly think our best way to any sort of success is through up and at em, get stuck in, long ball, kick and rush, or whatever football you call it. Nobody wants to hear that, but, unless other players are brought in, I reckon it's probably our best hope of stringing some results together next season.

I'm not thinking Stoke/Wimbledon exactly with Carroll being used as a battering ram, but if we carry that slow ponderous football into next season, it'll probably be worse than this one. When we're shifting the ball quickly, moving into space and being open for the ball, we don't look too bad. In fact, I think we played some really good football at times this season. But teams have sussed us. I've moaned about it for months, we are so predictable we could write the script to most games before a ball is kicked... 20 minutes or so of good football - teams hold us out - frustration sets in on and off the pitch - the whole stadium starts getting anxious - the defence falls deeper - a huge hole opens up between midfield and attack - the ball is aimlessly lumped forward hoping something will develop. Even Hodge Podge knew how to turn us over.

I know I must seem to be cancelling out me own argument, but I don't mean we should play lump it long Wimbledonball. I'm thinking more of Rafa's high tempo pressing game. I know I shouldn't bring the man up in here. It's not some veiled attack on Kenny or a mournful whinge for Rafa. I'm just trying to explain meself as simply as possible, and the type of football I mean is the sort of quick attacking direct football that walloped Man U in their own backyard. I know Carroll hasn't got the speed or instant accelaration that Torres had at that time, but he's not the slow carthorse we've seen all season. In fact, I think he's deceptively quick. He's also showing decent touch at the moment. If he can carry that into next season, I think we could get a lot of joy out of some direct pacey football.

Of course it all comes down to who leaves, who Kenny brings in and how much pocket money he's given. But just talking about who and what we've got at this moment, I think that high-tempo/pressing game, defending high and getting the ball forward as fast and as often as possible, is our best hope of not going through all this over and over again next season.

[Vulmea]

And I agree, but cant Liverpool style of play have Plan A and Plan B with the help of a slight tactical change/substitution. What i'm trying to get at is, you don't necessarily need 2 completely opposite styles ,i.e., long ball vs short passing game of play to compensate against different types of opposition.

Agree completely but how do we make it happen?

What is the base we build from?

What do we coach the kids?

How do we set the first team up?

How do we ask them to play so that they can switch from A to B?

What is the Liverpool style of play that allows such tactical fluidity? What specifically are Plan A and B?

Who pulls the strings, who decides when we switch?

Is what we mean by a Liverpool player someone with that adaptability built into their DNA or can a Liverpool player be trained to be adaptable ? Or most lilkely is it a mix of both? Do they need to adapt A to B or A, B, C or if they are sensational at A do we just leave it at that and buy somebody else for plan B?

Other than adaptability what else is required - what styles of play are we looking for those players to adapt into?

I dont think anything is necessaily fixed - if Barca found a 6 foot 4 monster of a goal machine brought up on the ramblas would they turn him into a centre half to suit their play or adapt their style to accomodate him? I'd hope the latter.

4231 is the formation of the day but is it little more than numbers on a page? Can we put some bones on it?

[Rormac]

Agree completely but how do we make it happen?

What is the base we build from?

What do we coach the kids?

How do we set the first team up?

How do we ask them to play so that they can switch from A to B?

What is the Liverpool style of play that allows such tactical fluidity? What specifically are Plan A and B?

Who pulls the strings, who decides when we switch?

Is what we mean by a Liverpool player someone with that adaptability built into their DNA or can a Liverpool player be trained to be adaptable ? Or most lilkely is it a mix of both? Do they need to adapt A to B or A, B, C or if they are sensational at A do we just leave it at that and buy somebody else for plan B?

Other than adaptability what else is required - what styles of play are we looking for those players to adapt into?

I dont think anything is necessaily fixed - if Barca found a 6 foot 4 monster of a goal machine brought up on the ramblas would they turn him into a centre half to suit their play or adapt their style to accomodate him? I'd hope the latter.

4231 is the formation of the day but is it little more than numbers on a page? Can we put some bones on it?

score more goals

[helmboy_nige]

I think one of the great things about our setup is that we can build a "way" of playing that suits both direct and passing play.  With Carroll acting as the 'lay-off' man for Gerrard and Suarez.  Then with the likes of Henderson, Lucas, Suarez (and some new kids) forming a pass and move game.

The problems we've had imo have been integrating two styles into the same team.  But the signs are that this is improving.  We need to improve our movement, which has, at times, been shocking.

Again, new players are needed in some areas, but I feel a core is in place.

As others have said I don't feel we should be copying the likes of Barca, but rather adapting and learning from various styles of play.  Again, we should be trying to integrate these styles from the kiddies up.

[Filter]

there may be a shortage of english coaches but there isn't a shortage at LFC - and again I think our scouts are being trained to look at different things these days or at least I hope they are. So although the pool is smaller than it could be its getting bigger.

Exactly, there isn't a shortage of qualified coaches at LFC, there isn't a shortage of qualified coaches at any professional club probably. That's where all the qualified coaches are concentrated, there's a complete lack there of at grassroots level. Most qualified coaches in countries like Spain, Holland and Germany are not at professional clubs, they're at amateur clubs. Which means that talented players get good guidance early on, so their foundation is better. Vastly improves the pool and overall development of youth. While in England your best chance to fullfill potential is to get picked up by a pro club at a very early age like Sterling or Wilshire.

less than 6 years ago we had a side winning the FA youth cup who'd been together since the age of 9 - it was  2nd victory in three years - the hot house atmosphere clearly does bring benefits of its own but as none of those lads have gone on to seal a top flight career something clearly had to change but it can't have been all wrong.

Yeah, but winning in itself doesn't say anything. Winning should be secondary to player development. That's the main mistake in US youth development for instance, they grow up in school and college teams that are focussed on winning and team building, instead of individual player development. Good for short term results, bad for long term player development.

In terms of the benefits of the next gen we are talking about the elite young players, those who have reached U19 status at LFC. Their individual development is the key - it does not really matter if others are developing too - its about maximising those we have and the next gen clealry helps with that.

That's true, but I thought this thread was more about finding our own way to set ourselfs apart, to succeed with our own philosophy. In that aspect the nextgen isn't going to help much, it's just a nice addition.

in terms of the mix and match at the academy then if we are to use different styles, adapt within games all is not lost, if the key element is tactical intelligence I'd have thought that type of maturity isn't necessarily taught at the earlier ages in any event

I think it is, tactics but technical skill too. I'm a youth coach at an amateur club with over 1000 players in the Netherlands. 4-3-3 total football is engrained in our football culture and taught very early on. And for amateur clubs here it's mandatory to have UEFA qualified coaches, so you know there's coaches who know how to teach the right things.

People might not think that Barcelona's style of play is the best way to play as a first team, but it's without a doubt the best way to develop creative players. Developing youth players is all about maximising their touches, and there's no better way to do that than to emulate a possession passing style like they are.

[Vulmea]

 The definition of power in terms of physics is instructive: Power is the time rate at which work is done or energy is transferred. In calculus terms, power is the derivative of work with respect to time.

when you say the definition may help.............

The physicality and pace of the PL are its defining features -

This style doesn't exclude finesse or touch or sublime skill - it just makes it that much harder to achieve and deliver consistently. 

I think that high-tempo/pressing game, defending high and getting the ball forward as fast and as often as possible, is our best hope of not going through all this over and over again next season.

As I said at the start I'm not really a football purist , I can admire Barca , one particular one two against Chelsea was faster than the human eye could follow - absolutely brilliant but I do think there's more ways than one to play and love the beautiful game and as much as a dinsosaur as it makes me,  a good crunching tackle can get me off me seat as much as a curvaseous pass or flowing move

and I definately think there is a role for a more direct, in your face style in the prem rather than other leagues - whether thats back to Lachesis's counter attacking or simple adopting plan B I'm not sure, well actually I am,  its both and some more.

we have played well this season, we've played very well under rafa but time and again when the pace of our game drops we've struggled - in particular we struggle big time when we lose focus - when the object of the game becomes to keep the ball and not score I sometimes get the feeling its like a training exercise without a purpose - it becomes pointless and the players lose focus our tempo drops and bang mistakes follow  - now maybe thats back to a basic lack of football intelligence but it does also seem to lack the basic passion of the basic english game -  for me we should always be looking to score when in possession - whether its after a 35 pass move or three. Barca do look like they are not just trying to keep the ball for possession sake but use it, manouver it and create space. Too often we just look like the intent is to get it back to the keeper and let him launch it.

Thats not to say there will not be times when we'll want to kill the game, when we'll contain or drop off as the game dictates but  for me I dont think there is anything wrong with being more direct at times.

[Vulmea]

Good post

I can't and wouldn't want to argue with a lot of what you say there and its definately helped me understand something

For some time now I've thought the main issue for english football has been the lack of proper transition between 18 and 21 - the massive jump between reserve football at a top club and actually performing at a high level in the prem

now clearly this is an issue - reserve football is poor, there is nothing other than the loan system to fill the void but from what you are saying - you believe the problem is even more deeply ingrained you are saying even if we had that transition sorted the players simply would not be there to take advantage of it.

The reason I've shyed away from that conclusion before is because we've done reasonably well in tournaments at club and national level at younger age groups - maybe however those results are down to different factors, a heavier weight on physicality or competitiveness, the fact tactical maturity is a subconscious thing and does not kick in until late or a number of other factors - I'll be giving that more thought in future,

cheers

[Fat Scouser]

My point's more simple mate. I'm looking at what we've got and thinking what's the best way for us to get results. I can't see much more to us than getting the ball towards the oppos goal as quickly as possible. I know we've played some nice football this season, but more often than not we've played some decent football for 20 minutes or so, got frustrated, went to cock, went behind, played some barnstorming stuff in the last 10 minutes or so. It was becoming the only real pattern of play I could identify, and I can't see the team/squad being that much different next season.

The easiest way out of that to me, is to play a similair style to the 08/09 season. That would depend on Lucas being fit and getting Gerrard to play just behind Carroll with Suarez coming in from wider positions. As I said, I'm just talking about getting results from the players we've got available. I could be entirely wrong, but the one outstanding success we had by playing the type of football we've seen all season was when we beat Man City at their gaff in the semi of the league cup. And to be brutally honest, that was one of the most embarrassing games I've seen Liverpool play in me life. I know the only thing that will get remembered is the trophy, but that was one shithouse game of togger and I never ever want to see Liverpool playing like that again. I'd much rather get beat while giving it a lash.

[Vulmea]

My point's more simple mate. I'm looking at what we've got and thinking what's the best way for us to get results. I can't see much more to us than getting the ball towards the oppos goal as quickly as possible. I know we've played some nice football this season, but more often than not we've played some decent football for 20 minutes or so, got frustrated, went to cock, went behind, played some barnstorming stuff in the last 10 minutes or so. It was becoming the only real pattern of play I could identify, and I can't see the team/squad being that much different next season.

Think I'd rather have the 20 minutes last for 90 - I dont think we are that far away from being able to make it happen - - we've given up generally this season because we haven't believed we can score - no belief, it can't be allowed to continue next year  - shove Lucas and Henderson to control the centre and protect the back four from the brain farts we keep having  - we need a player that can replace and/or play alongside Lucas - but it alllows the fullbacks to bomb on and help the front four Gerrard, Suarez, Carroll and a.n.other - preferably Bellamy only 5 years younger,  run riot up front - I can't remember a season like this for not scoring an wont believe it'll happen again next year

[Stussy]

I'm not sure looking at what Barca have achieved is wrong, football has always advanced through emulating success. Barca took the Ajax model. Arrigo Saachi learnt from our style and success when he built up his AC Milan teams.

[Vulmea]

I'm not sure looking at what Barca have achieved is wrong, football has always advanced through emulating success. Barca took the Ajax model. Arrigo Saachi learnt from our style and success when he built up his AC Milan teams.

I agree its useful to look at what works - no problems with that - the problem comes if you simply try to replicate it

[Fat Scouser]

I agree mate, we're not far off being a side that can score more goals than most teams we'll come up against and being able to get results. But I think we're light years away from having a side that can mix up three or four different tactical approaches. Get our best 11 on the pitch and keep it simple, we can give anyone a game. Lose a player or two and expect us to be able to shake things up, we're bollocksed. And I can't really think beyond that, otherwise we have to start summising who's leaving and what sort of players we're getting in. Names like the mystical mythical AA will get mentioned and ructions will start. So, just going on what we've got, I think coaching them's probably a case of, "Get stuck in lad's, twat these bastards!"

[MartinSkrtelsBasement]

Then with the likes of Henderson, Lucas, Suarez (and some new kids) forming a pass and move game.

What does this mean though? Everyone of us was encouraged to pass and move even as 9 year olds playing Sunday league. Its not a definitive playing style or philosophy, its a very basic footballing necessity that can be traced through most good sides.

Since Kenny has been reinstated, i've seen a lot of posts exuding some kind of romantic insignia about 'the return of good old pass and move'. Indeed, it wasn't much evident in Hodgson's reign, but Rafa's Liverpool passed and moved. Barca pass and move, yet they're labelled something else (tika-taka).

One thing Benitez definitely left with me, is that football is all about timing. Correct decision making and deciding when to turn the pace on, whether that means passing and moving, or pressing hard and high. This is something all the top sides have in common. How you brand that tactical nous, can take a side in different directions ie. Arsene's youthful approach, Barca's tika-taka, Ferguson's ruthlessness ect. I will always maintain that for all its variables, football is a relatively simple game. However, it isn't ever won before kick-off, it's won in the ninety minutes, and how you contextualize and react to each passage of play will eventually prevail.

[Fat Scouser]

Really looking forward to this game tomorrow. I'm hoping Swansea play really well. I haven't seen much of them this season, but they seem to play the game in the right way, pass and move, attacking football. Of course, our ridiculous sensationalist media, make out they out Barca Barca and Rodgers is the new Guardiola. But it will be interesting to see how we play them. So, I'm hoping the teams don't just go through the motions and play the season out. I want to see us pick up where we left off against Chelsea, and I'd like to see us (the new us from Tuesday night) really tested. I hope Kenny's in the same mind, and I hope the players don't think they're already on their holidays. There again, I'd rather that than them play themselves into the Euro squad. But me point is, I'm hoping both teams put on a game that  gives us some sort of indication to where we're headed next season.

[Stussy]

I agree its useful to look at what works - no problems with that - the problem comes if you simply try to replicate it

Definitely, and that's what the great 'emulators' did, Sacchi did it when he advanced Milan with the Dutch players, and Barca have used Ajax as a reference and stepping off point.

So many things involved in this - ideals are a good thing, acquisition of the players to enact it another. Also subject to improvisation - if (hypothetically speaking) we suddenly produce a golden generation from our youth team with particular attributes, whatever our ideal culture and style, it can be adjusted to fit our personnel.

I think its best to have broad ideals and within that fashion sides which will always be subject to the attributes of your players - and sometimes restrictions can help focus and mould along those lines.

Our identity based on style - broadly speaking a focus on quick pass-and-move attacking orientated pressuring - should ge malleable enough to take in nuance and respond to circumstance - and also I think most importantly, achieve a cohesion through the club from youth, reserve to first team.

Achieving that cohesion takes something visionary, because it'll have to be bred into the bones of the structure of the club over years, with a unity of purpose when it comes to player, coach and manager and recruitment of all those positions, until that becomes reflexive and can't be disrupted.

Who is the visionary and where are the authority figures to take the time to implement it? That is what is the key question for me.

[L666KOP]

Barcalona play boring football. I hate watching them, and if that makes me a neanderthal then so be it.
Predictable passing football that bores me to death. Give me a fast counter attacking style any day of the week.
But everyone falls into the trap of trying to replicate them, they are the best at what they do, just like Arsenal are in the premiership, and if we all fall into the trap of trying to match them up, they'll win all the time.
Ferguson has been on a crusade for the last five years trying to do just that, and has failed miserably. Wenger complains when teams set up to play long ball and rough his team up, why?, because he knows they can't do both. If every team in premiership went toe to toe with Arsenal and adopted their passing game Arsenal would walk the league every year, but teams don't do that, they adopt their own individual style.
Barcalona have proved that they are a 'one trick pony' side this year, Villa has proved to be a bigger loss than even they could imagine, they're toothless without him, and everyone was up in arms when Chelsea went and parked the bus, but guess what, they knocked them out, who'd have thought that the most basic of tactics, getting ten men behind the ball and soak up the pressure till Barca 'passed themselves out' would work? But it did.
Roy posted earlier regarding the style he thinks we should 'adopt', the one we used more often that not when Rafa was about, and I agree, it's effective against most teams, and a lot easier on the eye than the Barcalona model.

[The Grinch]

Barcalona play boring football. I hate watching them, and if that makes me a neanderthal then so be it.
Predictable passing football that bores me to death. Give me a fast counter attacking style any day of the week.
But everyone falls into the trap of trying to replicate them, they are the best at what they do, just like Arsenal are in the premiership, and if we all fall into the trap of trying to match them up, they'll win all the time.
Ferguson has been on a crusade for the last five years trying to do just that, and has failed miserably. Wenger complains when teams set up to play long ball and rough his team up, why?, because he knows they can't do both. If every team in premiership went toe to toe with Arsenal and adopted their passing game Arsenal would walk the league every year, but teams don't do that, they adopt their own individual style.
Barcalona have proved that they are a 'one trick pony' side this year, Villa has proved to be a bigger loss than even they could imagine, they're toothless without him, and everyone was up in arms when Chelsea went and parked the bus, but guess what, they knocked them out, who'd have thought that the most basic of tactics, getting ten men behind the ball and soak up the pressure till Barca 'passed themselves out' would work? But it did.
Roy posted earlier regarding the style he thinks we should 'adopt', the one we used more often that not when Rafa was about, and I agree, it's effective against most teams, and a lot easier on the eye than the Barcalona model.

Barca have won the World Club Championship are in the Final of the Copa Del Ray, have finished as Runners up in La Liga with 90+ points and were by far the better side over two legs in the Semi Final of the Champions League. I wish we had seasons as bad as that.

[L666KOP]

Barca have won the World Club Championship are in the Final of the Copa Del Ray, have finished as Runners up in La Liga with 90+ points and were by far the better side over two legs in the Semi Final of the Champions League. I wish we had seasons as bad as that.

Because they are the best at what they do Al, they can be stopped, and I'll Guarantee that should Villa have been available all season they'd have added a La Liga and probably a Champions League to that list, the point I'm trying to make is that by losing just one small cog their 'machine' is nowhere near as effective as we might like to think it is, and the most basic tactic in the world can stop them.
The football is not entertaining to watch, I can admire that they are the best at what they do, but I'd much rather watch a team that plays fast flowing incisive counter attacking football.

[Fat Scouser]

if that makes me a neanderthal then so be it.

Bit harsh on the neanderthals that.

[Vulmea]

What does this mean though? Everyone of us was encouraged to pass and move even as 9 year olds playing Sunday league. Its not a definitive playing style or philosophy, its a very basic footballing necessity that can be traced through most good sides.

Not sure thats strictly true -still plenty of kids taught to play the Dave Basset school of football - but I think the giste is right there are many different ways of playing

Get our best 11 on the pitch and keep it simple, we can give anyone a game. Lose a player or two and expect us to be able to shake things up, we're bollocksed.

Even though I keep saying it I still keep forgetting it and you are dead right - we have a decent 13/14 players but we dont have cover for every position, the drop off to some of our squad players or youngsters is too big - I'm hoping we fix that this summer though.

I think its best to have broad ideals and within that fashion sides which will always be subject to the attributes of your players - and sometimes restrictions can help focus and mould along those lines.

Our identity based on style - broadly speaking a focus on quick pass-and-move attacking orientated pressuring - should ge malleable enough to take in nuance and respond to circumstance - and also I think most importantly, achieve a cohesion through the club from youth, reserve to first team.

Achieving that cohesion takes something visionary, because it'll have to be bred into the bones of the structure of the club over years, with a unity of purpose when it comes to player, coach and manager and recruitment of all those positions, until that becomes reflexive and can't be disrupted.

Who is the visionary and where are the authority figures to take the time to implement it? That is what is the key question for me.

Love this bit and I've been struggling to articulate it anywhere near as well

and great questions at the end wish I could be sure of the answers.

....if that makes me a neanderthal then so be it.

Roy posted earlier regarding the style he thinks we should 'adopt', the one we used more often that not when Rafa was about, and I agree, it's effective against most teams, and a lot easier on the eye than the Barcalona model.

Bit harsh on the neanderthals that.

Neanderthals were bigger, stronger, tougher and had bigger brain pans than us dead beats their only real failing was they didn't mix very well - they kept in small social groups which meant they didn't trade either goods or information - so any hardships hit them hard - so eventually they got overun by us lot.

the latest scientific evidence though suggests that rather than completely die out one in 20 of us have some Neanderthral DNA....

 

[Fat Scouser]

I was just taking the piss out of me mate, 666. But you're right, us human beings are nasty bastards. We killed off every human type species bar ourselves. Mind you, that Carlos Tevez fella?