Author Topic: Not being Barca  (Read 14964 times)

Offline kcbworth

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,152
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2012, 01:28:20 PM »
Had a quick trawl but can't find it - I'll see if there'I did come across these though which were interesting of themselves:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=277719.0

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/8611991.stm

Sensational!

Offline kasperoff

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,157
  • JFT 96
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2012, 01:31:17 PM »
Still don't get how some can take the gloss off Guardiola's achievements, even with the stars at his disposal, he made Barca unplayable. Never has there been a team that no one fancies a win against, even if they did eventually win it.

The lessons from the Barca Way, if there is one, was not wasting possession, which is a major flaw in the English game. We send aimless, pointless ball from the flanks. We do not have to play like them, but we can learn from them in the current era.

For me, Rafa's team at its peak is what LFC playing style should be.
A tactically brilliant manager, the team playing with passion, drive and determination, yet has the intelligence and skills to adjust the game.

Absolutely. When we finished 2nd under Rafa, we were playing what I believe is how Liverpool should be playing. The first half of that season, right up to the shock Spurs defeat, we were as good as I've seen us.

The balance was fantastic. We knew when to twist and when to stick. Had a great mixture of passing and knew how to keep possession. Our defence was rock solid and the goals were flying in. I was hard to put your finger on exac;y what style of play it was. The formation was usually pretty stable, but the 'tempo' and general style seemed to be pretty fluid.

I still feel anger at the hand fate dealt us. Had the club been on a more stable footing, I'm convinced Rafa would have lead us to the title by now.

One thing I will say is that, Tika-taka or not, we must only be looking at players who are very comfortable and proficient at making and taking short and middle distance passes. The players we sign should also be players that actively offer for the ball and stay out of the shadows. Any successful style of play relies on these fundamentals in my opinion. This is why I rate Henderson. He's been mediocre in his first year, but I love the fact that he has the basics nailed. I can see him doing very well for us in the future. It was similar with Lucas.
I think the same, can't stand him, but if you could have a £1million pound cheque or steve bruces head hollowed out and filled with pound coins which would you have?

Offline gerrardlfc

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2012, 01:31:45 PM »
Why do teams have to have a "way"? Why can't you adapt your football tactics/philosphy per game? I understand the Liverpool way off the pitch and how we express and represent ourselves but i've never been overkeen of having a "way" on the pitch, Barca came unstuck this year in both the league and the Champions League using the "Barca way" they were very one dimensional vs. Chelsea and didn't adapt their tactics during the game.

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,200
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2012, 01:40:10 PM »
Was it the best people to defend the shirt interview.

Thinks he's quoted on that in the bbc one above - I've got this vague recollection of another one where he spoke more about scouse characteristics being important
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline lachesis

  • RAWK Scribe
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,141
  • МАРКСИСТ
    • Statactics
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2012, 01:41:04 PM »
From the average position is Carroll being used as a Striker in a 4-4-2 or the kind of position Morientes or Kuyt originally played in Rafa's 4-2-3-1

I think it's debatable based on the average position, I have used the data a couple of times before and used a match I'd been to and the recording to gauge how it was measured and I honestly couldn't see how it was calculated. I used a game with Downing for example and he ended up being just on the edge of the box left hand side, when he was wide left for most of the game and swapped to the right hand side later in the game. In the first pic, Carroll is in midfield for example, which looks more like 4-5-1?

But to discuss them anyway Carroll would be where you expect him to be for receiving knock downs/flick ons. However, Suarez as a strike partner isn't really a gambler of flick ons like say Keegan. Suarez prefers to pick the ball up deeper and dribble into the area which is where the disconnect has largely been.

The point you make is pertinent though but I don't know the underlying youth structure or academy on a day to day basis that you do. You would expect to have a river of continuity flowing through the club but we don't appear to have this. I don't think the players we have bought naturally fit into a 'spread-betting' attacking quartet either.


Some interesting things from that Segura piece:

Quote
We analyze four factors:

- Technical: We appreciate the passing game (passing game)
- Tactical: Your ability to play without the ball
- Psychological: Your willingness to be professional
- Physical: We value speed, strength and size (English football)

Segura prefers a 4-3-3, but was enticed to use a 4-2-3-1 because Rafa as the club manager made the decision. This then begs the question, does the academy pursue this in the absence of its advocate? If so, why? Has Dalglish sat down with Segura and fashioned out another ideal. From the interview in the Autumn Segura talks about:


Quote
..the concept that I'd like to try and bring to Liverpool - is this. Barcelona's La Masia represents the club's policy. It's a symbol of the club's philosophy.

Quote
When your policies keep changing when one day you say black, the next day white, then there will always be a problem in trying to establish a clearly defined concept of player development."


To me that indicates the strategy changed when Rafa left.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 01:55:17 PM by lachesis »
Join the fight - fans v journos: http://pickourteam.com || Twitter feed

Online Kochevnik

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2012, 01:53:58 PM »
Love the irony of not wanting to copy Barca but praising Segura and Borrell to high heaven. I am with Royhendo and Wooltonian for me Liverpool since Shanks arrived has always been about taking the best aspects of the teams we came up against, tweaking it and adding our own best characteristics so we end up leap frogging the opposition.

I agree with most of your post, but I disagree with this.  It is precisely Segura and Borrell's flexibility to adapt to the reality of English football that impresses me most about them.  They come from a tradition of technique and skill on the ball, and are trying to marry it to the physicality of the game here.  It is telling that both have said they would have preferred to install a Barca-esque 4-3-3 as the system, but under Rafa were persuaded to make it a 4-2-3-1, which is more flexible and also seemingly more suited to us.

I also love that they are so concerned that our players get on the ball in training, as much as possible.  I have always thought that it's very difficult to teach a player to run faster or grow 3 inches.  ;) What raw material you're born with, you're born with.  Thus, training, especially at youth level, should be concentrated on those things that we can improve: vision, game intelligence, technique.  As players get older and we see which ones have the raw material (the pace and power) to progress to the first team, hopefully we can allow them to learn in the same system as the first team, and thus ensure that when they're ready the adjustment period is as brief as possible.

I said it above, but I'll say it again: the failure to either adopt Rafa's 4-2-3-1 or install a new, consistent formation and style of play has been Kenny's biggest mistake this time around.  Lachesis' charts of various formations we've tried this year is quite damning, in my opinion, and it's preventing us from getting the best out of our players.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 02:01:28 PM by Kochevnik »
Managers who have won fewer than three European Cups: Ferguson, Mourinho, Guardiola, Saachi, Hiddink, Hitzfeld, Clough, Happel, Trapattoni, Cruyff, Michels, Lobanovsky, Capello, and many more.
Managers who have won three or more European Cups: Bob Paisley

Offline Nessy76

  • Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,826
    • Yet Another Football Blog
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2012, 02:22:28 PM »
For me, it's not a question of "being Barca" - we couldn't if we tried. Without Messi, Barca wouldn't be Barca. Without Xavi and Iniesta, Barca wouldn't be Barca. They might play a similar style, but there would be important differences.

There's some great stuff here about tactics, but some of the posts about how the academy plays really got me thinking that personnel is a massive factor in how you approach the game.

The sort of intelligent, skillful players, who can move the ball around in neat triangles, spot the right pass and skip past the opposition, are very rarely also blessed with the kind of determination of the willing-to-break-legs-to-win-a-ball, constantly pressing style seen in most Premiership midfielders. Remember Alonso, one of the most skillful passers ever to grace the club, felt that tackling was not a skill, but an attempt to correct a mistake. That's a fundamentally different approach to 90% of players in this country. It's worth noting that Rafa paired him up with very differently-minded partners in Sissoko and Mascherano.

For me, the club should be looking at possession and movement to control games where possible, but also pace and ball-winning, to spring counter-attacks. A lot of the sides we play tend to sit back and "park the bus" and they do it very well. Adaptability is the key. One player moving forwards always to be covered by another. Draw teams out and get the ball back when it is most useful, not just as quick as you can. There can be a great advantage to letting the opposition get forward in numbers when you are confident you can stop them from scoring. If they've left themselves open at the back, and teams who defend in numbers usually will do when they get a scent of goal, then the interception needs to be made with precision and speed, and the charge forward has to happen before they even know they've lost the ball.

That's why intelligent players like Alonso or Lucas are so important, and it's something that isn't always obvious when watching the game. The supporters will demand that players run hell-for-leather after the ball and "get involved", that everyone pushes forwards to "attack attack attack" of course they do, they want a goal and you score goals by attacking. But goals can come without massive pressure and build-up, too.

Alan Hansen has often suggested that all goals are essentially down to defensive errors. So how do you increase the chances of an error for your opponent? Either you put him under pressure with sustained attacks, which puts him on guard but gives you more opportunities for him to make the mistake, or you draw him out, lull him into a mis-reading of the game or a moment of over-confidence. Both methods work, and which is more effective will depend on who you are playing. Doing both at once is very difficult indeed.

The club seems set on developing more first team players through the Academy. It's a noble goal, and the work is being done, although my suspicion is that we'll still be signing a lot of players from outside, too. The vital thing isn't that the lads play the same formation as the first team, tactics in football evolve all the time, teaching a fifteen year old a rigid system of play that will be out of date before he makes his debut isn't particularly useful. What is important is that they learn the underlying philosophies of the game, and of the club. That they learn the skills and develop the vision that will allow them to flourish as successful footballers, regardless of the formation they are asked to play.

Offline The Grinch

  • Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,914
  • JFT 96
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2012, 02:25:24 PM »
I agree with most of your post, but I disagree with this.  It is precisely Segura and Borrell's flexibility to adapt to the reality of English football that impresses me most about them.  They come from a tradition of technique and skill on the ball, and are trying to marry it to the physicality of the game here.  It is telling that both have said they would have preferred to install a Barca-esque 4-3-3 as the system, but under Rafa were persuaded to make it a 4-2-3-1, which is more flexible and also seemingly more suited to us.

I also love that they are so concerned that our players get on the ball in training, as much as possible.  I have always thought that it's very difficult to teach a player to run faster or grow 3 inches.  ;) What raw material you're born with, you're born with.  Thus, training, especially at youth level, should be concentrated on those things that we can improve: vision, game intelligence, technique.  As players get older and we see which ones have the raw material (the pace and power) to progress to the first team, hopefully we can allow them to learn in the same system as the first team, and thus ensure that when they're ready the adjustment period is as brief as possible.

I said it above, but I'll say it again: the failure to either adopt Rafa's 4-2-3-1 or install a new, consistent formation and style of play has been Kenny's biggest mistake this time around.  Lachesis' charts of various formations we've tried this year is quite damning, in my opinion, and it's preventing us from getting the best out of our players.

I think the problem of not having a set formation has come about because of the players Purslow and Hodgson recruited. We ended up with half a team suited to playing 4-2-3-1 and half a team suited to playing Hodgson's outdated style. That was then compounded by having a stat freak as a DoF and no clear recruitment policy. We might be in a far better position now if Kenny had been appointed as Rafa's replacement instead of having the damage caused by Purslow and Hodgson's tenure.

We didn't have any players ready to step up and we had to recruit too many players too quickly as a temporary measure and we ended up like England at a tournament with a group of strangers and no system of play. Hopefully if we can get a production line of young players coming through that have come through our system then the system of play will take care of itself. That should be the aim, the strategy and the vision. For me what will define our future is how we manage the transition from a Club that has for the last decade or more bought our way out of trouble into a Club that grows our own and has it's own style from the U9's to the first team.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline lachesis

  • RAWK Scribe
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,141
  • МАРКСИСТ
    • Statactics
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2012, 02:27:47 PM »
I think the problem of not having a set formation has come about because of the players Purslow and Hodgson recruited. We ended up with half a team suited to playing 4-2-3-1 and half a team suited to playing Hodgson's outdated style. That was then compounded by having a stat freak as a DoF and no clear recruitment policy. We might be in a far better position now if Kenny had been appointed as Rafa's replacement instead of having the damage caused by Purslow and Hodgson's tenure.

I think that's a fair and accurate comment.

You seem to have a handle on the youth and academy stuff - do you think Segura is now saying to Kenny the blueprint is 4-2-3-1 so play it? Or do you think it has been revised with Kenny via Hodgson/Comolli?
Join the fight - fans v journos: http://pickourteam.com || Twitter feed

Offline west_london_red

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,024
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2012, 02:34:33 PM »
Absolutely. When we finished 2nd under Rafa, we were playing what I believe is how Liverpool should be playing. The first half of that season, right up to the shock Spurs defeat, we were as good as I've seen us.

The balance was fantastic. We knew when to twist and when to stick. Had a great mixture of passing and knew how to keep possession. Our defence was rock solid and the goals were flying in. I was hard to put your finger on exac;y what style of play it was. The formation was usually pretty stable, but the 'tempo' and general style seemed to be pretty fluid.


You missed another key strength we had, one which all good teams have and thats a strong mentality. That season, like all good teams we didnt know when we were beaten, if we went a goal down our heads didnt drop we just came back at them until we got an equaliser and kept on going, we litterally squeezed teams into their own penalty box until we scored
"We have a manager, we have a team which will not change this year, we have games to play and matches to win. Get behind them, back them, give them our best support and lets see what they can do"

VdM

Offline The Grinch

  • Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,914
  • JFT 96
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2012, 02:40:50 PM »
I think that's a fair and accurate comment.

You seem to have a handle on the youth and academy stuff - do you think Segura is now saying to Kenny the blueprint is 4-2-3-1 so play it? Or do you think it has been revised with Kenny via Hodgson/Comolli?

I think a managers job is to find a system that will get the most out of the players at his disposal because if he doesn't then he won't be the manager long enough to see through any long term plans. A perfect example is Rafa bringing in McParland, Segura, Borrell and Dalglish to roles at the Academy but being around long enough to see the fruition of their appointments.

I think it's the Clubs responsibility to set out how it wants to play the game and to bring through players that fit within that framework. I think FSG probably have the right idea with a DoF but they didn't define the role properly and they then compounded that by appointing someone who is a glorified scout.

That's why I think the restructuring of the Club that FSG are undertaking is absolutely vital.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,200
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2012, 02:46:48 PM »
When we say play the same way through the youth and reserves thats a sticking point for me - as Rafa used to say its just a starting formation really isn't it? Are we really asking as Nessy says for a rigid tactical formation or are we looking to teach players to adapt to whatever is required in the match circumstances?

It used to be that if the fullback joined the attack that they stayed with it, that it was somebody else's job to cover. it used to be if the centre half saw a gap they would be encouraged to move into the space.

At academy/reserve level we have specialised players - Coady and Biao look to be bulk standard dont cross the half way line, stay within 10 yards your centre backs defensive midfielders - whether thats because their skill sets limit them to that or their attributes lend them to that role I dont know - Lussey and Suso tend to be given more freedom, we seem to have designated off the striker/between the lines no.10's - we seem to have dedicated wide players - - what we dont use, although we do have lads that could play the role is a tall, target man striker.


The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Filter

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 193
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2012, 03:08:33 PM »
In reply to the opening post regarding copying Barcelona.  It's not about copying. Barcelona didn't invent their current style either by themselfs. It's a mixture of Spanish football and Ajax total football. Cruijff took his knowledge and applied it to Barcelona. And over the years that has evolved into it's own entity. Now I don't think anyone here would claim Barcelona copied anything. Technically we aren't doing anything different by hiring people like Benitez, Segura and Borell.

Personally I think England youth development should be revised from the ground up, on a national level. Unfortunately that's more a. F.A. issue than a Liverpool issue, and the F.A. really have no clue.

Offline Upinsmoke

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,968
  • JFT96
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2012, 03:14:43 PM »
I think somebody posted something about segura not too long back, about what there looking for and the kind of attributes they want the players to have. It didn't strike me as copying Barcelona, more like combining, using the core strengths of the English game.
"Liverpool Football Club is the heartland of football folklore." - Brendan Rodgers

PSN I.D: Upinsmoke2k7

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,200
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2012, 03:21:19 PM »
I think somebody posted something about segura not too long back, about what there looking for and the kind of attributes they want the players to have. It didn't strike me as copying Barcelona, more like combining, using the core strengths of the English game.


yep thats the bit in quotes top of page 2 bottom or page 1 :)

I do think the club are saying the right things about evolving and having our own identity - its more that many of our fans seem to be pining for the catalan fjords
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,200
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2012, 03:25:31 PM »
In reply to the opening post regarding copying Barcelona.  It's not about copying. Barcelona didn't invent their current style either by themselfs. It's a mixture of Spanish football and Ajax total football. Cruijff took his knowledge and applied it to Barcelona. And over the years that has evolved into it's own entity. Now I don't think anyone here would claim Barcelona copied anything. Technically we aren't doing anything different by hiring people like Benitez, Segura and Borell.

Personally I think England youth development should be revised from the ground up, on a national level. Unfortunately that's more a. F.A. issue than a Liverpool issue, and the F.A. really have no clue.

The new revised reserve league structure and the Next gen will both hopefully be useful improvements and the new lets pinch any good kids and pay little clubs peanuts (elite player development) policy is another change the impact of which has still to be measured - but there is still a huge gap between 18 and 21 and first eam football - one you can drive a coach and horses through -  the lets teach the kids the 'Liverpool Way' approach is buggered when in order to get first team experience they have to go to Northampton or Rayo Vallecano to get it
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,775
  • Back LFC
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2012, 03:34:31 PM »
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/green-light-for-u21s-league-to-replace-reserves-7622226.html

I didn't know much about this so googled it and got the above.

Could somebody please explain how that will be any different from the current structure of reserve team football?  How will competition increase?

Offline OperationIvy

  • Main Stander
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2012, 03:42:46 PM »
Absolutely. When we finished 2nd under Rafa, we were playing what I believe is how Liverpool should be playing. The first half of that season, right up to the shock Spurs defeat, we were as good as I've seen us.

The balance was fantastic. We knew when to twist and when to stick. Had a great mixture of passing and knew how to keep possession. Our defence was rock solid and the goals were flying in. I was hard to put your finger on exac;y what style of play it was. The formation was usually pretty stable, but the 'tempo' and general style seemed to be pretty fluid.

I still feel anger at the hand fate dealt us. Had the club been on a more stable footing, I'm convinced Rafa would have lead us to the title by now.

One thing I will say is that, Tika-taka or not, we must only be looking at players who are very comfortable and proficient at making and taking short and middle distance passes. The players we sign should also be players that actively offer for the ball and stay out of the shadows. Any successful style of play relies on these fundamentals in my opinion. This is why I rate Henderson. He's been mediocre in his first year, but I love the fact that he has the basics nailed. I can see him doing very well for us in the future. It was similar with Lucas.

I think you are missing a key point from when we finished second. There were quite a few games (more than reasonably expected) when we went a goal down, even 2 goals down and ended up winnning the game. Although Rafa was a very conservative manager (his biggest downfall in my opinion), he at least had the balls to throw caution to wind and go for it when we were in a losing position. If we hadnt had conceded the first goal (which therefore forced Rafa to take a more attacking approach), a lot of those games would have ended up in 0-0 draws because a lot of the football we played was very stale and Rafa would never make attack minded changes if the score was still level. If I remember correctly we did have a fair few draws in that season, which was the main reason we didnt win the title. Although, credit to Rafa for putting together a decent squad, who could get goals if given the license to go for it.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 03:45:08 PM by OperationIvy »

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,200
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2012, 03:47:51 PM »
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/green-light-for-u21s-league-to-replace-reserves-7622226.html

I didn't know much about this so googled it and got the above.

Could somebody please explain how that will be any different from the current structure of reserve team football?  How will competition increase?

the current reserve set up isn't national its grouped north and south and you should play each other twice with the top teams going into a final - thats a maximum of 21 games - add to that some teams dont bother entering and its even less - if its national that should mean 38 games - there should also be a cup competition but I've yet to hear any details of that.

reserve games are also not scheduled in line with first team matches meaning the better youngsters may miss matches to sit on the first team bench getting even less playing time and reducing teh quality as the best are missing

I think the idea is to allow two or three older players - either to provide experience, older players to play while recovering from injury or allow young players who've had bad injuries to make up for lost time

the article implies this is 13-14 I thought it was 12-13........

many of the european nations have far better development opportunities for their reserve sides as they play in genuine league competition - the spaniards as high as teh championship, the germans league one etc - this is a compromise - we have 92 professional league sides and more in the conference - its more than double most other countries but if we were to allow reserve sides in the league many of those smaller clubs would go to the wall.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 03:52:41 PM by Vulmea »
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Andy @ Allerton

  • A Famous Grouse. Aaaand we're back in the room...Loves Mission Impossible theme tune.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,687
  • Meh meh meh meh meh.
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2012, 03:50:01 PM »
As regards Andy's veiled reference to  Stevie G  and fitting him into the picture, I dont think its about building around his talents - I think his talents should enhance the team - he can play off the striker, wide right, in a central three, he can even perform a holding role effectively - we are lucky to have such a brilliant player and we can use him going forward.


It applies to anyone mate. Everyone associated with the club should want the best for the club. That always means looking to the future. You can enhance the team as you say - but only if the past is brought it sensibly. The structure and direction of the team should be forward thinking, dynamic and always looking ahead. If you can add to that then you need strength at the top to tell each any every single player what is expected of them in any game and then to demand that they adhere to this. If it's a total free role then that too is fine - as long as it fits into the dynamic of the team and everyone expects it.

Chelsea without one of our ageing players on Tuesday showed movement, verve, pace and style. You can only do that when every single member of the team is as important as every other member. There shouldn't be times when you are waiting for instructions on any given move nor should there be times when you are stopped and then instructed to give the ball when you are in a better position. You certainly should never be in flow and then have to stop and regress with the ball for no good aim.

I think every team that builds along those lines suffers. It breaks your own play up. Slows your own play down and always gives the opportunity and advantage to the other team. We've had it a few times at this club and other clubs suffer. The most obvious one of late being Beckham where he 'ran the show' and Ferguson hated it. Everything started to go through Beckham and it was easy to curtail their moves by taking him out of the game. There have been plenty of players around across the years where although still good players in their own right, they are held back by the natural progression they can see and others cannot. Gerrard in particular makes it obvious on the field when he believes whether a player is up to his standard or not. He obviously chooses to take the ball off some players and obviously chooses not to give the ball to others. This is not condusive to advantageous positions or movement or play.

The hardest job for any manager is to move on. It's ten times harder when you have a hero like Gerrard playing for you. He's rightly lauded as one of the best players ever to have played for Liverpool FC. He's run through brick walls. Pulled us out of the shite and along with his team mates he's won us stuff. But much of that is 2, 3, 5 or more years ago. He's not the same player but he's still got the same demands on himself and other players. Demands that he maybe can't honour and demands that are unfair on those that are on the up now while he's on the decline.

I've said all along - and I stick by it - IF Gerrard can contribute and bring us results and can personally lift us in games then fantastic! That means that LFC is doing well. Others can develop and it's worth having him here. More than worth it.

But if he can't. If his introduction leads to static play, demands of the ball in ridiclous positions, break down of our own attacks and allowing the opposition free reign in areas that are supposed to be covered then it's time to think of the future.

What benefits LFC is the only thing I'm interested in. We look to the future and use the past if it benefits us. Otherwise we get rid.

Might sound harsh - but we've not been stolid and ruthless enough when we should have been. This team needs to progress and that means moving forward. Any player that cannot keep up is surplus to requirements.
Football has reached the ninth gate of farce and pathetic, unbelievable trite nonsense. It's supposed to be a game and it's turned into pantomime, hype, quilts and bellends.

Offline No666

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,909
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2012, 03:50:57 PM »
I think you are right - pretty sure he gave it LFC .TV - where he emphasised the need to be LFC not a clone of Barca.


Indeedy - unless both our memories are knackered. (Only too likely in my case.) But going on that hazy memory and those interviews you've quoted there, it seems the recognition is of a passing game with an added edge and speed, plus a determination not to be bullied. Bremner vs Keegan anyone?
BETTISON IS LAUGHING AT YOU.....AND YOU PAY FOR IT! SIGN THIS! https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47770

Offline The Grinch

  • Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,914
  • JFT 96
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2012, 03:56:01 PM »
The new revised reserve league structure and the Next gen will both hopefully be useful improvements and the new lets pinch any good kids and pay little clubs peanuts (elite player development) policy is another change the impact of which has still to be measured - but there is still a huge gap between 18 and 21 and first eam football - one you can drive a coach and horses through -  the lets teach the kids the 'Liverpool Way' approach is buggered when in order to get first team experience they have to go to Northampton or Rayo Vallecano to get it

Hopefully in a few years time when the style of play the 18-21 year olds has been brought up on is closer to the style of play of the first team it will be easier for players to make the jump. Arsenal and United have been far more successful than we have at integrating young players. Partly because they have had a defined style of play and partly because they have far more experience at doing it than we have.

That for me shows the importance of having joined up thinking and even more importantly the role that continuity plays in the progression of a Club. We are paying the price for the years of disconnect between Melwood and Kirkby where Heighway was largely left to his own devices and there was no strategic planning and no one looking at the bigger picture. Maybe the greatest legacy of Benitez may well be the realisation that Melwood and Kirkby needed to be on the same page.

One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,775
  • Back LFC
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2012, 03:58:30 PM »
the current reserve set up isn't national its grouped north and south and you should play each other twice with the top teams going into a final - thats a maximum of 21 games - add to that some teams dont bother entering and its even less - if its national that should mean 38 games - there should also be a cup competition but I've yet to hear any details of that.

reserve games are also not scheduled in line with first team matches meaning the better youngsters may miss matches to sit on the first team bench getting even less playing time and reducing teh quality as the best are missing

I think the idea is to allow two or three older players - either to provide experience, older players to play while recovering from injury or allow young players who've had bad injuries to make up for lost time

the article implies this is 13-14 I thought it was 12-13........

many of the european nations have far better development opportunities for their reserve sides as they play in genuine league competition - the spaniards as high as teh championship, the germans league one etc - this is a compromise - we have 92 professional league sides and more in the conference - its more than double most other countries but if we were to allow reserve sides in the league many of those smaller clubs would go to the wall.
Thank you, Vulmea.

That makes sense now.  More games and better quality.  Glad they are starting to sort this out.

As evil as it sounds, I think this proposed reserve league would benefit from TV exposure.

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,775
  • Back LFC
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2012, 04:03:22 PM »
Hopefully in a few years time when the style of play the 18-21 year olds has been brought up on is closer to the style of play of the first team it will be easier for players to make the jump. Arsenal and United have been far more successful than we have at integrating young players. Partly because they have had a defined style of play and partly because they have far more experience at doing it than we have.
Sure Al, those guys are light years ahead of us in that department.  People start to talk about how good this United youngster is or how well that United youngster played fail to see the bigger picture.  These guys are managed into the first team.  There is a process.  When they finally arrive, they are ready.  The defined style of play is key as everyone knows what they are working towards.

Quote
Maybe the greatest legacy of Benitez may well be the realisation that Melwood and Kirkby needed to be on the same page.


I do hope that this is one day the case.  This why I see Benitez as a football man.

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,200
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2012, 04:07:57 PM »

It applies to anyone mate.

Absolutely does - Barnesy walking around central midfield springs to mind but Gerrard is two years younger than Lampard and a better player,  I think he can offer a lot , he can certainly offere a lot to the squad and if he's used cleverly then everything feeding through him becomes less likely  - if we were to adapt to the talent we have I could see him and Suarez as inside forwards running off Carroll but I dont think we will.

I think the onus will be on Gerrard to adapt not the other way round -  intersting you use Beckham as an example - if he does lose his dynamic surging pace I could see him whipping in those balls from the right without having to beat a man just as Beckahm did,  likewise he could learn to sit and use his wide range of passing to spray the ball around more efficiently - I dont think teh talent is the issue - it'll be all about his mentality - will he be able to accept a less important role.

Although Shanks and Bob were pretty ruthless when a player typically hit 30, it did not stop them keeping hold of Cally. 


The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline ReddyMac

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • These eyes seek more glory!!
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2012, 04:09:14 PM »
There are 3 questions to be asked:
1. What is Liverpool's way, (should there be one, should it change from pass and move to something else etc)
2. What is the best way for us in the PL
3. What's the best way to move forward for European football.

Shouldn't 1 answer 2 and 3?

Why do we need different ways for the league and Europe? Shouldn't the Liverpool way flow throughout the club from 1st team to academy throughout all games?

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,775
  • Back LFC
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2012, 04:10:47 PM »
will he be able to accept a less important role.
This is the important question.  And I'm afraid none of us have the answer.

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,200
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2012, 04:18:46 PM »
Shouldn't 1 answer 2 and 3?

Why do we need different ways for the league and Europe? Shouldn't the Liverpool way flow throughout the club from 1st team to academy throughout all games?

In europe they tend to play with a different interpretation of the rules, they tend to play at a slower pace and they tend to have better technical players - its possible we could play teh same way but if you stick with one style its becomes easier to organise against.

Do you want to develop a single style that you use against the top 6 clubs,in europe and the park the bus teams - is it appropriate? Might be, might not.

One of the accusations against Barca and Arsenal is that they only know one way of playing and when it does not work they do not have a plan B. Granted plan A has worked for Barca 99% of the time but as pointed out above by far cleverer people than me I think they've actually evolved to a point when they are in danger of becoming too specialised - they had greater variety in 2009 than they do now.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Online Gerrvindh

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,542
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2012, 04:20:32 PM »
I love this thread. Like a breath of fresh air. Bookmarked for slow reading. :)
I would prefer a

R.Ferdinand - Terry - A.Ferdinand

Defence.

Offline corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,930
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2012, 04:25:34 PM »
As regards Andy's veiled reference to  Stevie G  and fitting him into the picture, I dont think its about building around his talents - I think his talents should enhance the team - he can play off the striker, wide right, in a central three, he can even perform a holding role effectively - we are lucky to have such a brilliant player and we can use him going forward.

Sorry if this is derailing but Gerrard can't do that. After recent games, the likes of Souness and Redknapp were postulating that Gerrard might drop back into a holding role as he got older but I think that's fantasy stuff. You don't hit 32 and suddenly develop skills you never had. Gerrard isn't at the level we need for a holding mid, in that he doesn't control the tempo of a game and his defensive positioning is poor. He's the guy who comes crashing into a last ditch tackle to save the day when you really need someone who prevents the need to make the tackle.

Gerrard has been a "structural" problem for us since he became our main man. We feel we need to adjust the team so as to utilise him best (much as the corresponding argument for England goes) and that sort of thinking goes against the grain of trying to develop an identifiable "style" of play. Having said that, Barcelona do tailor their style to accommodate Messi, which seems to work, although they tried the same with Ibrahimovic, and that didn't.

Ultimately, time will sort it out for us, as we clearly can't rely on Gerrard for too much longer. I don't see him having the longevity of a Giggs or Scholes because his game was much more based on raw power and kinetic athleticism.

Offline Fat Scouser

  • Trolley Dolly with a 54 2/3 inch waist - last seen shopping on Scottie Road for speedos
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,517
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »
Only read the OP. Good stuff that, and I'm going to catch up with the comments when I've got time later tonight. But just wanted to add this for what it's worth... I think the football we get in this country is what the fans demand. There's the odd difference here and there between teams. I mean, Stoke can't be compared to Swansea. But the 1000 mile an hour, hurly burly, hurdy gurdy, is something that people are used to and pretty much demand. Anything less than "Get stuck in," isn't really seen as entertainment by most football fans.
As for the pass and move game we developed under Shankly... I don't know if this is true, but I read a book called "Shanks." I wish I still had it. I'm not one for football books, unless you can put stickers in them. But this one was fantastic. It was just people who knew the great man telling their memories of him. There's some brilliant tales in there. I can't remember who told the one I am thinking of, but... they reckoned Bill came up with that give and go, one/two touch, pass and move when he worked in the pits at Glenbuck. They reckoned the miners used to have a 20 minute break on the surface at dinner time. They used to play togger on the top of the slag heap, but the ball kept going down the mound and they wasted most of their break chasing it down and bringing it back up. So, they knocked boards into the slag and kept the ball on the deck. And apparently Bill done the same thing after he'd cleared all the bricks and shite off the grass at Melwood, and played 5 a sides like they did back home in the pits. Whether that's a load of bollocks, I don't know. And I suppose it doesn't really have much to do with the OP. But any chance to tell a story about Shanks, eh.

And I really enjoy watching Barca's tika-tacka, or tippy-tappy, or whatever it's called. But in England, week in week out, it would probably be about as much use as Gandhi's passive resistance against the SS. But there again, the Mahatma did reckon it would bladder Hitler in the end. And who am I to argue with him, but I hope to see Andy Carroll rampaging through defences next season like a one man Panzer division. In fact, I can't wait.
"The issue which has swept down the centuries, and which will have to be fought sooner or later, is the people vs the banks. Lord Acton, Historian, 1834 - 1902.

www.misternobody.co.uk

Love you Luis, yer mad bastard, yer.

Offline Nessy76

  • Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,826
    • Yet Another Football Blog
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2012, 04:48:11 PM »
many of the european nations have far better development opportunities for their reserve sides as they play in genuine league competition - the spaniards as high as teh championship, the germans league one etc - this is a compromise - we have 92 professional league sides and more in the conference - its more than double most other countries but if we were to allow reserve sides in the league many of those smaller clubs would go to the wall.

Not necessarily, although it's not really on topic here. Splitting Leagues 1 & 2 into 3 regional divisions could open up lots of spaces, reduce travelling costs, promote a lot of teams, give more players exposure to Premier League grounds and leave plenty of room for reserve sides.

Offline Z e u s

  • Greek God of Whinging. But for the good of the forum! Son of Moanus and Rhea.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,413
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2012, 04:55:35 PM »
I personally find Barca quite boring to watch.  They play some brilliant football and when Messi gets the ball I do get excited with his dribbling and finishing.  But a lot of their play is just boring passing.  I appreciate how simple they make the game look, but it can be boring to watch a lot of the time and they are very one dimensional.

I like to think The Liverpool Way is based mainly on 'pass and move', however we will mix up our game and will play the right pass - be it long or short and this gives us more variety and capable of beating teams in many different ways.

I think that is the idea of the Carroll / Suarez partnership.  If we can't beat teams with the the movement and skill of Suarez or beat teams with our passing game, then we also have a different option in Carroll who adds variety and if he plays like he has done in the last few weeks gives our attack a new dimension.

I believe Dalglish is getting The Liverpool Way back to the club.  Not only on the pitch where I believe we are playing the right brand of football, it is just a shame we haven't been more clinical to turn that good play into more winning football.  But also off the field, by keeping our business all behind closed doors.

We aren't Barca, we are Liverpool, we do have our own identity and I believe we are on the right track to being successful again by having a young squad which can grow and improve.  Reina, Johnson, Kelly, Flanagan, Agger, Coates, Skrtel, Enrique, Robinson, Lucas, Spearing, Henderson, Shelvey, Suarez, Sterling, Suso, Carroll etc are all under 30, many under 25.  That is a really good foundation of the squad to work with as they can play together for 5+ years together.  Defensively we are very good and will improve with the return of Lucas.  We do keep possession of the ball very well, as well as any other team in the league IMO and we have created loads of chances.  A little more quality in the final third which:

- a fit Gerrard can provide if played higher up the field
- a less unlucky Suarez
- the Carroll we have seen in recent weeks
- the exciting Sterling
- a few new signings

can all privide and then we should be thinking of success more and more over years.

I do believe Dalglish and FSG are getting The Liverpool Way back on track, on and off the field.

Offline Z e u s

  • Greek God of Whinging. But for the good of the forum! Son of Moanus and Rhea.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,413
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2012, 05:05:19 PM »
Sorry if this is derailing but Gerrard can't do that. After recent games, the likes of Souness and Redknapp were postulating that Gerrard might drop back into a holding role as he got older but I think that's fantasy stuff. You don't hit 32 and suddenly develop skills you never had. Gerrard isn't at the level we need for a holding mid, in that he doesn't control the tempo of a game and his defensive positioning is poor. He's the guy who comes crashing into a last ditch tackle to save the day when you really need someone who prevents the need to make the tackle.

Gerrard has been a "structural" problem for us since he became our main man. We feel we need to adjust the team so as to utilise him best (much as the corresponding argument for England goes) and that sort of thinking goes against the grain of trying to develop an identifiable "style" of play. Having said that, Barcelona do tailor their style to accommodate Messi, which seems to work, although they tried the same with Ibrahimovic, and that didn't.

Ultimately, time will sort it out for us, as we clearly can't rely on Gerrard for too much longer. I don't see him having the longevity of a Giggs or Scholes because his game was much more based on raw power and kinetic athleticism.

Gerrard used to be brilliant as the holding player, when he was younger and used to love a good tackle.  But now his hunger is to win games and defensively he doesn't tackle like he used to and I would agree with you he is best used as more of a match winner.

I think Gerrard can adapt with age.  He won't be as dynamic as he used to be, but then again nor is Giggs now to what he once was or Scholes - you don't see his bursting into the box time and time again as he did in his prime.  But Gerrard will never lose his ability to pass, finish and his touch  so I am sure he will adapt with age.

But personally I'd rather he was used more in the final third as he got older, either on the right or in a free central role, as he is such a special player and match winner he is wasted in a cautious and defensive holding role.

He is 31 and I am not writing him off and I bet if fit he will be our main match winner, along with Suarez next season.

Offline Fat Scouser

  • Trolley Dolly with a 54 2/3 inch waist - last seen shopping on Scottie Road for speedos
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,517
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2012, 05:09:07 PM »
It was mentioned in the aul arse thread a few days ago... Gerrard would be brilliant in a Lothar Mathaus, sweeper type role. I'd agree, but you know he'd never accept that.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 05:13:19 PM by Fat Scouser »
"The issue which has swept down the centuries, and which will have to be fought sooner or later, is the people vs the banks. Lord Acton, Historian, 1834 - 1902.

www.misternobody.co.uk

Love you Luis, yer mad bastard, yer.

Offline corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,930
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2012, 05:09:20 PM »
Gerrard used to be brilliant as the holding player, when he was younger and used to love a good tackle. 

I'm going to presume you didn't actually read my post.

Offline Z e u s

  • Greek God of Whinging. But for the good of the forum! Son of Moanus and Rhea.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,413
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2012, 05:10:50 PM »
I forgot to add in my post about The Liverpool Way, that we are at our best and have been under Dalglish, Houiller and Benitez in recent times playing at high tempo, putting teams under pressure by pressing high up the field.

Unfortunately it seems we can only play this way in big games and I think it is a large reason why someone like Kuyt looks great in big games, where we do press high and he forces mistakes, as his game is all about pressure and constantly movement, pressing - giving his opposition opponent no time to breath or relax.

When we play a slow paced game some of our players weaknesses get exposed, such as Kuyt's first touch and ability to create.  I am just using Kuyt as an example as someone who looks great when we play that high tempo, high pressing game and looking a far less threatening and effective player when we play weaker teams and the side doesn't play at such a high tempo and we have more possession and need to create more against teams that sit deep and invite pressure, rather than bigger teams where we put pressure on the opposition and force mistakes.

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,775
  • Back LFC
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2012, 05:11:28 PM »
It was mentioned in the aul arse thread a few days ago... Gerrard would be brilliant in a Mathaus Lothar, sweeper type role. But you know he'd never accept that.
We don't know though, that's the point.

I'd say a key part of the near future is getting Gerrard to accept such a role.  Managing his expectations and asking him to help the younger lads develop.

Offline Z e u s

  • Greek God of Whinging. But for the good of the forum! Son of Moanus and Rhea.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,413
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2012, 05:12:18 PM »
I'm going to presume you didn't actually read my post.

I did.

You said you don't hit 32 and develop skills you never had.  Gerrard had the skills, but he is now too much of a valuable match winner to be a discplined defensive one.

Offline Fat Scouser

  • Trolley Dolly with a 54 2/3 inch waist - last seen shopping on Scottie Road for speedos
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,517
Re: Not being Barca
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2012, 05:15:32 PM »
We don't know though, that's the point.

I'd say a key part of the near future is getting Gerrard to accept such a role.  Managing his expectations and asking him to help the younger lads develop.
HA! I just noticed what I did there. I'm getting like me Ma, she calls Willie Nelson, Nellie Wilson. I'm starting to do the same thing. Time for a pint I think.
"The issue which has swept down the centuries, and which will have to be fought sooner or later, is the people vs the banks. Lord Acton, Historian, 1834 - 1902.

www.misternobody.co.uk

Love you Luis, yer mad bastard, yer.