Topic: The League Title - How Far Away Are We ?

[JackBauer]

Kennys focus has been on the cups this year.. and look how successful
he's been there.. i like to think if he puts the same focus on the
league challenge the outcome will be similar..
But in this 'shit yourself if your not 4th' world.. he may not be given the
time he deserves.

1. Are you suggesting the league has been treated as an afterthought?

2. If so, when did this policy come into play? 4th was still within reach when we won the Carling Cup. Instead, we've seen two months of consistently shite results. I refuse to believe this was solely because the manager's focus was exclusively on a match against Stoke, and then another one against Everton.

3. Why hasn't the same focus been put on the league?

[mig]

Seriously? Don't see why this is being asked now. We are very, very, VERY far away from the title.

[ShadyCraig]

I don't agree with all the fucking gloom merchants on here, you talk like there's some written rule in footy that a underperforming team takes 5 years + to challenge for CL/title, that's bollocks, I think with 3 top signings we could easily challenge for CL next season + hopefully the season after top three maybe even the title who fucking knows, might happen might not but I sure as hell am not in the morbid mind set that its' going to take 10 years' . Bacon face was 1 minute from getting the sack  in that FA cup game and in 18 position in the league yet next year he won a euro comp, challenged for the league straight after that + won it the year after, Leeds they were challenging with + they had only just fucking come up, who would have said Reading would have won the championship this year, no one that's who. My point is in sport anything can happen + I do admit I think it could take a couple of years but it could happen next year or it could take five but I'm certainly not having it that its years away like its set in stone  or something. We just need to find the right formula along with some clever signings + everything could change (cos it needs changing) but just as easily an even worse transfer window + worse formula could see us getting worse next year because yes you've got it ,fucking anything can happen in footy, I think it every year since our decline after kenny left, + I'm left disappointed every fucking  year but I ain't going to change my beliefs however shit we've been in the league  this year

[Carolina Red]

Took juventus one year from 7th to win the title effectively and go undefeated in all competitions. Difference between us and them? They had a clear plan and were smarter than we were.

Juve also cleared out a lot of "name" players with big reputations (and paychecks) who were coasting, and brought in a young dynamic manager.

[Cruiser]

Reckon we'll see man land on Mars before we win the title.

Not only do we need at least 3 quality first team additions, but a more positive and motivational mindset from the management to instill into the players. With players running around looking clueless and half arsed we really lack that cutting edge and winning mentality that Utd have shown for years.

[L666KOP]

Next year, re establish ourselves in the top 6.
Year 2, genuine challenge for top4, if we get in, brilliant, if we don't it needs to be year 3.
Year 3, see above.
Years 4 and 5 establish ourselves as top 4.

That's my honest timescale.
We need to make ourselves 'better' than evryone barring City, United, and Chelsea. They have access to far more money than we do. Although United may come a cropper when Ferguson retires.
We need to be better over a season than Arsenal and Spuds, and at the moment it looks a long way off.
And I guarantee, that process listed above will not be quick enough for Kenny to keep his job.

[NigelManx]

Its not always about how much is spent....Its all about how its spent and recently that hasnt been good. Those who say 4/5 world class players short of a league win I think are wrong. We dont need a center back where priorities clearly are more in other areas. We need a class wide player and top quality midfielder and of course what everyone wants a 20+ a season goal scorer. realistically with finance thats likely to be available bearing in mind our low league position thats about all we can wish for. It hasnt helped that the big purchases in the main havent worked out and that must worry Henry etc...CL is all we can hope for the league is a long way away although I'd be estactic to be proved wrong.
The style of play needs sorting too I'm afraid and thats a worry.

[Black Bull Nova]

Next year, re establish ourselves in the top 6.
Year 2, genuine challenge for top4, if we get in, brilliant, if we don't it needs to be year 3.
Year 3, see above.
Years 4 and 5 establish ourselves as top 4.

That's my honest timescale.
We need to make ourselves 'better' than evryone barring City, United, and Chelsea. They have access to far more money than we do. Although United may come a cropper when Ferguson retires.
We need to be better over a season than Arsenal and Spuds, and at the moment it looks a long way off.
And I guarantee, that process listed above will not be quick enough for Kenny to keep his job.

That's conservative and will be seen as unnacceptable. I do believe that the lack of ability to finish this year has crept through into the confidence of the players. Barring life since the LC final we outplayed most teams this season but did not get the reward. Its a fine line and with Lucas and a couple of extra players we can go a long way.

Newcastle didn't sit around waiting to progress, they got on with it (and made a profit as well, mainly out of us)

[L666KOP]

1. Are you suggesting the league has been treated as an afterthought?

Since we beat Cardiff, yes I do.
Looks to me like qualification for Europe was gained, mission accomplished.

[Rohit]

Juve also cleared out a lot of "name" players with big reputations (and paychecks) who were coasting, and brought in a young dynamic manager.

Yup, like I said a plan. Your all either in this and giving it 100% or your out. No sentiment there at all just take the club forward. They also had alot turmoil off the pitch aswell and were ever worse than we were pissing cash down the drain with flops in the transfer market. But not this time they had a vision and implemented it very well. They also knew because they were juventus even without champions league they could attract the likes of vidal who left a champions league team for them and turned other clubs.

Something we haven't done more of bar luis.

[west_london_red]

miles away, but as long as theres progress year on year and we're making inroads to the teams at the top thats enough for now. If I had to put a number against it, I would say 5 years until we can think of a challenge, and theres no gurantee that challenge will end successfully either of course.

[Carolina Red]

I think, in an odd way, the OP is right, we're "only" 3 world class players from a title-winning side.  We have the depth behind those players to cover injuries now, but the top quality in the first XI is what we need.

The problem is that is not very close at all.  It's actually miles away, truth be told.  To get 3 world-class players who slot into our side, we'd have to probably buy 5 or 6 players, since it seems that even a very good manager only hits on slightly more than half his purchases (you can look it up, from Ferguson, Mourinho, Benitez, whoever, they never get them all right).  At least 5, because the way we've been buying lately we get one good purchase for every 3 bad ones, so it might be more like 8 or 9 to get the three we need to win the title. 

That's 5 players at or around the 20 million pound mark, and that's if we have some excellent scouting and player selection.  We could go cheaper and get lucky - it happens - but that would make it even less likely.

So, ask yourself, how likely are we to bring in 5 top players this summer?  And the answer is not likely at all.  At most, we'll get one of the three we need, and makeshift options that could possibly work out for the other two.  The best we're going to do next season is top 4 and another good Cup run.  The season after that, with good investment and a bit of luck, as well as some of the youngsters developing, we could possibly challenge for the league again.

This.

When FSG bought the club a year and a half ago, he clearly set forth the goal: the win the Premier League. He also stated that LFC were "about five years" behind Manchester United (which reveals FSG's internal time frame to win the league).

This season has been a HUGE setback towards that goal. Henry stated that it would be a "major disappointment" if the club failed to qualify for the Champions League. I know some on here don't want to hear it, but qualifying for the Champions League (and the GBP35-40 million in revenue) is essential to challenge for the Premier League given the spending levels at United and City. Fact is, being out of the Champions League is like a "mini-relegation," it renders you financially uncompetitive to challege for the title, and the longer you stay "down," the more difficult it is to get back up.

[L666KOP]

Juve also cleared out a lot of "name" players with big reputations (and paychecks) who were coasting, and brought in a young dynamic manager.

They had more patience than Chelsea then ?
That model failed miserably down the Kings road, for one reason or another.

[Rohit]

They had more patience than Chelsea then ?
That model failed miserably down the Kings road, for one reason or another.

They actually got rid of those player unlike chelsea and the manager himself was a league winning captain with Juventus so he naturally had their respect regardless.

[west_london_red]

We've been only 3 world class players away from the title for the 20 odd years I been a supporter, if it was that simple to buy them we wouldnt be waiting 22 years.

[stardorman]

1. Are you suggesting the league has been treated as an afterthought?

2. If so, when did this policy come into play? 4th was still within reach when we won the Carling Cup. Instead, we've seen two months of consistently shite results. I refuse to believe this was solely because the manager's focus was exclusively on a match against Stoke, and then another one against Everton.

3. Why hasn't the same focus been put on the league?

You'd have to ask Kenny why the focus seems to be on the cups..

But the success we may have there gives me massive encouragement.

Kenny must be amazed by everyones impatience these days..
A possible Cup double and fans still call for ur head.


If we win the Cup double will u feel this season has been a failure?

[Vulmea]

mm, the glib answer is 22 years this week.

every team, us included say they are one or two players away every year dont they

if you look at what should be our main rivals.....

Look at the United team - they dont have a central midfield, they dont have a right back, their centre backs are broken, their keeper has a lot to prove. They are joint top. Is Ferguson a tactical genius , not in any way shape of form. He clearly is an extraordinary leader though. They also benefit from their reputation and they have some good young players who may come good - Cleverly, Smalling, Jones, De Gea. They can score goals though.

Look at the City team - its hard to find a weakness  but at the same time they are not unbeatable, they have half a dozen exceptional players - Toure, Kompany, Silva, Aguero, Hart maybe.......Mancini seems a good manager but nothing exceptional. They benefit in the main from massive strength in depth of good players.

Chelsea - aging squad, very interesting if they miss out on the CL, what manager next year?

Spurs - same ol. same ol, poor old 'Arry.

Arsenal - same ol, same ol, one day Arsene

Newcastle - luckiest team in the league this season

Then to be honest there is nothing to be scared of.

To challenge for the title - we need 18 or 19 good players, with some exceptional talent but most importantly we need a 'team'  - if Benitez can win the CL with Traore, Biscan, Cisse, Vlad, a one legged Kewell, the erratic Dudek and Meeeelan then for me 'team' is always be more important than individuals its just that for the PL that 'team' has to be 18 or 19 strong.

Unfortunately I think we'll be losing a couple of good players in the summer, Maxi and Kuyt meaning we'll need to sign more players to replace them and every transfer comes with a risk. Add to that where we already need to strengthen and you can see why logically it may take a couple of seasons

However if you believe in luck then after this season we should be able to close our eyes and score for fun next year - maybe we've just been doing the first bit this season

add to that I always think we can win every game and we can ever be a season away.

[Snoopy29]

how about the  2007/8/9  season

How far were the team then?


Just curious

[Carolina Red]

They had more patience than Chelsea then ?
That model failed miserably down the Kings road, for one reason or another.

It failed at Chelsea because they didn't execute the "clear out" older big name players part of it. They players acted in self-preservation; they knew they were on their way out if Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas was given time to implement his plan. The current CL run is the last gasp of the aging core JoMo squad.

[ShadyCraig]

We've been only 3 world class players away from the title for the 20 odd years I been a supporter, if it was that simple to buy them we wouldnt be waiting 22 years.

doesn't mean it can't or won't happen it just means it hasn't happened for us, I'm sure scum fans were saying the same thing at the turn of the nineties

[NigelManx]

The old liverpool  way was the right way in my opinion. As a player gets near to possibly not maintaining a standard they were gone. No sentiment. I'm afraid that hasnt happened for a while but instead weve brought in inferior players as well without clearing out players who still have a value and we should have cashed in.

[L666KOP]

It failed at Chelsea because they didn't execute the "clear out" older big name players part of it. They players acted in self-preservation; they knew they were on their way out if Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas was given time to implement his plan. The current CL run is the last gasp of the aging core JoMo squad.

Correct, and this just proves that sometimes the board have to 'swallow their knobs' and back a manager to implement 'the plan'.
Roman shit himself when the players went into self preservation mode, when in actual fact he should have 'sacrificed' a senior player to show he was backing Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas.
This summer is gonna be a shit or get off the pot time for FSG.

[lessthanmatt]

I get a wave of optimism at the start of every campaign where I think we're really capable of competing up there. Sadly, the reality is that we are not.

The top 4 should be minimum expectation next year once again, regardless of where we finish this year, in my opinion. We suffered from a severe lack of luck in the first half of the season, where I think we played better than our opponents in every game bar three or so, and then came the inexcusable performances and points-drought we're now slowly stuttering out of. Despite this, I genuinely believe we're a lot better than the table suggests. Absolutely nowhere near the title though.

Hoping for a few class additions this summer, as I see this as necessary to improve, and preferably ones for the 'now' as opposed to 'ones for the future', if possible; I'm impatient dammit!

[Carolina Red]

The old liverpool  way was the right way in my opinion. As a player gets near to possibly not maintaining a standard they were gone. No sentiment. I'm afraid that hasnt happened for a while but instead weve brought in inferior players as well without clearing out players who still have a value and we should have cashed in.

Couldn't agree more. It's always better to sell a player a year too early than a year too late. T. Henry being (respectfully) shipped out of Arsenal is a great example of how to do it. 

[southendkopite]

The disappointing thing about this and the thing that frustrates and fucking angers me the most is that the core of our squad that the OP posted isn't that bad at all. It is pretty much where we were at the end of last season (bar Enrique). The foundations were there.

The one season where we get significant investment to improve the squad, we fuck it up big time. Thats what angers me and fucks me up. Sadly we all know what has happened and i feel we've let too big an opportunity past. We bought too many average players who we're gonna take a massive hit on. We would have easily been challenging for a top 4 position if we were smarter in our dealings.

[Teddy Ted Ted Anfield Ed]

We will never contend the league title let alone win it until we create an identity and long term vision implemented in the club. The building blocks are there with FSG, the youth system and the infrastructure.

Personally and I know I'll be shot down in flames, I do think Kenny should retire in the summer. Clearly his methods, over a 38 league campaign is not working. His transfers have flopped. He has to take responsibility for our league position.

In terms of squad disposition. I believe we need 8 players to even compete for it. We need 4 quality central defenders - thus a replacement for Carra is a must. We need a DM and a CM. We need a right midfield/winger, an AM, a Left midfielder/winger and 2 forwards. IMO to even go near challenging for the league, but doing it all in one, two or even three transfer windows will be detrimental, because we need to add them to the squad gradually, implement our vision and strategy on the squad and slowly introduce the young players from the youth team into the squad.

So it is a long process.

[Carolina Red]

Correct, and this just proves that sometimes the board have to 'swallow their knobs' and back a manager to implement 'the plan'.
Roman shit himself when the players went into self preservation mode, when in actual fact he should have 'sacrificed' a senior player to show he was backing Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas.
This summer is gonna be a shit or get off the pot time for FSG.

Agreed. Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas said that Roman told him that the senior core would stay for one more year to ease the transition as Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas brought in new players to play his system.

Luís André de Pina Cabral e Villas-Boas's mistake: trusting Roman. I think he's a quality manager with a big upside, but Chelsea was the wrong move at the wrong time.

[Djimi_Case]

Well, looking on the bright side Juventus finished 7th for the past two seasons and they're going to win Serie A this year. It's not impossible that we could be challenging again soon but after league season we've had it's hard to be optimistic.

[noname]

Not as far off as some think. If only the players could be bothered/had some belief/gave a damn for anything other than their wages.

 

[Billy The Kid.]

How far are we away from the league title?

The answer lies within; to what extent do we over rate some of our players?

Because we over rate a few of them

[arnaldo]

Hahaha, I wondered when the likes of this standard annual thread would come up. I got slated in last yrs one for ridiculing it so I won't say much other than we are at present a mid table team. To actaully WIN the league - we are light yrs away unfortunately

[Junkle]

It deepends on who will be making those signings even if the money was in abundance. Thus far if Kenny was genuine when he said he was the one responsible for the summer signings then we are no where near your three signings because if he is given money to buy those three the success rate might be 33 %.

[geoffstrong 1937-2013 RIP]

Took juventus one year from 7th to win the title effectively and go undefeated in all competitions. Difference between us and them? They had a clear plan and were smarter than we were.

Easier league less quality and yes i watch it every weekend on Espn. not even as good  as the bundesliga right now!

[Andy @ Allerton]

"Through the Wind and the Storm" eh?

[LFC-Dan]

Im afraid winning the league comes down to having shed loads of money these days and at the minute we simply cannot compete with the likes of City to attract the big name players to make that step up.  To quote mr Andy @ Allerton slighty - It's one of the main reason this league is so bent.

You'd think the status of the club and tradition alone would be enough to attract that calibre of player but money pretty much drives everyone these days.   

[LondonRedMan]

We are not that far behind Manu and Manu are challenging. We've beaten them and City this season. Hendo, Carroll and Shelvey will have more experience next season and we will strengthen. We will challenge. Kenny will set a strong squad up for next season. Kenny is more experienced now as well in that he knows the strengths and weaknesses of each player and which areas require strengthening.

[Always_A_Red]

"Through the Wind and the Storm" eh?

If we're talking about the league Andy our storm and wind has been for 22 years! 

[Andy @ Allerton]

If we're talking about the league Andy our storm and wind has been for 22 years! 

One day there will be a golden sky

[Zimlfc]

we are miles away from the title , we need 4-5 of real quality to make that happen. With a bit more luck this season we would have been in the running for 4th place

[Always_A_Red]

We are not that far behind Manu and Manu are challenging. We've beaten them and City this season. Hendo, Carroll and Shelvey will have more experience next season and we will strengthen. We will challenge. Kenny will set a strong squad up for next season. Kenny is more experienced now as well in that he knows the strengths and weaknesses of each player and which areas require strengthening.

 

If 34 points is 'not that far behind' then I dont really know what is. We have some really deluded fans we really do. Not just having a pop at you mate but we are further away from UTD than we have been in the past 2 decades!