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Author Topic: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Liars Paradise: Obama Wins!  (Read 126243 times)

Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1360 on: August 18, 2012, 08:40:08 AM »
Bush cripples the economy of the entire fucking world and Republicans still won't shut the fuck up for a few years.

How did Bush do that?

Offline RhodyRoadie

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1361 on: August 18, 2012, 10:47:39 AM »
How did Bush do that?

I'll agree with Hoya on this.

Mainly because it was Reagan and his years of "deregulation" that got us into this mess.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1362 on: August 19, 2012, 12:24:39 PM »
Romney advisers confirm it: We’re running a `just trust me’ campaign

By Greg Sargent

I noted here yesterday that Mitt Romney is running a “just trust me” campaign, in which his lack of specificity and transparency extends far beyond just his tax returns, to his bundlers and to large swaths of his policy proposals. Intriguingly enough, Romney advisers have now come right out and confirmed the thinking behind this strategy.

In a development that Dems are pouncing on right now, Romney advisers spelled it all out in interviews with Mike Allen and Jim VandeHei:

    Advisers say the campaign has no plans to pivot from its previous view that diving into details during a general-election race would be suicidal.

    The Romney strategy is simple: Hammer away at Obama for proposing cuts to Medicare and promise, in vague, aspirational ways, to protect the program for future retirees — but don’t get pulled into a public discussion of the most unpopular parts of the Ryan plan.

    “The nature of running a presidential campaign is that you’re communicating direction to the American people,” a Romney adviser said. “Campaigns that are about specifics, particularly in today’s environment, get tripped up.”

You don’t say! Let’s step back and survey the overall picture so far.

Romney has broken with recent precedent — his father included — in refusing to release his tax returns, but he says has paid 13 percent for 10 years. (Just trust me.) Romney has not released the names of his major bundlers, but he won’t be beholden to his donors, as Obama has been. (Just trust me.) Romney vows to eliminate the deficit, and promises that his tax plan will be revenue neutral, even though he won’t say which loopholes and deductions he’d eliminate to pay for deep tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. (Just trust me.) Romney says he intends to eliminate whole agencies of government, but won’t say which ones, except in closed-door meetings with donors, and even then, details are scarce. (All together now: Just trust me.)

Both Romney and Ryan have already confirmed in interviews that they see no need to share details of how his tax cuts would be paid for until after the election, when it all can be worked out with Congress. And when it comes to Romney’s vow to eliminate whole agencies and programs, Romney has freely admitted that he won’t specify which ones for the explicit reason that so doing would be politically problematic for him.

But now, in what appear to be strategic leaks designed to mollify Republicans worried about the campaign’s lack of specificity, Romney advisers are explicitly confirming that all of this is part of a grand strategy to only signal general direction to the American people. It’s a guiding idea that specifics are a political peril to be avoided. The campaign thinks sharing details about what he’d actually do as president would be politically suicidal. As Steve Benen asks: “what does it say about the merit of Romney’s policy agenda if voters are likely to recoil if they heard the whole truth?”

And this is coming after the campaign touted the selection of Paul Ryan as proof that the GOP ticket is deeply serious about policy and committed to making the tough decisions Democrats won’t.

WashPost

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1363 on: August 19, 2012, 01:09:54 PM »
Just fascinating. Hoya, this is your boy! He wont tell us anything about any policy and you actually think he is going to help change some tax loopholes that he has benefited from for years (and all his donors benefit from).

Expect taxes to go down and the deficit to go up.

This must be the most embarrassing Presidential campaign in American history. Too bad half the population is the most embarrassing in the Western world.
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Offline Canada Loves Anfield

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1364 on: August 19, 2012, 03:18:16 PM »
Ryan, Romney and the Veil of Opulence

By BENJAMIN HALE

More than 40 years ago the philosopher John Rawls, in his influential political work “A Theory of Justice,” implored the people of the world to shed themselves of their selfish predispositions and to assume, for the sake of argument, that they were ignorant. He imposed this unwelcome constraint not so that his readers — mostly intellectuals, but also students, politicians and policy makers — would find themselves in a position of moribund stupidity but rather so they could get a grip on fairness.

Rawls charged his readers to design a society from the ground up, from an original position, and he imposed the ignorance constraint so that readers would abandon any foreknowledge of their particular social status — their wealth, their health, their natural talents, their opportunities or any other goodies that the cosmos may have thrown their way. In doing so, he hoped to identify principles of justice that would best help individuals maximize their potential, fulfill their objectives (whatever they may happen to be) and live a good life. He called this presumption the “veil of ignorance.”

The idea behind the veil of ignorance is relatively simple: to force us to think outside of our parochial personal concerns in order that we consider others. What Rawls saw clearly is that it is not easy for us to put ourselves in the position of others. We tend to think about others always from our own personal vantage; we tend to equate another person’s predicament with our own. Imagining what it must be like to be poor, for instance, we import presumptions about available resources, talents and opportunities — encouraging, say, the homeless to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and to just get a job, any job, as if getting a job is as simple as filling out an application. Meanwhile, we give little thought to how challenging this can be for those who suffer from chronic illnesses or disabling conditions. What Rawls also saw clearly was that other classic principles of justice, like the golden rule or mutual benevolence, are subject to distortion precisely because we tend to do this.

Nowadays, the veil of ignorance is challenged by a powerful but ancient contender: the veil of opulence. While no serious political philosopher actually defends such a device — the term is my own — the veil of opulence runs thick in our political discourse. Where the veil of ignorance offers a test for fairness from an impersonal, universal point of view — “What system would I want if I had no idea who I was going to be, or what talents and resources I was going to have?” — the veil of opulence offers a test for fairness from the first-person, partial point of view: “What system would I want if I were so-and-so?” These two doctrines of fairness — the universal view and the first-person view — are both compelling in their own way, but only one of them offers moral clarity impartial enough to guide our policy decisions.

Those who don the veil of opulence may imagine themselves to be fantastically wealthy movie stars or extremely successful business entrepreneurs. They vote and set policies according to this fantasy. “If I were such and such a wealthy person,” they ask, “how would I feel about giving X percentage of my income, or Y real dollars per year, to pay for services that I will never see nor use?” We see this repeatedly in our tax policy discussions, and we have just seen the latest instance of it in the Tax Policy Center’s comparison of President Obama’s tax plan versus Mitt Romney’s tax plan.  “He’s asking you to pay more so that people like him can pay less,” Obama said last week, “so that people like me pay less.” Last Monday he drove the point even harder, saying that Romney’s plan is like “Robin Hood in reverse.” And certainly, Romney’s selection on Saturday of Paul Ryan as his running mate will keep this issue in the forefront of our political discourse.

Of course, the veil of opulence is not limited to tax policy. Supreme Court Justices Samuel Alito and Antonin Scalia advanced related logic in their  oral arguments on the Affordable Care Act in March.  “[T]he mandate is forcing these [young] people,” Justice Alito said, “to provide a huge subsidy to the insurance companies … to subsidize services that will be received by somebody else.” By suggesting in this way that the policy was unfair, Alito encouraged the court to assess the injustice themselves. “If you were healthy and young,” Justice Alito implied, “why should you be made to bear the burden of the sick and old?”

The answer to these questions, when posed in this way, is clear. It seems unfair, unjust, to be forced to pay so much more than someone of lesser means. We should all be free to use our money and our resources however we see fit. And so, the opulence argument for fairness gets off the ground.

It is one thing for the very well off to make these arguments. What is curious is that frequently the same people who pose these questions are not themselves wealthy, nor even particularly healthy. Instead, they ask these questions under the supposition that they are insisting upon fairness. But the veil of opulence operates only under the guise of fairness. It is rather a distortion of fairness, by virtue of the partiality that it smuggles in. It asks not whether a policy is fair given the huge range of advantages or hardships the universe might throw at a person but rather whether it is fair that a very fortunate person should shoulder the burdens of others. That is, the veil of opulence insists that people imagine that resources and opportunities and talents are freely available to all, that such goods are widely abundant, that there is no element of randomness or chance that may negatively impact those who struggle to succeed but sadly fail through no fault of their own. It blankets off the obstacles that impede the road to success. It turns a blind eye to the adversity that some people, let’s face it, are born into. By insisting that we consider public policy from the perspective of the most-advantaged, the veil of opulence obscures the vagaries of brute luck.

But wait, you may be thinking, what of merit? What of all those who have labored and toiled and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps to make their lives better for themselves and their families? This is an important question indeed. Many people work hard for their money and deserve to keep what they earn. An answer is offered by both doctrines of fairness.

The veil of opulence assumes that the playing field is level, that all gains are fairly gotten, that there is no cosmic adversity. In doing so, it is partial to the fortunate — for fortune here is entirely earned or deserved. The veil of ignorance, on the other hand, introduces the possibility that one might fall on hard luck or that one is not born into luck. It never once closes out the possibility that that same person might take steps to overcome that bad luck. In this respect, it is not partial to the fortunate but impartial to all. Some will win by merit, some will win by lottery. Others will lose by laziness, while still others will lose because the world has thrown them some unfathomably awful disease or some catastrophically terrible car accident. It is an illusion of prosperity to believe that each of us deserves everything we get.

If there’s one thing about fairness, it is fundamentally an impartial notion, an idea that restricts us from privileging one group over another. When asking about fairness, we cannot ask whether X policy is fair for me, or whether Y policy is fair for someone with a yacht and two vacation homes. We must ask whether Z policy is fair, full stop. What we must ask here is whether the policy could be applied to all; whether it is the sort of system with which we could live, if we were to end up in one of the many socioeconomic groupings that make up our diverse community, whether most-advantaged or least-advantaged, fortunate or unfortunate. This is why the veil of ignorance is a superior test for fairness over the veil of opulence. It tackles the universality of fairness without getting wrapped up in the particularities of personal interest. If you were to start this world anew, unaware of who you would turn out to be, what sort of die would you be willing to cast?

We already employ this veil of ignorance logic in a wide range of areas, many of which are not limited to politics. An obvious case is in the game of football. During draft season, the N.F.L. gives the losingest team the opportunity to take first pick at their player of choice. Just recently, the Indianapolis Colts, the worst team last year, selected as their new quarterback the aptly named Andrew Luck, arguably the most promising player in recent memory. In the interest of firming up the game, in the interest of being fair, the N.F.L. decided long ago to give the worst teams in football the best shot at improving their game. At the beginning of the season, nobody knows who is going to be the worst off, but they all agree to the draft rules.

As a result, football is better for it. It is both more exciting, because the teams are better matched, and it is fairer, because there is no tyranny of one or two successful franchises over others. It’s a game that even die-hard fans recognize as fair. It doesn’t inspire the same sort of grumbling that has so many baseball fans thumbing their noses at the New York Yankees. It is true that in some instances, such a policy may encourage some to game the system, but on the whole it is an important policy, and most teams continue to play to win.

As this election season wears on, we will likely be hearing a lot about fairness. Romney recently signaled as much. Obama has been doing so for months. Far from a mere rhetorical concern, our two presidential candidates are each representatives of one of these views.

The question of fairness has widespread application throughout our political discourse. It affects taxation, health care, education, social safety nets and so on. The veil of opulence would have us screen for fairness by asking what the most fortunate among us are willing to bear. The veil of ignorance would have us screen for fairness by asking what any of us would be willing to bear, if it were the case that we, or the ones we love, might be born into difficult circumstances or, despite our hard work, blindsided by misfortune. Society is in place to correct for the injustices of the universe, to ensure that our lives can run smoothly despite the stuff that is far out of our control: not to hand us what we need, but to give us the opportunity to pursue life, liberty and happiness. The veil of ignorance helps us see that. The veil of opulence keeps us in the dark.

Benjamin Hale is an assistant professor of philosophy and environmental studies at the University of Colorado, Boulder, and a co-editor of the journal Ethics, Policy & Environment.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/the-veil-of-opulence/?partner=rss&emc=rss
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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1365 on: August 19, 2012, 04:21:33 PM »
Ryan, Romney and the Veil of Opulence


We already employ this veil of ignorance logic in a wide range of areas, many of which are not limited to politics. An obvious case is in the game of football. During draft season, the N.F.L. gives the losingest team the opportunity to take first pick at their player of choice.

Heh. American English is funny.

Good article, though.

Offline litliper

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1366 on: August 19, 2012, 08:02:23 PM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/fdisTOKom5I?version=3" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/fdisTOKom5I?version=3</a>
"My country is the world, and my religion to do good." (Thomas Paine)

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1367 on: August 19, 2012, 08:14:12 PM »
Well done Todd. The Missourans will probably lap it up.

Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1368 on: August 19, 2012, 09:25:04 PM »
No, I don't think so. It's not even something you can apologize for because he meant what he said.

I don't know what the laws are in Missouri regarding replacing a nominee, but I imagine the national party is going to put pressure on him to withdraw.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1369 on: August 19, 2012, 09:38:32 PM »
Missouri Republicans voted for Santorum, who has pretty much the same positions. Ok, maybe not the self aborting bit.

I came across a funny piece earlier about how Democrats secretly voted for him in the primary because they think McCaskill has the best chance of beating him.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1370 on: August 19, 2012, 09:53:00 PM »
Here's Dave Mustaine from Megadeth's balanced view of Obama:

http://pitchfork.com/news/47525-megadeths-dave-mustaine-says-president-barack-obama-staged-recent-shootings-in-aurora-and-wisconsin/

and I thought Ted Nugent was mad!

Folks, I give you Hank Williams, Jr., reinforcing every country 'n' western stereotype you ever did hear.

"We've got a Muslim president who hates farming, hates the military, hates the U.S. and we hate him!"

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Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1371 on: August 19, 2012, 10:25:40 PM »
Missouri Republicans voted for Santorum, who has pretty much the same positions. Ok, maybe not the self aborting bit.

I came across a funny piece earlier about how Democrats secretly voted for him in the primary because they think McCaskill has the best chance of beating him.

The Santorum bit is a meaningless thing to bring up for a couple of reasons. Winning a nonbinding presidential primary != winning a statewide general election, and what Akin said isn't close to a position Santorum holds. He's saying that for the most part women who get raped don't get pregnant, so if a woman is pregnant and claims it is the result of a rape, she's probably a lying slut looking for an excuse to kill the kid. It's offensively stupid and offensively offensive.

And Democrats did more than secretly vote for him in the primary. Claire McCaskill, the Democratic senator, touted Akin in her ads as a true conservative, while Harry Reid's SuperPAC targeted the GOP businessman they didn't want to face in the general with negative ads. They got the nominee they wanted. Hopefully they don't get to keep him.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1372 on: August 20, 2012, 12:28:56 AM »
You're probably right. I'm inured to Republicans saying offensive things.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1373 on: August 20, 2012, 02:11:35 PM »
An Unserious Man

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: August 19, 2012

Mitt Romney’s choice of Paul Ryan as his running mate led to a wave of pundit accolades. Now, declared writer after writer, we’re going to have a real debate about the nation’s fiscal future. This was predictable: never mind the Tea Party, Mr. Ryan’s true constituency is the commentariat, which years ago decided that he was the Honest, Serious Conservative, whose proposals deserve respect even if you don’t like him.

 But he isn’t and they don’t. Ryanomics is and always has been a con game, although to be fair, it has become even more of a con since Mr. Ryan joined the ticket.

Let’s talk about what’s actually in the Ryan plan, and let’s distinguish in particular between actual, specific policy proposals and unsupported assertions. To focus things a bit more, let’s talk — as most budget discussions do — about what’s supposed to happen over the next 10 years.

On the tax side, Mr. Ryan proposes big cuts in tax rates on top income brackets and corporations. He has tried to dodge the normal process in which tax proposals are “scored” by independent auditors, but the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center has done the math, and the revenue loss from these cuts comes to $4.3 trillion over the next decade.

On the spending side, Mr. Ryan proposes huge cuts in Medicaid, turning it over to the states while sharply reducing funding relative to projections under current policy. That saves around $800 billion. He proposes similar harsh cuts in food stamps, saving a further $130 billion or so, plus a grab-bag of other cuts, such as reduced aid to college students. Let’s be generous and say that all these cuts would save $1 trillion.

On top of this, Mr. Ryan includes the $716 billion in Medicare savings that are part of Obamacare, even though he wants to scrap everything else in that act. Despite this, Mr. Ryan has now joined Mr. Romney in denouncing President Obama for “cutting Medicare”; more on that in a minute.

So if we add up Mr. Ryan’s specific proposals, we have $4.3 trillion in tax cuts, partially offset by around $1.7 trillion in spending cuts — with the tax cuts, surprise, disproportionately benefiting the top 1 percent, while the spending cuts would primarily come at the expense of low-income families. Over all, the effect would be to increase the deficit by around two and a half trillion dollars.

Yet Mr. Ryan claims to be a deficit hawk. What’s the basis for that claim?

Well, he says that he would offset his tax cuts by “base broadening,” eliminating enough tax deductions to make up the lost revenue. Which deductions would he eliminate? He refuses to say — and realistically, revenue gain on the scale he claims would be virtually impossible.

At the same time, he asserts that he would make huge further cuts in spending. What would he cut? He refuses to say.

What Mr. Ryan actually offers, then, are specific proposals that would sharply increase the deficit, plus an assertion that he has secret tax and spending plans that he refuses to share with us, but which will turn his overall plan into deficit reduction.

If this sounds like a joke, that’s because it is. Yet Mr. Ryan’s “plan” has been treated with great respect in Washington. He even received an award for fiscal responsibility from three of the leading deficit-scold pressure groups. What’s going on?

The answer, basically, is a triumph of style over substance. Over the longer term, the Ryan plan would end Medicare as we know it — and in Washington, “fiscal responsibility” is often equated with willingness to slash Medicare and Social Security, even if the purported savings would be used to cut taxes on the rich rather than to reduce deficits. Also, self-proclaimed centrists are always looking for conservatives they can praise to showcase their centrism, and Mr. Ryan has skillfully played into that weakness, talking a good game even if his numbers don’t add up.

The question now is whether Mr. Ryan’s undeserved reputation for honesty and fiscal responsibility can survive his participation in a deeply dishonest and irresponsible presidential campaign.

The first sign of trouble has already surfaced over the issue of Medicare. Mr. Romney, in an attempt to repeat the G.O.P.’s successful “death panels” strategy of the 2010 midterms, has been busily attacking the president for the same Medicare savings that are part of the Ryan plan. And Mr. Ryan’s response when this was pointed out was incredibly lame: he only included those cuts, he says, because the president put them “in the baseline,” whatever that means. Of course, whatever Mr. Ryan’s excuse, the fact is that without those savings his budget becomes even more of a plan to increase, not reduce, the deficit.

So will the choice of Mr. Ryan mean a serious campaign? No, because Mr. Ryan isn’t a serious man — he just plays one on TV.

Noo Yawk Times

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1374 on: August 20, 2012, 02:22:47 PM »
So that's Todd Akin and Paul Ryan. Hey, I wonder if they've ever partnered up for something? Oh...

How Todd Akin And Paul Ryan Partnered To Redefine Rape

By Ian Millhiser on Aug 19, 2012

Earlier today, Missouri U.S. Senate candidate Rep. Todd Akin (R-MO) claimed that “legitimate rape” does not often lead to pregnancy because “the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” This is not the first time the biologically challenged senate candidate tried to minimize the impact of rape. Last year, Akin joined with GOP vice presidential candidate Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) as two of the original co-sponsors of the “No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act,” a bill which, among other things, introduced the country to the bizarre term “forcible rape.”

Federal law prevents federal Medicaid funds and similar programs from paying for abortions. Yet the law also contains an exception for women who are raped. The bill Akin and Ryan cosponsored would have narrowed this exception, providing that only pregnancies arising from “forcible rape” may be terminated. Because the primary target of Akin and Ryan’s effort are Medicaid recipients — patients who are unlikely to be able to afford an abortion absent Medicaid funding — the likely impact of this bill would have been forcing many rape survivors to carry their rapist’s baby to term. Michelle Goldberg explains who Akin and Ryan would likely target:

    Under H.R. 3, only victims of “forcible rape” would qualify for federally funded abortions. Victims of statutory rape—say, a 13-year-old girl impregnated by a 30-year-old man—would be on their own. So would victims of incest if they’re over 18. And while “forcible rape” isn’t defined in the criminal code, the addition of the adjective seems certain to exclude acts of rape that don’t involve overt violence—say, cases where a woman is drugged or has a limited mental capacity. “It’s basically putting more restrictions on what was defined historically as rape,” says Keenan.

Although a version of this bill passed the GOP-controlled House, the “forcible rape” language was eventually removed due to widespread public outcry. Paul Ryan, however, believes that the “forcible rape” language does not actually go far enough to force women to carry their rapist’s baby. Ryan believes that abortion should be illegal in all cases except for “cases in which a doctor deems an abortion necessary to save the mother’s life.” So rape survivors are out of luck.

And, of course, as we learned today, Akin isn’t even sure that “legitimate” rape survivors can get pregnant in the first place.

Update

The Romney-Ryan campaign just released a statement distancing itself from the Akin-Ryan position on abortion in the case of rape: “Gov. Romney and Cong. Ryan disagree with Mr. Akin’s statement, and a Romney-Ryan administration would not oppose abortion in instances of rape.”

source

So Ryan has passed a key test for being Romney's running mate - the ability to distance oneself from one's prior self.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1375 on: August 20, 2012, 02:33:23 PM »
Republicans fight for the rights of the unborn foetus! Then uh, forget about them when they grow up, go to school and try to get a job.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1376 on: August 20, 2012, 02:35:34 PM »
Republicans fight for the rights of the unborn foetus! Then uh, forget about them when they grow up, go to school and try to get a job, get sick, are raped, choose a different religion, turn out gay, vote Democrat....

The list goes on....

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1377 on: August 20, 2012, 02:41:59 PM »
An Unserious Man

Hoya - please disprove!

And its ok if I have to wait til 3 am with you half a bottle down in Bourbon.  ;)
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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1378 on: August 20, 2012, 04:43:01 PM »
The lovely and talented El Campeador, formerly of these parts, points out that Republican lawmakers have held decidedly odd views about rape pregnancy for quite a while now...

Lawmaker Says Rape Can't Cause Pregnancy
Associated Press
Published 4:00 a.m., Friday, April 21, 1995

Women do not get pregnant when raped because "the juices don't flow, the body functions don't work" during an attack, a state lawmaker said yesterday.

Republican Representative Henry Aldridge made the remarks to the House Appropriations Committee as it debated a proposal to eliminate a state abortion fund for poor women.

"The facts show that people who are raped -- who are truly raped -- the juices don't flow, the body functions don't work and they don't get pregnant," said Aldridge, a 71-year-old periodontist. "Medical authorities agree that this is a rarity, if ever."

Aldridge's comments outraged women's advocates and some legislators from both parties.

source

In fact, studies show rapes cause more pregnancies, not less.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1379 on: August 20, 2012, 06:44:01 PM »
After the Bush years, Republicans seem determined to live up to every stereotype about them.


I mean, the best they can field for 2012 is a tax-dodging trust fund kid. The rest are pro-corporatist, anti-woman, anti-gay, pro-security state and pro-war.

Offline litliper

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1380 on: August 20, 2012, 07:02:50 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/17/mitt-romney-tax-returns-voter-fraud-theory?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Mitt Romney's tax returns: the 'voter fraud' theory
MS Bellows Jr

Mitt Romney campaigning in Greer, South Carolina. The Obama campaign has offered an amnesty on calls for further tax disclosures, if he releases three years of returns.

Friday 17 August 2012
There has been much speculation about why Romney refuses to disclose earlier tax returns. Could it be as simple as an address?

Friday's exchange of letters between the election campaigns of Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, in which Romney rejected Obama's offer to drop the tax return issue if Romney will produce just three more years' records, has moved the long-simmering brouhaha over Romney's tax returns back to the front media burner. Romney has only produced two tax returns so far. That's many fewer than any presidential candidate has disclosed in decades, setting up the hearsay accusation disseminated joyfully by Harry Reid (who may or may not actually believe it) that Romney is afraid to tell voters that he sometimes pays no taxes at all. (Romney has answered that, saying he has never paid less than 13% in taxes on his income.)

Meanwhile, Romney appears to have escaped relatively unsinged from the apparently unrelated revelation that he may have committed voter fraud in January 2010, when – despite not owning a house in Massachusetts and having given every appearance of having moved to California – he registered and voted in the Massachusetts special election to replace the deceased Senator Ted Kennedy. Given the GOP's ongoing use of the "voter fraud" fable to justify modern Jim Crow laws and its highly-publicized persecution of the voter registration group Acorn, an actual case of felony voter fraud committed by the Republican nominee could have been a big story – but Romney was able to tamp down the flames by claiming, not very credibly but also not disprovably, that he and Ann actually were living in their son Tagg's Belmont, Massachusetts basement in 2010. Without proof that Romney lied about where he lived, there's no felony – and no big national story.

Many (many, many, many, many, many) theories have been advanced to explain why Romney keeps refusing to produce any returns prior to 2010, ranging from "voters might learn he's wealthy" (which voters already know) to "he underpaid his church tithe" (doubtful).

None of them is really satisfactory, because none of them posits Romney concealing any facts more harmful than the blowback he is getting for not producing more returns. The problem may be that all of the prominent theories (with a couple of under-noticed exceptions) assume Romney is trying to conceal facts about his finances. Like the purloined letter pinned prominently in plain sight, what Romney's really hiding might be something more mundane: the home address written on the top of the tax form. That address that might reveal a connection between the "tax returns" brouhaha and the "voter fraud" fizzle – which may be the strongest explanation of all. Here's why.

Tax returns require taxpayers to state their residence address, and the Romney returns already produced, although partially redacted, state clearly that they lived in "Belmont, MA 02478" in 2012 (tax year 2011) (pdf) and 2011 (tax year 2010) (pdf):

But the Romneys, arbitrarily, refuse to disclose a copy of the returns they filed in 2010 or 2009 (for tax years 2009 and 2008) – which, perhaps not coincidentally, bracket the time period when Romney allegedly committed fraud by voting in Massachusetts when he actually resided in California. So here's the question: did Romney put his son's basement's address on the returns he filed in 2009 and 2010? Or did he truthfully use his real (non-Massachusetts) address, thus implicating himself in voter fraud?

This may seem like overmeticulous wonkishness, but the address given on tax returns is a big deal when it comes to proving voter fraud. As Hans von Spakovsky (senior legal fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, former Federal Election Commission member, and former DOJ voting-issue attorney, and himself an advocate of the GOP's restrictive voter ID requirements) explained to the Daily Caller:

"Election officials will also look at tax returns as crucial evidence in residency disputes. Where an individual declares himself to be a resident for tax purposes, thus subjecting himself to applicable state income taxes, is usually decisive on this issue."

With that in mind, let's run through the dates, keeping in mind that tax returns are filed the year after the tax year in question (and that Romney's returns, which are exceptionally complicated, likely are filed toward the end of that year: that is, his 2010 return was filed in October 2011):

• In April 2009, Romney sold his longtime Massachusetts home at 171 Marsh Street and appeared to move to La Jolla, California. He did not own a home in Massachusetts again until July 2010. (All of the Massachusetts addresses discussed here end with "Belmont, MA 02478", though one might amuse oneself surmising which address is underneath the Sharpie by the length of the redaction.)

• Sometime in 2009, probably late in the year, Romney filed his 2008 tax return, identifying the address where he lived at the time of filing. He has refused to disclose a copy of that return.

• Sometime in or shortly before January 2010 – that is, not long after he filed his 2008 return – Romney registered to vote in Massachusetts, stating on his voter registration form that he lived in his son Tagg's basement at 18 Greensbrook Way. In January 2010, Romney voted in Massachusetts' special election, which would be a felony if he was not a Massachusetts resident at the time.

• In July 2010, Romney once again became a Massachusetts property owner when he bought a new townhouse at 10 S Cottage Road Unit 3. However, as the owner of several other houses, he still could have resided elsewhere for voter registration purposes.

• Sometime (probably late) in 2010, Romney filed his 2009 tax return. If that return was filed before July and he really was living in Tagg's basement, it should give a Belmont address. If it was filed after July, and Romney truly considered Massachusetts his home, it should give the Cottage Road address. He has refused to disclose a copy of that return.

• On 15 October 2011, Romney's accountant filed his 2010 return, giving a redacted Belmont address (presumably the Cottage Road townhouse) as his residence.

If Romney's 2008 return (filed in 2009, shortly before the January 2010 special election) didn't give Tagg's basement as his address, then Romney clearly didn't consider Massachusetts his home in that year. If Romney's 2009 return (filed in 2010) gives a non-Massachusetts address, despite the fact that he claimed to be a Massachusetts resident earlier that year and had bought a house in Massachusetts in July, then Romney clearly didn't consider Massachusetts his home in that year either. If Democrats hit the daily double – in other words, if Romney declared La Jolla, California to be his home in both years – then Massachusetts prosecutors likely will have no choice but to take a hard second look at their ex-governor. (The Obama campaign's new focus on obtaining only three more years' returns – 2007, 2008 and 2009 – may suggest they're focusing in on this possibility as well.)

A felony voter fraud charge could expose Romney to fines and/or imprisonment, jeopardize Romney's standing with the Michigan State Bar, and – worst of all, in the political sense – would be a mortal embarrassment on the campaign trail, both to himself and to downticket Republicans (especially Republican Senator Scott Brown of Massachusetts, who won the special election in question but is locked in a tight, highly-publicized race against the popular Elizabeth Warren to retain his seat).

So far, none of the reasons advanced for Romney's refusal to produce tax returns seems good enough to justify the political heat his campaign is taking. But if those returns give a non-Massachusetts address, then Romney can't afford to produce them, no matter how much political fallout his campaign faces as a result. All of this is speculation, of course, though it seems at least as plausible as Harry Reid's suggestion that Romney paid no taxes before 2011, but there's only one way it can be resolved: by Mitt Romney releasing those tax returns.
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Offline Immoral King Brian Blessed

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1381 on: August 21, 2012, 12:33:05 AM »
Well done Mr. Akin, you win the Moronic Republican of the Week Award.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1382 on: August 21, 2012, 12:39:56 AM »
Michele hasn't been invited to the Prom...

WASHINGTON — Rep. Michele Bachmann’s ability to amass millions in campaign cash on the strength of legions of small-contribution donors shows she has a substantial fan base across the country.

But those supporters won’t get to hear or see her speak on national television during the Republican National Convention set to start Aug. 27 in Tampa — at least not from the convention floor podium.

That’s because Bachmann, R-Stillwater, a contender for the 2012 GOP presidential nomination and a tea party favorite, is not among the 22 Republican “headliners” selected so far to address the gathering in support of the Mitt Romney-Paul Ryan ticket.

Instead, Bachmann will lend her conservative voice at off-site events, such as a “unity rally” she and Atlanta businessman Herman Cain, another one-time presidential contender, are expected to participate in on the eve of the convention. The event is being held at a church outside of town.

source


Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1383 on: August 21, 2012, 02:44:58 AM »
Hoya - please disprove!

And its ok if I have to wait til 3 am with you half a bottle down in Bourbon.  ;)

There are two separate issues that Krugman sort of combines into one. One is his short term budget stuff, the other the long term entitlement reform stuff.

His short term budget plan isn't serious about cutting the deficit or helping economic growth if he doesn't follow through on the revenue neutral part of the plan. Ryan hasn't laid out all of the tax credits/deductions he's planning on cutting because they'd make for nice attack ad fodder whether or not the plan ever gets legislated. The balance between serious and not leading your party to electoral Armageddon for no reason is an important one to strike.

Ryan's long term plan for Medicare goes a long way in fixing the country's budget issues through the first half of the 21st century - Ryan Budget, Long Term from the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an independent, non-partisan public policy group. It's a serious plan. Krugman just doesn't like it.

Offline RhodyRoadie

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1384 on: August 21, 2012, 03:20:27 AM »

Ryan's long term plan for Medicare goes a long way in fixing the country's budget issues through the first half of the 21st century - Ryan Budget, Long Term from the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an independent, non-partisan public policy group. It's a serious plan. Krugman just doesn't like it.

From the link "Chairman Ryan’s reforms would establish a competitive bidding process for Medicare, with federal premium payments fixed at growth rates slower than projected for national health spending (GDP plus 0.5 percent per beneficiary)."

This sounds an awful lot like Romney-care...but I thought there budget ideas were different?

Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1385 on: August 21, 2012, 04:29:21 AM »
Medicare is only for people 65+ (and that wouldn't kick in for current beneficiaries or anyone 55 or older)

Offline Immoral King Brian Blessed

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1386 on: August 21, 2012, 05:00:31 AM »
These are lame duck noms, as Kerry was, as was McCain. The real battle is 2016. You heard it hear first.

Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1387 on: August 21, 2012, 05:10:36 AM »
Kerry came within one state of winning the presidency

Offline Noelle

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1388 on: August 21, 2012, 06:42:37 AM »
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contriball.php?cycle=2012

Everyone take a minute to scroll down and check out who Huntsman's top two contributors were.

That is all.

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1389 on: August 21, 2012, 07:55:03 AM »
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contriball.php?cycle=2012

Everyone take a minute to scroll down and check out who Huntsman's top two contributors were.

That is all.

That is fantastic. Ron Paul gets a hat-trick from all the armed services I see. Doesn't he want to do away with national defense and privatise them?
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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1390 on: August 21, 2012, 08:25:50 AM »
That is fantastic. Ron Paul gets a hat-trick from all the armed services I see. Doesn't he want to do away with national defense and privatise them?

No. He proposes massively cutting unnecessary military spending and just wants to stop sending servicemen and women to their deaths in needless wars that are not about protecting Americans but about projecting power and interfering in the affairs of other nations.  He, and his supporters, no longer have a place in the GOP.
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Offline AnyGivenSunday

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1391 on: August 21, 2012, 08:31:41 AM »
Just seen a mate of mine share this on facebook:

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence". Christopher Hitchens

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1392 on: August 21, 2012, 08:39:06 AM »
No. He proposes massively cutting unnecessary military spending and just wants to stop sending servicemen and women to their deaths in needless wars that are not about protecting Americans but about projecting power and interfering in the affairs of other nations.  He, and his supporters, no longer have a place in the GOP.

Right, no wonder he has such strong support from them. And the DoD too.

Not sure isolationism is workable today though. I mean, if it didn't work for Woodrow Wilson...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 08:45:55 AM by Finn Solomon »
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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1393 on: August 21, 2012, 08:57:50 AM »
Right, no wonder he has such strong support from them. And the DoD too.

Not sure isolationism is workable today though. I mean, if it didn't work for Woodrow Wilson...

It is not isolationism.

And how was Wilson isolationist? Even whilst keeping the US out of the war, he was trying, unsuccessfully, to mediate peace agreements between the fighting powers - just because he didn't send US soldiers into the Somme doesn't make him an isolationist.  He was a key figure at the Treaty of Versailles and instrumental in setting up the League of Nations.
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1394 on: August 21, 2012, 09:03:28 AM »
It is not isolationism.

And how was Wilson isolationist? Even whilst keeping the US out of the war, he was trying, unsuccessfully, to mediate peace agreements between the fighting powers - just because he didn't send US soldiers into the Somme doesn't make him an isolationist.  He was a key figure at the Treaty of Versailles and instrumental in setting up the League of Nations.

His first platform I mean. But even he realised the US couldn't remain isolationist forever. What's the main difference between what Ron Paul wants to do and what is essentially isolationism?
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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1395 on: August 21, 2012, 09:08:27 AM »
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contriball.php?cycle=2012

Everyone take a minute to scroll down and check out who Huntsman's top two contributors were.

That is all.

Obama's top contributers are high tech companies and educational institutions. Romney's are investement bankers. Says is all.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1396 on: August 21, 2012, 09:13:10 AM »
His first platform I mean. But even he realised the US couldn't remain isolationist forever. What's the main difference between what Ron Paul wants to do and what is essentially isolationism?

Isolationism means just that, shutting your country off from the outside world, a la North Korea.

Non-interventionism means not invading countries or trying to bully the world, but still trading and engaging with the world diplomatically, culturally etc.  It is sad that a policy of not invading countries half-way around the world is deemed to be isolationist.

In his Ron Paul's own words...

"An isolationist is a protectionist that builds walls around their country, they don’t like the trade, they don’t like to travel about the world, and they like to put sanctions on different countries. So some of the people who call me that, are actually much more in favor of sanctions and limited trade, they’re the ones who don’t want to trade with Cuba and they want to put sanctions on anybody who blinks their eye at them. And yet, the opposite is what we believe in, we believe Nixon did the right thing by opening up trade doors with China, because that is when we quit killing each other and we are more at peace, which we better be, because they have become our banker. So non-intervention is quite a bit different since what the founders advised was to get along with people, trade with people, and to practice diplomacy, rather than having this militancy of telling people what to do and how to run the world and building walls around our own country. That is isolationism, it’s a far cry from what we believe in."
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Offline Gene

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1397 on: August 21, 2012, 12:03:29 PM »
Obama's top contributers are high tech companies and educational institutions. Romney's are investement bankers. Says is all.

Says socialism to me.
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Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1398 on: August 21, 2012, 01:11:40 PM »
Says socialism to me.

Not socialism, communism!
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Offline evie

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Re: US Presidential Election 2012: Obama V Romney
« Reply #1399 on: August 21, 2012, 01:51:34 PM »
"Just trust me" - campaign?

:lmao
I mean seriously how the fuck does he do it? How is he so fucking brilliant that his brilliance makes everyone play better?